Introduction

Adam 1:11

Well, hey everyone. I'm Adam Breckenridge, director of Coaching here at your Enneagram coach, and I'm joined by my good friend Brian Lee, who is the coaching manager at Y E C. Uh, Brian and I have the joy of working together every day to serve our community of certified Enneagram coaches, and for the next few episodes, or really for most of the summer, Brian and I are gonna be standing in for our friends, Beth and Jeff McCord to host your Enneagram coach, the podcast. Um, and so we wanna welcome you to the show. Uh, our mission is to help you see yourselves with astonishing clarity so that you can break free from self condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom in Christ. And if you love this content, then turn on automatic downloads or like, and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Also, share this with somebody who would enjoy or benefit from this content as well. You've got. Friends, you've got family members, coworkers. If you know anybody that would love this content, please feel free to share.

Meet Clif and Sally

Adam 2:09

And with that, we're gonna get into this episode. Um, on this episode of the podcast, we're gonna be talking about how the Enneagram provides us with a path to deeper connection and healthier relationships. Our guests today are Cliff and Sally Roth. Uh, cliff and Sally are married, just celebrated, I think 19 years in May. Did I see that?

Sally 2:30

right.

Adam 2:31

19 years? I saw 19 years Happy anniversary. Um, cliff and Sally have three daughters. They live in the Louisville, Kentucky area where they both serve on staff at Crosspoint Ministries. Crosspoint advocates for the relational health, spiritual vitality, and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders. Both Cliff and Sally are a certified relationship and recovery coaches in the Crosspoint Soul Care network. Sally has been the Sole Care Institute program director for some time, and Cliff is the executive Director of Crosspoint. There's so much more I wanna say about them, but I'm gonna let them introduce themselves. So Cliff and Sally. Friends, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

Sally 3:11

Thanks for having us, Adam.

Cliff 3:13

you so much. Yeah, thanks for having us. We're excited, and as you said, to see, uh, our, um, worlds collide in these, this kind of a conversation is really exciting to us and we've been looking forward to this for, uh, a number of weeks now. So,

Adam 3:29

Yeah, man, I'm so, I'm so excited. What? Yeah. What were you gonna say, Sally?

Sally 3:33

I was just gonna say, it's just gonna remind me of our Soul Care Institute days together, Adam, where we, we sat around and chatted it up, so

Adam 3:41

That's right back in, I think I met you guys back in 2015 or 2016 when I, when I first came through the Soul Care Network, uh, with Crosspoint. So, and then, you know, the three of us have been able to do some work together over the years. Um, and so this, I was, I was saying before we hit record that this has been a dream come true for me to see your Enneagram coach and Crosspoint kind of do some more stuff together. So, um, and I know recently you guys both connected with Brian Lee and, and partnered together on, on his broken to Beloved summit. So, yeah.

Brian 4:14

So I'm on the front end of the Sole Care Institute.

Adam 4:17

What's that Brian?

Brian 4:19

I said I'm on the front end of the Sole Care Institute and worked with Cliff, uh, with the Broken Beloved Summit. So this is a fun collision.

Cliff 4:25

Yeah.

Adam 4:26

it. Love it. Well, hey, so, uh, the four, the four of us know each other, but for our listeners, cliff and Sally, why don't you share a little more about I. Uh, let's talk about your journey with the Enneagram and maybe share a little bit about how you discovered your type, um, what that journey that discovery was like for you, and then how the Enneagram fits into the work that you guys are currently doing.

Sally 4:50

Wow. Do you want me to go first?

Adam 4:53

Yeah, go for it.

Sally 4:55

Um, okay. Well, I, I first took the Enneagram in 2012, and I'll never forget the night because it was a rainy night. And Cliff and I met Joy and Jim at a coffee shop where Jim delivered to me, my first Enneagram scores in my life. And I came, I scored as a Core four, but I was not convinced at all that the test was correct. And so over time, I have come to understand and enjoy like the four part of me. But like I've taken the Enneagram about every two or three years since then, and every time my total, um, my total scores like the eight and the four are like almost tied. And so anyone who knows me, like I'm, I'm the oldest sister of seven children, like I, I probably present more like an eight if you just like are meeting me, especially in a leadership role or something like that. And so, I just always like wonder like, wasn't sure about this, like what is this? But it, sometimes I would be forward, sometimes I would be like, it would just be like one point different. And so, um, for a while I was just like, okay with it. I was just like, well, whatever. I'm both, that's cool. I'm special. So, but about three years ago, um, a mentor of mine encouraged me to really spend some time with it and try to land on something. And, um, so after praying and considering um, kind of my ways of relating and my current relational world and then also my story, I could just see both operative within me so significantly and I was really struggling. But what helped me the most was, um, zooming out and considering the triads. And so I claim today I landed on sort of my aness as my course style because I resonate so deeply with a sense of guilt and not so much with the sense of shame that we see in that hard triad. So that's sort of where I'm at today, and I love, um, I love working with Enneagram. I think it's super, it's just fun. It's, it's, it can be light. I mean, certainly it can be deep and it is transformative, but it's just such a fun, um, like language to learn and share with others. Um, in my opinion, and, and by way of working, w I mean I certainly do in my coaching, um, uh, with my coaching clients, we often use the Enneagram just as a way to sort of, uh, get a lot of insight really fast. Um, and

Adam 7:27

That's right.

Sally 7:28

so I do love it in that context.

Adam 7:31

Yeah. Yeah. I can see Brian with his Enneagram coach hat on leaning forward, wanting to dig into this eight and four. Uh, is that right, Brian?

Brian 7:41

It is. There's, there's, there's. There's some unique similarities between the two, so it's a lot of fun to hear it.

Adam 7:48

That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. Thanks so much, Sally, for sharing, uh, sharing your journey with us. Cliff, what about you? What about your, how, how did you discover your

Cliff 7:57

well, you know, it's funny cuz Sally's talking about it in the terms of the, the test, you know, the Enneagram has the test and you know, some people. CD Enneagram less as a test and more kind of as this process. Right. And she's alluding to both things. Right? The reality that the test introduced us to a process. And I think that, so for, for the first time I took a test, I mean, I never heard of the word Enneagram until Jim Millfield gave me this document with all the circles I need to fill out. And I took it like, you know, an s a t test from when I was a kid. And, uh, and then I had to fax the, the results like on an old fax, on a fax machine. So thankfully

Adam 8:44

year? What year is

Brian 8:45

You're dating

Cliff 8:46

well this was, I think it was, she said 12 for some reason. My mind is 11, 12, somewhere in there. But fax machine still. So I, I did, I faxed our results or I faxed our responses to this number in California, and then Jim walks in with this big envelope when all pulls out our results and, you know, goes over that with us. And so that was our first introduction. And, and, and at that time, you know, to kind of play off of Sally's, uh, idea of sort of this, you know, these maybe two different, um, resonating with kind of two different course styles or two different styles and, and not sure kind of going through the process of figuring out kind of more about herself. I would say for me that I had a similar experience where my three score on the test was just about as the total score was just about the same as the seven. And, you know, the more profiles I've looked at, uh, obviously that's not an uncommon thing for somebody who's got a lot of that three energy to also have a lot of seven energy. And so, um, I, I had that going on and I was at that time working in a sales role, and it made perfect sense. The more I look back on it, the more I'm like, yeah, it makes perfect sense that I really saw myself through the lens of that performer. I mean, absolutely rooted in my story as all that performer stuff there as well. But I mean, I was really having to live into that, um, that performer stuff. And then over the years as I've kind of begun to do more of my own internal work and understand my story and understand my gifts and understand more about, you know, my vices and sort of seeing those vices as the, some of the inhibitors to healthy relationship, I really have seen more of that seven stuff, um, as, as sort of deeper rooted in my soul. So would call myself a core style seven for sure. Um, but when we got introduced to it, we, we both kind of had that, uh, who are we, are we confused? Are we, you know, what, what's, what's our problem? Um, and uh, it's just been a real, a real gift to have this tool at our, you know, at our disposal for so many years now over, you know, 10, 11, 12 years.

Adam 11:09

Love it. Love it. And I know you guys are doing some really cool things with it at Crosspoint, which we'll, we'll, we'll hopefully talk about in just a moment. So yeah, man, thanks for sharing that with, with us. Um, I, as you guys were talking, I'm, I'm, I'm curious how much you've explored tri types. So we've talked about tri types, I think we've talked about tri types on the podcast. Um, that's Catherine fare's stuff, right? Brian? Tri types. Yep. Check that out. Uh, sounds like both of you may have, you know, if your, if your core style or core way of relating is seven, uh, it sounds like you probably have a three in your tri type, and then Sally as an eight. Basically, tri type is your, you know, your highest score in each of the triads, you know. So for me it would be, gosh, for me it would be 6, 4, 9 would be, I think my, or

Cliff 11:57

3 78 for me.

Adam 12:00

There you go. Sally, do you know yours?

Sally 12:04

So be my next kinda highest number. Is that, is that

Adam 12:07

4. What's your, what's your highest in the, in the head triad. What's your highest score? Five, six or seven?

Sally 12:14

Five?

Adam 12:16

Five. There you go. All right, Bri and Brian, what's

Brian 12:18

5, 8, uh, I don't know mine because I don't have a heart, so I can never decide if, if my tri type includes a two, three, or four. I feel meaning, meaning I feel. So I have, I definitely, I identify as a, as a one. Um, I've got a whole lot of five in the head triad. I don't, the two and the four kind of compete evenly, so I don't know where to land on those.

Adam 12:42

Yeah.

Brian 12:42

Um, so it's one of the

Adam 12:43

too, Brian. Yep, that's me too. That's so funny. Um, I love it. Okay. Well, man, you guys mentioned a few names as you were talking. You, you, you mentioned, uh, you know, Jim and Joy a few different times. So just to bring our listeners in, you know, Cliff Sally. The, the three of us have been all been mentored and, and deeply and forever impacted by Rich and Sally PLAs and Jim and Joy Cofield, who, um, you know, co-founded Crosspoint Ministries. Rich and Jim Co-wrote The Relational Soul, which we highly recommend everybody reads. Um, and as I mentioned earlier, Crosspoint is a ministry that is striving to serve pastors and Christian leaders advocating for their relational health, spiritual vitality, and then helping them grow in resilience so that they can stay in the game, stay healthy, and stay in the game. And, um, you know, just to share a, a little bit of my story, uh, when I came to you guys in 2015, I, I came, I discovered Enneagram in 2015. That's why I was in Kansas City. My life kind of blew up, hit the wall. Fell into the, to the care of Rich Pla, who, you know, one of the first things he said to me, uh, Carrie and my wife, Carrie and I, who we were getting ready to go to the Louisville area to meet with Rich and Sally and do a, a, a two or three day intensive. And Rich said, I want you to, um, he said two things. Uh, don't come unless you first take the Enneagram and don't come unless you bring your wife. Uh, and so I had a similar response to you, cliff. It was kinda like an any of what, like what is this thing? Um, and so, you know, rich introduced me to the Enneagram and became my coach and mentor. And, and that was, you know, that I was, I was burned out, I was exhausted, I was hurting, I was lonely. I wanted to quit. And basically ended up going through a, a two year restoration process with Ridge, with Crosspoint, which started with the Enneagram. And, uh, You know, because of Crosspoint, because of your ministry. I'm, I'm still a pastor. I'm still in Min, I'm still here, I'm still in ministry. And honestly, that probably wouldn't be the case if not for what, what you all do. So, um, thank you. My, my family. Thanks you. Um, I'm deeply grateful. And that kind of gets us into the topic of what, what, what we wanna talk about today. The, the, the number one symptom that something was off with me was my relationships were breaking down and, and I was highly dysfunctional, highly anxious, highly reactionary, defensive, guarded. And that was really jamming up all my relationships. And so, um, that kind of gets us into what I wanna, what I wanna talk about, which is using the Enneagram to foster deeper connection and healthy relationships.

Quality of Relationships

Adam 15:27

And I would love for Cliff and Sally for you to speak to this a little bit because one of the things that Rich said to me, That has stuck with me over the years, and I believe it's Crosspoints vision statement is this one line of the quality of our life and ministry depends on the quality of our relationships. That I'll never, that's, that's actually on my desk in front of me. I'll never, I'll never forget that line. I use it with all my clients. I use it with other pastors that I coach. The quality of our life and ministry depends on the quality of our relationships. So I'd love to start with just having you guys unpack that for us. Can you, can you prove that thesis? Tell me how have you seen that to be true and what, what are the, what are the consequences or what's the danger of, of, of not having healthy relationships? Um, so can, can you guys unpack that for us? The quality of our life and ministry depends on the quality of our relationships. Talk, talk a little bit about that.

Cliff 16:25

Yeah. Well, I'll start and, um, we'll kind of take it away sound and see how we can prove this thesis. Um,

Sally 16:33

Yeah.

Cliff 16:35

yeah, I, I would just say most people when they hear that phrase, don't need anybody to prove it like they know, right. They know. It's just like, well, yeah. Um, and, and that's because, you know, of course we're created in the image of this relational God who created us, who created humankind out of the overflow of his love. He created everything out of the overflow of his love. But, but specifically the sort of crown, the crown jewel of his creation, right, are these humans that he made. Um, and when he created human kind, he created them with. Uh, with a particular, um, propensity or which is these sort of compelling needs. In other words, that he, God made us in his image and in his image, he gave us this, this, this longing, this desire to reach out and to, to ask or to say, I, I need, that's not a result of the fall. Uh, that was a, that was part of the original design. And so the quality of our lives really depends upon our willingness to surrender to that, to our humanity. Uh, our willingness to surrender to the relational design. Again, the relational design being, um, I want you to want me and I want you, you know, like we want each other. And that was, that was perfect. That was the perfect design that God had had placed on humankind and. The narrative that we see in, in the book of Genesis, if you read that narrative, you see, first it was this, this man that he created, and in, in his image, this man, uh, had a feeling in his body. Uh, and I would say it was a feeling of loneliness. And I think, you know, we'll, we'll keep talking about loneliness as we go on in this conversation, because that's gonna be a key component to this phrase. The quality of life depends upon the quality of your relationships. And, and, and again, to kind of restate the, the line, the quality of your life depends upon your willingness to surrender, in a sense, to your, to your loneliness.

Adam 18:55

Hmm.

Cliff 18:55

In other words, that was what happened in the beginning is that Adam had a feeling and he told God, he had a feeling zebras and giraffes weren't gonna do it for him. Like he wanted another, he wanted somebody else. He was, he was longing for someone else that was similar to him, even different than the way God was similar to him. And God met that need perfectly for Adam in creating another human, one that was like him, yet different than him, amazingly. And, and so we see there in the very beginning, this relational design sort of coming online, not as a, again need, the need for connection, not as a result of the fall, but a very part interwoven into the fabric of what it means to be. Human. And so the reason we would say that is this, this, I mean, the reason we say that line all the time is we are, we believe, again, designed for relationships and we're defined by our relationships and Adam and Eve as the first humans, if you will, their willingness to live in the mystery of their sort of relational design and their neediness was what kept them in good, healthy love in with one another and with God. And as soon as that mystery was violated and they chose to find a way to do human existence apart from relationship with God, in other words, on their own, through self-preservation, that's where we begin to see the breakdown of the human experience. And we call that the fall, right? And so again, the quality of life is dependent upon our willingness to live into our created human design, which was one that was, was love. And love is what we were created for in relationship to God and with one another.

Adam 20:47

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks Cliff. So good. Sally, what about what, what, what are some, what are some thoughts? What's going through your mind as you sit with this statement of the quality of your life? Depends on the quality of your relationships.

Sally 21:00

Yeah, I love that all that Cliff has shared and sort of going back to the beginning and sort of our design, our relational design. Um, what's interesting for me, I often think for some reason, every time I hear this, which I hear this line a lot, I think about the word maturity. And I kind of think about how, you know, as Christians and believers, like we're all after we want to be maturing. We want to know what is it gonna take, how do we do the maturing, how do we get there? And, um, I remember hearing Rich and Jim talk about the how do we measure maturity? Is it, you know, by our bank account, our position, our knowledge, our intellect, our seminary degrees? You know, are we mature? If we have a good spiritual lang, use biblical, you know, spiritual language. Are we mature? You know, if we're involved in X amount of spiritual, Serving or practices, like what is it? You know, how do we know if we're mature? And, um, and, and, and to me, like no. We measure maturity by the quality and integrity of our relational world. And how are we doing maturing as believers? Well, let's check in with how we're doing in our relationships. You know, the Bible says we can have it all, but if we do not have love, it is meaningless. And in my view, like it's in, it's in relationships that our love is exchanged. Um, it's in relationships that trust is built. And sort of then that togetherness, you know, that Cliff talked about that togetherness that we long for is, is sort of created and takes shape. And so it makes sense that our maturity as humans would be, um, more around like, How are we, how are we functioning, sort of operating and, and, and, and existing in our relational world?

Adam 22:49

Yeah, that is really good. Yeah, go ahead, cliff.

Cliff 22:54

Piggyback on that. I'll. You know, it's, it is truly the greatest Christian apologetic is, is, is relational connection. We would say love, right? The greatest Christian apologetic is love. The greatest argument for the existence of God or for the existence of, um, Jesus is the way that God loved and created, and, and left love in the world, and the way he came to show us his love in the person and work of Christ. And so what Sally's saying is so important because there's, there is this tendency in us to, um, to prove our faith by something other than relational integrity. And every time that happens, we see that crashing and burning all around us. Like it just doesn't work. And, and so I love that she's adding that component here to this idea of our relational design. And furthermore, you know, even the, the greatest proof or evidence of, of. Christian Love is the quality of our relationships,

Adam 23:59

yeah. This is how the world will know that you were my disciples,

Sally 24:04

That's right.

Adam 24:05

by the way. You, you, you do relationship essentially. Um,

Cliff 24:09

the la One thing I wanna say one more thing, sorry.

Adam 24:12

yeah. No, go for it.

Cliff 24:13

there's a line from my favorite line from, from one of my favorite authors, uh, Thomas Merton, who he said to live as a son or daughter of God is not the stringing together of 24 hours a day, seven days a week, acts of virtue, but it, but rather it's living a life from which all the obstacles to receiving God's love have been removed.

Adam 24:37

Mm.

Cliff 24:38

I think that's when we say the quality of life depends upon the quality of your relationships. Again, another way to frame it, the quality of your life depends upon your, your willingness to receive love.

Adam 24:49

Yeah.

Cliff 24:49

And, and all that we've done in violating the, the, the mystery of being human, which we would like to call maturity as Sally is saying it, like adults aren't needy. Uh, all that we've done in a, in, in an effort to sort of overcome, uh, are neediness is all really the antithesis of what it means to live life with God, where living life with God is truly learning to simply receive love like a child.

Adam 25:19

that's

Cliff 25:19

And so a lot of the work we've done with the Enneagram, which we'll again, continue to get into is finding and naming those obstructs to receiving love. What are the ways in which we've learned to do self preservation and go against this idea of the quality of my life depends upon the quality of my relationship, right? My, my willingness to receive love.

Adam 25:42

yeah, yeah. Brian, I'm just curious what's going on in you, because I know, uh, you're a pastor, you've experienced, you know, healthy relationships and unhealthy relationships and, and, and so, uh, how, how does this statement strike you? Uh, when, when you, as you sit with this and as you listen to Cliff and Sally?

Brian 26:02

Yeah, I've got a million different thoughts. Um, one in response to your Merton quote is, I wanna raise you another Merton quote. Um,

Cliff 26:12

Bring

Brian 26:12

he says, the beginning of love is the will to let those we love be perfectly themselves, because if in loving them, we do not love what they are, but only their potential likeness to the ourselves. Then we do not love them. We love only the reflection of ourselves that we find in them. And I think when I hear you talk about love being based in our relationships with each other or with others, or with God or with ourselves, um, there's such this going against all of that self preservation and instincts for survival. Because I think for those who have been harmed, for those who have been hurt, there is this trauma response to self preserve like you're saying. So if the quality of their life is measured by our relationships, but something has happened to rupture those relationships. So I think the quality of my life is determined by myself, preservation, or by my survival, then it's no surprise that everything starts to go sideways. Right. Um, and I love what you said at the beginning. I think it'll be a real game changer for some people that. All of this came into the world before sin.

Sally 27:26

Mm-hmm.

Brian 27:27

And the idea that Adam could be created perfectly, living a perfect life in a perfect garden, and somehow still feel lonely, could be a big paradigm shift for some people.

Adam 27:40

Yeah.

Brian 27:40

Um, and I think when we we're gonna keep talking about loneliness, but this idea, you know, we all love Chip Dodd and Voice of the Heart, and this idea that the gift of loneliness is that it moves us toward intimacy.

Adam 27:52

Yeah.

Brian 27:52

and the recognizing the invitation that that is, is just huge When we recognize that for ourselves, when we recognize that loneliness or some of these behaviors are just, are a symptom of what someone else is feeling in their loneliness or lack of relationship. Um, so I super excited to hear more.

Cliff 28:12

Well, I wanna, dude, I, I wanna say I think that's the key a hundred percent, like the loneliness thing and the fact that it, that preexist, that was part of our, our, our very nature. And I think when you go down through the rest of the feelings, if you will, that even, we, we, we, you can't talk about Enneagram and not talk about emotional experiences, right? Like that's, they go hand in hand. And so when we talk about our emotional experiences, particularly with the triads around fear, shame, anger, sometimes we use the term guilt there, um, to talk about anger. And we kinda have a way of nuancing that and massaging that a bit to help kind of see those three, uh, those three emotions as sort of the core, uh, fear, shame, guilt, kind of at the beginning of it in, in the genesis narrative. But, but, but my point in saying it is that it's paradigm shift for us when we realize that the feelings were designed to be felt in relationship. And if. I don't think fear, shame, and guilt existed before the fall, but, but what I do believe is that as those feelings came online, they were meant to be felt in relationship. And it was a paradigm game, a game changer for me. Paradigm shift for me. The first time I realized that I could somehow be ashamed and in relationship at the same time that I could be afraid and loved at the same time. That in fact my fear is what actually was the invitation to receive love and that my anger, I could be angry and in relationship at the same time. Game changer for me, game changer for me. Cause I've always sort of held to the the idea that, you know, if I show up in a relationship and express my loneliness, they're gonna go away. If I show up and express my fear or my shame. My anger that, that somehow those are gonna push people away rather than be the very things that draw authentic relationship like that actually bond us together. That's the most common hu you know, like emotions are what rehumanize, what's been dehumanized in our relationship worlds.

Adam 30:22

yeah, yeah. Man, there are a thousand threads I wanna pull. Right now. I'm having my inner committee as a type six is going nuts. Um, I

Cliff 30:34

stay.

Adam 30:35

I know, I know. So what I wanna, what I wanna do is I wanna do a feelings checkin with these, with these eight feelings. Uh, and then no, what I wanna do is I want to come back and record another episode on the Enneagram. And emotional awareness is what I'd like to do. Um, cuz what you're saying, cliff, uh, what all three of you are saying is that feelings are places to meet with God. Feelings are places to do relationship. Feelings are door. They're the doorways into relationship because feelings open the door to needs, needs open the door to relationship. And, you know, I come from a, I lo I love, I honestly, uh, love my theological heritage and thankful for the peoples whose shoulders I stand on. But one of the underdeveloped pieces that got massaged into me is an exaggerated view of sin and a very diminished anthropology. And that. Our need for God's grace is way bigger than our sin, and it actually supersedes our sin. And the one thing God requires of us to do life with him is actually the one thing we have plenty of, which is our need. But it's also the one thing about ourselves we despise the most and try to cover up. So, um, let's, let's get into, oh gosh, I also just wanna say this. We've given some beautiful, theological, beautiful, I have to say this beautiful theological responses to, um, why this thesis is true. That, uh, the quality of our life depends on the quality of our relationships. But, but theological responses, uh, aside, we also know this from our experience. I think about, you know, Barb, Barbara Carnes wrote, uh, I think I'm saying her name correctly, wrote a series of pamphlets on, on. Hospice and, and, um, and on death and dying basically. And one of the things that she says and provides research to back it up is, and it's this cliche that we're all aware of, but nobody on their death bed says, I wish I would've worked more, and I wish my legacy was built around my achievements. Everybody, uh, wants their legacy to be when, when, when everything comes into perspective in those last moments. What everybody wants to be remembered for is the quality of their relationships. And what people want to be said about them in a eulogy is that man, he loved, she loved well, and, and this person was present and this person, you know, was there for me. And this person, you know, cared for me and was kind and compassionate. And there, you know, it's, it's just, we just know from experience that you can have accolades, achievements, letters behind your name. Death's gonna take it all away from you. And the one thing that that will last forever is, is, you know, how, how did you do relationships? And that's what brings meaning and value to life. So, um, there's a quote, let's, let's bring it back to loneliness. There's a quote in the first chapter of, of Rich and Jim's book, the Relational Soul, where they're talking about loneliness. And they basically ask this question, what, what does our loneliness tell us about ourselves? And here's the quote, at the core of our being is this truth. We are designed for and defined by our relationships. Cliff, you said that earlier. We were born with a relentless longing to participate in the lives of others. Fundamentally, we are relational souls. We cannot not be relational. In fact, all of our knowing is interpersonal in that it emerges from a soul that is structured relationally. We cannot exist well without connection and communion with another relational reactivity. Alienation is death for the soul. This is a truth that cuts across all nine Enneagram types. Even, even you type fives out there, right? Who are listening and thinking, well, I'm quite fine being alone. Um, well, there's some truth in that, but there's a difference between solitude and isolation. Like it's fine if you need a little more solitude than other people, and solitude is a very healthy and essential practice, but isolation is death to the soul. And, um, and it's devastating no matter your Enneagram type. So we all desperately need skills and tools that can help us live in alignment with this relational design that, you know, you guys are talking about and, and tools that help us do relationship in a meaningful and deep way. And this is really truly what the Enneagram, I think if we're using it correctly, this is what the Enneagram is trying to help us do. So, cliff, Sally, Brian, you know, all three of you, uh, and all four of us have been using this tool for, for some time now. The question I wanna lay on the table is, what is it about this

The Enneagram helps build healthy relationships

Adam 35:13

tool? What is it about the Enneagram that makes it such a helpful tool for relationships? And, and so if I'm a listener tuning in, how would you encourage the listener to use this tool to foster healthy relationships? And I don't care who goes first, you can all start talking at the same time if you want. Um, but who, yeah, who would like to jump in?

Sally 35:36

I will, I'll be, I'll go first. You know what, cause I was thinking about this question and because I've always understood, I guess, um, because I, uh, have was taught and understand the Enneagram What does this look like for each type? As a tool that is for, it's about your relational world. Like that's literally kind of what it's capturing. And so, um, but you know, one of the things I love about it for relationships and for relational as a relationship coach, um, for, for just helping with, um, sort of transformation in this process. Um, I think we see it really operative in with, um, in any great coach and, and you know, we need something if we're going to change to, to live toward. Um, and I think the Enneagram gives us that, you know, to help a young basketball player improve. They don't just need to hear mostly what they're doing wrong. Because they're doing a million things wrong. Maybe even most of what they're doing is wrong or unhelpful. They need to hear and focus on what right and good look like. And the Enneagram, I, I love it because it gives us this, um, tool that not only exposes and helps us have language for what might be going wrong and is painful in our relationships, which is what often brings us to the conversation. Um, but it casts a vision of sorts, um, sort in our, in the virtues and the core desire. It kind of, it, it casts a vision of h offers hope and kind of helps us live towards something, practice this, um, so that we can focus on, on sort of growth and, and, and change and what God's calling us to focus on the invitation. And, um, and I just that I love that. I think it's so effective, um, in the work that we do.

Adam 37:30

Yeah. Well said.

Cliff 37:32

That's really good. Um, yeah, I, I think from my vantage point, one of the most important things I've learned in how to use the Enneagram is I never, um, You know, one of the ways Crosspoint uses it is we, we do leverage a test, right? We use, uh, a particular profile, um, that we have found to be fairly accurate and helpful and in sort of navigating how a person, a self-assessment, right? Somebody, somebody answers 200 questions and rates themselves in these areas and it spits out some results. Now, again, depending on your stream of Enneagram training and learning, for some people that may not be the approach that they would take. That's the approach that we take and the approach we use at Crosspoint. And so one of the ways we talk about what the numbers on the page, right? Those numbers are telling a particular story. And that story is a self-reflective story. It's a self, it's, it's how you see you in. In relationships. And what's so important in the work with the Enneagram is that we don't take that story out of the context of your, your real life, right? Your, your sort of, it can become an idealized version of self if we're not careful, and we have to keep it embedded in real life so that there's a, an actual, uh, definition version of who you are in relationship. And so sometimes we talk about the, the, there's these three strands that need to be woven together when it comes to the Enneagram. And one is sort of the story of your self assessment, right? How you see you, uh, in relationships. And then there's the story of relationships, which Sally was talking about earlier when she was talking about maturity. There's that story as well, the story of how others see you in relationship, right? And that's a story that you have to be willing to ask. How do you, how do other people experience you? And if, if your version of you, your idealized version of self is, uh, or your, your version of self is sort of idealized, then you have that. You gotta, you gotta deal with that, right? That's not gonna go well for you long term. Um, then the third story is the story of your narrative. In other words, we don't believe like that self-assessment and the way you do relationships with other people that you work with, or people that you are in church with, or people that you, um, your neighbors. The way that your neighbors experience you, uh, is again, a story, the way you see yourself as a story. But then there's also another story, and that is the story of how you learn to. And the narrative. Right? And Dan Allen's done a ton of amazing work on story stuff and helping people kinda identify themes in their story. We talk about, uh, rich and Jim have taught the process of life mapping. We encourage people to do life maps and just sort of, there's the genogram I that people can bring into this. And all of that sort of gives way to, um, you know, a, a more robust context in which you can leverage these, these nine style, like the, the nine styles make great Instagram posts. And, and people laugh at them, and people, you know, are like, oh my gosh, that's so true about me, or you, or the way that we get, the way that we relate together. But if you take all of that out of the context of some sort of like, you know, those three stories that I'm talking about and they're not consistently woven together. Then I think the Enneagram gets the, you know, the, the reputation to be used, as many have said before me as a sword or a shield, right? A way to protect myself from having to deal with myself or a way to, uh, react against you in an effort to protect myself. And again, self-protection is not the goal of the Enneagram. It's to identify those, those, um, those strategies of self-protection. And then, as Sally said, have something to live toward in healthy relationship. But you don't really get that, I don't think. If you don't have other people in community with you helping you get, navigate it, number one. And then number two, if you are not ever, if you've never told your story, I think it's really hard for you to, to really apply the, the richness of the Enneagram without having some sort of, you know, time where you can sit and just talk, tell the whole story of how you became you.

Adam 42:15

Yes, yes. Gosh, so good. Brian, anything stirring in you?

Brian 42:22

Uh, that all resonates and hits home for me. Um, I think for me, when we talk about the Enneagram and healthy relationships and how it helps is just, I love what you said earlier about how solitude and isolation are different,

Adam 42:35

I.

Cliff 42:35

Yeah.

Brian 42:36

you know, and 2020 was a grand global issue of absolute isolation and fear of not knowing what comes next, which is just a recipe for disaster for all of us, right? So I think it brought into really clear focus for some, and really deep repression for others of having to face ourselves because it's all we had to look at and work with. Um, and it's interesting how, for some people who are married or living in. Roommates or fam, whatever the situation is, that you could still feel really alone because you're so isolated from yourself. And I think for me, where the Enneagram in relationships really comes to life is the scripture that I love to use a lot when I'm teaching the Enneagram is first Corinthians 12. And just this idea of the body of Christ that we are made and designed to fit together. And we can't say to each other, I don't need you.

Adam 43:28

Oh, love that line. So good.

Brian 43:30

if we will just wake up to the idea that it only works when we fully show up. So for our nines who just want to go along with everyone else, for our fives, who love to be by themselves or for, you know, whatever it is, it's like when you show up as your full self, as your true self, as your new self, um, then you bring the gift of what you're intended to do and fulfill in this whole body of Christ. And when you don't show up, we miss that. Our relationships are less than because we don't show up with our full self or because we're hiding behind something else or because we are feeling lonely or sad or angry or something else is impairing those relationships. Um, so when we are able to learn and recognize how we show up differently so that we be, become integrated, not just with ourselves, but with each other, with Christ at the head, then man, what a gift it is.

Adam 44:28

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Brian, what I'm hearing, what I'm hearing you say is that, I mean, one way to answer the question, how, how does this tool help us foster deeper connection and healthy relationships is this tool helps us show up. I mean, if I'm not here, I can't, I can't be with you. I can't. If I'm not present, then I can't be with God. God, God may be with me, but I'm not with him. I'm somewhere else. I can't be with you either. I can't actually do relationship apart from presence and emotional encounter. So I love it. And I think to rephrase it, what I'm hearing all of you say, if I could summarize it, is why, why is this such an effective relational tool? Because it it, I mean, one way to answer it is it gives us the gift of self-awareness, which Jesus is always aiming at, right? Like we can talk about the speck in other people's eyes, but until we see. The stuff in us that's getting in the way of, of, of, of us loving others, of us receiving. Let's talk about first receiving love, the stuff that's in the way of us receiving love so that we can then give love the stuff that's in the way of us, uh, developing healthy, secure attachments and, and, and appropriate boundaries and trust with, with, with people. Until we, until we address those logs in our eyes, those blind spots, uh, those are the things that are gonna continue to get in the way of relationships. Rich, rich used this metaphor with me when I first sat down with him. He, he said, see all this stuff talking about, you know, some of the dysfunctional stuff, uh, that, that a, a type six can embody, which rich is a six. So he said with a lot of empathy, cuz he gets it. Um, he said, this is the sand. In the relational gears that's jamming, jamming up your relationships when I wanted to make it about everybody else, right? Like, well, but every, but these other people have hurt me. Which is, there's truth in that, but, but Rich is like, yeah, but this is the stuff that the spirit's inviting you to see. And, and so kind of the idea is the Enneagram sort of shines a light on those blind spots, but but also doesn't, doesn't just leave you there, but also kind of highlights some of the gifts of each type that you bring into relationship. Um, the ways that you bless others and the ways that you can only you can, can uniquely love others. And so this may be a bit, um, audacious of a goal. Uh, but I wonder if, I wonder if we could, I wonder if we could take, you know, 60 seconds on each type and, and, and just do a quick walk the wheel. Brian, maybe you could lead us and, and let's just talk about. What does this look like for each type? What does it look like for each type to, with this awareness, begin the journey of putting off these negative relational patterns and putting on and living into these healthier relational patterns. Brian?

Brian 47:22

Yeah, I love it. Um, and I, and I take it from the point of view of like Ephesians four, right? Take off your former way of life, your old self corrupted by its deceitful desires, be renewed by the spirit of your minds, put on your new self created in Christ, right? So for each type,

Type 1

Brian 47:38

for the one to put off, take off your old self, your core weakness of resentment, which just continually leads to frustration, dissatisfaction, criticism, resentment, judgment, being angry with yourself and with others, and put on your new self in Christ that Christ satisfies your core longing to know that you are good, you're forgiven through Christ, his righteousness is credited to you. You don't have to be perfect because he was. Um, anything anyone wants to add?

Cliff 48:09

Well, I, I will, real quick, I'll say something about the one it it is that. And, and this is true about all nine types. And, and sort of like piggybacking a little bit on what Adam said, I wanted to say some, something about that, like the journey of self clarity for each of the styles is the journey of learning to agree with God about yourself. That's how I'd say it. The journey of learning to agree with God about yourself. Cuz if you disagree with God about you, then you're gonna disagree with God about other people and it's gonna be a hell, you're gonna have a hell of a time trying to figure out how to do relationship right? Because you first have to learn to see yourself the way God sees you. Because if you don't see yourself the way God sees you, you're not gonna see other people the way God sees them. So we start by asking the question, how do I see God seeing me? Uh uh, David Benner I think is one of the ones that really invites people on that journey, right? Of self clarity. How do I see God seeing me? So then that can adjust the way I see me and then adjust the way I see you seeing me. And furthermore, adjust the way I see you. Right? So that is that, that sort of first John four kind of thing. Like you can't, there's gotta be integrity in that process. And so for the style one, I would say one of the ways that I, I would challenge the one is and invite them is, I, I say this all the time to the, to the ones that I love in my life. I don't want them to stop making judgements. They like their judgments are good. And I think sometimes they get a bad rep for being judgmental

Brian 49:41

Hmm.

Cliff 49:41

and perfectionistic. But my gosh, do we need judgment, right? Like, do we need discernment in our world? Because if everything's gray and everything, there's not any sort of black and white trouble

Adam 49:53

Yes. Yeah.

Cliff 49:55

cliff there's and. we've gotta have reformers who are making judgements. I just don't want them to sort of overplay the gift outta self-preservation, right? And so what we're wanting them to do, we talked about curiosity for the style one, that if the one can focus on, and here's what we mean by curiosity. You can still make a judgment, but just try to suspend your judgment long enough for something fresh to come into view, something new. Can you learn something new before you make your judgment? And if you can practically start slowing down that process, or you know, in psychology terms, sort of opening that window of tolerance between the stimulus and the judgment, right? Then you are gonna be able to sort, you're gonna see a whole world of new things and new fresh ideas that come into view and, and God by his spirit as he sort of breathes those new ideas into your heart and your mind and your body. Then the judgmentalism is begins to sort of take on shape, the shape of Holy Spirit discernment rather than this sort of reactive, rigid judgmentalism. So I always encourage the one, please don't stop judging, but just judge with curiosity because that, that, that is a whole new world.

Brian 51:13

Thank you, uh,

Adam 51:15

Brian. I can tell. I can tell

Brian 51:16

oh man, it's lightened up all kinds of stuff For me, it, it's such a liberating thing for a one to hear is please don't stop judging because it's more often than not done with the intent to help and to serve and to improve the greater good and so often is misinterpreted or misjudged in, in the judging. Um, so thank you so much for sharing that cliff, uh, for me personally. And I know for all the ones who are out there listening, cuz we have a strong percentage of ones who are out there for that. Um, that is really helpful. Thank you. Um, and to build on what you said as well, it's like you guys would have no idea of knowing this, but Adam and I recorded, you know, last week's episode talking about Matthew 22. Love the Lord your God with everything you have and love your neighbor as yourself. Meaning if you can't love your yourself, you can't love someone else.

Adam 52:05

Mm.

Brian 52:06

So this idea of being able to put on our full and true self in order to do that because if we disagree with what God thinks of us, we're, we're sure to disagree with a, a lot of other things. Um, so thank you for that Cliff. Moving on to our tight twos, if you can put off your core weakness of pride,

Sally 52:24

Mm-hmm.

Brian 52:25

which is not what we think of when we think of that sense of the word, but the pride that leads you to seek constant approval and validation from others. This idea that you have what it takes to serve and fulfill everyone else's needs to know that through Christ you are accepted and worthy. And so therefore put on the good news that in Christ you are wanted and loved. You're so valuable that he laid down his life for you, you are his beloved child. And just how that good news frees us up.

Sally 52:55

Hmm.

Type 2

Sally 52:58

Twos, um, I'll an, I'll talk about twos a little bit, but, you know, I, I just in a similar way Yes. Cliff, sort of, we wrote some of these thoughts down here, but, you know, we don't want the two to stop loving, like, and

Brian 53:12

Mm-hmm.

Sally 53:13

And, and, and doing what they do with their warm, inviting, just knack for knowing exactly what's needed. Like, we don't want them to stop doing that. We just want them to serve, um, and sort of love with limits. And, um, you know, so often I think toos are, they just aren't able, often it's so hard for them to think about their own needs, right? Like, if, if you've ever asked to choose, so what do you need? They like, like gets, you know, it's just so hard. I don't know. I haven't thought of that. But, but the denial of those needs, you know, really demand that you either live as a superhero or a martyr, and neither one of those have good endings. And so, in, in, so, you know, with twos, it, it set, it seems like a sweeping kind of statement, but if we're thinking about like re like reactivity, relational reactivity and how to sort of like, what's one thing that we could sort of open up or, or, or what, what have you? I just, I feel like it's what, what would it mean for two to love with limits and then also to perhaps explore their limits. Um, and by limits, um, I mean needs.

Adam 54:24

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, that's so good. Each one of these could be, uh, its own episode. That's really what I wanna do is come back and record all.

Brian 54:32

that's true.

Cliff 54:33

lemme, I'll lemme quick caveat. One of the things emphasize in our use of Enneagram and, and that sort of, this idea of putting off, putting on. And, and in my words, agreeing with God about yourself is that, so sometimes be, the way the Enneagram can be leveraged is people just see this strategy that they've, they've overplayed, right? Their gift, they've overplayed the gift essentially is what's happened. And so in our journey, on the journey, what can often happen is there's this sort of like, just unplug from the gift. Like if you just stop doing that so much, you just need to like, you just need to set boundaries. Well, I understand the idea and the, the motive behind helping someone set boundaries, but we really wanna be careful to not take away that whole strategy that they've used without giving them something to kinda put in its place. And so we're, we're, we're still, we're, you know, we're all trying to figure it out how to, we're doing the best we can and that we don't do it perfectly. But what we do want to do is make sure that they feel freedom to still exercise the gift. But exercise the gift in relationship rather than in isolation, as you said earlier, Adam. So when the one is making their reform, we want them to do it in connection, in relationship. When the two is loving and serving, we want them to love and serve with the question of like, you know, other people connected to them rather than, as Sally said, a superhero or a martyr. Those are, that's a great image and picture. So we want them to keep using the gift, just start to use the gift in connection, which will help temper it, right, will help bring the temperance that, that is often needed to sort of bring it into, to more, uh, balance.

Brian 56:19

Yeah, that's really helpful.

Type 3

Sally 56:22

mm-hmm.

Brian 56:22

Um, our type threes. Put off your core weakness of deceit, which fools you into believing that you are only the image that you present to others, right? You have all the value, success, and status that you already need in Christ. So put on the truth that Jesus satisfies your heart's core longing to know that you are loved just for being you and not for what you do. Christ sees every hidden part of you, and you are free to be your authentic and true self as his cherished child. So how does that reality change the way that a type three relates?

Adam 56:59

Cliff Sally, I just, all I wanna do is hear from you.

Cliff 57:01

Okay, well, I'll say what, what I don't want three to stop doing is winning. I want threes to win. I really do. So I want them to win and help others win because that's what, that's what they're. They're gifted to do so. What I want them to do though is, is in the transition of healthy relationship, is to learn again, to win in relationship, which means they also have to lose in relationship because threes don't win every time. They, they, they're not, they're, they're humans and they often can get pegged to be, be, be dehumanized. They become dehumanized oftentimes because there's such an emphasis on performance and winning in our culture, right? So we dehumanize each other in our, especially American culture, which kind of has that three stuff going on in spades. And so the dehumanization of a three, I wanna humanize a three by saying, Hey, I still, you're a winner and I'm gonna encourage you to win, but I want you to also be able to lose in relationship just as much as you win in relationship. And so I want to give them the space to lose and know that they're still loved. And so a lot of times what I'll do for three is I'll have them. Tell their story and have them make a list of their losses. Because if you talk to a three and you hear their story, most of them, their early childhood years are fraught with loss. And essentially something happened for them where they decided they didn't wanna lose again. And they, they do everything in their power to win every, everything they put their hand to. And so, and losing is not an option. Right. Um, my daughter, one of my daughters recently said this, failure is not an option. Why would anyone want or to, if they can avoid it, why would they ever do, you know, anything to, like, she's like, it's just not an option. And in one sense, I understood her heart, but at the same time, she's setting herself up. Right. And, and we're asking ourselves as parents, like, what have we done? You know, to, to help her believe she can't fail, you know, we want her to be, um, and for threes, I think that's an important thing. You can fail. You can lose and still be loved. Yeah.

Brian 59:08

Yeah, that's helpful. Thank

Adam 59:11

So good.

Brian 59:12

Um, I wanna add something, but I also wanna be conscious of time. But I'm gonna go ahead and add it. Uh, we can edit it later if we want. Um, I'm about to out myself as a huge nerd, but there's your story. Cliff reminds me of Star Trek, the old old one with Spock and Kirk, and it's like when they're at the academy, part of the whole piece there, them coming together is this idea that Captain Kirk bypasses the whole test of becoming a captain by cheating on the final test that everyone is supposed to lose. The whole point is to fail, and that's how Spock designed it. And the fact that Kirk bypasses and somehow cheats the system so that he comes out on top and wins the fake virtual battle means that he wins, but it means he missed the whole point of the lesson of failing.

Cliff 1:00:03

Yeah.

Brian 1:00:04

And I think that's really powerful. For threes, it's like, yes, please keep winning, but also please keep learning from the failures are, are inevitably going to come and have something really important hidden in there for us.

Cliff 1:00:15

Yeah.

Adam 1:00:15

Yeah. That's great.

Type 4

Brian 1:00:17

Um, so type fours put off your core weakness of envy, which makes you feel defective or flawed, and that others possess what you lack. Because through Christ, you are perfectly whole and understood and put on the good news that in Christ you are seen and loved for exactly who you are, how he designed you and made you and know that he delights in you, his authentic and cherished creation. So how does that good news shape the way that a Type Four relates to others and to themselves?

Sally 1:00:51

You know, I think gratitude is, you know, just, it's often the practice we, we talk about for fours, at least here at Crosspoint. It is. And, you know, gratitude being that the appreciation of truth, beauty, and goodness. And, and I think it's, it's such an important, um, I think for four, sometimes we ask the question, what's not missing? Um, to our four friends, to myself, hello. Um, but I don't want fours. The fours. I don't want myself or the fours in my life or the fours out there on the show. I don't want you to stop feeling the highs and lows. Like, it's okay. Like you're created. Somebody has to be able to, to sit with sorrow and not look away like, you know, and feel the celebration. Like it's a beautiful gift. Jesus was a man of sorrows. Um, to be able to see the beauty and what shines about people and also embrace the sorrows and the, the, the tragedy of life is just, it's a beautiful gift. So I don't want you to stop doing that, but I just want you to know that you can find balance in the ordinary spaces of your life and gratitude can help you figure out what those spaces are. For you in particular, what is it that, that's just small and, and mundane that I can see that as a gift from God today? Um, that can help ground me and sort of anchor me, um, in my force base.

Cliff 1:02:16

At Crosspoint, we, we don't gratitude's not just an idea or like a posture. It can be right, but we're very intentional in that. Gratitude is a tool, like is a means of expressing. It needs words, just like feelings, need words, gratitude needs words. And if you don't actually put words to your gratitude, it's possible that you really may not be. Really experiencing it to the depths in which you need to experience it. So we want, we want to give people a tangible tool to use. We have a gratitude journal here at Crosspoint. We, we sell on our website. And it's a simple journal. And it's just a journal for 30 days of some gratitude for something good, something true, and something beautiful. And each day putting words to that, writing that out, what is it that I'm thankful for? That's good. That's true. That's beautiful. All in an effort to help you not just, not just sort of enjoy, as Sally said, the, the, the, the pain of life. Right. But also, To appropriately. I think the more gratitude you express, the more grief you're gonna feel. But it's actually, you're able to grieve with hope, and that's what fours need is they need to be able to cry, but cry with hope rather. And, and the only way to cry with hope is to express gratitude in the, in the off times, right? So there's gotta be this balance of grief and gratitude that makes up the, the life of the four. And that's really how the journey I think, of shifting and changing, putting off and putting on really happens, uh, is through the, the balance of grief and gratitude at the same time.

Brian 1:03:51

Yeah. That's beautiful.

Type 5

Brian 1:03:53

So type five put off your core weakness of avarice or greed, which leads you to withhold your presence, your knowledge, your needs from the world, for fear of being drained of your resources. Because through Christ, you have all the energy and the wisdom you need. So put on the good news that your needs are not a problem. Christ sees you. He loves you. He will always take care of and provide for you. And his living water will never run try. So how does that good news impact a five's way of relating?

Cliff 1:04:25

Yeah, that, that idea that your needs are not a problem. I love that. That line for the five and. And that as those needs are met, right? Like we, we say all the time, you can't give away a gift you haven't received. And so, you know, as the, the virtue for the five is this idea of generosity. We, we talk about it, it's like a generosity of, of head, heart, and body, right? It's not just, don't tell me what you just, just what you know, but like kinda show up with the presence you were talking about earlier, Adam. And so we want to, we wanna help the, the five sort of receive the gift of, of knowledge, but also like the freedom to feel their feelings in relationship with God and the freedom to sort of express physiologically even with God, right? And that, that's a journey for f I mean that's a hard journey and I get that. But as they learn to be able to express their needs to God, that in turn his generosity to them is what inspires their generosity to others. And one of the ways I'll, I say for the five, it's like, look, I don't want you to stop investigating things and finding out more information. Okay, keep going. Like, that's fine. But what I do want is to investigate. I want your investig, I want you to share the results of the investigation, right? Like, like just keep going, but then share it. Like investigate for the good of others, not just yourself. I want the details of the, the investigation to be able, uh, to be shared with all the other people who missed the details, right? Who are kind of just going through life a lot. Like with, with, with more heart and and gut instinct. Uh, their head instinct. Is really, um, powerful, but we just need 'em to share, you know? And so, uh, I like, I like the idea, just share the details of the investigation, do your investigation, but come back and, and give a report and that will really help us all, uh, sort of experience your generosity. And when a five is generous, I mean, you said it earlier, Adam, when each of these types expresses their gift, they do it better than anybody else. And when a, when a five is generous with their whole self, it is like, it's magical. It is so magical to, to experience that sort of security. The security of their, as you said, their needs mattering to God is beautiful, really beautiful.

Brian 1:06:52

Yeah.

Type 6

Brian 1:06:54

Type sixes put off your core weakness of anxiety, which causes you to constantly get caught up in worst case thinking, or every case thinking and planning through Christ, you are completely loved, provided for, and protected. So put on the good news that in Christ you are safe and secure. The all powerful God of the universe sent his only son for you, and you can take rest in his strength. The Holy Spirit will guide you in a confusing and chaotic world. So how does this empower a type six to relate

Sally 1:07:25

Mm. You know, I love to talk about the word. Um, we often say courage. Courage is associated with the six, right? As the virtue. Um, and we, we like to talk about that courage as surrendering to the middle way. Um, what we mean by that, it's rooted in the story of, you know, the fellows who ended up in the furnace and, and it was bow or burn, right? Those were the choices. It was like you either choose to bow or you choose to burn, but instead they found the middle way of courage, which was to trust and believe that God there he's, there's gotta be another way. We can't see which way it is, cuz right now the only options are bow or burn, but we're gonna trust that God's gonna deliver us and there's gonna be a middle way. And so that's the middle way of courage. And so, you know, we don't want sixes to stop feeling afraid. Um, but we want them to share their fear in relationship so that we can experience, so that we can be afraid together and they can share their wisdom and that we can, um, sort of be, find a safe place and be safe together. Um, and so I, I think it's, it's, it's like the one thing, you know, like six is I always hear them talk about so anxious, so afraid, you know? And, and there's like a shame around that, but it's like, yeah, but ooh, but, but fear makes us wise, and so tell me what you're afraid about. And, um, but being willing to share that is, is a vulnerable thing, um, for, for a six. And so, um, but it's a courageous, it's a courageous act. But, and so I do wonder though, for, for six is about that. Like, it ha there's, I can only see and like I. Um, in all my threat forecasting and all my, like, do, do, do, do, do algorithms. I can only see this option or this option. Um, what, but can we trust and believe that, um, perhaps God will make another way, um, and follow that middle way of courage.

Cliff 1:09:21

I, I love the story of the three Hebrew children and bringing that in for the six because. What is so beautiful about that is that th that is one of the stories in the scriptures where you see courage on display in like a, just a mind boggling way. But they weren't, it wasn't just shaak. It wasn't just Meha, it wasn't just the Ben, it was the three of them banded together, you know? And I like to think one of them was had heart and the other was body. And they were all sort of integrating their gifts and sharing their gifts together, which really inspires, you know, the courage that's needed for, to deal with our anxiety. Uh, anxiety is feeling your fear in isolation. Um, and fear is, but fear is a gift because if you don't feel it, you, you'll burn every time. Or you'll, you'll do, you know, you're gonna be in trouble. But, but if you're willing to feel that fear in relationship with others, then there can be sort of a resilience that's, that's found in the collaboration of the gifts. And when that collaboration happens, then we see that middle way of courage and the six can lead out in that. Because when the six shows courage again, they do it better than any of the other types. They, they shine brighter, more brilliantly than the other types in that space.

Brian 1:10:35

Hmm. Yeah, that's wonderful.

Type 7

Brian 1:10:38

Type sevens put off your core weakness of gluttony, which cause you to try to fill yourself up with new experiences and avoid pain because only through Christ can you be completely satisfied. So put on the good news that in Jesus you have the satisfaction, fulfillment, and contentment that you are thirsty for, and that you will always be taken care of because Jesus is eternal living water. So take rest and joy as his cherished child.

Cliff 1:11:06

mm.

Brian 1:11:08

Anything to add?

Cliff 1:11:10

I, I love that the fulfillment, um, satisfaction and fulfillment. You are, you are thirsty for and you will always be taken care of as a seven. Like, that feels really good and comfortable. And you know, I have found that in Christ there is great comfort and that comfort looks very different than the comfort that I find when I have an extra old fashioned or when I, you know, do, when I, when I go too far in spending my money or something like that. There is a comfort there too, but it's, it's a very different kind of comfort. And the comfort we experience in the satisfaction of Christ is the comfort that we can comfort, we can have joy and sadness at the same time that joy and sadness can coexist pain and pleasure coexist. And, and that is, that's part of living in a fallen world in the, in the sort of cross pressured space between the already not yet right. Is. And the sevens can live in that tension when they're willing, right. To live in sobriety. I define sobriety as my willingness to, to live with joy and sadness at the same time. In, in other words, it doesn't just have to be one or the other. I can see that both are possible and that both can coexist in the presence of Christ and in the presence of people who love me, right? And so I don't, I, I love the joy and energy. I love the idea that enthusiasm, the, the literal definition of the word or the etymology of the word enthusiasm is with God, right? Man, that's, and that's the seven. But they're living life with God in a fallen world, which means that joy and sadness coexist. And when the seven does that, right, when they're co, when they're willing to feel pain and discomfort, but at the same time, experience and, and share the comfort of the good news of God, and as well as the hope that we have and the future. And what a brilliant, beautiful gift and the joy of the Lord, as Sally will say to me, sometimes the joy of the Lord is our strength. And the seven brings that kind of strength. And so for for many of them to put off this sort of gluttony, it just means to just, just embrace that you can. You have God with you like he's with you. And when you do life with him, that's the kind of enthusiasm that really shares the strength of the Lord with those around you, your fam, your

Brian 1:13:34

Yeah. That's great.

Type 8

Adam 1:13:36

So

Brian 1:13:36

And so Sally, we come to you, type eights, put off your core weakness of lust, which leads you to seek intensity and control for fear of being harmed, manipulated, or betrayed. Because through Christ, you are strong and you are protected. So put on the good news that in Christ you will never be betrayed because Christ is your advocate and you can trust him to have your back in your weakness. His power is made perfect. How do you respond?

Sally 1:14:04

Amen. Amen. Basically, yes. You know, eights, I mean, the virtue of an eight is mercy, right? And that's we most, many times we don't. When we're talking about eights, we don't envision them. Has these embodied, merciful people. But, um, I and I, so I love the word meekness for an eight. Um, but I don't want the eight to stop using their strength, um, and their power to, to shield and support and protect the vulnerable and the needy. Um, I just want my heart for eights is I just want them to know they don't have to do it alone. I think that there's of, it's often are some of the most lonely people, um, that we find out there and. And, you know, I, I think also like it's when eights are, are able to, um, share their power with others and empower and like give it away and draw the power out of others. Um, it is, it is a beautiful way to sort of live into the gifted, the gifting and the ability that they have that like, I don't know if anybody else has, like eights have a special connection with power. Usually you walk in the room at, if you're an Enneagram eight and you, you just automatically know where all the power is in the room. Like that there's the power. These are the power players. Like, and, and you can sense like, this person doesn't feel they have power. And so what if we like use it? What if we began instead of just being obsessed with our own power, like what if we did like lean into, um, Noticing what we're aware of in the power world and who, and, and, and drawing power out of others and, um, and just, and, and doing it out of that heart of compassion, right. Which is moving toward that merciful place, um, that, that moves toward others with, with kindness and, um, protection.

Brian 1:15:59

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you.

Type 9

Brian 1:16:02

And to our patient type nines put off your core weakness of sloth, which leads you to suppress your passions, abilities, and worth to avoid conflict. Christ is calling you to bless the world with your full purpose, presence, and perspective. So put on the truth that Jesus satisfies your core longing to know that your presence matters. You can awaken and voice your views, your opinions, your desires confidently knowing that you are Christ's beloved child.

Adam 1:16:33

mm.

Cliff 1:16:34

I love that line that you just said, Brian, you can awaken. And voice your views, opinions, like the voice of the nine is, is the, is the key thing that we wanna really activate and amplify. Because when the nine speaks their desires and their longings, um, it makes a difference in the world. Um, and so often they've just been, they've gotten a pattern, they've had that pattern of, of avoidance. And what I like to help the nine understand is that there's a difference between conflict and confrontation. And conflict is how they've often viewed the world, which there's an o there's gotta be a winner and a loser. And that the word literally means conflict means together against, but confrontation means together face-to-face. And so for the nine, you know, if, if they can sort of begin to understand that, that, that, as they see face-to-face, right, if they show up to God, In this sort of presence that you're talking about, again, Adam earlier, the presence, when they have presence to when they're present to God and God is present to them, it gives them that sort of gift of confrontation. God. Like there's a, there's a, they're, they're together face to face. And when that happens, it gives them a lot of freedom to show up than with their desires to people. And when they show up with their desires to people and they, they find their voice and that sort of awaken those desires and those things are coming out and being expressed that they're, that they're kind of, uh, that does not create conflict. That the nine, when they show up and express their desires, nobody's like, oh my gosh, I guess we have to come under the power of the nine. The the nine. It's, it's, let lemme be clear, like when it's coming from a place of confidence, like confidence in God, confidence meaning together, faithful, in other words, The what, what often happens for the nine is they're confused about themselves. And I call that conceit. Okay. Which means together, deceived internally. The nine is not, they're, they're deceived about who they are. They're not clear. They don't have self clarity. I don't know, I don't know. I don't know what I need. I don't know who I am. I don't know what I want. And they're kind of, they're, they're kind of deceived. And when they show up to relationships that way, the only way to do that is to do it through conflict. And that many times that conflict goes under, under, under until it does it, and then it goes over right for the nine. But I love it when the nine has a sense of self-confidence together, faithful, and then that they bring that confidence to God and God in, and God in turn blesses that confidence. My son, my daughter, like again, I loved your words like, like my power or, or No. What did, what did you say? You said confidently

Brian 1:19:26

await your voice.

Cliff 1:19:27

Christ's beloved child. There's a. A sense of confidence. Like he's like, I'm with you. You're with me. We're together now. Go on the mission, the peace mission that you've been called to, that you're so passionate about. And then when they enter that mission and they enter that mission, they don't have, they don't have to do it through this sort of conflict space. They can do it through healthy confrontation. And I think just giving nines a vision for the difference between those two things is so powerful and helpful because oftentimes they just see it that, that it's gonna go badly. Like it's gonna create more, it's gonna create more war instead of more peace. And what we wanna say is no peace doesn't happen without confrontation. It's required, but it only happens when there's been healthy confidence that's been instilled in you by God and relationships with other people. And a lot of times they've been isolated and withdrawn so much that they have so much internal, uh, sort of ambivalence. That they, they don't know another way. And if they're afraid that if they show up, it's gonna turn into conflict and that's gonna become problematic. So for the nine, I want to give them that vision that there's a difference between those two things. I kinda went long there on that explanation, but I think it's so important for the nine to gain that vision.

Brian 1:20:44

it's such a powerful differentiation though. Um, super powerful, super insightful. Cliff and Sally, thank you so, so much for joining us and giving us a better understanding of how the Enneagram offers us a path to deeper and healthier relationships with God, with ourselves, with others. If our listeners or our viewers wanna learn more about Crosspoint or they want to interact with you, how can they find you or get in touch with you?

Cliff 1:21:10

They can come to our website, crosspoint ministry.com, um, and they can find a number of different ways in which we serve. We have three big buckets at Crosspoint. We have. Intervention, which has traditionally been one of our big biggest buckets. And then we have prevention, which is really our heart for the future, is to do more preventative work with, with, with pastors, church staff, teams, helping them have healthy categories, you know, putting more fences at the top of the cliff rather than spending so much money on ambulances at the bottom.

Adam 1:21:42

Hmm.

Cliff 1:21:42

we really wanna put our energy into that on the prevention side, but you'll find options for intervention coaching, uh, intensives, things like that. Um, and there's no judgment in meeting people there. Please don't hear me. Uh, we want to meet people there for sure, and we'll always meet people there in that space. But we also wanna offer preventative opportunities for churches and staff teams, and then also our educational experiences. SoulCare Institute is one of those. We do some Enneagram workshop trainings as well. Uh, and, um, our dear friend Amy Patrick is sort of leading that charge with Crosspoint and her and Sally have been teaching a lot of the Enneagram stuff and we're really proud of what we offer there. Um, and then also crosspoint enneagram com. Um, that is our other website where we offer, uh, the Webs Enneagram profile presented by Crosspoint. And so you can find out more about that as well.

Adam 1:22:36

Sweet. Thanks guys. It's been been such a, a joy to be with you. Thank you guys so much for, for making the space. We'll have to do it again.

Cliff 1:22:45

Yeah.

Adam 1:22:45

And on that note, I'm gonna go ahead and Brian and I are gonna record the outro separately from you guys. Cause we've already kept,

Brian 1:22:52

But we'll let you go first.

Adam 1:22:53

Yeah, we're, we'll let you go. And, um, you're both just seriously rock stars. I mean, Such a gift. This is gonna bless our audience like crazy. And, uh, I, I would love to bring you on the show again. So, um, but yeah, I know you gotta go, cliff, please

Cliff 1:23:10

Thanks, man. Hey, thank you guys so much. Yeah. It's been a gift to, uh, to, to find new, these avenues of connection with you guys. And Brian, we're really looking forward to having you in s and Adam. Uh, always a gift man to connect so you guys take care and, uh, go Kansas City.

Adam 1:23:28

That's right guys.

Brian 1:23:30

a great

Adam 1:23:31

all later.

Sally 1:23:32

Bye y.

Adam 1:23:32

Bye and so to our listeners and viewers, uh, remember, if you're interested in learning more about the Enneagram, visit our website at www.yourenneagramcoach.com. And if you're ready to take. Take it a step further, uh, with a personalized Enneagram coach. Check out our incredible certified coaches@myenneagramcoach.com. We've made it very easy for you to find a coach there. And for those of you who wanna bless others by becoming a certified Enneagram coach, check out our leading certification program@yourenneagramcoach.com. Our team is here to guide you each step of the way. We'd love for you to join us in blessing others with accelerated transformation using the tool of the Enneagram. As always, the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It is the gospel that transforms us. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you in the next episode.