Adam 1:11

Hey, everyone. I'm Adam Breckenridge, director of coaching at Your Enneagram Coach, and I am joined by my good friend, Brian Lee, who is the coaching and operations manager here at YEC. Brian and I have the joy of working together to serve our community of certified Enneagram coaches in the day to day. And this summer, we've had the joy of standing in for our friends, Beth and Jeff McCord to host Your Enneagram Coach, the podcast.

Brian 1:36

Thank you, Adam. It's our mission to help you see yourselves with astonishing clarity so you can break free from self condemnation. Thank Fear and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom in Christ. And if you love this content, then turn on your automatic downloads or like and subscribe to the YouTube channel, or share this with someone who would enjoy or benefit from this content.

Adam 2:00

Well, on this episode of the podcast, we are talking some more about the Enneagram and healthy leadership. Our guest and conversation partner is Steve Kuss. Steve is an author, speaker, and the founder of CapableLife. me an online community, helping you to function as a calm, aware, present. Human. Steve has served in a variety of pastoral roles for 26 years. The majority of those years as a lead pastor. He is also proud to be a strategic partner with Compassion International, the Leadership Network and Missio Alliance. He and his wife Lisa have two college age sons and a teenage daughter. Steve, welcome to the podcast and thanks for being here.

Steve 2:41

Uh, thanks for having me guys. And Brian, I was just listening to you marveling at how cheerfully you talk about shame and condemnation. It was very, very cheerfully spoken. That was awesome.

Brian 2:52

Thank you.

Adam 2:54

Oh, I love it. Hey, Steve, before we jump in, why don't you take some time just to tell us a little more about your current work?

Steve 3:02

Right. So my current work is primarily with church staffs and nonprofits. I do some work in the business marketplace. And, um, the simple idea is I'm trying to help leaders believe and practice that the most important thing for them to give to their organization is that they are well. Uh, the only gift you have to offer to others is a well self is how I would say it in short and the most dangerous leader is the one that's on fire for Jesus and unwell. We've seen plenty of examples of that since 2018. We don't need to turn this into a TMZ or TMZ. I guess you guys would say, but, um, but it's shocking when, uh, when a leader is unwell. And still proclaiming Christ. Awful, awful things happen. And so, I'm not on a one man mission. I think a lot of us, you guys are in the same work. If I can help a leader believe that working on your own well being actually infects your whole group of people with wellness. Um, that's how you lead. So, so I use a fairly obscure theory called systems theory. A lot of people have never heard of it. It's quite shocking to me cause I've been learning it and practicing it for 25 years or so. Um, but I use a particular theory to help people locate anxiety and you first always locate it in yourself and then you learn how to locate it in your people and in the dynamics in your organization. And it's a lot of fun because I get to introduce people to a theory they've not heard of. And as soon as they hear about it, like 10 minutes in, they're suddenly hooked. Because it's describing their life. And that's not because I'm an amazing describer, it's that System Series is really a helpful view of how the world works. It's kind of like the Matrix. So I kind of show it to my workshops, I give people a blue pill, and then suddenly they're seeing things that they've always felt. So that's what I do. It's a great privilege. And you know, I'm a pastor. I'm not currently, I'm a part of a local church, but I'm not currently on staff with a local church. I'm actually a member of the church that I led for 17 years. Um, which is a great joy, but now my pastoral care is mostly with leaders and it's an absolute privilege. I can't, honestly, I can't believe I get to do it.

Brian 5:14

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. For, for people who may not be familiar with, and it may be a lot, is there a 30 second description of what systems theory is?

Steve 5:27

yeah, it's a great question. It's a really important question, Brian, because really like 95% of the people I encounter have never heard of it. In 20 seconds, systems theory teaches you to locate the anxiety, locate it, where's it coming from, and then how do I diffuse it? That would be the simplest. Anxiety in this case, not being worry and fear, that's what we think about when we think, when we say anxiety, we're like, oh,

Brian 5:52

Hmm.

Steve 5:52

worry and fear. In systems theory, anxiety is reactivity.

Adam 5:57

Mm,

Steve 5:57

And that's where things get really interesting. So if you think of your staff meetings and all you're looking for now as a leader is who's getting reactive and what you're looking for is who's getting bigger than human, dominating, they're interrupting. They're no longer listening to learn, they're now listening to defend, or listening to fix. So, mansplaining is a sign of anxiety. Um, right now the Barbie movie is causing all kinds of trouble

Brian 6:22

Oh boy. Is it?

Steve 6:23

particularly, particularly some Christian men, I've noticed. That's because those men, uh, are getting convicted about how much they listen to fix. So, so what you're looking for in reactivity is people getting bigger, and then of course, also people getting smaller. Every staff.

Adam 6:38

Mm.

Steve 6:39

three or four people that are not speaking up anymore. They tried and they don't feel safe. And so what they do is have their own meeting after the meeting.

Adam 6:47

Yeah.

Steve 6:48

then you as a leader get grumpy because you're saying, well, you shouldn't be gossiping and you don't realize that you've caused that whole situation.

Brian 6:54

Mm hmm.

Steve 6:54

So, so I go in and cause all kinds of trouble, helping people notice reactivity always, always, always beginning with yourself. And that's where things get. Fascinating, because reactivity based anxiety is always based on false belief.

Brian 7:11

Mm

Steve 7:12

And that's why I've given my life to studying it as a pastor, because if I can help people uncover their false assumptions, like one of mine would be, everyone who's ever met me has to at least like me, and ideally be blown away by me. That would be the goal. I would love to be adored. Uh, that's a false belief. And if I live out of that belief, which I've done a lot, terrible things happen to me and to my people. So that would be kind of the 22nd and then like the one minute version.

Brian 7:40

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's so helpful and clarifying. And I think a lot of other people may be having their minds blown right now. And I really appreciate the way that you provided a distinction for anxiety from fear and these other things that it's more the reactivity than the activity that's happening in our brains or in our hearts. Um, and so much of it has to do with that level of self awareness that we have. Thank you. And I think if I'm correct, all three of us have experienced that reactivity at the hands of unaware leaders. The only other best phrase I've come up with is just self ignorant. That some of them are just truly ignorant and just unaware, and some of them choose to not face themselves, right? There's a big difference between those two as well.

Steve 8:28

That's the tougher one.

Brian 8:29

It really is. But if we were able to do that, and what I love about working with the Enneagram is that it moves us away from that reflexive reactivity to more thoughtful responses, and that when we can move in those directions, there is just so much good transformation that happens within ourselves, within our teams, within the relationships that we have. Um, and I think even you're sharing this, this need to be. Someone who blows people away or at least for people to like you and you told us before we started recording that you think you identify as a three, not sure about the four, the two wing, but for our listeners, would you share a little bit more about your own journey with the Enneagram, how you discovered that type, how it's impacted you as leader, husband, pastor, dad, all those things. Um,

Steve 9:42

So basically I taught system theory to my staff for years. And then along the way, uh, Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile rode the road back to you, where a lot of people first discovered Enneagram. And then beyond that, we discovered how many people had been teaching it for years. You know, Richard Rohr, Chuck DeGroat. He's, uh, Suzanne, of course. Now, here's what's interesting. When I went through clinical pastoral education as a chaplain, I was 24 years old. The whole experience was incredibly overwhelming. That's where I was introduced to systems theory, and they tried to introduce me to enneagram, and I couldn't handle it. I remember them showing the nine numbers and me just being like, there's too much, just let me, let me off the hook because I've been doing so much internal work with systems and everything else. So, actually 1996 is when I first was exposed to it and I just put it in a lockbox.

Adam 10:31

Mm,

Brian 10:31

Mm

Steve 10:32

I don't remember when it was, it would have been within a year or two of the book coming out, Jimmy came to me, he was working for me at the time, he had been in my courses and he's like, hey, here's this thing that's really helpful. So he started to teach us, uh, yeah, I identified it as a three. I think the most tangible help it has been for me is it stops me from trying to make everyone like me, which I think was my default leadership posture. Uh, it gave me a lot more grace and patience with people. It also improved my preaching. It gave me, Sean Palmer has an amazing book called Communicating by the Numbers. And he actually helps you figure out how to construct a message so that more types of personalities. We'll hear it. So I think in those two areas, and then in some, just even some family relationships, some extended family. Oh yeah, I've got a difficult extended family member and just understanding, okay, here's how he's wired. Here's what he wants. Really helpful.

Brian 11:30

Thank

Adam 11:30

Thanks so much for sharing that, Steve. Um, you know, we thought we were talking before we hit record as well about how you you have written one of my favorite books. Truly one of the most meaningful books I've read titled Managing Leadership Anxiety. Yours and theirs. Um, recommend this book to leaders and staff teams all the time. I read it in 2019 when it came out, I was an executive pastor overseeing staff leaders, volunteers also doing quite a bit of preaching and teaching. And believe it or not, Had quite a bit of anxiety in myself, uh, on the team and your book gave us language to name some of those dynamics that some of those things that were going on within myself and within our team. And it gave us some tools that I still use to this day that have helped me tremendously. So, um, thank you for that. And I'd love for you just to share maybe a little bit about how this book came about for you. Um, it seems personal, seems like it came outta your own story, and so I, I was wondering if you'd be willing to bring our, our listeners into that story of how and why you wrote this resource.

Steve 12:31

Yeah. Extremely personal for me. Uh, the journey began when I was a trauma chaplain, I was very young, I was very green. And I, I feel like I had a great Bible college education, um, but I, but it did not equip me of course, for death and trauma. Um, and I don't expect that it should have, but what happened there is all of the gifts and talents that I thought were helpful in the kingdom became obnoxious and destructive in the face of death and trauma, giving people a Bible verse, some, some Christian form of look on the bright side, you know, I'd, I'd summarize it that way. And I was completely ill equipped to enter into people's pain rather than shrinking it down. What I used to do is someone would bring their pain to me. I was not aware that it would make me anxious. And then I would say something to them, not for them, but calm me down. I didn't know any of that until I became a chaplain. So chaplaincy was transformative for me. The head chaplain was a system Siri guy. That's where I learned it. I was hooked. Then in seminary, I did an MDiv and, uh, happened to have this incredible. Brand new professor who taught a whole set of systems theory I'd never been exposed to and I, I, then I was hooked for life. Then I was a crisis interventionist at a large church in Las Vegas, mostly people off the streets, people in the worst moments of their life. And I'm a chronic people pleaser. If you're hurting, I kind of anxiously need to rush in. And so that was incredible time for me to really practice connected presence instead of anxiously rushing in. Particularly for that kind of chronically poor person who's maybe wrapped in systemic poverty, where that kind of person uses manipulation as a resource. Like I used to, I used to see manipulation as a moral thing, like, Oh, they're bad people, they're manipulating me. But it helped me when I did that work in Vegas to say, no, actually, they're just using every resource they can to get what they need.

Adam 14:27

Wow.

Steve 14:27

But they knew how to manipulate me and my anxiety to do for them things that I really shouldn't be doing. Giving out personal information and giving out all kinds of stuff. So, I was using System Siri informally and then I became a lead pastor. And suddenly all these tools weren't working. It's like, it's like going from associate to lead. Everything got ten times more intense. Um, and it was a few reasons. I was at a mega church before with a, we had a graphics department, we had a catering department, like we had all these resources. And I went from that to a lead pastor of a church of 150 that was portable and suddenly I'm the graphics department and I'm the photocopy tech. And so I think in fairness to me, it was also that the role that the breadth of skills I needed was way more than I had. And it also felt like in the megachurch, if I had a leadership idea, it kind of felt like. I would put my idea like a leaf in the stream and the stream would carry it and suddenly I've got 500 volunteers.

Adam 15:27

hmm.

Steve 15:28

at this little scrappy portable church, it felt like I was putting the whole church on my back. And carrying it, neither of those is true, but that's what it felt like. So five years into leading Discovery, I just remember thinking, I'm not going to make it. I'm going to burn out in this job that I love.

Brian 15:47

Silence.

Steve 15:48

Um, I'm, I'm taking every criticism personally, every single word against the church is a word against me. It just was... Pathological. So I dug deeper into my systems tools and thought I have to form a way of life for myself. I have to actually intentionally build tools to practice this thing that was kind of informal. So I did that for a few years. It really helped. And then I went to four of my key staff and I said, Hey, I've been doing this thing for a while and just recently kind of Making it into a curriculum for myself, and I can see that you're getting into the same patterns that I was in, and if you're willing to, I don't know if I can teach this, but I learned it first in chaplaincy, and here's what I said to them, it was quite comical, I said, the reason it worked for me is because the context was death, every day, death almost every day,

Adam 16:41

Wow.

Steve 16:42

will church leadership be traumatic enough for it to work for you too, that was the big question, is church leadership As traumatic as death, turns out. Yep.

Adam 16:51

Yep.

Steve 16:52

That's what we all discovered. Oh, yeah. Church leadership is plenty traumatic. And so we all we all went through the class together. I was the teacher, they were the students, but we all kind of learn together. And now two of those people are my trainers. They've been with me in this over 10 years now, and they coach and train people. And that's kind of and so through that, I feel like I'm getting a bit long winded, Through that, a dear friend of mine, Jeff and Sherry Surratt, uh, the Surratt name is quite profound in the kingdom. Greg Surratt's a pastor in South Carolina. I think almost every Surratt you've ever heard of is in ministry. Jeff and Sherry are dear friends of mine. They're incredible people and they said, look, you need to write this into a book. And I said, well, I don't think anyone's going to publish me. No one's ever heard of me. And secondly. It's not a book. It's an experience. It's an encounter. We do a nine month class at our church. It's a, it's a, it's a cohort. And Jeff was really wise. He said, Look, if you write it down, then it's anything you want it to be. A book opens the doors for you to make cohorts and do all of that. That made sense to me. And I'd always wanted to write a book. That was a dream of mine. So Sherry connected me to Harper Collins, Thomas Nelson, and, and I still don't understand why, but they published it. Um, I think my Twitter followers at the time was like 40. Um, and, uh, that's, and that's what happened. And then really COVID. exploded the popularity of the book and uh, Kerry Newhoff went out of his way to help me. He, um, he needed guests on his show for anxiety, but then he just really very personally made a big impact on my life. And, and boy, Kerry Newhoff, people listen to his show and they, they reach out. And so between COVID and Kerry, I got really busy.

Brian 18:40

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I, we were talking earlier as well. That's, that's how I found you as well was during COVID when I heard that interview with him, um, and came across your work, it's. I like what you said about going from a megachurch to a small church and feeling the differences between the two, saying that neither really was true, but it's what it felt like. And I think so often perception is reality for a lot of people. Um. And it's the level of work that I hear you doing to become aware of what your body and what your system is feeling so that you learn how to respond differently instead of just react. Um, and so much of the work that we do with the Enneagram is about that kind of awareness. Right. And in the introduction to your book, you write leaders face a steady onslaught of internal and external pressures. We're not trained to handle. We focus on skill development and hone our gifts, but too often neglect the most important leadership tool, awareness of what's happening under the service. So when leaders like myself, like Adam, like you hear a phrase like the most important leadership tool, our ears perk up, right?

Steve 19:54

Yeah.

Brian 19:54

And you say that most leaders are neglecting it. Cool. So could you say a little bit more about why you believe self awareness to be the most important leadership tool and maybe why you think so many leaders neglected?

Steve 20:06

Yeah. You know, I mean, I almost could have called the book Leadership Lessons from a Trauma Chaplain. That would be a similar idea. If you think about trauma chaplaincy, the job is to emotionally and spiritually connect to strangers in the worst moments of their life. And you have one to two minutes to do it.

Brian 20:26

Hmm.

Steve 20:27

Okay, how do you do that? Well, I thought that, I mean, I'm naturally entrepreneurial, so I like vision. I like accomplishing mission. And I'm, I'm profoundly others focused. I used to think that was all in fulfillment of the gospel. Oh man, look at Steve, look how he loves others. I have come to learn that it's just a great way to deny what's going on in myself. It's a great coping mechanism. So. If we go back to chaplaincy, the shock of my life was to discover that if in order to truly help these people, I had to first be aware of myself, because if I walked in and focused on them and was not aware of me, I would infect the room. Uh, for example, it was not uncommon for somebody to have a sudden death in their family. and them to physically grab me. It's quite, quite scary at first, but they might have their hands on my shoulders and not really be shaking me, but they're shaking and they're screaming, maybe a foot from my face. How could God allow this to happen? Chaplain?

Brian 21:30

Silence.

Adam 21:31

hmm.

Steve 21:31

Okay. I have a need to know the answer. That's one of my false needs in my life.

Adam 21:37

Hmm.

Steve 21:37

You put me in a staff meeting and Jimmy asks Rene a question and I know the answer. I need to, I know, I'm like, I'm like a little boy. Well, when that person is yelling at me, how can God allow this to happen? We know in this podcast, we know he's not actually asking a question. It's certainly not one that he's wanting me to give content on. But my brain tricks me in that moment. It deceives me and it says, you need to give a cognitive theological answer for the problem of pain, a theodicy. And I'm, I'm ashamed to tell you guys in the early weeks, I did, like. This person's screaming and I'm saying, well, let me help you understand the human freedom. What? So, I had to learn, it took about six weeks, and I went in kicking and screaming. I had to learn, oh man, if I'm going to connect to this person in the worst moments of their life, I better know that I need to have the answer. I need to be helpful. I need to shrink your pain down to a size I can advise, so that I can die to all those false needs. Enter into your pain where God already is. I used to believe... That I was bringing God into these situations. I'm the chaplain. I bring God like he's in my pocket. What? And then when I realized, wait, wait, wait, God is already in the room. God is already working in these people. God is close to the brokenhearted. I can walk into that room, die to myself and all my false needs to be impressive, to say the right thing, to do the right thing. My need to relieve people of pain is off the charts. It's crazy. And to walk in and say, actually, that's a false need. That's not what God's calling me to do. That's what I need for myself. I'm going to die to that. Now I'm going to walk into that room and be attentive to God and to these people. Changed everything for me. And so just taking those lessons and discovering all those same needs at play in my preaching, my staff leadership, my elder work, all of it. The expectations of good, good congregants who mean well, but have no idea. Um, all of those situations these false needs. If I'm not aware of them and managing them, they infect the situation and I can no longer see what God's calling me to do. I can only act out of what I need to make myself feel better. Uh, maybe the simplest way to say it is if you've ever taken a toddler shopping at a supermarket and the toddler throws a tantrum in public. Most of your next moves with that toddler are for you, not for them.

Brian 24:11

that's right.

Steve 24:12

Yeah. And so that would be another simple way to notice it.

Brian 24:16

Wow. Okay.

Adam 24:17

Yeah, man. Uh, Steve, I resonate so much with that. Um, needing to have the answer to here. I am an Enneagram six living in the head triad and also have a particular vulnerability to anxiety. So I hear sixes have a particular vulnerability to anxiety. I think all humans human to be anxious is to be human. But, uh, that's that's neither here nor there. So I, I too have have dipped into, um, What I like to call spiritual pharmacology, whereas here are a couple of Bible verses, or here's a theodicy that, you know, really what I'm trying to do is shut the other person down because I have feelings about their feelings and I'm having anxiety and anxious reaction to what they're going through. And what I, what I hear you saying is the reason why self awareness is the most important leadership tool. Is that when I'm not aware that this is what's going on inside of me, I show up in anxious ways and bring more anxiety to the relational system. Um, you, you use the word infect, like I. I infect people with my own anxiety. So, you know, I think the goal I've heard, you know, heard you and Friedman and others talk about the goal then would be differentiation. So can you, can you kind of define that for us a little bit? Like what's, what's the, what's the opposite of showing up in an anxious way would be, I think, to be differentiated. But what does that look like

Steve 25:40

Good. What a great question. Freedman and his mentor, the founder Murray Bowen, who founded System Theory, they call it a non anxious presence. And I actually use that language in my book. I wish I could rewrite that now. Listen, I, I owe so much to Friedman and Bowen. Non anxious presence gives the impression that you're calm. So, I, I have changed it to connected presence. Um, it's pretty arrogant of me to do it. It's like the grasshopper telling the master, you know, how to... But connected presence, because what that looks like is I can be anxious but still connected to you, Adam. Um, I actually learned this from, from some, um, people of color, particularly, uh, African American women. Where I used to teach calm presence and they're like, baby, we don't want you to become we want you to be as outraged as we are. And in fact, when we're outraged, and you're calm, that just makes us angrier. I thought that's really helpful.

Adam 26:37

Yes.

Steve 26:38

But what you want from me is connection. I'm here, I'm with you, I'm seeing. So connected presence is the goal. And what that looks like, is the intentional work to manage your anxiety, so you're not dumping it on others. And at the same time, the intentional work To not be catching the anxiety that's flying at you, which is a decision everyone can make. Like, I don't have to be offended by what you're saying. I don't need you to treat me a certain way. You can treat me however you want to treat me, and I can take responsibility for myself. So it's managing anxiety that's coming out of me and coming at me. That's one thing.

Adam 27:16

Yeah.

Steve 27:16

it's working on connection to you, to me, and to God at the same time. And that's hard. So, I've had a number of situations, Adam, like if you and I were chatting and things were getting a little reactive between us and, and man, sometimes that means I might get real quiet, like reactive isn't always loud. Sometimes you might notice me suddenly, like not sharing what I really think. If I'm connected to myself, I can actually pay attention. And for me, it's often in the form of a prayer. Lord, search, you know, Psalm 139, search me, you know me, show me my anxious thoughts. And if I can realize, you know, what's going on right now is I'm actually not listening to Adam. I am building a defense in my brain. I'm no longer listening. I'm just building a case. Sometimes I'll name it to you. I'll say, Hey, Adam, I'm sorry to interrupt. But I can tell that I'm no longer connected. I'm actually wrapped up in myself. I'm really sorry. I, I can feel myself getting defensive. So I just wanted to name that so I can connect and I really want to hear what you're saying. Would you please say it again? Any healthy person will give you that mulligan. And then any narcissist and pathological person will wield it against you and now you kind of know who you're dealing with.

Brian 28:34

Okay. Hello.

Steve 28:34

Um, so like if I'm giving you my vulnerability and Adam, you're obviously not like this, but if you're then saying, Well, that's pretty rude of you. I can't believe you do that. I'm like, okay, well you're weaponizing my vulnerability. You're no longer to be trusted. Now I'm going to put you in a different category of people,

Brian 28:50

Yeah.

Steve 28:50

almost everybody I meet what's what you would typically say, Adam is, Oh man, I'm kind of glad you said that. Cause I was getting a little spun up too. Thanks so much. I would be happy to tell you again. And now we're connected. Um, so the final step of differentiation is. Making sure you are clear on what God has called you to do and be. And so I, for example, have a set of differentiation values for social media, because without them, I become the kind of person I don't want to become. I become judgmental and self righteous, and I really believe, as I read social media, that what God wants me to do is put people in their place. I mean, it's, it's... Mortifying to admit it, but that's, that's my core. What the world needs is one more opinion from me. Like, that's so arrogant. But differentiation, I've actually got a written set of social media values and behaviors. Here's how I will behave. And that has saved me. So many times, because who has God called me to be? What has God called me to do? And sometimes that can get really practical. Um, In our city, we, our city is the youngest county in Colorado. And when we became a county, all of the social services for people in poverty left. We are very under resourced as it relates to social services. And so a few of us pastors got together and decided we want to provide affordable housing in our city. And you would have thought that we'd just joined the communist party. I mean, the outcry from city council, a couple of us got called into the assistant city manager's office and told to never talk about affordable housing in public again. It was crazy. And I just kept saying, well, it's so fundamentally, it's about defining yourself. And so we had to keep saying to the council members and the people who are threatened, you know, you, you have your value when we, we actually tithed our land for affordable housing and some of our neighbors were also members of our church, they would walk to church and in a neighborhood meeting, here'd be an example of differentiation. I got up. And I said, and it was quite a hostile meeting. We had some neighbors that really didn't want low income housing in their neighborhood.

Brian 31:08

Silence. Hmm. Wow.

Steve 31:09

And I said, Hey, uh, thank you for coming today. We are presenting our vision and what we want to do and here's why. Here's how we want to help them. But just want you to know as neighbors, if you, if your conviction is to vote against it, I hope you will. I hope you'll get up in council and vote no. And then when we see you in the neighborhood, we'll shake hands. We're good with each other. Now, those of you in the room that are both neighbors and members of this church, I hope you vote your conviction. And if your conviction is no, I hope you get up and vote no, and then I'll look forward to seeing you on Sunday and worshiping together. That's a form of differentiation, rather than me saying, look, if you really love God, you'd have to think, see things my way and so on.

Adam 31:48

Oh,

Steve 31:49

That would be a tangible example of differentiation. Um, it's, it's, you know, as a pastor, I get so much pressure from so many people. On what they think a church should be and I'm a people pleaser and if I'm not careful, I will do what they want to appease them rather than what God's called me to do. So there's a lot there, but let me stop and see where you want to go from there.

Brian 32:12

yeah, there is a lot there. And I, I'm hearing so much of that self awareness. Um, not just of you as a three, because. Another beautiful thing about the Enneagram is you can talk about it without having to talk about the Enneagram and using that language, right? And that last example that you just provided for me, maybe I'm oversimplifying it, is that it's the difference between differentiation and manipulation. To not use your position of power, An authority to manipulate others to think, vote, act, behave, feel the way that you do.

Steve 32:47

It also frees you to be wrong and this is a huge thing for a leader. you're differentiated, like I'm connected to my vision and values. And the final step, I try to simplify it for a podcast, but the final step is make sure those vision and values are aligned with God, you know, um, Ferris Bueller. Some people would say Ferris Bueller is differentiated and I'd be like, no, um, he's not connected to reality. You know, you can't be crashing Ferraris. That's not cool.

Brian 33:14

He's dissociated.

Steve 33:15

he's, he's kind of detached. Yeah. Um, so, um, it gives you the freedom to say, you know what, I thought that this was God's way and I was wrong. And I've since learned. So it gives you the power to repent freely. And then that just models authenticity for your staff. So, you know, when I was the lead pastor, one of my nicknames was the chief mistake maker in residence. I mean, how will my staff ever learn that it's okay to make a mistake if the lead pastor is not making mistakes in public? Um, and there's plenty, plenty of those that happen for sure.

Brian 33:49

Yeah. Well, and the word that I think of is when you talk about having the ability to change your mind or to admit you're wrong, it's just humility. It's having that humility, and I think so many pastors or leaders get caught in this trap of their own making, of we have to keep pushing forward, I have to be right, because I'm speaking on behalf of God, or whatever it is, and you go on to say that leaders need not only that self awareness, but they need that group awareness,

Steve 34:16

Yeah,

Brian 34:17

right, because my actions will affect the people following me, or that I'm speaking with, or whatever it is, and because leadership always affects more than, involves more than one person, It involves a lot of things. So it's that managing and navigating that emotional context of yours and theirs. And I think leaders get caught in that trap and then therefore cause burnout, cause leadership fatigue, having to do with workload, constant pushing, how we manage emotional context and the boiling cauldrons that everyone is bringing to the team. So how do leaders keep themselves and others from burning out or burning down their teams?

Steve 34:59

that's a huge question. I think there's two things you can do. The first is to treat yourself like a human being.

Brian 35:06

Hmm.

Steve 35:07

of the tools I teach, um, I just say, Look, just make a list of how you treat people you love, like your family and your close friends. What do you do? And people make a list. I say, well, you know, I mean, I check in on them and see how they're doing. And when And then I listen and I really love and I express kindness. They, they make a list of, you know, how do you tangibly love someone? And then I'll just simply say, okay, what would happen if you were the first person on that list? If you treated yourself at least as well as you treat the people you love, what would change? One of the biggest things that changed for me is I stopped calling myself a moron. I would never in my wildest dreams call either of you stupid. I'd never do that to you. But I do that to myself multiple times a day. So number one, I think what happens with leadership, the reason we burn out, burn out is very little to do with workload,

Brian 35:58

Silence.

Steve 35:58

mostly to do with unaddressed reactivity is I would, I think most leaders are trying to be superhuman and we were trying to do more of God's job than God ever asked us to do. And you can still be very productive and make it like, uh, One of my friends is quite a world famous evangelist, and she's highly involved in anti sex trafficking, like a massive organization in multiple countries that rescues. I can't think of a more productive person. But she's still very human size. She takes care of herself. She's aware of when she's not well. It's really remarkable. So, this isn't some vision of sitting in a hot tub and doing nothing. This is a vision of being more productive. Um, So, the first thing is to actually work on your own wellness. Treat yourself at, you know, when Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself, that as yourself is a pesky amendment. Like, oh man, that means I have to treat, I have to love myself. Darn it. So, um, I've been doing this work a long time, but you know, if later today, if my wife says, how are you doing? My honest answer would be, I don't know. Cause I'm, my default is I don't know how I'm doing. I have to stop and wait to figure it out. I'm just unaware by default. That might surprise you, but I'm quite an unaware person. It's always intentionality. Uh, it doesn't come naturally to me. The second thing. And this is where it gets a little dangerous. Sometimes these tools are like handing someone a chainsaw without the safety lesson. But every group has the same rules, which is the minority of the people are generating the majority of the anxiety. So once you've kind of got yourself squared away, now you can look at your team. Who is the one team member that everyone is changing their behavior to get along with what the, the common rule of anxiety is the minority generator. The majority carry it. So you can look at your team right now. This is not every team, but most anxious teams. What you discover is a few people that are doing things that generate anxiety in others. But as long as you are generating it and never carrying it, you will never grow as a leader. So Brian, I think it was you that was talking about that unaware leader. I run into these people all the time and the stereotype is they were the founder or they were there in the beginning. I was this guy. And they poured it out and poured it out and poured it out to get the church or the organization where it is now. And now they're kind of like a bit arrogant about it where they're like, well, this is just the way it is. This is how it worked. You have to deal with it. And the team's like, well, we wish you would deal with it because we're tired of dealing with like, if you would deal with it, we would no longer have to. So I'm always coaching people. Once you've located the anxiety, how do you put it back on the person generating it? Not in a vindictive way. A simple example. You're in a meeting and Jim is late. He's the last one in. And he's always the last one in. And you as the leader get really mad in here, not out here. Because you believe being a Christian means I have to be nice all the time. You don't know how to have a direct conversation with Jim. He's generating it. You and all your team are carrying it. And so you're having anger fantasies about Jim, you're finding yourself having an overreaction, like he's just eight minutes late, but you want to kill him. Okay, pay attention to all of that. Now, how do you put the anxiety back on Jim? At some point you have to sit down with him and you have to say, hey, I need to confess something to you. You're always late and I never know what to do about it because I'm a conflict avoider and I have not honored you. Because I get really angry. If you knew how angry I got, you'd be mortified. I'm mortified. But what's doing, what's going on is you're late and I stuff it. I'm not gonna stuff it anymore. If you're late again, the next time you are late without telling us, I'm announcing to the whole room.

Brian 40:08

Silence. Silence.

Steve 40:09

Hey guys, we all know that Jim's late all the time, don't we? And we're all tired of it. Let's get started. And when he walks in late, let's all stop and stare at him. Okay, that'll do that'll do one or two things.

Brian 40:22

Silence.

Steve 40:23

If you say that's so rude, is it ruder than Jim late? Because what's going on is your whole team is carrying it. And now let's let's get really particular. If Jim were to text and say five minutes before, I'm so sorry, I'm going to be late. No problem. No problem. But what he, he has learned over years that he can show up whenever, his time is worth more than our time.

Brian 40:48

Silence.

Steve 40:49

Not, not in my organization. So that would be a tangible example of how do you locate the anxiety, notice the impact on others, and then put it back where it belongs. So what we tended to police when I was a lead pastor was behavior that negatively impacted the well being of others. That was really the number one thing. We would talk to you about if your behavior really only impacted you and not others. We were pretty loose about it, honestly.

Adam 41:14

Steve. Wow.

Brian 41:16

Thank you.

Adam 41:17

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I, I am replaying several staff scenarios in my mind that I did not lead very well. So, um,

Steve 41:26

and Adam, I've got to say, easy for me now to talk about it. I did this. I mean, there's so much that I put up with, uh, that I did wrong. I just, I feel just suddenly compelled to say, hey, well, I I was batting about 300 on this, maybe

Brian 41:44

Yeah, and thank you for that honesty too. I think that gives us the license to feel that as well and to

Steve 41:49

250. You only have to do this 15 to 30% of the time and it'll change everything. You can still, the majority of your habits and patterns of ignoring and stuffing can still happen, but if you just work on maybe 15% of the time, it can really profoundly change things.

Brian 42:05

That's really good to hear too.

Adam 42:06

Yeah. So helpful. This whole, uh, conversation has been so helpful and, uh, and hope filled and we're really grateful for you taking the time to be here with us, Steve, and to share with our audience. Um, is there anything left that, you know, left in your chest that you'd like to say anything that's kind of sitting in there that you want to make sure you say before we close and then also want to give you a chance to share about some exciting things that you have coming up. I know you have a new book and a conference that's launching, uh, in October. And so, yeah, maybe we can wrap up there. Thank you. Mmm,

Steve 42:37

Sure. I think, um, when we did these cohorts, we've been doing them for 11 years at our church, and a few years in, Uh, with Jimmy Karnes, who I've mentioned, he and I would co teach some of them. And he said something really profound to the group. I was teaching some of these tools. And when you hear this, it can feel overwhelming. Like, how do I begin? And this sounds hard, you know, and Jimmy, I think picked up on that. And he just said to the group, he's like, look, this all sounds hard because it is hard. The only thing harder is doing exactly what you've been doing. We all have these coping mechanisms. But we're so used to them, we're not aware of how much they're eating us up and the cost. Like, we're paying the cost. I saw this so much when I worked with people in domestic violence. We try to talk about all the things that we get. We had legal advice. We had a place to stay. We had places that would hire you. We had a whole path out of domestic violence into freedom. And a lot of these women would say, that just sounds so hard. And we'd be like, it's hard, but it's not as hard as what you're doing now. But when you've gotten used to it, chronic anxiety does kind of have an abusive element to it. It really does make you pay.

Adam 43:52

mmm,

Steve 43:53

So one of the deeper things, when I'm doing my workshops, I'll get into this, chronic anxiety has a gospel, it's got you on a path, it's dangling a promise, just like a gospel dangles a promise, the promise of anxiety is you can worry your way to peace. Just you, just keep working harder and try to do more of the same, but every gospel also has a payment. Someone's always paying, like even if you go back and study the Roman Empire, right? The Pax Romana, that was an actual gospel and Rome called it a gospel, the gospel of Rome. Well, the people were paying, Caesar wasn't paying, Caesar was benefiting and the people they conquered were paying. So every gospel has a payment.

Adam 44:34

mmm,

Steve 44:34

It really can help you change when you take note of how am I paying? And then I've learned to notice. Freedom in my body because in the gospel of Jesus, Jesus pays. I don't mean this in like a corny Sunday school way. So maybe this would help like when I was a chaplain and I'm doing these marathon shifts, these overnight like 28 hour shifts, maybe the beeper goes off at 1am and I've already had a really intense day. We started at 8am in the morning and we worked through to noon the next day. Just like you see on the hospital dramas, we'd have a little bed we could go sleep in sometimes, but you know, you get woken up through the night for people that needed something. Okay, so it's 1am and I'm in my little room and I'm brushing my teeth and washing my face. I've got to rush to this family and I'm just thinking, I can't do this. It's costing too much. I can't do it. And then on, down the hallway, the corridor, I'm just exchanging Gospels.

Adam 45:32

mmm,

Steve 45:32

You know what, actually, I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength because, because it's not on. So chronic anxiety makes you believe it's all on you.

Adam 45:42

mmm,

Steve 45:43

That's one of the ways you can notice you're in the grip of anxiety. I must, I have to, me, me, me. God's nowhere to be found. So, the exchange of the gospel is simply getting off the anxiety treadmill and learning to relax into the presence of God.

Adam 45:59

mmm,

Steve 46:00

And that's what I learned to do as a chaplain. I mean, I was in one of the most high stress, intense spiritual jobs I've ever had. And I could relax into God's presence while helping people in grief and cancer and burn victims and premature babies and everything that came through. To where I could walk into that room and remember I'm entering a place where God is sovereign. So I learned to do that when I preach. I'd walk out to that music stand. God is already here. I am not bringing God. It's not on me. I am entering a space where God's at work and I can relax into the sovereignty of God. And, and God, God pays, and I just get to be free and do my best, leave the outcomes to God, that's been profound for me, so I guess that would, I guess I'd finish where I started and just say, listen, your well being is so worth the extra work, um, I guess that's where I'd leave it.

Adam 46:53

yeah. That's such a good word, Steve. Uh, such a good word. And we have, you're doing some, you're doing some exciting things right around the corner, right? You've got to, you've got some new stuff coming out.

Steve 47:04

Yeah, you know, as, as I've studied Systems Theory and the dynamics, I got really fascinated, like, if, if chronic anxiety is based on something false, how does that impact our faith? So the first book was on leadership. So the second one is a systems treatment of discipleship. How do we grow in Christ when we're stuck in patterns? And how can we notice the dynamics at play, reactivity and recurring patterns is one thing you learn to notice and then attempted solutions is one thing you learn to notice in system series. So Jay Haley's a famous system series. He says when people come in for counseling, he says I don't address problems. I address attempted solutions. It's fascinating. And so, uh, what attempted solutions do we have in the church for our faith? And so the whole goal of the conference in October is to help us unlock the things we believe most deeply about God, God's love, God's presence, freedom in Christ, but we don't really experience them day to day. So I'm bringing in pastors, therapists, trauma experts. uniquely designed to help us unlock the things that are blocking a visceral encounter with Christ. And then my book comes out next May, and that's my, my theological treatment of it, uh, in May.

Adam 48:23

Very nice. How can people register for the conference if they're, if they're interested?

Steve 48:28

Yeah, then just go to CapableLife. me or CapableLife. com. Either one will get them there. And there's tickets there. You can join in person in Colorado. We also have streaming and on demand.

Adam 48:39

Very good. Well, Steve, you said something great earlier about the greatest commandment, love your neighbor as yourself. And that, uh, as yourself, you said as a pesky amendment, which I will be. I'll be stealing that line. I'll give you credit for it. I won't steal it. I'll use it and incite you. Uh, we recorded a whole podcast on just this thought. And so we're going to link it in the show notes. If anyone wants to go back and listen, I want to encourage you all to go, uh, find Steve, what's your Instagram handle. It's it's you've got to say it out loud.

Steve 49:08

Oh, Steve Cusswords is my Instagram and my Twitter.

Brian 49:11

I love it.

Adam 49:13

So everybody go to Steve cuss words and follow Steve's content so you can interact with him. You can find his books available on Amazon or wherever you purchase books. And Steve has just been such a gift to have you here. And, um, we're so thankful for, uh, your work and your presence and, and your voice really matters making, making a huge difference. Um,

Steve 49:33

conversation. Thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed it.

Adam 49:36

of course you can also find more like this on Instagram at your Enneagram coach, uh, or on our website at your Enneagram coach. com. And if you're looking for a way to make. More practical changes in your personal or professional life by learning about your type and how it affects you. You can check out our incredible certified coaches. Go book an Enneagram coach at my Enneagram coach. com. Brian, why don't you tell everyone what's coming up next week?

Brian 50:00

Absolutely. So next time we'll invite our colleague, Jessica Gorman, to talk about the Enneagram and coaching. We love the work that we get to do together as a coaching team, and we can't wait to share more with you next time. And remember the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It is the gospel that transforms us. So thank you for tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode.

Adam 50:24

Bye everyone.