Introduction

Brian 1:11

Hey everyone. I'm Brian Lee coaching and operations manager at your Enneagram coach And i'm joined by my good friend Adam Breckenridge who is our director of coaching here at YEC. Adam and I have the privilege of working together to serve our community of certified Enneagram coaches. And for the next few episodes We're going to be standing in for our friends Beth and Jeff McCord to host Your Enneagram coach, the podcast. It is our mission to help you see yourselves with astonishing clarity so you can break free from self condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom in Christ. And if you love this content, then turn on automatic downloads or liken subscribe on our YouTube channel and share this with someone who would enjoy or benefit from this content. Well, on today's episode of the podcast, we're really looking forward to talking about the idea of what many refer to as. spiritual formation, which in Christian tradition is the process of being formed and shaped into the image of Christ. And today we're going to be talking with how your Enneagram type informs that whole process of spiritual formation. And our guest today is none other than A. J. Sherrill. A. J. has been serving as the lead pastor for for two decades in churches across the country from Southern California to New York City and is currently pastoring in the Lowcountry of South Carolina. Having earned several master's degrees in theology and a doctorate in the area of spiritual formation, AJ teaches courses on preaching and also the Enneagram at Fuller Theological Seminary, as well as workshops on spiritual formation and personality theory. Most importantly, he's a disciple of Jesus. Husband to Elena, and father to Eloise. And least importantly, Adam, you're gonna love this, he's an unfortunate Michigan fan, thus winning seldom, but often gaining humility. A. J. is the author of the books, Being With God, The Absurdity, Necessity, and Neurology of contemplative prayer. The Enneagram for Spiritual Formation, How Knowing Ourselves Can Make Us More like Jesus and Expansive, Stretching Beyond Superficial Christianity. AJ identifies as a type 3 on the Enneagram. AJ, welcome to the show and thank you so much for being here.

AJ 3:18

Yeah, it's really good to see you both honored for the chat.

Brian 3:21

Um, before we jump into the Enneagram content, would you just take some time and tell us about what you're doing right now? Your current work?

AJ 3:27

Yeah, I'm a, I'm an Anglican priest here in Charleston, South Carolina. I'm new to the Anglican world. I've sort of been a imposter for a long time because, um, I love the Holy Spirit. So, uh, charismatic ministry, uh, has always been really important to me. Uh, that's biblically rooted, but this stream of Anglicanism is, is really, uh, it includes that and also attaches to a deeper tradition. So that's been really big on my own journey of finding historicity, um, along with, um, experience. And so, uh, that's been a big part of my story the last few years of actually becoming an Anglican priest. So, um, I'm a dad, I'm a husband. uh, just celebrated 15 years of marriage. Um, I love, love, coffee. I'm a cliche coffee snob. I, I order it. I don't, yeah. So it's, uh, I've got a couple of methods I prefer. So, um, anyways, I'll host.

Adam 4:20

Yeah. Yeah. Favorite methods.

AJ 4:22

You know, uh, I would say that you can't be a classic pour over it's, it's fresh, but it's also clean. And I know, so, um, you know, the, when I do a French press, it supports both me and my spouse at the same time. So sometimes that's just the best way to go, but I've just spent the month, um, in Tuscany. And so we, all we had was access to an Italian press and that was. I love Italian press, so that's all we could do for a month. And so I've sort of really, it's been the summer of the Italian press for me. So

Brian 4:53

sounds awesome.

AJ 4:55

yeah, I write books. Uh, I got another one coming out, uh, on Christmas, um, about Christmas, uh, a year from this fall, 2024. Um, I'm really passionate to help people, um, rediscover Jesus in his first century context. So, um, I lead a lot of trips to Israel and help people see these places that Jesus walked and what that means in the text and just seeing Christians sort of get their eyes opened of like, Oh, that's why he said what he said. And that's what he meant when he said that, etc, etc. So that's kind of become my real passion um, in the last I'd say decade of my life. So

Brian 5:28

I love that. Thanks for sharing. I love the idea of giving context. I'm always kind of wanting more. It's like, well, tell me what you mean, or tell me why you said there to, where does that come from? Right? Um, AJ, you've written several books as we've already mentioned, and they've been so helpful for both Adam and I, Adam, I think you have them sitting on your desk to hold up for our, our YouTube people. We recommend your work to our coaches all the time. Uh, what have you got? Mm

Adam 5:51

I've got, well, first I read any Graham in the way of Jesus. is a game changer. I don't think I can flip to any page that isn't totally marked up. Yeah,

Brian 5:59

me.

Adam 6:02

yeah. And, uh, and then Enneagram for spiritual formation. And I was also talking before we hit record, it's actually, it's, it's, it's in my, it's next to my chair downstairs, but, um, I actually keep it on me. Several years ago, I read your little, little book, quiet AJ, which is, I think now exists as being with God. It's, it's inside that, that book, right? Being with God, but truly one of the most formative reads for me. And I, I too went through seminary and got, you know, a couple of degrees and read some, some bigger books, that little book, I don't know, like, I don't know why we didn't just, we didn't just work with that little book. That's, that's the little book we should have started with. But, um, yeah, another one of my favorite reads. So really grateful for your work, man.

AJ 6:43

Super kind. Thank you.

Brian 6:45

Um, I think the theme or the thread that runs through your work is that you have a gift, AJ, for writing in a clear and practical way Um, that takes really complicated ideas and distills them and synthesizes them in a way that is easy to digest. Um, and I love the way you do it with the Enneagram and Faith. And you bring them together. So for our listeners or our viewers, would you just kind of share a little bit more about your own journey with how you discovered the Enneagram and how you discovered your type?

AJ 7:17

Well, thanks for the compliment on distilling ideas. I have not felt like I've always been very good at that. That's something I've had to work really hard at. I remember when, um, when we moved from Manhattan to. Grand Rapids. I was a pastor there in Michigan, and I remember someone telling me, Hey, when, when you teach, you need to talk to, um, the plumber on the second row, you're no longer in Manhattan. You need to talk to the school teacher. on the fifth row. and it was one of those like, Oh my goodness, like, yeah, I need to get in touch with the diversity of life experience. And so, not that you can't find that in Manhattan, I guess, but that's been a real work for me because, um, I've not always been very good at that and still feel like I'm growing so much in that. Um, your question though was around the Enneagram. Um, do you mind repeating that just so I don't, uh, take us off track?

Brian 8:09

No, no problem. Just how did you discover it? How did you discover your type?

AJ 8:12

Yes. So I'm sitting in a class for my doctorate a decade ago and maybe more. Um, I'm with my friend, Mark Scandrett, uh, who's out in San Francisco, wonderful writer and thinker. And, uh, we've done Enneagram stuff together a lot in the past. And, um, he, we're in a, a a monk named Richard Rohr was, was facilitating the class. And, um, he, Mark said, Hey, um, father roar, talk to us about the Enneagram and would, you know, for a day and a like a day and a half, we got him off task and we just got him to talk to us about the, which he had written decades before on the Enneagram for, I forget what it's called for, you know. I don't even remember what his book was called, But Mark had read that one and it was my first exposure to it. And I was like, wait, what? And what I liked about it was, um, he was talking about, um, relating to our personality through our brokenness and not just through our beauty. You know, a lot of personality theory, well, it's behavioral rather than motivational. I like Enneagram because it's more about motives. It's what's underneath the thing that's underneath the thing. You know, you're talking about context a minute ago, Brian. Because that's what's underneath everything. And there's a context for our behaviors and it's, it's our motives. Well, so much of my life was in the behavioral side, not the motive side, and I like this because it exposed my brokenness, not in a way that was shameful, but in a way that's like, hey, that's there, and maybe you should attend to that because maybe there's healing and transformation that God wants for you in those places, not to just sacralize what you're good at and where you're beautiful. but also to really pay attention to where there's brokenness and where healing wants to come. So that was the real access point for me, that as Father Aurora was talking, it was like, oh wow, I really relate to what he's saying because it's confronting all the things I want to avoid. And when I confront them, what I find is I'm not met with a God who's wagging a finger, But a God who's inviting me into further Christ likeness. And so there's grace and love and embrace there. And so I came home and just like could not read enough about this thing. And it was helpful for me pastorally as well to understand diversity of personality in my congregation. And then I got this little sneaky invite, um, from a friend of mine. Who, um, was hosting a workshop in Greenwich. So Ian Cron was hosting a workshop when he was up there with a woman named Suzanne Stabile. And no one, this was before they wrote the road back to you. And they had done a little beta test shop with this workshop that I came to. And they said, yeah, we may turn this into a book called the road Back to you. And I was like, well, yeah, let me know if that ever comes out. Right. And. And I, I ran up to Suzanne at the break and I said, look, I'm about to do my dissertation. Who is doing work on spiritual formation, like historic Christian practice with this theory of how we grow? And she said, to my knowledge, within like the stream of the church, no one that I know of. And so since then, obviously, Del Cajun came out with a wonderful book on that, and many, many people have. And it's been, um, but at the time, there was just not a lot there. So that was a big movement for me to say, I'm going to give, um, a year to really getting my hands under this thing and to see if it can be helpful for the church. So that's where, that's where we are. Yeah.

Adam 11:31

Love it. Yeah. Thanks for sharing a little bit about your journey, AJ. It's, that's usually, that's usually the, that's usually the testimony, right? Of people who discovered the Enneagram when, when they, when they discover their type, it's a little bit of a, it's a little, it's a vulnerable journey. So there's a, there's a process of humiliation. There's a process of shame. It's, it's, it's, I have, I found that in my own journey, it was, it was it was terrifying and wonderful because the one thing I really want and long for I think we all do as humans is to be seen, but truly known and loved. It's also the scariest thing possible to be truly seen. So I felt very exposed discovering all of the vulnerabilities of being a type six, um, as well as the gifts, even having to walk through some shame to embrace the gifts of the six. So, uh, just, yeah, your personal testimony resonates with me deeply. Um, I also think it's funny that you got Richard Roar, a type one, I believe off task uh, that, that to me is,

AJ 12:32

I think he's at an age where he's like, I don't even care anymore. Whatever you want to talk about. No, but I mean, to, to what you were saying, I think, I think the, the first place to begin with the Enneagram, for anybody is, is to ref is to remember that you're not a number, you know, um, it, And it's also this idea that your personality is not your identity. Your personality is a strategy.

Adam 12:56

Yeah.

AJ 12:56

that helps take the edge off of like, Oh my goodness, this is what I do. It's like, yeah, it is. It's not who you are. Like underneath all of that, there's a belovedness. There's an image that is God and That needs, Um, curation in order to gain further access into that for you to live out truly who God says you are in this world. And when people discover that their Enneatype is not their identity, it's a personality and that their personality is not an identity. It's a strategy to cope and thrive in a beautiful and broken world. Well, that changes things now I can poke around and that feels so threatened, right?

Adam 13:29

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's actually where I want to go next. I love that you bring that up because You start, you start your book, uh, the Enneagram and Spiritual Formation with this line of, I hate the Enneagram, which is a great line, uh, that catches you off guard when the title of the book, uh, has something to do with the Enneagram. Obviously you go on to explain later. You say, I love the Enneagram, but you go on to explain what you mean, which is that you don't like how reductionistic this has become for many people. And, um, you, you wrap up that the the opening of the book but. by telling your readers that these scripts we write and believe for ourselves are not our identity. So, you know, and you've already kind of taken us there in the conversation. But would you would you share more about what. What identity is and and how that provides a solid root system for us.

AJ 14:21

Yeah, so I I like to imagine and this is an enneagram for spiritual formation, I like to imagine life as kind of like a tree And so trees are just ubiquitous in scripture. It's amazing how much God compares life to trees. And so we can learn a lot from them, I think. Um, and so like our identity is our root system. So imagine yourself as a tree and your root system is What's the core it's what everything comes out of that. And how goes the roots determines how goes the tree. So if the roots suffer, the tree's going to suffer. And so you feed the root. We often, obviously we see what's on the, external, we see the leaves, we see the trunk, we see the bark, we see the fruit, and we think that's the tree. And what's really the essence of the tree is the root system. Um, and within that root system comes the, the trunk, you know, you get this. amazing the way that out of seemingly nothing, a tree can grow this strong system of support. and from that, that I would say that is, um, your personality, it comes out of that root system of your identity from there, you have gifts and you have manifestations and behaviors of life and that's your, your leaves and your fruit that you bear in this world. but it all begins with the root and the root that is true about us, at least that the scriptures are telling us it is true, is that you are a child of God and that there's nothing you can do to make God love you anymore. And there's nothing you can do to make God love you any less. That doesn't mean sin doesn't exist. It's not relativizing that. It's just to say, like, at the core, like, your belovedness is not up for negotiation.

Adam 15:53

Yeah, there's secure attachment, right?

AJ 15:55

God says that I love you, that I love you, that I love you. And that secure attachment is what can give us bravery to poke around and to repent and to grow and to change. Um, and so, um, and I'm not advocating necessarily like a universalism either here or some sort of bland spirituality. I'm just saying like the way God created us in Genesis seems to be God saying, I want to create. Someone that, that reminds me of me and through the course of brokenness, we sort of lose our way and need to come back to that, that essence and, and be pruned and grown into something shaped that looks like the kingdom of Jesus. So, um, so that, that I think is really good news as we talk about the Enneagram.

Adam 16:35

Love

Brian 16:36

I love that. tempted to go on a side trail in terms of identity. you talk about trees. I finished I recently finished the hidden life of trees.

AJ 16:45

Mm hmm.

Brian 16:46

I forget the author's name It's German and the whole thing is translated into English But just the idea of identity and all of this life that we find In the roots, not just in the trunks and the leaves, but all the senses that these trees have, and you talk about identity, and I think of, we're such an individualistic society today. But there's so much about the Bible and about the gospel that is community focused. Um, And this idea, and I'm always drawn to first Corinthians 12 and this idea of the body of Christ and Ephesians and all these Romans, all these other places where it's found and the hidden life of trees being in those roots that communicate with each other, that share life with each other, that feed each other, that do all these things, um, and how you need all these different species and these fungal networks in the rhizomes and all this other stuff. Um, That help communicate and hold up and support and when one is sick, the other one comes in. um, and how much learning about our type, learning about someone else's type helps us to support them better, love them better, do all these things when we assume our true identity, not just like you're saying, these personalities or strategies that we use that are often so misguided because we're looking for something more than we, what we already have.

AJ 18:01

Okay. So the root, what you're hinting at Brian is the root structure. If, if you haven't read that book, or if you've not seen Ted talks on this stuff, there's so much great research on how the roots actually entangle amongst trees and they share resources. And what, what I think is interesting for that from the body of Christ perspective is that means that they're connected at the root level. They're connected at the fundamental essence level. Now what happens I think in our time is we're connected on the external level through social media in terms of our leaves, right, or our fruit. Oh, you have this or you look like that or you went here to this place, or whatever, right? And it's interesting that community right now is being reinvented to be these, associations that find connection based on externals, what's above the soil. And we call that. Friendship, but historically, at least in the church, it's always been what's true about us at the root level, right? And that is such a different way of being, such a different way of thinking about what it means to be in community, not to share hobbies though. That's

Brian 18:58

Mm hmm.

AJ 18:59

But to share our identity and the one who made us like that's where the deepest truest form of community is found. I I once heard someone say you have more in common with a person in Jesus than you do with someone you share a thousand hobbies with.

Brian 19:16

Hmm.

AJ 19:17

like, Whoa, like, what if that's true? And certainly that opens me up for diversity in my life to welcome people in that are

Brian 19:24

thing.

AJ 19:24

You know, as we shared this Jesus together, it's amazing. So,

The Enneagram and Christianity

Brian 19:29

well, thank you. Um, we've heard from a lot of our coaches, Adam and I have both personally experienced, um, receiving pushback from using the Enneagram in our churches. We're both pastors. You're a pastor. We've recorded lots of episodes, written pages of responses and resources. You close your book with an appendix of sorts that kind of lays out your own critique, defense of its origins. We've heard from. lots of very public figures, um, and usually the same names over and over again. Would you be able or willing to share why you choose to use a tool that seems to raise so many questions or issues for a lot of Christians?

AJ 20:06

Yeah. Uh, let me answer your question a little bit backward. If I can. And if I don't scratch the edge, we can come back to it. Um, I always tell people if it's not helpful, you don't have to use it. It's not like central faith. It's, it's an appendage. Um, it was, it was so deeply helpful for me to name what had been unnamed so much of my faith. So if it's not helpful, if you're suspicious, great. It's, it's not orthodoxy. It's not the creed. Like, great, move on, do your thing. But I also want to put the pressure back on the antagonist. In this case, the, the, the sort of fearful Christian, um, to say, Can you give me an example of someone, you know, That ended up worshiping Satan or like wearing crystals because of the Enneagram. And to this day, I, I have not had one person through email, workshops, anything I've done say, yeah, yeah, yeah, my friend, Steve, right? No one I know has done that. And, and is there someone out there? Maybe that, that might be true. I have not. met anyone. So I always want to put the burden of proof back on the critiquer rather than just throwing stones. You need to support your argument with legitimation, some substantive sort of examples to make a case. Um, and you know, I also think people are really suspicious of like truth that comes out of common grace, You know, um, that's not branded Christian, right?

Adam 21:31

You can't chapter inverse it.

AJ 21:33

I think the magi are the clearest example. I think Balaam's donkey is a great example of how god Seems to be comfortable utilizing common grace in the world I think Jesus is the fullest expression of who God is. Colossians 1, 2, I think is true. And I think God doesn't have a problem revealing God's self through all creation. So God has revealed God's self to me and my unbrokenness to me through the Enneagram. So I've utilized that not as an end. The goal of the Enneagram isn't the Enneagram. It's to move us forward toward Christ, Christ's transformation. So, I utilize it as a, as an end, or as a means, not an end. I, I do understand why people get suspicious when it becomes an end. When your whole church becomes the cult of the Enneagram, and you have this new lexicon that you need to speak this if you're going to belong here. I think that stuff is rubbish and it needs to be chucked out. But to have a kind of fear that we're sort of suspicious around its origins because there was a Sufi thing here, or there's, you know, it's like, Well, great. They gained access into what's universally true about the human being, right? We all have tendencies toward different strategies of brokenness, trying to fix ourselves. And, what's wrong with that? Right? So, I wanna, I always wanna put the burden of proof back on the critiquer.

Adam 22:47

Yeah.

Brian 22:47

Man, thank you.

Adam 22:49

Yeah. Really appreciate that perspective. A. J. Thanks for sharing that with us.

AJ 22:53

I won't fight ya for the Enneagram. If you don't like it, I'm just like, great. If it's not, helpful to us, I don't care. No problem.

Adam 22:58

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. A mentor. A mentor. The guy that mentored me in the Enneagram is rich class. I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work. He co co wrote the relational Soul. So rich. I remember him sending me years ago when he first introduced the tool to me. I was just a tad bit skeptical on the front end of like, what is, what is, I didn't know what it was. And, uh, and he, he used this very simple, silly analogy with me. And he said, look, there's a lot of ways that you could go outside and dig in the soil of the ground. You could use a shovel. You could use a garden hoe. You could use a fork. A spoon, if you'd like. I mean, there's a lot of tools. Um, the same is true for, for digging into your own soul and heart and looking within, uh, at places that God wants that where God exists and what is inviting you into. There's a lot of tools, a lot of ways that you can do that. The Enneagram is one of those. And if you don't like it, you don't have to use it. He did say, if you're going to work with me, you're going to have to use it. So, uh, and I'm obviously really, really grateful for for the gift that that has been to me. So, um, I appreciate that perspective. I appreciate you saying, Hey, I'm not an apologist for the Enneagram. It's not. It's not orthodoxy. It's take it or leave it. But also that the gentle challenge there is really, really helpful for that have people explore what it is that they're actually afraid of. So Thanks for that. Um, so, you know, we, we mentioned earlier at the outset that we've been in a mini series, the last several episodes of this podcast on how the Enneagram helps us to grow. And that's where we want to spend the rest of our time together in this episode. You know, when it comes to your area. AJ of expertise. We'd love to hear how you think. this tool helps us grow spiritually. Um, you've obviously done a lot of work and you write and teach often about spiritual practices. So how do you use the Enneagram and integrate it as you talk about spiritual growth? How do you see this as a tool for spiritual formation?

AJ 24:56

Yeah. Well, you can't change what you can't name. So, the Enneagram is the foundation of naming some things that need to be changed in us. For me, it was a massive epiphany of naming. Oh yeah, I think I default. to, to that pattern. That's the mask I wear. Okay, great. Or these are the masks I wear in these types. Great. So that's the first place. And that's why I would say the Enneagram is helpful as a, as a tool, as it means not an end. The goal of the Enneagram isn't to know your number. The goal of the Enneagram is to work your number to have that sort of, you know, what I, I talk about, um, the difference between virtual reality and augmented reality. Well, virtual reality takes you into a different world. That's not what we're trying to do here. We're not trying to take you into some sort of Enneagram world where you can just live in that sort of world and that's all you talk about. What we're trying to do is give you more information about your life so that as you're living, you can become more conscious and aware of what you're doing and why you're doing it and so that you can ask better questions of, wait, what? This is happening again. This person is, is talking to me in such a way that's bringing some things up. I'm more aware now that when that happens, I tend to go back and react. Okay, I know now to keep my mouth shut and just process it more and not be so reactive 30 seconds. That's super helpful. And that helps really change the nature and the trajectory of relationships where you don't have so many sabotaged, fractured relationships because of things that you said that you no longer mean. Um, so for me, that's been a big part of my own transformation is like, it's transformed the way I use speech. It's transformed the way I think about time. In other words, no longer does time exist to fit as much in as it does. As I once thought it was designed for. um, and it's just made me help me step back and to become more patient and allow sort of, um, time to have its place. Um, so for me, the Enneagram has been helpful cause I can name some things that are broken and we realized that within each type, I started asking questions about pastoring of like, you know, I grew up thinking, you know, you go to church. Read your Bible, give some money. and in 30 years, you'll, you'll be, you'll, you'll feel better, you'll feel different. You'll feel changed. I think most people that do that sort of diet after 30 years don't feel changed, they just feel older. And I started to wonder, like, are there certain practices? For each type that might be more helpful than others. You know, there may be some practices that actually could be more hurtful for others than even helpful. And so are there ways in which we can think about the church as needing a different sort of diet and rhythm based on their personality, Because that's going to be more helpful for some than others, like a 365 day reading plan might be more helpful for three and a five. Then it would for like a nine

The 8 Core Emotions

AJ 27:53

or a, six, you know what I mean? Like there might be reasons in our personality that we gravitate to some practices and are sort of repelled by others. There also might be some practices we're repelled by that we're repelled by because we actually need to face them and not avoid them. So there's I think a uniqueness to our spiritual formation that Jesus sees us uniquely. And that we need to take the uniqueness of the human image bearer of God into consideration when it comes to their formation, just like we would most other things. Um, and so that's what a lot of my work has been, is helping people, um, step into a spiritual rhythm, a rule of life. Based on their personality as it moves us toward Christ likeness. Um, and so that's, that's been a lot of what I've been doing for the last, you know, five to seven years.

Brian 28:41

I love it. I love it so much. Um, and you've mentioned diversity a couple of times. I think... another beautiful thing about the Enneagram, especially for pastors and leaders, is having an understanding of the nine types helps you to recognize that there are different ways to hear and interpret the gospel

AJ 29:00

Mm Mm hmm.

Brian 29:01

having different practices that may be easier or harder, more or less helpful based on your own personality, your own motivations that, um, and what does that look like for me, um, before we jump into. All of these practices, I'm recognizing that we may be using terms that people aren't really familiar with or think they should know, but don't know how to define. So would you define for us rule of life and spiritual formation or your definition of it?

AJ 29:32

Oh, here we go. Wow. Okay. I would say a rule of life is a, let's call it a program. Um, I know that can sound kind of clinicky, um, so insert whatever word you prefer in your thesaurus. A rule of life is a, it's a program, it's a, it's a way of, it's a commit, it's a committed way that I'm going to show up And I choose to show up That might be daily, weekly, monthly, annually. I have certain practices that I do on an annual basis that I don't do on a daily basis. I have certain practices that I do daily that I don't do monthly. Um, and so I have designed a kind of program that says over the course of the year, I am committing to, um, To stepping into God's presence intentionally. in this way. these practices are not magic. They are simply, um, trellis. this wood, this dead piece of wood that you can, you can show up to where if you make yourself available, the presence of God will grow in you and through you, and that's like vine coming up. So you have this trellis that you're saying, I'm going to show up and create this, this structure, this program, this construct. And I'm going to believe that by doing it, that mysteriously the presence of God is, is at work And so I'm gonna show up, you know, I think it's Brendan Manning that said 99% of spirituality It's just the act of showing up. Well, what happens in life is we default and we just kind of veer social Our phones are a good example. Have you ever started? By checking email and you end up in social media on reels for half an hour? How did I get here? Well, it's because we veer so much in life spiritual practices are the way in which we keep ourselves tethered in one place and one time allowing ourselves to be attended to by the presence of God. So, um, a rule of life is just your strategy of how and when and where and why you do that. So, um, I'm really, I'm really passionate to help people design that because if the whole thing becomes about the what, well, I'm going to pray. It's all about the what. It's like, okay, that's cool, but why? Like, what's the, what's your why? If you don't know your why, your what will eventually lose steam. You know, I know a lot of people in December that can't wait till January because they're gonna get in shape again. They have their what, but by February they've forgotten their why. And so it becomes really hard to wake up at five in the morning still. And so if you lose your why, your rule of life can sort of devolve into religion. So you have to be careful about that. spiritual formation is this the, it's the process through time by which people become like Jesus. Um, that, that's all it is. It's nothing more, nothing less. It's the idea that change is possible. Growth is not inevitable, but growth is accessible. It's, it's possible. and it's possible when we're intentional. You know, no one ever became like Jesus on accident.

Adam 32:25

yeah, yeah, hey, to that point, you're, you're, you're, you're picking up on the fact that formation is really a human phenomenon. Like it's not just a formation is not just a Christian thing. We're all always being formed by something. The question is not, are you being formed? But who or what are you becoming? What are you being?

AJ 32:44

is so helpful in that world. Yes.

Brian 32:47

That's really good.

Adam 32:48

love that.

Brian 32:49

Thank you. Um, and I like, I like using program, just kind of other words. I think people hear rule of life and they're not sure what to think or what to do with it. I know Rich Valotis talks a lot about it, John Mark Homer, all these guys. I think some people walk away thinking it's like, well, I don't have one or I don't know how to write one. It's the truth is we already have one. It's just what I appreciate about the Anglican church is how intentional things are. you may have an unintentional rule of life that you're already following based on whatever your routine is for the day or the month or the year. And what I love about these spiritual formation practices or setting up and being intentional, like you're saying about setting up a rule of life is that you Can make choices

AJ 33:30

Mm hmm. Mm

Brian 33:31

to make decisions and then take action. Um, so you write about, Oh, go ahead.

AJ 33:36

people will say to me, well, hey, number one, I do think we should make it fresh and shift it in seasons. but people will say to me, well, if I do that, won't I, won't I become religious or won't I maybe won't, won't, won't it not mean much to me? You know, I get the same sort of critique about the sacrament and, um, you know. With that critique, it's like did brushing your teeth become less meaningful? Like, you know, after you started doing it every day, did eating lunch, when do you ever go into lunch? People go, Oh my gosh, I do this every day. It's so awful. It's like, no, it's, it's part of what it means to be human. It's like, what a joy it is that we get. To have lunch and when you don't have it when you miss it, you're like I missed lunch today. I'm starving, Right? That's how we want people to feel. Not about necessarily the practice, but the presence.

Brian 34:27

Hmm.

AJ 34:28

For people to crave the presence of God, that we need God's presence daily And so, how am I going to design my life to put myself in a position to receive the presence of God more, to become more aware of God's availability? That's the sort of goal of the role of life.

Adam 34:51

Love it.

Brian 34:51

Love it. Um, so in your book, and I've heard you talk about it plenty of other times, we can talk about it here. You write about these upstream and downstream practices for each type. Could you share kind of why, and then maybe how you came up with each of these. um, and then maybe we can kind of walk the wheel once for everyone to hear what it looks like for each person or each type.

AJ 35:13

Yeah. So upstream, think about being in a raft. And so if you're gonna hit the river and you're in your raft, your downstream is natural. You don't have to do anything. There's no effort really. It's, it's, it's sort of enjoying. You can lean back and rest and it's, it's what you want to do. It's a joy. It's not a bad thing. Well, your upstream practice means these are like practices you're gonna have to fight for. That you might be avoiding, but you need to explore, why am I avoiding that? You know, why am I avoiding contemplative prayer? Is it because I'm really bad at just sitting in God's presence without doing anything? Well, what's underneath that? Well, maybe I have an idol of performance, and I need to be performing for God, or, or, or learning something. Uh, uh, Or, you know, the, the, these sort of things that we need to poke around long enough to understand what's underneath, why we might avoid something. Um, so each practice, I think, because of your personality, There are certain things that are more or less enjoyable And so, understanding... How each of those form you, the idea isn't to say, well, downstream is almost effortless. So therefore you don't need to do that. And just do the hard things it's like, no, you need to enjoy being God's presence but you also need to realize there are things about your personality that are gonna require some effort for you to show up and to be changed. Like, Working out It's a good analogy, like the way you gain muscle mass is through burning negatives. It's that sort of decent And the bicep sort of, uh, curl that really gains your muscle mass because, you know, holding that out and going against the grain. That's where a lot of formation in your muscles formed. What's the same in your soul? So what we do is we look at each of these types. You know, you look at your vice and your virtue and you look at your fixation. Another way to say fixation is you look it's where you're stuck. Right? So if you look for the one, like a one would say, you know, I really struggle with anger, and I don't, I don't want to be an angry person. I don't want to be an angry dad. I want to be the virtue of the one which can be serenity. And my fixation is I can be resentful. Well, what practices might help you let go of anger more? It might help you be less resentful. And if you can get in touch with what you might do in God's presence that could be helpful to grow you in a way that you're formed so that when you are in the game of life and your child acts up or whatever, you might start responding differently because God's forming you at a soul level where no longer are you just reacting to life, but now you're aware of what you're doing and you can make Better decisions that keeps Shalom happening for between you and your child, right? That sort of thing I think is really important. And that's what people are really craving for is that no one wants to be remembered as an impatient dad, you know, or an unforgiving spouse, right? Or an unforgiving friend. So there are ways in which we can practice that help sort of rewire our neural pathways that help us choose different ways next time we're in that circumstance, if that makes sense.

Brian 38:15

that's great. Thank you.

The Enneagram and Spiritual Practices

Brian 38:16

So if we start, should we just start with the one Adam?

Adam 38:20

Yeah, let's do it. Let's talk about it. Yeah. AJ, you want to give us a run through of just the, just the downs. I mean, if you just wanted to say in a, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to, uh, give us a chapter on each one, but you know, if you want to, if you want to walk the wheel and just say, here's the downstream, here's an idea of what a downstream and an upstream practice could look like for

AJ 38:38

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I can make me work today. Here we go. I'll try to keep it

Adam 38:43

Yeah.

AJ 38:44

I tend to want to like get underneath all these things. Oh, let me tell you a story about Aunt Marge and blah, blah, blah. I'll keep it tight. I know your listeners on a tight span of time anyway, for the one I've already sort of detailed the vice and the virtue and the fixation or where you feel stuck. I think, I think that the, the, the one on the downstream, um, I have found that in my research, Ones need a sort of, um, a sort of journal sort of practice. I find that nature is, for everybody, really helpful, particularly the one, um, because in, in nature, what can happen is the one is so fixed on being perfect. and you realize that the way in which God has created the universe and the earth is like, you just have these imperfect things happening. Let's just take a tree. Like they're just not congruent. And so much of life for the one, you want congruency, you want consistency, you want that perfection, Um, and, and the world just isn't that way. And it reminds you in life that not everything has to be perfect the way in which you wanted it to be. Um, but I, I think that for the one to journal is helpful because it helps you articulate onto paper, like what lives frustratingly in you that you don't often sort of name and what it will help you do is differentiate yourself Like you're not whatever that is Like you can write about it in a way that sort of gets it out to where it's not living suppressed inside of you And so I find that ones find freedom when they're creation and also when they write things down, That kind of separates themselves from those things. Um, I would say that for the one it's really important. That you don't focus on just what's going wrong. I always encourage the ones to begin your practice of journaling by start by saying what's going right in your life. Because you begin a framework of saying not everything veers to the lowest common denominator. I can start with something that's working. somewhere. something in your life is working. And write that down. Begin that way because it causes gratitude and joy to flow out of your heart. Rather than just cynicism, um, and that can be a real, um, a real sort of frustration for the one. So, um, I would almost say that that is the upstream of the one is journaling. And the downstream is to get into nature and be conversant with that and find God in the trees. Um, it's amazing when we go and we allow free associations, you know, the, the neurology, the science right now that's pointing to free association connections. You know, we're trapped in our screens and we don't get those when we're in nature, when we're watching a sunset, when we're at a beach, I just never heard anyone see a sunset and say, another one of those again, huh? But there's just something about it that every time it just captures our, our wonder of saying that happened again. Wow. And it somehow puts all of my little imperfections into context. And so, um, nature and journaling, I would say would be really helpful as a downstream and an upstream for the one.

Brian 41:38

as our resident one, that is extremely helpful. I found both of those things to be extremely helpful. And the journaling is feels like an upstream. And yet when I do it, I know how. Absolutely it helpful it is to just get that, all the stuff that's tangled up in there, out on paper and just kind of release it. And I love the suggestion to just start with something that's going good.

AJ 41:58

yeah, there can be a kind of claustrophobia of imperfections that create a kind of anger that can come out. Um, and that, that can be a real challenge for the twos. You know, your, your vices is a secret pride. As you probably know, your virtues, humility. your fixation is flattery. You know, you long for that. Uh, especially when you've done something or showed up in someone's life and performed. Um, but for the two, I, you know, I always say to the two, you have to learn to work from love, not for love, which I think might be the most important thing I've ever said in my life to anybody, let alone twos into myself, to work from love that you are loved by God frees me to then serve without needing anything in return. So work from love, not for someone else's love. Um, Your downstream discipline is obviously hospitality, like finding ways to serve other people that comes naturally for you. Um, you know, Dallas Willard said that, um, grace isn't opposed to earning or grace isn't opposed to effort. It's opposed to earning, um, there is a place where I think twos can get where effort. You know, it can be really healthy that you walk into a room and you notice what's, what's off, what's wrong, what needs fixing, what needs help, who needs help. but it needs to happen from a place of rooted identity. So hospitality is, a, it's a natural for you. It's almost effortless in some ways. Just make sure you're doing it for the right motive. Um, the upstream practice for you is Centering Prayer, and and the reason for that is, You know, centering Prayer prior prioritizes being over doing. And oftentimes, similar to a three, a two can do, do, do, in order to compensate for who they don't feel like they are. And it's this sense that like, when you pray and you're just with God, you don't need to earn anything. You don't need to serve in any way. You don't need to Martha. Like in that moment, you need to marry. And, and it's at the feet of Jesus that you'll discover who you are and will free you to become a Martha that's healthy in the world. Um, and so learning the craft of centering prayer, uh, Thomas Keating, I think is so good at this, and the open heart, open mind and other things that he wrote to really help us get off these, what he calls programs for happiness. Um, that we employ in order to, to become happy, but they just make us more miserable. And so centering prayer is a way of just being with God in the stillness and being content with that. And that it's okay, and that you can be loved and not have to do anything in order to know who you are, in order to be someone. So, anything that prioritizes being over doing, I always say, you know, in the morning, spend time being with God before doing anything, And it might be helpful for your disposition. Any thoughts on that before we go to the three?

Adam 44:40

No. Just super helpful.

AJ 44:42

I'll leave some space in case you guys want to throw some stuff in here. Another thing that I won't talk about is spiritual count, the Christian calendar, that there are times that we need to show up intentionally than others based on our type. And that's in the Enneagram for spiritual formation because It's it's just there's some people that never need to miss Easter because there's some people that never need to miss lent um, because of their personality. sevens i'm talking to you. Um type 3, I digress. Spiritual disciplines. Uh, you know, You're, you're the achiever performer, you know, your vice is deceit, your virtue is truthfulness or being authentic. And so, um, vanity is your sort of stuckness. So, what are some practices that can help us with that? Well, the downstream, there's a Greek word called, uh, cataphatic. And it, it's this idea that through your senses, through your knowledge, through all the things like, um, you can, you can grow you can continue to learn and to read and digest information and to, Uh be able to teach that and to impart wisdom. And so I'm really big on threes Um not being so hard on themselves for like ways they want to perform and grow. There can be healthy forms of that, I guess um, and so it's it's really committing to that 365 day plan or it's committing to that daily office reading or that. You know, whatever it is that you do, that class that you want to teach, that's a really beautiful thing in the way the Spirit shows up in that. Um, your upstream practice that's going to come, um, difficult for you is confession. And it's, it, you know, we've gotten away from that in the Protestant church, because, you know, it was such a reaction to Catholicism. I get that. But finding someone that... you trust that you can actually like be honest about about your brokenness, who can say, you can hear it. I know the Lord forgives us. We go to Jesus for that, But to hear someone say, Brother, in the name of Jesus, you are forgiven. There's something about hearing that that feels so true and real. And so, is there someone in your life and threes would. Honestly, say it's hard that we don't spend a lot of resources and energy trying to find people who would really know us for who we are. in fact, we try to conceal that often. Is there someone in your life you can, you can confess your addictions to? Is there someone in life that aren't, isn't? It has permission to not be impressed with you but you can just be honest that, you know what, like, I'm, I'm just, I'm just, I just need you to hear this and I just need someone to walk with me, but, but threes hide from that kind of stuff. So that's going to be effortful and that's why it's an upstream practice. Um, so confession is that, and I would, I would suggest that threes pay attention to that.

Adam 47:12

Is there someone in your life who has the permission to not be impressed by you? That's a great question. Thanks for that. That's

AJ 47:19

Yeah. I mean, Oh my word. I'm a three So I I struggle with wanting to impress and wanting people to like me And Oh my word. it is like my constant pastoral conversations with Elena is I'm just, I just need to, I just need to give myself permission to not deceive them to try to be God as if they Don't know Right as if they're not like, well, yeah, we're not that impressed with you. Anyway, aj but that that need to perform into one up it's it's, it's real type for, um, you know, with the fours envy is your vice Um balance emotional balances, your virtue um, Melancholy can be where you get stuck. Um, I always tell fours uh, the downstream practice, um, is always going to be solitude and journaling for you. You love time alone. You love to process and feel you love to journal and. It sort of like get your thoughts out and articulate them. I would say this for the four in that downstream practice of writing and just getting things out Start by interceding for other people think about the fact that other people exist You know It's easy for fours to talk about what they're thinking and feeling and how life's going for them But start by thinking about the plight of other people and pray for them use your journal to start by praying for every member of your family, right? Or every, you know, friend in your group or your small group, whatever, whatever that is. And I think that's helpful because it gives fours an extension into the world that the world exists. The world doesn't revolve around you and how you're feeling like you are a part of this greater symphony. And so that helps you to sort of rebalance that, um, the upstream practice for fours. Um, That you will try to avoid is feasting. I think it's really important for fours to show up, um, with the champagne at graduations. Uh, college, not high school. Um, to, to show up at the party celebrating someone else's achievement or their life. Showing up to the birthday, make it a discipline to be the first person to arrive at someone else's event. Because that's just a great expression of saying I'm willing to move outside of myself and attach myself to someone else's narrative in a way that celebrates them and makes them the center and not me. So, feasting is a really great way to do that. And it really just gives fours more balance, less melancholy, to realize that um, we rejoice with those who rejoice. We don't just mourn with those who mourn, but we also rejoice with those who rejoice. And so it's a good thing to do that.

Adam 49:46

It's just a

AJ 49:47

For the fives, um, I would, uh, I would encourage you, You know, the, the vice is greed and the virtue is, um, non attachment. It's, uh, it's this idea that we get so We, we hoard knowledge and information and, being in that seat and wanting to keep for ourselves. your fixation can be around like being stingy around your time and your energy. I love talking about the five, my wife's a five, So we talk a lot about this, that her life is like a cell phone battery. And so she, she sort of evaluates every conversation that's about to happen of how much battery is this person going to take in my bandwidth I might void Adam because he might take me down a long conversation that I'm not ready to have today because I need energy for this over here with Brian. Right. And so, um, for the five. Um, the downstream practice for you is obviously going to be things like inductive Bible study, things where you're inquiring more knowledge, more sort of, uh, a sense of, of, of helpfulness when it comes to reading and usefulness in that way. Um, I think that the, the upstream, Um practice for the five is the integration. It's the shema, you know The Shema is the most central passage in all scripture Loving jesus with all of your heart and all of your soul all of your strength and then jesus would have later mind What we mean is that the spiritual life is about integrating the... Our, our whole, our whole selves, it's about realizing that your brain is distributed through your body, your brain isn't just up here on your head, and that we actually, the way to actually like live truthfully is to live our faith through our feet, that we actually walk our faith, right? So we distribute that, that understanding through our emotions and all the way to our feet. We walk the faith out. Well, what happens for the five is you can get so fixated on cognition that you forget about emotional health. And you also forget to actually, like, serve the poor. You forget to manifest that Jesus became flesh. And so I'm always trying to encourage fives to live in their, in their flesh, like the good flesh, not like, you know, simple flesh, to live out through their, their body what it means to follow Jesus. And so ways that you can aim to engage your hands and your feet in your life are really good. rather than just sitting and reading and learning a bunch of stuff, um, is a really helpful way to be. And I know that's sort of, y'all, these are all generalizations. They shrink people down. I don't mean it like that. That's all fives do is read books because we all know that's not true. But that's a tendency. It's a pattern. So pay attention to that. The pattern of the five is to disintegrate and to sort of live in one realm of your body and to not diffuse that into the whole.

Brian 52:23

Yeah. Hmm.

AJ 52:23

For the six, your vice is fear and your virtue is courage. Your fixation, where you get stuck, is in the realm of cowardice. Um, and I found in all my research that singing and journaling were really big for the six, especially singing. And I think that one of the reasons for that is because, um, I think sixes feel safe in the voices of others. So that's the only thing I can, like, there's just something about hearing others. Oh, yeah. I'm not crazy For believing this story I can hear others singing it Okay, like I feel part of something bigger. I feel safe in that but um, that's just extra credit the downstream I found for sixes is lexia Davina, I think sixes need in that, that, that sort of read, reflect, write and rest You know, the four pivots of, of what it means to start with a text and end in stillness to ask a six to start in stillness is like, wait, I don't know if that's safe. I don't know if demons are going to invade that space. Like, what does that mean? Start with the text, allow the words of Jesus, read a passage of the gospel, and then write about it, and then reflect on it, and then rest in that, knowing God heard your cry, and you can be in the stillness with God. So I think that's a really great. point. The program for sixes is to do Lectio Divina every morning of meditating on the text and allow that to take you finally into the mode of just sitting in God's presence, being still. Um, the upstream practice for this type, I think is scripture memory. Um, the reason I say that is because fear is such a big part of how sixes can talk themselves out of being obedient to God's voice. And so knowing passages that can remind you, wait, wait, wait, no. God told me this, and I know I'm now feeling and hearing this, but I can't allow this moment to override what I, I know God, God asked me to do. and scripture memory is that place where, you know, I was, Elena, or Eloise, my daughter and I will talk about that Joshua 1, 8 passage of like, be strong and courageous, right. It's those moments of like, you? It's easy to do that on the couch, and then you go and live it out and you're like, Oh my goodness, this is really hard. And it's that idea of allowing our neural pathways to be flooded with the words of the scripture rather than, um, just being catapulted, um, or canalized by the moment. Um, I think it's important for Sixers to reclaim that, to find some passages that kind of root you in who you are, that you can live out of when you, when fear comes up. Um. where are we? The seven? Let me find the seven here, what do I want to say about the seven today? Um, sevens, you know, as you know, um, their vice is gluttony and their virtue is sobriety. Um, it's, it's helpful for sevens. Where they get stuck is on, um, anticipation. Um, they get, sevens, sevens need, I think, more than anybody, um, a time of Solitude and silence for their upstream. I just inverted that, I'll get back to the downstream in a second. I mean, I would, I would prescribe in our cultural moment contemplative practice for everybody. You know, people say to me like, who's contemplative practices for on the Enneagram? One through nine, right? One through ten. Right. Whatever, number you are, we need time of stillness, silence, and solitude. Well, the seven definitely needs that because there's so much future orientation. It's hard for the seven to just live in space and time and to just allow the presence to be, and to not Try to think about the next thing. And so, um, for sevens to do that is is an upstream I always tell sevens for their downstream. Um, I mean, feasting is such a big part. I, I always. I always tell them, though, that as they feast with others or just enjoy the gift of a good bottle of wine or whatever that might be Don't ever use that to avoid your inner life You know, sometimes sevens use feasting and parties or whatever to avoid sort of processing what's hurtful or what's painful. When you, when it's being used to avoid it, you've slipped off from a spiritual practice and it's become kind of a compensation or a kind of an idol. And so just be aware of that of why you're doing what you're doing. And also, am I feasting with them on their behalf? Or is it just to sort of medicate something that i'm trying to sort of avoid or forget? Um, So that's really important downstream and upstream for the seven. I think I think that those are pretty obvious for the seven There's nothing sort of subversive or sort of weird about those. I think those are every time I talk to sevens about their practically. Yes, I love feasting and yes, I need silence and salt too. That would be good for me. Um, for the eight, um Your vice is aggression and your innocence, your virtue is innocence, uh, you feel stuck. Where you get stuck is the need for vengeance and the need for, um, yeah, for vengeance. Your downstream practice is um, obviously to contend for regular opportunities, uh, to contend for the common good. You're really good at caring about... Um, the needs and longings of others and so finding ways where you can routinize that where it's not just random, but that you are, um, committing to a life where you're going to show up on behalf of another, whether it's at the soup kitchen or whether it's on a board of an orphanage or whatever that is for you. Um, try to routinize that in your life where you know that that sort of passion that you have to contend for the least of these is baked into your life on a rhythmic Thank you. basis and not just random when it comes up. Um, the upstream for you is accountability. Um, they say, I think Suzanne taught this, that, you know, maybe three to four people in your life might know you. as an eight that eights have this exterior because it hides this inner, this inner core that's really vulnerable, that maybe was traumatized or abused at some point. And so you develop this shell to protect that. But similar to threes, but for different reasons, find someone that um, can hold you accountable that isn't impressed with your power, that, that doesn't feel like they could potentially lose their friendship if they, if they called you to account, but you're going to have to invite them to do that. Because you're a powerful person and they probably won't come to you because there'll be some fear there. So it's actually going to require you pursuing someone to say, Hey, I think you see well and I give you permission to, um, tell me how I show up there because I'm not aware of the way people experience me sometimes. So that's a really helpful thing for the eight and a really good upstream practice to submit to. Um, and last for the, for the nine, um, your vice is sloth. Your virtue is action. Daydreaming can be where you get stuck. The loss of priority is a big thing. So I would say for your downstream, um, Similar to ones, but for different reasons. Spend time in creation. What creation does is it rebalances priority. It helps your brain to also process Priority and what matters most. Um, it also gives you that sense of calm. You know, there can be a kind of like inner anger and resentment in a nine. and creation gives you a place to sort of put that, and to sort of reframe that. and to sort of breathe a little bit to where it doesn't get repressed in you. So creation is a good downstream practice for the nine. The upstream, I would say, is rhythm. You need fixed hour prayer. I would say, you know, the nines can get lost in the priorities and the chaos of the day. So whether it's like a eight, twelve, five or bedtime rhythm, Um, there's this really cool book I found years ago, um, by phyllis tickle, um, she wrote a book called the, uh, the... Um, Oh, what's it called? I might not remember it. It's, uh, it's such a basic title, but it's the, um, it's a book of just prayers. It's just daily prayers, but it's the shorter version. So, you just have prayers that you read, um, monday to sunday and then it just starts over. And it's

Brian 1:00:02

Is it the divine hours? Yeah.

AJ 1:00:03

Nine Hours, but it's the, a Pocket Edition. It's Divine Hours Pocket, you know, the, dot the first one she was this thick. This one's like super thin. And I used to keep it by my bedside And pray the evening prayers before going to bed Elaine and I would pray them together before going to bed. And I would say for the nine, it's really good for you to have that sort of rhythm where the first place you reach for in the morning isn't to your phone, but to some sort of rhythm of, of prayer and then maybe stopping for 30 seconds At lunch and just sort of collecting yourself and reminding yourself who god says you are Before going off to lunch or into the next meeting and then maybe before bed or before dinner, finding that sort of sense that sort of, you know, the, the ancient. Um, the ancients, especially within the, um, in the Renaissance, they started designing churches with bells and it was because they wanted to call the church to recollect who they are, to remember who they are. So they would call you back to prayer at noon, or at three or at six, You know, spending the month in Italy last month, like to hear these bells again every day. All the time, was like, oh wow, these are calls to the monks to show up in the presence of God. Well, it's the same for the nine, to make sure you're showing up and you're not getting lost in the chaos of your schedule, so. What I tell people is this, listen, you're, these need to be shifted throughout the course of our life, these practices. They need to stay fresh. That if you find something that's helpful for another type, take it. Steal it. Make it your own. Because we all need these somewhere in our life. And this is just like, there is a panoply of spiritual practices out there through Foster's work, through Calhoun's work. There's so many people that have done good work on spiritual practices. And the Protestant church is only now waking up to, Wow, there's like a symphony of saints that have handed us a treasure trove of following Jesus. And we've sort of avoided it. And said, like we'll do these three things for everybody and hopefully we'll change the world But but it's not working. And so what would it look like for you to get creative about? Your life. Like the biggest thing I want to tell people is this is the one life you get and no one is going to be grateful that they spent their years on the phone. No one will be grateful for that So take responsibility and agency for your day and design it in a way that allows you To open up to the presence of God and become aware of His availability as much as you can. And that's the gift of transformation. You know, that's where things change and shift in our life.

Adam 1:02:34

Yeah, man, what a timely word. We were talking before we hit record about your little book, Quiet, and I was recounting, I think I have, I think I have it memorized, but that opening line of the most generous gift in all the universe is the radical availability of God's presence. Just the fact that he wants to be with us. that, that, that we're designed to be with him. I mean, the fullness of joy is... in his presence. His, his love is better than life itself. Like that's what we're made for. And yet, um, due to many things, woundedness, sinful flesh, and then, um, uh, the ways we're being formed and shaped by culture with digital addiction and busyness and distraction and all that stuff, we're just not attuned to it. We're not aware of his presence. And so these practices are, uh, life giving, life saving. And, and so just, this has been incredibly helpful and practical. I tried to disguise the fact that I was taking notes, uh, as you were, uh, teaching, even though I've read, I've read, I've read the books and so I have, I have these notes in book form and yet I was capturing them because they were rolling off. out of your heart in a fresh way. So thank you for that. I think here's where I want to close. I want to come back to something that you said earlier, AJ, about working our number. And I love the Adele Calhoun quote that you use to close out your book on spiritual formation, where she says, it feels irrelevant to know your number if you're not going to work it. And we totally agree here at your Enneagram coach. I mean, so much of our work centers around training and equipping coaches to help. Others do the work like to help, not, not, not just people discover their type, but work it and, and, and experience this kind of transformation that is available, available to us in the gospel.

How AJ has used the Enneagram

Adam 1:04:38

So in your, your time working with the Enneagram, how do you think it's helped you or impacted you personally to not just know your number, but, but to work your number?

AJ 1:04:50

Uh, I mean, as a, as a three, I think understanding how, um, Ian Krohn and I had a conversation about this one time about how we actually can sacralize our brokenness. In other words, God, do you see how much I'm performing for you?

Adam 1:05:12

Yeah.

AJ 1:05:12

You know, we can take that which is actually broken and misguided and make that into a virtue. God, do you see how good I am at this thing and how much they love me? Thank you for blessing me and anointing me. Like, we can sacralize that which actually needs to sometimes be critiqued. So, for me I am aware of my mischief and my creativity to um to self congratulate and to sacralize that, which is actually, you know, Saul was a classic example of this. Not Saul Paul, but Saul from the Davidic time. where the greatest strength he had turned into be his greatest weakness. And he ended up losing anointing because he fell in love with himself. And so I, I have gotten to a point where, um, a lot of my practices are related around me prioritizing being overdoing. Um, and so contemplative prayer. Walking more, um, tweeting less. um, there's just, I've tried to draw boundaries over my life more. I, I don't check email until afternoon. Um, I try not to return texts until afternoon. John Mark, my friend John Mark Kummer is really good at this. Like where he has just really guarded boundaries of when and where he'll do things. And I realized like so much of my life was sort of a blur where I was allowing so many different things at once.

Adam 1:06:40

Yeah.

AJ 1:06:41

I realized I need really tight categories in order to, um, to not lose my way. So like the morning has a function. You have more cortisol in your brain when you wake up than at any other time. And you got about three hours of creativity when you get up. Why would you give that to social media? Why would you give that to email? Like, do you give the best part of your day to the Lord?

Adam 1:07:09

Hmm.

AJ 1:07:10

Do you give the best moments of your brain every day to God's creativity, to God's imagination for your life? And so these are things that I've, I've noticed That I want to architect my life in such a way that, um, allows my life to be an offering and allows me to live it with eyes wide awake and not sort of drifting. So I have a whole, like, thing that doesn't feel oppressive. It feels like an invitation every morning. I have, I have a rule of life and it's, it's super helpful for me before I do anything. I, I attend to God's presence in specific ways that are routinized and they help me, um, they helped me not be a jerk, they helped me be a better dad, and they helped me keep the main thing the main thing, which is, which is God's presence, and Jesus is the head of the church. So yeah, that, that's, that's the biggest thing I would say that it's done in me, and I would think my wife would probably say thanks be to God.

Adam 1:08:08

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Thanks,

AJ 1:08:11

Yeah.

Brian 1:08:13

AJ, thank you so much for your time, uh, for your insight, for sharing, doing all nine of those with us and for giving us a better understanding of how the Enneagram offers us really unique and very specific spiritual practices for our types. Um, people can find you on Instagram at a J underscore Cheryl. That's two R's two L's on Twitter at a J Cheryl with no underscore or online at a J Cheryl. org. Is there anything else we haven't talked about or mentioned that you'd like to share?

AJ 1:08:43

I think, I think your listeners listened out. So I'll just, I'll just pause it there.

Adam 1:08:49

AJ.

Brian 1:08:49

Thank you for being so gracious, A. J. Remember, if you're interested in learning more about the Enneagram, visit our website at your Enneagram coach. dot com. And if you're ready to take it a step further with a personalized Enneagram coach. Check out our directory of incredible certified coaches@myenneagramcoach.com. And for those of you who wanna bless others by becoming a certified Enneagram coach, check out our leading certification program@yourenneagramcoach.com. Our team will be there, including Adam and I to guide you each step of the way. Join us in blessing and others. with accelerated transformation. And Adam, you want to close us out?

Adam 1:09:24

Absolutely. Next time, Brian and I will be talking about the Enneagram and healthy leadership. It's going to be a practical and insightful episode, so make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss it. And remember, the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It is the gospel that transforms us. Thanks for tuning in. Bye. Bye. We'll see you in the next episode