Beth 1:11

Well, hey everyone, this is Beth. And I'm Jeff. And this is your any Graham coach, the podcast. And we're here to help people to understand themselves with astonishing clarity so they can break free from self-condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom in

Jeff 1:28

Christ. Well, Beth, we're gonna talk about our work together as a couple today. Yes. Uh, which is of. A special topic. We've run across other couples that do work together and build businesses together and coach together. Yeah. And we today have a couple of couples, uh, that have done the same and talk about this part of our life where we actually get to do this together. And so I know that for many couples, like they may desire to do it. Some of you may be like, that would never happen. I would never want, couldn't handle it. And to be quite honest with you, there probably sitting there days,

Beth 2:03

Beth and I, yes, there are some days Yes. Because we are different. Right. But all in

Jeff 2:08

all we, but all in all we love it. Yeah. I remember even in ministry days, it was Team McCord. It was, we were always together and it's been a gift of our, the marriage that we have and we get to the privilege of stewarding with others. Mm-hmm. So I wanna welcome, uh, on the podcast, the Gormans and the Savages. So Mark and Jill Savage, welcome.

Meet the Savages and Gormans

Jeff 2:28

Why don't you introduce yourself and, uh, tell our audience what it is you do.

Jill 2:32

Thanks. Well, um, we, uh, are Mark and Jill Savage. We live in normal Illinois, which, um, is mm-hmm. Where you guys lived at one point in time as well. Uh, what we like to say is that we help people figure out the normal stuff of marriage and, um, that they really, we want them to understand the, the challenges that they face, um, the, uh, good parts that they enjoy, um, but also learn how to navigate all of that and, and kind of normalize, um, what it takes to be married and to be intent about that. So, um, we're the authors of no more perfect marriages and, uh, we have a lot of online courses. And then probably more than anything, and we'll talk about it today, we love our coaching. Mm-hmm.

Mark 3:23

That we do. Yeah.

Jeff 3:24

Yes. That's fun. Well, and next up is Greg and Julie Gorman. Gorman's. Welcome to the podcast.

Julie 3:31

Hey, it's such an honor to be here. I love seeing all these face here. Good

Jeff 3:35

you tell folks, uh, what it is that you do?

Julie 3:38

Yeah. Well, we are also marriage coaches and we've written several books. Um, but several years ago we created a proprietary coaching process and we've been working with couples for several years. Julie and I have always worked together, and so, uh, it's, we've been doing marriage ministry long before we should have been doing marriage

Greg 3:56

ministry. Ain't that

Jill 3:59

I think that probably applies to

Mark 4:00

all of

Beth 4:01

Oh, yeah.

Jeff 4:02

Yeah. If you think you're ready, you waited too

Beth 4:04

long. It's definitely, it is definitely on the job training.

Jeff 4:11

Oh, man. That is so funny. Well, and, and what's the, what's the name of the ministry that you guys run?

Julie 4:17

Married for a purpose.

Jeff 4:19

Married For A Purpose. That's awesome. And you guys are located

Julie 4:23

We're in South Florida. We're on the east coast in a little town called Ho Sound,

Jeff 4:27

nice. Hope, sound well,

Julie 4:29

right near the water. It's,

Jeff 4:30

it doesn't sound as adventurous as normal.

Beth 4:34

Illinois.

Julie 4:38

I'm thinking to be born in normal Illinois or something.

Beth 4:42

Our son was born in normal. He was.

Jeff 4:44

He was. That's right. Yes. We were there for two years on staff with the navigators, doing campus ministry at Illinois State University, and then went back for nine years

Beth 4:52

as I grew up in Kansas City and just outside of Kansas City is peculiar Missouri. So I always tell people, well, at least it's more normal than peculiar. So, you know, you got, we've got that going for us. That's super fun.

Jeff 5:03

Well, but in, in regards to our story, um, when do you think, when do you start to realize like, wow, like, uh, there's something about Jeff and Beth together that made us unique from other couples?

Beth 5:19

I think it was really right from the beginning. I think we shared passion for serving the Lord first and foremost. Um, seen all that he has done for us individually. Um, and then, you know, us as, you know, a human race, like what Christ had done, had done, and just our passion for others to know about that individually. But then seeing, oh wait, we both had the same passion. So collectively, I

Jeff 5:45

mean, it was part of our dating process when we were thinking about getting married. Now, please understand, this was, we were 18 and 19 years old.

Beth 5:52

Exactly. But we didn't really know. We got

Jeff 5:54

married at 20, what we were doing. Um, but even when we decided, so I was a football player on scholarship and we decided, you know what? I'm gonna graduate a year early rather than, well, no, you gotta go

Beth 6:05

before that. You're skipping something important. What did I skip,

Jeff 6:09

fca? Uh, so I started, uh, a group, a chapter. A fellowship. A chapter, a Fellowship of Christian athletes at the University of Kansas.

Beth 6:19

Yeah. And you put together a fundraiser, which.

Jeff 6:22

Yeah. I mean, that was really cool. But I, I, I guess what you're saying, like, well, I'm just, you knew that I was going down this path of ministry. Yeah, yeah.

Beth 6:30

I, I could see that you, well, we knew that you wanted to be a pastor, but you in ministry as a whole, being a speaker, a thought leader like that was just because

Jeff 6:39

place kickers at very poor football colleges have a lot to say about Jesus.

Beth 6:46

No, you guys were ranked number nine in 1995. There was, there was one year we went to the Alo Hubble, thank you very much. Yes.

Jeff 6:51

That was awesome. And, and you guys will laugh at this, but I don't know if you knew this, but you're talking to a Hall of Fame athlete. Yes. Um,

Mark 6:57

wow. Wow.

Jeff 6:58

am.

Beth 6:59

Yes. At, for those that know, uh, the University of Kansas, the basketball team is really where it's at. Right. At Allen Field House, which is where their basketball is located. They have a whole like museum. It's just amazing. Well, we were there this last fall watching a basketball game with our son Nate, and it was so fun. Like it's literally the best place to watch a basketball game. Well, we're going through the, the museum and you know, you, you see like the Jayhawks National Championship trophy, which is just stellar, but there's all these other things with the different, um, sports. Well, you see this Wall of fame, wilt Chamberlain. Yeah.

Jeff 7:37

Wilt Chamberlain. Gail Sayers. Yeah. Like these are James Naysmith who the inventor of basketball Yeah.

Beth 7:42

Is on this wall. They're on this wall. So I'm like walking down Jeff somewhere, somewhere. Nate's somewhere and I'm walking down the wall and I was like, wait a second. That's the 1995 Aloha Bowl championship team. That's Jeff's team. And then I look and I'm like, that's Jeff in this picture. And I called Nate over and I'm like, your dad is on this wall. And he was like, what? And we are just like, holy cow, Jeff is on such respect for my athletics. I know. Now it's like, like, we're so surprised. How did this happen? Your dad on this ball. Okay. Hey, if we're on his ku, footballs typically

Jeff 8:21

not gonna be like Alabama where they win a bowl game every year. If you win a bowl game at ku, you're on the wall. You're on the wall. Like you're special. all that to say, Beth, like we, we wanted to go on staff with the navigators as a couple right after college. Right? And so we, but we

Beth 8:38

saw, uh, what I, the whole point of that was I saw how through doing the F C A and putting together the fundraiser and all that stuff, that, that kind of pre-work mm-hmm. Was, oh wait, there's something here. And so when you wanted to go into ministry, I could see one, your leadership, um, and my desire to come alongside and support.

Jeff 9:01

I mean, you had been going on, uh, what's now called crew. You had done a summer project, right. You were discipling some women. I mean, you even had a desire to influence other people. Right. And had a desire for that navigators was gonna be expression and throughout all of our

Beth 9:15

campus ministries. Yeah. So we kind of, we saw all of that kind of panning out. So we, we, we felt God was leading us in that

Jeff 9:21

direction. Yeah. Well, okay, savages,

How they started coaching

Jeff 9:23

let's talk with you. Tell us about, tell us your origin story. Like when did you start to realize, like you want to do, like you're seeing the giftedness to be able to coach and minister together, because that's not always been the case if I'm un, if I understand it right. But at, at some point you realize, oh, we can do this together.

Mark 9:42

Right. Yeah. I, I would say that, uh, Jill and I spent many years, uh, kind of doing our own individual thing in, uh, ministry. And, uh, and then if you take the, the Savage Way and follow Mark Savage, you blow your life up by having an affair and, uh, make a mess of

Jill 10:05

everything, which we wouldn't a advise no taking that route at all

Jeff 10:09

Yeah. I, I haven't done that. Yeah. Um, there's a lot of other things I've done to blow up our marriage.

Ep. 174 processed 10:14

That's

Beth 10:14

good advice. Good advice.

Mark 10:16

Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't blow up your

Jill 10:18

marriage that way. But I would say even before we had our crisis, I remember you, I mean, you were, um, a marriage and family pastor and you asked me if I would teach a marriage seminar with you. Mm-hmm. And we did that for several years, right. Um,

Mark 10:35

before we created a, a mentoring course mm-hmm. And

Jill 10:39

way back for our church. Yeah. And then, but then we church planted and really kind of were doing ministry on our own. Like, um, you were really involved in the church. I was leading a nonprofit, um, that had become a global ministry. And so we kind of got isolated in ministry, and then when things crashed, then that's when. Of course we, at that point, we're not thinking ministry. We are just, our head is just barely above water and um, And when Mark makes his u-turn and, uh, recommits to our marriage, I mean, it takes us years to finish the healing process mm-hmm. Of that. Um, but then several years after we were healed, we started sharing our story more openly. And in doing so, it just really opened up marriage ministry and we were, uh, start, it started with emails from people that would hear our story and we would encourage them through emails. And then before you know it, uh, people were asking if they could meet with us. And so we're starting to do that more. And yeah. And then, uh, I mean we were doing that on top of, mark at that point was running a construction business. I was still running the nonprofit. I resigned from leading the nonprofit and he began the process of closing down his construction business. And until we could begin to do coaching

Mark 12:13

full-time, right.

Beth 12:14

Yeah.

Jeff 12:15

No, I mean that's really, I just noticed something. So if you're watching this on YouTube, and you'll see that we all have our names in the name of the ministries that we run on our video. Mm-hmm. And, uh, Beth did not put in, uh, Beth and Jeff mcc.

Beth 12:36

It just says Beth, as we're talking about coaching together. That's hilarious. I, which.

Jeff 12:42

Oh. Which, well, what, which is a part of this whole conversation because Yes, it is. And, and I think this, uh, Mark May share this and I, I don't know particularly for the Gormans, but like, people know Beth, they don't really know me,

Mark 12:54

Right.

Jeff 12:55

and that was probably true of the Savages.

Jill 12:57

Oh my gosh.

Mark 12:58

And we used to, that was a huge issue. And it's part

Jill 13:02

of what blew up our marriage Yeah. Was jealousy.

Mark 13:06

Jill was like, uh, People, they like both of us. I said, no, Jill, they love you. They like the idea of me. And we

Jill 13:16

were, he used to say that all the time. And one time we were literally driving to a speaking engagement

Mark 13:22

where we both were

Jill 13:23

speaking, yes. Where we both were speaking and we're having this same conversation and we pull in to the parking lot of the church and on the sign it says, this church welcomes Jill Savage.

Greg 13:37

Oh

Mark 13:38

There was no Mark Savage in fine print. It was nowhere to be found. And I

Jeff 13:45

we did a, we did a pilot event for our, uh, becoming Us Live event, and there was a line of people wanting to talk to us after, I'm sorry, there was a line of people wanting to talk and I would go down there and try to talk and like, I just realized, like, I even asked the couple like, are you waiting here to talk to Beth? And they're like, yes, we are. Like, I, I am no longer Pastor Jeff. I am now Beth's husband.

Mark 14:13

Right.

Jeff 14:13

Um,

Julie 14:14

wow.

Jeff 14:15

well, Gorman's, tell us how, how did things begin for you? When did you start to realize, hey, we like our marriage there, there's something about it that we want to go about life together and serve people.

Julie 14:29

Well, you know, ours is a little bit different in that way, in that we really were in marriage ministry as soon as we got married. Julie made a comment earlier, you know, that, that, you know, we were in marriage ministry long before we should have been. Uh, we would've a knockdown, drag out fight on the way to church, you know, and tears still trying to dry our eyes, you know, and get up, teach a class, right? We kinda, we kinda hatched that way, but I, I think one of the things that, you know, when, when our pastor asked us if, if we would lead a small marriage group, we'd been married for almost two years and, um, it was actually on a Sunday morning, so it was a, a Sunday morning church class for young marriage. Supposed to be for young marriage, but we had really old people and they're like, they were 50 years old. Like

Greg 15:24

they.

Beth 15:24

Oh yeah.

Jeff 15:25

And like you had a lot to offer those people who had been married for 30, 40, 50 years.

Julie 15:32

Um, you know, but the, what Greg was alluding to, we made this deal with one another that we would always do life in ministry authentically

Beth 15:41

Mm.

Mark 15:42

Mm-hmm.

Julie 15:43

of that. I think we were attracting not just the young marriage, but all married people because they were like, okay, well we're not quite as jacked up as these people we might have.

Beth 15:52

Yeah.

Julie 15:53

I think it's kinda like the savage, I think, you know, what they were talking about, sharing openly about their struggles. Um, I think that that's our secret sauce anyway, has been very authentic about our failures. And the things that we've struggled with because we have always felt like, you know, everybody else isru struggling with the same stuff, you know, they're just trying to keep it quiet. So let's just put ours out there and, uh, give 'em some hope. But we didn't start doing it professionally until several years later. We were both, you know, working different careers and, and I think probably about, I was always his right hand though. Like we, we did all of our careers together. There was only a small period of time that we actually weren't doing ministry together. And that's when I was leading a team of women in ministry. He kind of stepped into corporate America and it was, uh, probably about seven. Not even that was it, seven years of that, four years of that something anywhere. Um, anyways, he at, at one point just felt compelled. He was like, I, I really feel like we're supposed to do life and ministry. Well, I was doing together again, corporate speaking Yeah. And corporate executive coaching at that point. Yeah. And was doing well. But man, I missed. I miss that team dynamic of having Julie, uh, with me because we do operate so well together. And, um, yeah, so I, I, I started praying about it and I asked Julie, I said, you know, would you, would you, I tried to get her into my world first because again, I really wanted to be in the corporate. And, uh, yeah, like that she was not having it. You know, it has a

Beth 17:28

Wow.

Julie 17:29

time. And so, but as time evolved, you know, we really began to evaluate where the fruit in our life had come from. And for whatever reason, there has been a, i I would call it, you know, not to be too overly christianese, but kind of an anointing, uh, like a special secret sauce between the two of us that people recognized our marriage as being something special, even in all the hair, teeth and eyeballs that would happen in our marriage. You know, when things were tough. Um, It seemed to give people hope and they gravitated. So we decided about 15 years ago to make it actually our profession. We've ran businesses on the side together, but this has been our primary gig for the local business. I will say though, there's a common thread here and there, there's that thing of competition and comparisons that it can really be detrimental to a coaching relationship, marriage relationship, uh, that we all shared that common thread where it seems as though other people were trying to pin our gifts against one another. And so a little bit of like what you were saying, mark and Jill, where it was like people were recognizing because I had been in women's ministry, there was, um, a familiarity there, a, a natural already lead in publishers and, and different church organizations. And I remember it was a little bit difficult for a while because like, hi Julie, you know, and it

Beth 18:54

Yeah, sure.

Julie 18:55

You please just highlight him cuz I don't here.

Beth 18:58

right. Yes.

Jeff 19:00

Yeah. Well, and and that's a great segue into the next topic, and the idea is that, um, it, it's not always easy.

Struggles of coaching together

Jeff 19:10

Coaching and doing work together, uh, about what comes to mind for you when you think about where we, we get mixed up and disorganized internally and trip up over one another?

Beth 19:24

I would say it's when we have different ideas of maybe what we should be doing, where we should take the company. Maybe vision implementation, because I want everything easy and I don't wanna upset you, and I just, I'm like, I'll acquiesce a lot and then you're not even asking for it. I just things smooth and simple, which that actually creates the problem and the dynamic, but I'm hoping like, okay, sure, yeah, we'll go that direction, but deep down I might not want to. And that creates a dynamic. Yeah. A

Jeff 20:01

pull. And, and Beth and I actually, and we have. Different interests. I mean, the, the Beth is the Enneagram expert in our marriage now. And, and I've read, and I, I know a lot about the Enneagram, right? But my reading was more pastoral counseling and theology. And that's

Beth 20:20

not, I mean, I know a lot of that, but I, that's not my training.

Jeff 20:24

And so at, at times, whenever I'm might suggest something that would be a different way of looking at an Enneagram concept, uh, Beth would be like, no, that's not really Enneagram talk. And I'm like, yeah, but it, it's good talk.

Beth 20:39

Um, but

Jeff 20:40

even at times, like asking questions like we, we can, you may experience it if you're a regular listener on the podcast, like the kinds of questions that Beth ask versus the kinds of questions that Jeff ask. And we get really passionate, like we want to get to it, but yet we might not have enough time. So there's always this kind

Beth 20:56

of. Well, and I think even how we coach is very different. Like I have more of a, i, I guess like a, a teaching guiding, uh, question, curiosity approach, but you would be more curiosity question approach first. Yeah. Right. Um, and not that one is right or wrong, but when you have differing gifts or skillsets or passions or the way you see things, it, it can start to rub up against, you know, yeah. Each other's desires and and, and there can be friction and I just don't want friction. And so I try to, and to be honest with you, navigate these quote unquote, what I think are like landmines when they're really not that big of a deal. Um, and if I would see it more for really what it is and navigate it more in a healthy way, then we'd actually address things versus trying to either check out, numb out, avoid, which only has created, I would say, more dynamics. And that's my side. Now you have this

Jeff 21:56

side. I know it's hard to say this, but I, I believe this to be true. I'm not sure if you would believe it to be true. I think you would. I think the magic happens when there's friction. Like it's usually on when the more that we work on our own stuff. On the other side of it, I

Beth 22:17

can say, I see exactly what you're saying, but there's a ton inside of me that's like, Ooh, that sounds terrible. You know, like, I think I'm just, you know, as an, as a nine, like, I don't even almost want to admit that that's true, because then it like, am I giving him license that this is like, okay, like we should have friction. Like, I don't wanna admit it. Bet. But No, I think you're right. Yeah. I mean, and it's like for all of us, like, like our last

Jeff 22:43

book more than your number growth

Beth 22:45

is out of our marriage stuff. Yeah. Growth is hard. Growth comes out of working through hard things and us nines, we just want something that's simple and easy and smooth. Yeah. If I'm just being very honest, and I will

Jeff 22:59

say even for me, like I, I bring a lot of energy and passion, uh, my presence is felt, whereas for Beth, she wants to maybe. Pull back a little bit and maybe not be seen at times. And so a lot of times the dynamic is me trying to pull Beth out. Mm-hmm. And other times she's kind of like, Hey, can you simmer it down? Turn the ball. Can you simmer it down? Okay. Savages, what about you guys? Yeah. So Savages, we'll start with you first. Uh, tell us when has, have you experienced the turbulence and bumpiness of coaching and leading together?

Mark 23:34

No, not at

Beth 23:35

No, never.

Jill 23:36

Okay. Well, let's just start out that Mark is an Enneagram nine and I'm an engram one. So,

Jeff 23:43

a match made in heaven.

Jill 23:44

exactly. So, so what,

Mark 23:46

what else is to be said?

Beth 23:49

What could go wrong?

Mark 23:50

I know a lot. Yeah.

Beth 23:53

As

Jeff 23:54

a matter of fact,

Mark 23:55

yeah, yeah. I, I do, uh, I do sense that we have been able to kind of fall into a, a routine and a pattern. Uh, definitely Jill brings more passion and energy. She's more of, you're more of that teacher. Mm-hmm. Coach and I am more of a. You're a

Jill 24:20

shepherd, shepherd. Um, you're d you are a shepherd, and you, you are actually good at really asking questions and you've worked really hard. Um, you know, when I think of like your book, Jeff and Beth, more than a number really talks about per uh, that personal growth. Mm-hmm. And part of Mark's personal growth has been learning to not fear conflict. Mm-hmm. And to really find your voice. Mm-hmm. Because that has been, yeah. That's probably one of the places that, uh, you would hesitate. And, and we're not even talking just in coaching. That's been in 39 life in everything. 39 years of our marriage and, you know,

Mark 25:06

67. I wanted the easy button too, Beth.

Beth 25:09

right? Yes. Isn't there one? No, I've seen it on those commercials. Don't they sell it? Yeah.

Jeff 25:13

They're selling something else, not

Mark 25:15

I know.

Beth 25:16

right? Well, they need to have the button. We're waiting for the button.

Jeff 25:20

I mean, mark, what is that like for you? So you guys do intensives where it's an all weekend experience with a couple that needs help.

Mark 25:29

Mm-hmm.

Jeff 25:30

What is it like for you as an Enneagram nine to tell Jill that maybe she did something wrong,

Greg 25:39

Oh.

Beth 25:41

Jill? Julie is like, Ooh,

Mark 25:44

Go right ahead. Yeah.

Beth 25:46

now we're all listening.

Mark 25:47

Yeah. Uh, well, I think I've learned You don't say how you did that was wrong. We, uh, you blew it up, babe. Um, what were you thinking? Uh, that we, uh, we really have a natural way of evaluating, and I, I do think it's, uh, who we are today as a couple has really grown. Uh, tremendously and, uh, has developed through the hardships that we've faced early on in, in marriage. And so, uh, we do have conversations often where, uh, where we'll say, well, we tried this approach that didn't work, or we didn't accomplish what we had hoped. So we then we do a

Jill 26:41

lot of brainstorming together. What do you think? Yeah, I think I'd like to go in this direction. What do you think about that? Um, but you know, in answer to the question that Jeff asked, I do think, uh, that has, you know, you've really come. To a place where that happens naturally between the two of us. Mm-hmm. Like routinely as a one. I don't have trouble telling him what he did wrong. Um, I have trouble telling him what he did wrong in a nice way. Right. And in a way that, uh, considers the big picture. And that's my, that's been my personal growth. Right. Yeah.

Beth 27:15

Yeah. Yes.

Jill 27:16

but Right. Um, he, you know, I think that in finding your voice mm-hmm. That has also included being able to communicate, uh, either a disappointment or a direction that you want changed or something like that. Mm-hmm.

Mark 27:32

So, uh, I think to answer the question from a different way, if Jill comes at me more direct and intense, I used to really, uh, Uh, become defensive and antagonistic towards that. Uh, and almost like, I mean, I was taking it personal. You will not talk to me that way. And, uh, that was not

Jeff 27:59

that nine roar. I like, it was,

Mark 28:03

It

Mark and Jill 28:03

takes

Jill 28:03

a while for them to get there, but

Jeff 28:05

at a roar.

Mark 28:06

yeah.

Beth 28:07

It feels like, I, I tell people, I go, I feel like I am. Uh, well, no. Yeah. What, what's his, the, his alter ego, um, Dr. Banner, you know, and then it's like, don't, like, don't set me off. And then it's like, I, I feel like I get to be this big Hulk, you know, all of a sudden. And my kids are like, mom, that might be how you see it, but if, if that's true, you're like a foot tall Hulk. Like you're not, you're, you're really not the Hulk, like the 10 foot Hulk or whatever, how big it is. I'm like, that's funny. I'm like, dang it.

Mark 28:42

Yeah, yeah. Um, that's

Jill 28:44

funny. Uh,

Mark 28:45

that's great. So I, what I'll do is I'll come back to Jill and say, okay, uh, I can tell that you're frustrated by that. What is it that you wanted to see happen? Uh, what is your, what are your thoughts? Uh, how would you like to, uh, move ahead in this? And so I think that does happen naturally. Mm-hmm. And we can have that conversation without walking away, uh, feeling like we had just been in this knockdown, drag out

Jeff 29:18

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And, and, and it's a, it's an important point to remember, like you in the recovery world, uh, there's a phrase that if it, if it's not messy, you're probably not doing it right.

Mark 29:30

Mm-hmm.

Jeff 29:30

part of doing this work together is learning together, and even you wonderful examples of keeping the problem, the problem, versus making the person the problem. And you find new ways, like, okay, that didn't work for us. Okay, how can we re-engineer this? Well, Gorman's tell us about, uh, you, I mean, I, I would imagine there's not too many problems where you No friction there. No friction at all. I You've been nailing it from the beginning.

Julie 30:04

There's usually, uh uh, it's not uncommon for there to be a lot of fur flying around here. I like to

Jeff 30:11

Oh, that's a fun phrase. Like, I love being around you, Greg. Cuz you bring some idioms that Yeah. Some fur flying. That when our kids come home and Beth and I have been arguing, I'm gonna say, Hey guys, you may see some fur flying

Mark 30:26

And they'll be like, what happened to the dog?

Beth 30:28

right?

Julie 30:32

Oh man. You know, I'll tell you one of the, one of the things that has historically, uh, been difficult for us, uh, and, and I would love to hear what your response or your thoughts are, but it's that I'm, I'm an external processor and she's an internal processor. And so, uh, Enneagram, by the way, I, I I'm a seven and you're a two. Two, so, yeah. So

Jeff 30:59

It's a perfect marriage. Like there's no problems with a seven two relationship.

Julie 31:04

well, when we start, when we start working on things, what I have learned is, uh, first of all, I would, I would give all kinds of different ideas. I can have a million ideas a minute. Uh, as the years have gone, I've learned to harness that a little bit better, but I have a lot of ideas. Yeah. Julie is very much a doer. One of the things I love about her, the way she's wired, is that she does things. And so if I'm not careful to, to, to qualify a statement or an idea that I've had, then I'll wake up the next morning after she's stayed up all night and gotten stuff done, and I don't even know what it's, I'm like, babe, look what I created. And he's like, what's that? You know? And I'm like, oh, I was just thinking out loud. You know what I mean?

Beth 31:51

Yes.

Julie 31:52

me in trouble a few times, but I've also learned that I need the whiteboard. And so again, for, for me, again, being an external processor, this was a great discovery for me. Um, if I whiteboard with Julie, It's extremely frustrating to her. Uh, and it's frustrating to me as well because as we're working through and kind of, uh, ideating about things, she'll start giving pushback or definite clarity on something when it's just an idea that I'm not even committed to. But because she's pushing back, it makes me think I need to sell the idea and so I can take my heels in and we're getting gridlock. Yeah. And so I've learned that the better process is for me to go and conceptualize and ideate on a whiteboard, which allows me to do it externally, you know, not with another person, but the whiteboard becomes my, who I'm sharing it with, which works for me. And then after I've gotten it sifted down a little bit, I bring her in and like, okay, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think now? And then I can actually be receptive to her receiving. How would you respond to that? Yeah. I I, I would have to concur the, the other part of it. Sometimes I think I'm a nine, uh, even though I supported two, because the truth is, is there're most of the time, I'm, I'm just trying to, she has multiple personalities. You know, I just gave, I'll be this personality today. No, it, but there are so many times where, kind of like what you were saying, Beth, he may be pushing something pretty strong and I just want it to be, okay. I'll, I'll do that. Until all of a sudden I realized, no, wait a minute. I have a strong opinion here. And so there were times where I would just lash out when the truth was Greg never asked me to fill in a gap or do a certain project or, so I was building up some resentment. And so now I think we've, we've mastered that a whole lot better. Um, Greg's also a really strong personality and so no. Yeah. Most of the time I'm like, are you okay with being in the background? But I also have this thing that's like, well, wait a minute. I did all of that, and there's no recognition for me at all talking,

Beth 34:12

Yeah.

Julie 34:13

here's the truth, every time, and no, it's, it's actually comical at this point. We're, before it used to be an offense, but it'd be like, you know, like Greg said, and I was like, no, Greg didn't say that I said that.

Beth 34:24

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

Julie 34:26

Yeah. Because his voice is so strong and he'll come back, I might say something and I'm emphasizing it, getting to the heart of it, but he'll come and he goes, let me hit you real straight. And when he does that, they wake up and what they hear is that commanding strength and, and resolve. So from that, he has just a commanding authority that I don't carry, um, in the capacity that he carries in. So that used to be, I think in the early years now, it's like, like Greg said, I'll, I'll nudge him like that and just start giggling.

Jeff 34:57

Yep.

Julie 34:57

Let me ask you guys did, because this is another area, it, it's a different turn in the conversation. Same subject matter, the struggles of coaching together. Do y'all struggle to shut it off?

Mark 35:12

Oh my gosh, yes.

Jill 35:13

Mm-hmm.

Beth 35:13

like, well just clarification shut, which like, there, cuz when you are, you're coaching together, you're ideating together, you are producing your, uh, employee employers like, so whi which part are we talking about?

Jill 35:29

All of it. Yeah.

Mark 35:31

All of it. Yes.

Beth 35:33

Yeah. It's very hard.

Julie 35:35

is, yes.

Jeff 35:36

Oh yeah. Oh man. And here's like, we will go at the end of our day, we, cuz we work from home, we will try to go out and it ordinarily starts with a statement by one of us. I don't want to talk about the business. And then we talk about, and then the next comment is, well, I was thinking.

Jill 35:58

Yes. Oh my gosh. We do as well. We struggle with that. And here's another piece of that. I am an introvert and introverts are refueled by being alone. And so the other part is that I struggle with not having that space. And so, um, you know, because I, I need alone time to be creative, um, for some of the writing that I do where I just need to, and I, and we're, we're always in the same space. Mm-hmm. And so that, I think that is, goes, kind of goes along with it as well.

Mark 36:38

Mm-hmm.

Jeff 36:39

It's funny, Beth works on our patio out behind her house, and like she is so zoned in. Anytime I walk out there, I scare her. I'm like, Ugh.

Beth 36:48

Like,

Jeff 36:48

what? What was that? What was, what was it? It's just your husband, Beth? I, I live here with you. Yeah, but she works very alone now. I would love to just have a whiteboard for a house and just ideate and talk all day long. But that is not best process.

Beth 37:05

No,

Julie 37:05

you've gotta start recording it, dude. Oh, he scares me all the time. He'll come on and, and I record it

Beth 37:12

You record your ideating.

Julie 37:14

no, I recording scaring her.

Beth 37:16

Oh, oh,

Julie 37:18

Yeah. Outta

Greg 37:20

capitalize on these things, bro.

Jeff 37:23

that I, yeah. I would love to be known as, uh, Beth husband, who terrifies her multiple times a day.

Beth 37:31

I'm sure I get so focused. Yeah.

Jeff 37:34

I'm sure that TikTok account's gonna go really, really well. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark 37:37

Yeah.

Jeff 37:37

But what, what Gorman's go, oh, go ahead, mark.

Mark 37:40

to me. Uh, I am Fooc, I'll be focused on the computer. She's gone out of our office. We share an office, and then she'll kind of slide in and touch my shoulder and I'm like,

Beth 37:54

Yeah, that's exactly it.

Mark 37:55

even know she was there,

Beth 37:57

Yes.

Jeff 37:58

Oh, that's amazing. Well, I think, you know what, Corman's, what about you guys? I mean, how do you balance work, relationship, family?

Beth 38:03

Because it, what I wanted to say as they go into that, I was gonna say with with his question, to be fair, I think all of us would say there are times that we definitely don't want to talk about the business, and yet we love what we do.

Mark 38:20

Right.

Jill 38:20

Exactly.

Beth 38:21

really Wow. That's right. Challenging to shut it off, because there's so many

Jill 38:25

you love

Mark 38:26

it. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Beth 38:27

and there's one day I love this part of the business and I hate that part of the business business, but then the next day it's flip flopped, you know? And so it makes it challenging to know which parts we can or can't talk about on any given day because it's challenging, but we're passionate about who we're serving and what we're doing that we wanna talk about it. And yet we know that there needs to be healthy boundaries. And so it's just a real conundrum. And, and then we have two kids that work full-time for the business, um, and one of them wants to talk and idea eight all the time, and the other wants, you know, a lot more boundaries. And so it's just interesting how that even, uh, fluctuates and shifts too. But yeah, Gorman's, go ahead.

Julie 39:11

Well, there's a couple of things. We, first of all, we've had to be a bit ferocious about it really. We've had to put up boundaries and, uh, I think we started out trying to, uh, fit in rest time and fit in, uh, uh, connection and intimacy and all of the different dynamics of our life. And, and, uh, that's bass wards. I know you can run with that one too, Jeff, but

Jeff 39:37

I mean, I mean that Julie, I mean, you're probably used to it, but I mean, like, do you ever, like he says, says something like that, that just drops a bomb and you're like, oh my,

Julie 39:47

yeah, he still astounds me to this day and he'll say things and I'm like, where did you come up with that? What's really bad is when he's standing up in front of a church and he uses

Jill 39:59

Right, right.

Julie 40:00

course. No,

Mark 40:02

I love it. I love it.

Julie 40:04

pastor Squirm every now and then,

Mark 40:05

I know.

Julie 40:06

We, uh, we really, uh, began to carve out specific times in our calendar and then we really guard that time, uh, it's scheduled ahead of time rather than trying to fit it in. So that's what we try to do for periodically throughout the year. But the other thing that we did is we actually took a, a period of time and started jotting down questions that we could ask one another in different categories, you know, and we actually shared that with couples. Uh, yeah, just conversation starters. And it's funny because we went on vacation not too long ago and, um, we actually, we were sitting at the table, like, we're out at this, we're celebrating our anniversary, and we're just kind of like sitting there looking at each other. And I'm like, how about we pull out the fun and flirty conversation starters, and we pulled it out, which I'm all about. Yeah. And we started. I do think it takes a lot of intentionality. We, we put, one of the rules was there is the, the no phone zone in our bedroom and no work zone in our bedroom. And so we carved out a place in our house cuz we're not only are we working 24 7 together, but it's also in the confinement of our home. And so we had to, we had to put that safe space that isn't associated in any way with work. And so,

Jeff 41:29

Oh, that's awesome.

What do you love about working together

Jeff 41:31

So, uh, here's, uh, another question I wanted to ask. What is it that you love, that you love about working together that like, you just, you just can't do without? Beth, what about you? What, tell me about what it's you love about working with me and why your life is better working with me. Um,

Beth 41:55

let me think. No, stay. Um, no, I, I, I really love how God has brought our same passions, but from different skill sets, different insights, different personality types, but we're, we're still heading. It's like we're, like, we are right now on camera, side by side, walking this path together. We're walking up the hills and down the hills and through, you know, all the windy roads and everything together. Um, and. With the hopes that as we journey through this and as we learn and God shows us things that we're passing on our insights, the, the different things that we've learned to a few people that are behind us, like, Hey, follow us. You know, this is what God's shown us. And I think by doing that and then seeing what God does in their life and they're, you know, transformation, their growth, that's what's so fun and inspiring. And to see it unfold from two different people, two different skill setss, like that's, it's just watching God really do his work in the marriage and in the business as a collective. And that just really excites

Jeff 43:07

me. Yeah. Uh, Tim Keller has a quote in his, uh, marriage book about, um, particularly whenever, uh, you know, The kingdom arrives and we are transformed and, uh, and to be in christlikeness in, in its fullness. And he, he makes this comment and idea, I'd look it up, but I don't have my phone with me. But he, he has this idea of like, Hey, I, I want to be a part of the process of what God is doing in your life to make you something that he sees in you. And as a spouse, I get a front row seat to that and that we're gonna see it in full glory in heaven. But I get to see part of that now. And there is such a joy to do this in such a way cuz we, and then there's just the joy of seeing how when she may present something or I may present it and in the end, the end goal is that someone else experience. A gift of God's grace.

Mark 44:01

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jeff 44:02

such a joy to be able to do that together, that it's not just Beth's work, it's not just me doing something, but it's something that we can create together. Right. Just brings

Mark 44:11

Mm-hmm.

Jeff 44:11

joy. Absolutely. Well, Gormans, we're gonna start with you first. I mean, tell, tell us what is it that you love about working together?

Julie 44:19

Yeah. I love, you know, Greg says so often that the strength of a team is the diversity of the team, and I think we're finally at a place in our marriage relationship. That we no longer see one another's differences as faults,

Mark 44:34

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julie 44:35

to leverage one another's differences as strengths.

Mark 44:39

Yes.

Julie 44:40

There is a place, man, there is no greater peace or joy, um, than knowing that there is another person who 100% has my back, who has my best interest at heart. And because we both share that man, it's powerful to be able to walk into any room and know that it's okay. Like, Greg's got my back, we're good, we're gonna move forward with this. The difference in the way that we approach it and then we laugh a lot, like we really have so much joy mm-hmm. Um, of being able to do life together and we're very different in, in our strengths, both in a very practical. Sense, and then specifically in, in the coaching realm as well, in our style of coaching.

Beth 45:32

Mm-hmm.

Julie 45:33

But it really, really works well. I think, especially now that we've done it for as long as we have. Julie is so much more patient, and I really do love that about her. She's, if you spent more than 10 minutes around Julie, you know that she just oozes love. She's a warm person, very easy to be around. Um, she's more concerned with meeting your needs than having her needs met. Right? And

Mark 45:58

Mm-hmm.

Julie 45:59

and coming right along with that, she's got that, she's got that touch of patience that I just don't have. I'm a little bit tight around, uh, I'm a little bit more direct in approach. Um, I, I pull people up through inspiration, but I'm also very direct about it, you know, so they'll help me for it. Truly. Um, but there's times when that's not what people need at all. And over the years we've really learned that, just that perfect rhythm, I think at this point of being able to, to one another, kinda chill out and watch her do her thing instead of, you know, plow drive people like, so,

Jeff 46:37

I hear that in you. I, I think I'm better at what I do at my strengths because of Beth's presence

Julie 46:44

yes. Mm-hmm. That's,

Jeff 46:45

it.

Mark 46:46

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Jeff 46:47

it doesn't minimize it. It actually

Beth 46:49

strengthens it. But when we're younger, we think it's the opposites of it. Oh, it's competitive

Mark 46:53

Oh, right, right.

Beth 46:55

it's like, well, if you would just let me be me and you stop trying to change me, then I would be great when an actuality by me learning to work alongside you, but not become another person. But it, it, you know, it just sharp or it, uh, smooths out some of the edges and yeah.

Jeff 47:15

Works much better. Well, savages, tell us, uh, from your perspective, what do you love about working together?

Mark 47:21

Yeah, I think a lot of the things that, that you've been saying are true for us as well. Mm-hmm. But, uh, I think that we, we have really learned how to play ball together and when to throw Jill the ball or she'll, she knows when to throw me the ball. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's truly fun to watch Jill, uh, kind of navigate someone's life and, uh, and just to watch that from my perspective and it be a, a home run hit and I'm like, that was incredible. Chill. That was just amazing. And, and,

Jill 48:07

and I feel the same way. Like there's so many, and you know, I think the other piece that happens too is I am strong with words. Mm-hmm. You are strong with pictures. Mm-hmm. And some people need words and some people need pictures.

Mark 48:23

Yeah. And

Jeff 48:24

the, just the image that he gave of tossing the ball to one another. Yeah. It, it's so true. When you've been coaching a while with your spouse, like you just know, like you, you may think you're good at it, but you know that they're better

Julie 48:36

Right. Exactly right.

Jeff 48:38

and, and you learn how to pass the ball.

Mark 48:40

Yes. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, that's been, I think that's been fun to trust. I, we really trust each other and, uh, we know that we are a team. So Team Savage.

Jill 48:57

And we'd like to say that we have a front row seat, I mean, coaching marriages, and we coach a lot of marriages in crisis because of our story. We spend a lot of time with people that are rebuilding trust. They're navigating healing from infidelity. And so, um, one of the most beautiful things that we say is it, it's so fun to have a front row seat at watching God work. Mm-hmm. But I'd rather do that together, right. Than on my own. Yeah. So I think that's, it's experiencing that together. Yeah.

Julie 49:30

Here's another one real quick, like again, more as a question for you guys if you experienced this as well, but. Sometimes for us as we are coaching other people, when we're done and we wrap up the day and, um, we head off to, to put a bow on the day, it's like, man, I am so thankful for you. So that's another kind of benefit of doing this together. It's not, you know, poking at anybody else's issues or anything like that. It's not about that. It's just kinda like, it's man, you know? Um, I remember when we were where they're

Jill 50:07

yes, yes. We say that a lot. Yeah. Like, wow. That was us 10 years ago. Yeah. Wow. And we, we use the phrasing Mark and Jill. That was Mark and Jill 1.0. Mm-hmm. I sure am glad that we're Mark and Jill 2.0. Absolutely. So, yeah, I, I would agree with that.

Mark 50:24

And what I find in coaching together, it reminds us of what we need to keep working on.

Julie 50:33

Mm-hmm.

Mark 50:34

we'll, we'll be sitting with a couple and, and we'll be talking through an issue, and when Jill and I are done, I'll be like, you know what? I kind of have let that slide, I need to get back at this and I need to get, mm-hmm. I just need to stay focused on that part and not let it become dominant in my life. And

Julie 50:56

Just like, I'm glad you recognized that.

Jill 51:01

I've been praying you would

Mark 51:02

see that and you didn't tell me. That's so unusual.

Beth 51:09

yeah.

Jeff 51:12

Oh, that's so good.

Advice for a couple wanting to work together

Jeff 51:14

Okay. For the last segment, here's what I, what advice, uh, from your experience for someone who's maybe interested in getting into coaching, uh, with their spouse now, whether that be any agram coaching, marriage coaching, lifeguard, whatever type of coaching you may be considering doing as a couple, what would you guys offer as just some. Advice that you'd like to offer them? Beth, you, do you have anything?

Beth 51:41

Oh, um, I, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is do your own work. Like do your own internal work.

Mark 51:51

Yep.

Beth 51:51

I know that's probably like your mouth here, let me help you get that off the floor. Nines are notorious of, you know, sticking our head in the sand and like, what problem? I don't know what you're talking about. Everything's great. You know, and so it took me a lot longer to see my faults, my issues, my weaknesses at a true level. I mean, of course, you know, there's like, yeah, I see the little something, you know, but to really work on it, um, took me a lot longer than Jeff. Jeff has always been much more of a pioneer in our relationship to work on his stuff and by seeing his growth. It inspired me a lot of times, like, oh, it's not as scary, it's not as hard. I mean, it is hard, actually. No, it is

Mark 52:37

Mm-hmm.

Beth 52:38

Um, but it's possible and it's transformational personally, but also relationally. And so I think the more I have owned my own stuff and done my own work, it has only heightened our, uh, our coaching together, our life together, our friendship together. Um, and you know, I can still see there's a long ways to go, but I'm not as afraid of it, I think. Mm-hmm. As when I was, when I was trying not to see it at all.

Greg 53:08

Hmm.

Mark 53:08

Mm-hmm.

Jeff 53:09

your, for our own stuff, you know, there's, there's a phrase that some therapists use that, uh, if it's hysterical, it's historical or, uh, if it's big, it usually means that it's something in your heart, but things are going to come up. But that doesn't disqualify you. That's the invitation.

Mark 53:29

Mm-hmm.

Jeff 53:30

get to experience God's grace in helping you to become who he wants you to become when you're working

Beth 53:36

with your spouse. And I will, and I think you alluded to this earlier, it's like every time I am working on something or we're working on something, I laugh now I'm like, yep, I'm sure this is gonna be in a book. Great.

Mark 53:50

Yes.

Beth 53:51

You know, or, or I'm sure this is gonna, like, I'm gonna be coaching someone and I'm gonna have this. Oh, that's why God was having me go through that, you know, and learning that. And, and so I, I laugh at it now, cuz in the past it would've felt like shame or like, I'm right. I'm bad or I'm doing, whereas now it's like guys just, he's, he's teaching me one more thing and he's guiding me through one more adventure of growth. Um, no, I mean

Jeff 54:15

it's, it's interesting cuz it is a bounce. So Gorman's mentioned it earlier that, um, oh man, the, the thought just left me. But we, we want to lead from authenticity. Yeah.

Mark 54:25

Mm-hmm.

Jeff 54:26

At the same time, when we are coaching, we don't want our issues to get in the way of the couple's process. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. And so there is a balance to it, but don't waste your pain. Right. Like, it, it is a gift to other people. Right. And most people won't share that out of shame. Right. But the grace of God tells us, you know, it's, I, I, I can't remember, uh, there's a pastor who said something like, we're attracted to one another's successes, but we are connected to one another in our pain. Mm-hmm. Uh, and there's an opportunity to connect and help people whenever we are honest about our experience. Yeah. So, um, Gorman's, let's start with you. What would you share with a couple who's interested in coaching?

Julie 55:05

I got one for you. This is like, I think the thing that, um, totally radically has changed our pace is by having the priority conversation. And so we were talking about the 24 7. Uh, it's, it's hard to shut it off. And so we, every week we're coming together, we call it the Sunday night locker room huddle, right? We're coming together, we're talking about life, we're talking about dreams, we're talking about the priority. And so really on a daily basis we do this, but we'll ask one another. What's your priority today? Not, not with an S, not with an S. Right. The whole because, and it really comes from, uh, the Macallen book, essentialism, right? Where if you don't prioritize your life, someone else will. I like someone or something else will. And so, cause we're so passionate, because both Greg and I are extremely intense and we are like type A, don't take any excuses. I remember when God kind of whispered to my heart and he said, Julie, your breakthrough won't come by trying harder or working harder, but by resting more.

Beth 56:12

Yeah. Hmm.

Julie 56:13

found that my role comes by understanding what my priority is for the week. And sometimes that priority is as simple as we need to connect or, or we need to connect with our kids and, and given ourselves the understanding. Don't lie about your capacity. Right. Slow down. And so it helps when we look at one another cuz sometimes I might think he needs a priority that isn't his priority and so we need to have a conversation and there's sometimes where maybe he thought maybe something was of a higher priority that wasn't on mine.

Beth 56:44

sure.

Julie 56:44

Just to say, you know what, if we don't get anything else done, I'm gonna pull a Greg on you here. What would make this high five Happy dance and chest bump if we.

Jeff 56:56

I, I, I don't believe I've ever chest bumped Beth.

Beth 56:59

No. I. Well, we'll keep it there. Yeah. But let's, let's not, thank you. So funny.

Julie 57:08

I think my response, in addition to what Julie said there was there was a, it, it took us a little while to get our right rhythm and figure out, um, our roles, yeah, our individual roles, but I think define 'em once we really did a deep dive in that and, um, assigned. Like, like you are. Because if everybody's in charge, nobody's in charge, right? Nobody's gotta be in charge of this, and then someone else might need to be in charge of this. And when we e established that, even in the hierarchy in our home, it it, it made a huge, huge difference. So certainly in, in, in coaching together. Yeah. And then learning how to communicate and like you guys were talking, um, not letting your story get in the way of the coaching, but actually leveraging it to relate, you know, only for the sake of relating to their, what they're going Yeah. Only as it applies to the and for their betterment, not just so we can tell our story

Mark 58:14

Mm-hmm.

Jill 58:15

Yeah.

Jeff 58:15

Well, savages, what about you guys?

Jill 58:17

Hmm. You know, a and so you guys were talking, I jotted down just a couple of things first. Um, start, just start. Yeah. I mean, if you're thinking about this, people are probably asking you in some way, uh, to share wisdom. Maybe they're seeking you out, that naturally happens and you know, that imposter syndrome can get in there and go, wait, what do we have to offer? Mm-hmm. And, um, You know what's really exciting for us is we have, uh, so we just launched our very first, uh, cohort of training, marriage coaches, uh, training, we call 'em Marriage 2.0 coaches. And in our training we have multiple couples that had been coaching with us for the last few years. And so, you know, at first they're like, I don't know, like, we're really interested in this, but I don't know if we're really outta place. Mm-hmm. And you know what? They've done the work, they, none of us are complete. No. None of us on this side of heaven are done. Mm-hmm. Like our marriage has arrived. Mm-hmm. So if you're waiting for your marriage to arrive, you're gonna be waiting for a long time cuz it isn't gonna happen. So, um, there is always somebody that's behind you. Right. And so I think one of the things, and we talk, we actually talk about this, man, we learn something new, we turn around and

Mark 59:43

teach it Right. Because then it's, it's really effective and it, it cements itself inside of us. And it's also interesting that we'll be in a struggle and, uh, we're trying to work it out and we sit in front of a couple and all of a sudden our struggle raises. I'm not gonna say that. Right. They're struggling with the same thing that we are, and God lets us see insight into their struggle that we can apply to ours. It's so bizarre mm-hmm. That we walk away going, wow, we got our answer. You know? And so, yeah. It's just, it's just cool how, uh, How God allows us to, to really invest in another couple. And everybody's life is transformed in the

Jill 1:00:35

process. It is. And the last thing I would say is the power of prayer Yeah. Is so very important. You know, when Mark is, whether we're speaking, you know, we travel and do no more perfect marriage seminars. So we also speak the same way that we coach. And when he's speaking or when we're in the middle of coaching mm-hmm. And he's kind of interacting with a couple, I'm praying. And then, and then vice versa, right. He's praying when I'm kind of taking the lead. And, um, we have to trust that we're not the ones that have to come with the answers. Right. We know the one who has the answers. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of times I think we get in the way because we think we have to have those answers. We need, we just simply need to stay connected mm-hmm. To the one that will guide us and lead us and show us the way.

Mark 1:01:26

Right.

Jeff 1:01:28

That's awesome. Well, thank you all of you. Yeah. And for just showing up and, uh, even the fact that you responded by faith to God's call in your life, despite all the reasons that our mutual enemy would tell us not to, you decide you're gonna believe that mm-hmm. God was enough and he wanted you to do it. And such an inspiration for, you know, the couples out there that, that want to take a, a and dip their toes in this as a possibility of maybe working together. I know that many couples would love it, but are afraid to even start. Well, uh, gorman's, where can people find you and about the work that you do and about what it's like becoming a marriage coach with you?

Julie 1:02:07

Yep. Married for a purpose.com. Pretty much all the social media handles will have married for a purpose.

Jeff 1:02:14

Awesome. Thank you so much. And savages.

Jill 1:02:17

well you can find us. Uh, on our website is Mark and jill.org, mark and jill.org. Um, all of our social media is under my name, which is Jill savage.author.

Beth 1:02:30

Right. Awesome. Well, and you know, for those of you guys that are out there and you're like, oh man, I've, I've kind of felt that feeling inside that, you know, I see us, you know, coaching or walking alongside other, you know, couples or people or individuals, whatever it might be. If you're feeling that tug, just take a look at what coaching is like as a couple. Um, so we're, right now, we've opened our registration for becoming an Ingram coach this week, and we also are hosting a lot of webinars to educate you on what is an Ingram coach. And so if that's something that you're excited about looking into, then sign up at for one of our webinars at. Engram webinar.com. That's engram webinar.com. And or email us at info your engram coach.com and let us know that you and your spouse are interested in coaching. Or if you are not married, but you're like Beth, or maybe you're just like, Beth, I would like to coach, but my spouse doesn't wanna coach, come to the webinar too. So this is just really for anyone that is interested in coaching with the Enneagram, um, but we would love to connect with you on that. Um, well thank you guys so much for coming today and listening to our fun time together as friends, but also in kind of a shared space of coaching as couples. Um, thank you for listening, but just remember, the engram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it is the gospel that transforms us.