Beth 1:12

Hey, everyone in today's episode, I get to talk with a type three, Dr. Allison cook, and she shares how she can take on a lot and get a lot done, but there can be a cost at all of that hard work. So she wanted to know how do I become a healthier version of three by taking on some of the healthy attributes of type six. So join me today as we walk through this journey with her and discovering what a healthy six does in asking for help and support. Hey everyone. Welcome back to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McChord, your Enneagram coach. And it's our passion here at YEC to help people understand themselves with astonishing clarity so that they can break free from the self condemnation fear and shame that we all experience quite often. Right. But we want to do that by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love. Forgiveness and freedom in Christ. So really we desire to use the Enneagram to bring real life change that is lasting transformation for yourselves personally and in your relationships. And we do that here at YEC by raising up the next generation of excellent Enneagram coaches. If you. So if you have a desire to learn and to grow in using the Enneagram within you're in the right place, whether you desire to be a professional Enneagram coach, or you just want to be that everyday user. So what we're going to do is we have a new format for our podcast. And in each episode, what I'm going to do is I'm going to combine engaging interviews with some special guests, but we're also going to engage in. Um, and it. Intriguing conversation on the Enneagram. So this could be where the guest is stuck or they're struggling. They have a question. They want insight. They want better clarity and understanding. We're going to just dive into the Enneagram, really focusing on what their needs are in the moment. So that's going to be really fun. For each episode to see, you know, what are people wanting and what are they needing and just kind of having the conversation together. And I'm hoping that as we do this, you'll learn as well, how to use the Enneagram in your everyday life and your relationships, um, because reading a bunch of books is great. Right. But. How do we actually incorporate this in our everyday life? So that's what I'm hoping that you're going to be seeing, um, or hearing because we are, um, on YouTube as well. So if you want, you can head over there, watch the podcast on YouTube. Um, we hope that you'll like, and subscribe to where all of our podcasts are. And we would also love it if you can leave, um, a review. Let people know how this podcast has been beneficial to you. So thank you guys so much for being a part of this conversation and, um, all the work that we do here at YEC. Now, uh, for those of you who are just like me and you love using the Enneagram to help the other person, then our become an Enneagram coach training might be the right fit for you. So. To find out, we have this sneak peek mini course that you can take. All you got to do is go to your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. And if you're here because you just want to personally grow in maybe your relationships, your work environment, well... This podcast is for you as well, just sit back, take some time to soak it all in, learn the different ways that we're talking about the Enneagram, how to incorporate with your own personal understanding of what's going on on the inside, and then try to use it on a daily basis in a way that doesn't bring the extra shame and the guilt. Like I've got to do this. I've got to do that. We're not here for that. We're here to explore, to Be creative to think, to know that God had created us in a unique way. But if you think that you need some extra help to go there, well, we've got some really qualified, trained Enneagram coaches to find the one that fits you best go to my Enneagram coach. com. Okay. With that, let's dive into today's special episode with my dear friend, Dr. Allison Cook. Now, Dr. Allison is a therapist, author, and podcast host who empowers women to heal from past wounds, develop strong sense of their own personal self, forge healthy relationships with others, and experience a loving God. Who is for them now, her podcast and email reach over 60, 000 people each week. She specializes in bringing faith and psychology together to create real change in people's lives. Now her first book, Boundaries for Your Soul, is a faith based adaptation of the fast growing evidence based internal family system, or IFS. And that is a, um, model of therapy that she uses. Now it provides a step by step approach in managing emotions in partnership with God. Now, this book was instrumental in my own personal growth since its release in 2018. And in fact, it inspired me with my latest book, more than your number, which. Focuses on how we are more than just our main type that we actually have other parts within us that are chiming in and affecting us on an ongoing basis, which for me, that just highlights our wings and the two numbers that we're connected to in the lines, which I call any grant pass. Now her newest book, uh, the best of you teaches women how to develop strong sense of self set wise limits and forge healthy relationships with others. Now you can find Alison at drAllisonCook. com and that's with one L, drAllisonCook. And with that, let me introduce you to drAllison. Hey, drAllison. It's so good to have you here today.

Alison 6:59

Hi Beth. This is, this is so fun. I always look forward to talking with you. So thanks for having me.

Beth 7:05

Oh, absolutely. Like, well, before we even started, we were bantering on and, uh, Nate, who's our podcast producer, my son also was like, Hey guys, this would be really awesome in the podcast. And we're like, Oh, okay. So we could definitely go on and on and on for hours because we just have such a good time. Um, but. I don't think I ever told you this, but, and maybe I did, I don't remember, but we were driving home from a fishing vacation and I was listening to boundaries for your soul. I mean, this is obviously years and years ago when it first came out. And I was like, Oh my goodness. One, this is such a great book too. She's got to know the Enneagram. That's what I was thinking. She's got to know the Enneagram. Like, he didn't say it at all in the book, but I was like, I'm hearing Enneagram without being in the book. So I was like, Oh my gosh, I've got to meet her. And I was able to meet you, um, at the American Association of Christian Counselors Conference. And then we. Got to do an I F S and the Itegrated workshop in 2020. And since then, it's just like, anyway, we've had so much fun. It's still, you know, a delight to not only, you know, know you, but just to be a friend. And I can't wait for everyone here today to kind of learn about, you know, what you do. So can you share with everyone like what your passion is and why you write books and do your podcast? Like, where's that? overflow that passion

Alison 8:29

coming from. Yeah. Thank you. It's so interesting as we've gotten to know each other, right? Your love of the Enneagram is sort of, and then you've got this underneath thing with the IFS. And for me, it's IFS on the surface, but the Enneagram is definitely. Right there in it. And you were exactly right that as we were writing Boundaries for Your Soul and we were thinking of examples of different parts, we would kind of run the wheel. My co author Kimberly and I, because she also loves the Enneagram, was like, okay, well, we got to think about, but what about the sevens? But what about the, and that would help inform how we created illustrations of different parts. Right. And then you went ahead and created that in your, in your, uh, wonderful book about, you know, more than your number. Um, so I started out, you know, I, I guess, Uh, not to give you the whole story, but, you know, grew up in a Christian home. And what I like to say, what I say in the best of you is, you know, had a really strong faith in God and a love for Jesus and knew a lot about God, got really into like theology and religion and college. Um, and I didn't know one thing about myself and, and I also thought. That, that was bad. I thought self was bad, right? Like I had this idea and there, there was some implicit and explicit messaging around that in the era that I was growing up with it, you know, you should always deny yourself. You should always bypass yourself. Emotions are bad. You can never trust yourself. And so it took me decades, you know, into my thirties to sort of, as I was studying psychology and studying, you know, how to help other people to realize, Oh, I, Okay. I don't have a clue about who I am. And so a lot of my work, you know, I learned about this IFS model and it just completely. You know, set off all the lights as to how we function as human souls that God made. Um, and so that became my passion. And then the best of you was kind of unpacking why it's important in terms, you know, in our relationship with God, why we have to understand ourselves that the two go hand in hand.

Beth 10:21

Wow. Yeah, it was just so instrumental for me, both books. And, um, I think I reached out after the, the best of you, I was like, okay, I've got to reach out and like, do more like one on one coaching with you because. One, I loved your passion. I love the direction you were going. And so since then, you know, you've really helped me to understand myself even better. And I'm sure everyone's out there like, but you're your Enneagram coach, guys, we all are on this journey, you know, like, you know, just because I have understanding or knowledge about the Enneagram or the type nine does not mean I always know myself. In fact, I'm a type nine people. This is really hard. And so, and that's, that's where you've been instrumental in my life to help me unpack and understand on deeper levels. Um, and so it's been really helpful, but I love to hear, and I know everyone else would love to hear, how did you first hear about the Enneagram and like, what was your journey and, and, and your journey and discovering your type? Cause I'm sure that's also going to be pretty intriguing.

Alison 11:23

Yeah, that, that was definitely a saga. So I first learned about the Enneagram when really. I think I'd probably heard of it through Richard Rohr's, uh, original book, but I didn't know much about it. And I did a, um, spiritual community, a spiritual listening community to an organization called Leadership Transformations here in New England. And um, Steve Macchia, um, who works with Adele Calhoun, some of, some of these folks who are doing the Enneagram in New England, um, they really. Uh, use the Enneagram as a tool for spiritual formation. So that's where I first, um, and everybody, uh, actually one woman, when we were first taking the test, this was about 10 years ago. It was like, you're definitely a three just based on my history. And I was like, I am definitely not a three. I am a two. And I took the test and I could kind of maneuver the test. That's why I always tell people, I love your test. And I can say it's at the end, you really have to, it forces you to really choose between two of your, um, but I was very proud of being a two. I just thought that was fantastic. You know, I just, I was like, yes, you know, so, so I just thought I was a two for a good pride, five years, five, six years. And that just felt really good to me. I am just a really good helper, um, until the, that, that mask had to come off and I had to go into the shame, which really felt shameful to me, um, to realize that I really was, there was really a three part, uh, driving it all underneath. Wow.

Beth 12:44

And what was that? I mean, like, how did that unfold? Like how, what was the aha moment? And like you said, it's like the shame. And, and I think that's, that is, let me just point this out to those are listening a lot of times. If not most of the time, you've got to know your type when it hurts. And the reason why I say that it's not that it should hurt because God created us to display these wonderful attributes of the type that we are, the main type that we have. And obviously if we were all in the garden of Eden, we would. be displaying it beautifully and it'd be amazing, but we're on this side. And so it has its complications and liabilities and weaknesses. And usually as humans, we focus solely on that, right. And when we see it, whether on paper or someone's talking to us about our main type. And we can really start to see, let's say the shadow side, some people call it, or, you know, the false self, or what I call the wounded child, you know, the things that are not our favorite parts of who we are, that kind of really clear. We then start to feel shame or guilt or condemnation. And that's why I do what I do here at your anchor and coach, because like, yes, I, I get it. I, I understand why that's not so fun to see, but Christ has redeemed all things and we can rest in his provision. So all that to be said, walk me through that process of kind of the three in your face, so to speak. And you're like, yeah,

Alison 14:19

I was, I was, you know, it's interesting how God works too. Right. Because it's almost like I needed a little bit more. Safety to base. The parts of me that we're going to feel shame, you know, and, and, you know, it's just the beauty of God's timing in a way that as we kind of, um, and if you think about the core, um, I think I, I love the way the phrases you use, but I hate using the word flaw, but the core sort of problem, right? With the three is deception. And what happened is I was part of this small group and I found a spiritual had come out and I was just really, and they were like, there's a lot of achievement going on here. You don't know. No, it's not about achievement. It's about helping others. And just gently, you know, this, this group of women was kind of like, huh, you know, and I really started to kind of do this process of going, you know, Lord, what, what does drive me? You know, what really prayerfully looking at some of my patterns and, and the aha moment was really in the context of this small group, because the thing that was always didn't make sense to me about the three is I don't puff myself up. If anything, I'm minimized. My goal orientation. I try to pretend and and and even as I'm saying it and it was just sort of like this. Oh my gosh, that's a form of deception. It doesn't have to just be, um, It's, it's that chameleon it's right. I don't want anybody as a woman, I don't want anyone to think that I'm going for it or that I have ambitions or that I'm achievement oriented, especially growing up in a Christian household. Right. That's what women that's, that was very shameful, um, to me. And so what I did, how I coped was just kind of this, this little three part of me that, you know, it's just like, Oh no. It's, it's, it's all about helping others, you know, so I'll become the best to, you know, right. And then the deception is sort of in almost, almost hiding from myself, you know, that, um, that, that real underlying motivation, which I've, I've had to work really hard on that to feel. As a Christian woman before God, is it really okay to be goal oriented? Is it okay to honestly really prioritize a lot of efficiency? Sometimes I'm less relational, you know, I, I, I can be really relational, but there are parts of me that it's like, it's, it's can get transactional. Oh, that feels so, you know, bad. And so I had to do a lot of work in the last few years to just, but I will say the truth does set you free. Um, it really felt like the Lord just pulling out this This root, like there's, there doesn't have to be shame here. I made you this way. Um, and we can, we can work toward it. You know, once you know what the root is, you can move toward health. So that's what I love about the Enneagram.

Beth 17:04

Okay. So I want to unpack a little bit of what you said for those that are listening, because I think it's so intriguing. So as Uh, type three, one of your defensive mechanisms is identification. So you're going to identify with the group or the belief system or whatever it is in, in your surrounding. Yeah. The three is trying to, like you said, become a chameleon or shape shift to be the best or to achieve or be admirable in that community and in the Christian community, especially when we grew up. It was absolutely stated that you are not to focus on yourself. You're supposed to focus on others, die to yourself, you know, and, um, so it came across as thinking of yourself in any way, shape, or form or any ambitions, especially like you said, as a woman, that was wrong and bad. And so, but to be a servant. Was, um, and, and to be helpful and behind the scenes like that was really like the best thing you should be doing. Yes. So I can see your little three part, you know, as a little girl, like, oh, I get it. I see what people are saying is the best for this. Exactly. And I'm gonna be. Exactly. And you probably were really awesome at it. The other thing I'm also hearing is, um, so there are instinctual subtypes. There's three instinctual subtypes, there's self preservation, social, and one to one and other teachers call it sexual or intimate. And we all use all three of them, but one usually is dominant. And then there's a second and a third, um, we call that stacking. I don't know if I've even talked to you about which one you have. Have you ever looked into that? Are you familiar with it? Yeah,

Alison 18:55

very, a little tiny bit in the little that I've looked into it. I think I fit the one to one, which is kind of, if I understand it, you tell me, but is it kind of, you attach yourself to the, it's not the status one. So

Beth 19:08

the status one, like the one that people think of threes, like the stereotypical three that we read in the book is the social three, like here I am world. Like look at all my accomplishments, you know, and there. You know, ready for the show. The self preservation one is they have vanity that they don't have vanity. So yeah. So it's really interesting because that's what you were kind of basically saying. Now, like I said, we use all three. So the, the one to one three is really trying to be the best, um, spouse, the best mother, the best in the family unit. All right. So. The self preservation in the, in the, uh, one to one could very well be like very close. So which one might be the top one for you? That could be, you know, another day, another conversation to unpack that. But what I was hearing at least in, in the little conversation that you were talking about is that the self preservation three is actually the counter type. There's always one counter type of these three and each of the types. And this counter type of the three actually looks more one ish interesting because they're trying to be good. Yeah. Now it's a little bit different than being right, which is the type one. This three is trying to be good. So there's the, the guys of being right, but it's really about other seen that they're being good. Yeah. And it has to, again, all be under the umbrella of what is the society that you're around say is good. So for you being in a Christian community, what's being good is to not have vanity, to not show off, to not have ambitions, to not be self focused. And so. It's like, Oh, well, in order to survive in this community, I need to actually not show off though, deep down, I really do have these ambitions. And so I'm going to, I'm going to position myself in a way that looks helpful. Um, while still accomplishing things, because that's just your nature, that's how God created you to be. So it's like, you're still trying to get to that spot, but in a way that can be admired by those around you. Does that kind of make sense?

Alison 21:29

Isn't true? Yes. Yeah, it really does. Yeah.

Beth 21:33

Um, and so when you, you're like, but I'm not like the typical three, it's usually not always because the one to one three is, is very, is still very different than the social three. The social three is the one that everyone's thinking when they're thinking three. And um, so it's really understanding why some people get confused if they're a three or not. Like what? Yeah. But when I read about a three, I don't do that. And it's like, yeah, that's okay. Because it's all about the motivation behind it. And I think that's where you landed, right? Like once you started pulling things apart, you were like, Oh, I really do resonate with the motivations of the three over the two. And that,

Alison 22:14

that, that the big one was. With the two, the, the, the hook is kind of wanting people like if people step away, you kind of want people to stick with you, you, um, and that didn't resonate at all because for me, it was like, I, I don't, I, I'm not actually looking for the relational attachment. I'm not actually looking to keep people to stay. with all the helping activities. I'm looking for the attagirls you know, and, and I, I'm not, you know, just, you know, I'm not looking. So people are like, if I help someone and they go along their merry way, I'm thrilled as long as I get the atta girl from it, from the world, you know, from the culture around me. Yeah. Right. And so that was, that motivational thing was just, that was another big one for me was, oh, I'm not, I'm not doing this to. to keep people hooked on me relationally. Um, that, that's not my goal at all. And that's such a

Beth 23:09

great way of saying it. And that's a great way of distinguishing the two because, and that's where, you know, IFS, and then, you know, what we've done is EIP where we're To say, okay, so your main type, the type three is the driving force behind everything, but that two wing does play a significant role still. Um, and so you are helpful. Um, you do enjoy helping in this way that God. Um, created you to bless others. And of course, with everything, there's the healthy to the unhealthy strategies, you know, and where our heart condition is at any given moment. And so it's, it's intriguing to see how our personality comes forth in varying ways in varying circumstances. Um, and so I wanted to then dive in. So, you know, we kind of unpacked how you, you know, discovered your three. And I just want to let everyone know people miss typing themselves is. Very common. And it makes sense because if we have, if we use all nine types to varying degrees, and then like, if you unpack the EIP, the Enneagram internal profile that we have in our book, more than your number, or if you do IFS, you realize, wait, I have a lot of other parts that are chiming in here, which makes it hard and confusing depending on how loud those parts are too. So. What I was also intrigued by the other day, you were talking to me about, you know, being a three, but also with this heavy, strong to part of you that pretty much that anything lands on your plate, you'll take up for the most part. Now, usually for the three, it's if I know I can accomplish it. You know, and get it done and done well, but you'll, you'll take it on. You'll say yes. And really overextend yourself. And you recognize that usually when you overextend yourself, you can move towards the nine space and kind of shut down or check out, but you were like, but Beth, I really want to venture into exploring what it's like to move to the healthy six, unpack what that might look like, but can you. Just for, you know, myself, but also for the audience, can you unpack that just a little bit further? Help us to understand what you feel like your dilemma is and the circumstances that this usually goes around.

Alison 25:31

Yeah, I mean, I, I think I was saying to you, like, I kind of understood the three. I understand my two wing. I understand when I go in unhealth to the nine real, really, really well. I have a strong sense. seven parts. We've talked a little bit about that. I kind of understand that kind of plays into the escapism of the nine. Um, I actually, you know, the one number that I have the hardest time relating to on the whole wheel is six. And I'm pretty sure you, you correct me if I'm wrong. That's actually the line I go to and help. Yeah. And so every once in a while, like this last few weeks, I had a lot on my plate. I was really in kind of the And very consciously, you know, you and I both know sometimes we, you know, I'm like, Oh, I'm aware that three part of me right now is getting the job done. And I'm aware that, you know, much more consciously aware of when that part is really dry. But it's like, okay, it's for a limited amount of time. And I'm going to really need to take some time to, you know, kind of unwind in a healthy way after this season. But I was a little I'll be like, What would it mean to go to six right now? And I honestly, like, Kind of have this big question mark. And the only thing I'll think about, and I have a little bit of a, a part of me is a little bit like, I don't understand that is I think sixes are really good at asking for help. I think they're better at creating networks and systems around them. As opposed to being sort of a lone Ranger. I have, I've just have a self sufficiency chip that. Will not end. Um, it is very hard for me to delegate. It's very hard for me to get support. I thought in the height of when I'm overextended, I'll look at my texts and I'll have, you know, normal, some friends, some, you know, you know, 20 texts from people asking for help. And I'll just bing, bing, bing, bing, bing respond. I cannot imagine. Just sending a text saying, Hey, I need help. Like literally I kind of go deer in the headlights and I'm aware that that is sort of a incongruent. I do know how to schedule. I think I was saying to you, it's not like I know how to, I've learned how to schedule support and that's, that's a good coping tactic for me cause I won't ask. for it. So if I have an appointment, I'll attend the appointment. Um, so yeah, I think that was sort of where that, I was kind of curious, like, I don't really have this sense of in my mind of what it would look like to move to that healthy six, like even envisioning, you know, 10 years down the road, would it look like having a more robust support? I don't, I'm not sure what I even aim for. It's just so

Beth 27:59

foreign to me. Your husband's A type. We

Alison 28:04

think he, he's either an eight or a counterphobic six. I will say he is exceptional asking for help. He's exceptional at setting up support at delegating, you know, he runs a company and he's just. No problems there, you know, and I'm just like, well, that will never be me. Um, but, and so maybe it's also part of what I'm looking at. And I think you, you know, it's like I, I'm like, that's, I can't do it that way. So what would it look like realistically for me?

Beth 28:35

Yeah, no, I think that's great. And neither. I mean, the eight and the six can be the eights are incredible delegators. Yeah. Um, and the sixes are great in asking for help and they will delegate once they establish the trusted network and stuff. Um, so I can see, yeah, how You know, probably he has, you know, a little bit of both of those, but the reason why I was asking is because how different I'm sure he is, like, whereas Jeff is, uh, you know, we know he's a type six and he is so good at asking for help. And I'm just like you. And so as a nine, I, I don't ask for help because I don't want to bother anyone. Like, I mean, if I don't want to do it, why would I ask someone else to do it? That's such a like, you know, feature of mine. Um, but then I have a very strong three part of me that is like, you know what? I can get it done. You know, I'll just, you know, put my nose to the grind and let's like get it done. And, um, but it ultimately doesn't help or work. I mean, you know, it might work for a season, but it ultimately leads to some form of burnout, but I'm just like you. And I'm like, I don't know what it really looks or feels like to ask for genuine guidance and support and help. So yesterday I was like, I was asking, uh, Jeff and my son, who's also a six, like, uh, can you guys like help me to understand, you know, like, what is it like just to naturally ask for help? Like, what is, what is that? Feel like, and it was really interesting because Jeff was like, well, you know, there's obviously the unhealth, like, you know, we have a lot of self doubt and so, and we don't trust ourselves. So we go looking for help and security and guidance to feel safe and secure to move forward. So he's like, there's that, but he said, no, on the healthy side, yes, we recognize in the reality of life. Cause they're very much realists. I know a lot of us experience success as pessimists, but they're realist. They're like, I, in a healthy way, see that I can't do it all. And I don't have all the information and that there is others out there that I can count on for support. Now it may not be a ton of people, cause I mean, you know, we can't trust everyone, but they do, they do test the waters. That's six is a really good at testing. Um, but they do find those trusted gems that they can go to on a regular basis for a variety of different things. Thanks. And because they recognize that they are vulnerable and that they do need help, I think where I would love to go, because it's like, you're probably like, well, I know that that sounds great, you know, but I still can't do it, you know, but I was, but so what I wanted to do was to ask. One, hearing about the six moving towards their own health and asking for help and being in reality, what, what feelings or thoughts or inclinations, like, what does even your body feel like to think of it to ask for help?

Alison 31:47

Yeah. I wonder, I was thinking when you were describing it, how a six, I wonder if that realism means they're also discerning because, right, so. I think immediately where I went in my body when you were describing that was actually just last night. My husband said we were looking at that research about friendship that says, you know, it's the five, it's Dunbar effect, five, 15, 20, and you have these circles and who are your inner five. And then you have like you're trusted. And I went during the headlights because I was like, I have tons of friends, right? As a three. Right. I. Um, but are they, it's been, it's taken me years to go, wait, what is the difference between a trusted friend who you can versus just people that you make happy or do tasks for? Yeah. Right. Right. Cause I also have in the strength finders a little bit of, I have a lot of empathy and a little bit of woo. Right. So there's that piece. And so, um, I was just listening to you thinking, I wonder if some of, some of what I'm thinking, the word that kind of came to mind was just. Being really discerning and strategic, right? It's not just asking for help willy nilly. It's who are those couple of people I really trust and that feels a little bit more manageable. So I think when you're talking about the realism of the six actually kind of felt like, Oh, right. It's not just that you trust everybody. It's that you're pretty judicious and discerning about, no, these are a couple of people who are kind of in this different category of, oh, and if I could kind of mentally almost kind of, you know, kind of put a little different circle around those in my, in my mind.

Beth 33:35

Yeah. And one thing I've noticed with, with Jeff and I'm sure other sixes, but of course he's the one I see the most is that he has. Several of these most trusted friends, but different categories of life, you know, so there might be a trusted person for the business, you know, getting information from, from them on direction for the business. And then there's relationship, there's inner work. And so, but it's taken him time, like you said, discernment to find those. Yeah. That are trustworthy and wise enough, not that they're perfect. And maybe that is, I know, like for me, it's like, well, but then, you know, who's the perfect right one. It's like, okay, again, the realism. Okay. It's not that they have to be perfect and now as a six, when they're not healthy, they're going to be suspicious of, of, of anyone that's interesting. So again, it's all about the health and when they're healthy, they recognize. I can't demand this person to be absolutely trustworthy. They are human too, but they have a lot that they can offer me. So is a six,

Alison 34:46

there's strategy involved is what I hear. Are they, are they, uh, cause they're

Beth 34:49

ahead. Yeah, their head type and it's all the whole strategy is around preventing and eluding anything that could make like any negative outcomes. Okay. And of course, it's worst case scenarios at the ultimate, but it's really just anything that's. They're, they're trying to prevent any negative thing that might come their way. So they're thinking ahead, but they, here's, what's so interesting about the six is they have incredible discernment that you're talking about. Like my mom's a six, my son's a six, my husband, my just like us are rounded by six. They are so discerning, but what's happening internally, the record player message that's going on internally is. Don't trust yourself. I can't trust myself. And here's the reason is because they have that inner committee that it's chiming in from all different directions and insights and perspectives. And so it's like, well, which one do I trust? But ultimately their true self knows the direction they should go, or they at least know that they need to go get help in a healthy way. Um, but when they're not so healthy, they are going to be suspicious of themselves and others and it can kind of spiral them into a. A mind of frenzy of what, what could happen. Mm-hmm. and trying to prevent all those negative things, but in the healthy realm, they're like, okay, I know I can't get this all done by myself. I need a team. I need a system. Yeah. Interesting that I can trust that I've vetted and I will listen to them to a point, but I also need to trust. How the Holy Spirit is talking to me and the direction he's wanting me to go. Now, sometimes that's through wise counsel of others. And sometimes that's just understanding what the Lord is speaking to us internally. And that ultimately for the six is the direction of their health, is to listen to themselves and to trust that wise part of who they are, that discerning part. And so for the three, how does that land on you? Because really, you know, you're wanting to go to that higher part of six. Right. But you're a three. Right. So it's a combination. How does that information land on you as a three and how does that be beneficial?

Alison 37:06

That's super helpful in a couple of ways because. I'd never thought about like, so for me, I would trust myself before I would trust somebody else. So it's a, it's, there's an opposite, right? The self sufficiency is I'll just get it done myself. Yeah. That'll, you know, um, but what I like about what you're saying that is helpful to me is I think how I've thought about asking for help as I'm thinking about it from this heart. Way. This heart centered. Oh, and, and rarely there's something about when you said they actually are really good at, they almost, in order to manage their inner committee, they set up an app, a trusted outer committee, right? And there's something about, I thought, Oh, that's that there's wisdom in having a committee. Um, maybe three to five people that you've appointed. So in my case, it would be because I know I ultimately am fallible and I need, it's not so much an emotional, I mean, I will die before I will, um, drop a ball. It's, it's, it's rarely the kind of like you're doing, you know, it's when I have a need, it is more like I need to, I need, it's like a, a, a virtue that I'm aware of, that it's wise to have a committee to, and my husband is one of my, you know, I have my sister, you know, it's not that, but it's like to go, Hey, can I get, Can I bounce this off of you, right? There's a, there's a discipline to that. And that there's something about what you're saying that I hear in the six, it's, it's a self preservation. There's a discipline to it that resonates more with, and again, maybe this is kind of It's a gendered thing being a woman. It's less like emotional support in a way. It's almost more because what I'll notice is like, let's say I'll go to my sister or to my husband. We'll just pry the ball. If I'm juggling, he'll just pry the, and it is painful. I feel for him. We're putting that down. We're putting that down. You're putting that ball down. You know, cause any, you know, we both. Our hard workers, but he just is so much better at the balance. And so I do have a couple of people, but beyond that, just in terms of friendship, what you're helping me identifies, it might not be for me that in the moment, I'm going to send out an SOS for emotional support. It might be that I have a couple of people that I trust to say, Hey, my, my plate is full. I need another set of eyeballs on. Kind of the different things I'm doing, can you help me make wise decisions? Can you help me be discerning? Can you help me go, Hey, Alison, even if I don't want to hear it, like You're, you're over, you're over stretching, even if you can do it doesn't mean you should like that kind of feels good to me that I don't know there's something

Beth 39:50

about that. Yeah, let's unpack that because why? Okay, so why would that feel good? The reason why I'm asking that because typically, as a three, when you're not in your healthier spot, so that's why I'm like, okay, let's talk about that because that's a very healthy thing to say as a three when you're not as healthy. So there's going to be moments where getting help is going to be really hard and challenging because the three is all about the image that they're competent and capable and efficient and can get it done. So by asking for help, you're freely admitting. I'm incapable to some degree and vulnerable, you know, all the things that can really be fearful for the three. Yeah. And I love the fact that you're like, Oh wait, that feels good. So how did you get there? Like what brought you there?

Alison 40:42

Yeah. And it's something you just said, because what I cannot do, what feels weak or is in the moment of need, it is impossible, impossible for me. It's almost impossible for me to send a text saying. In that moment of vulnerability, I have a need. So it's getting me there is the idea of its strategy. It's, it's setting it up so that, and again, this is where I'm, I'm kind of listening to my system that I'm currently using might not be all bad. I could just beef it up, which is scheduling appointments so that it's, it's not that I have to, in the moment of feeling overwhelmed. That's just really hard for me. I don't, to, to, to say, I just would rather get myself through it to the other side. And then when I'm on the other side, say to someone, okay, here's what I just went through. I can do that. It's, it's, it's, I just almost cannot, when I'm in the middle of something, ask for help. But what I like about kind of thinking about it from that strategy is if I had a committee of two to three people, It, even if I can't get myself to do it in the moment, if I'm regularly checking in and they know me well, they're going, they're going to start to pick up on some of those cues.

Beth 42:05

If that makes sense. Yep. And I think what's also all of that, just amazing, I think also for. The person that you're working with or as a friend or whoever's going to come alongside you, and there could be several people, like you said, is for them to ask the right questions to a three, right? Um, and for them to understand the type three makeup because. You know, honestly, what could be really challenging for the three is that you might meet with that person and be like, yeah, things are going great. Like I got this done and I just turned it, cause I know you just turned into man in your script and like, you know, like I'm killing it. Like everything's fine. Cause in the moment you might feel fine. Seven or threes are, um, the most optimistic on the Enneagram and they have lots of, yeah. And so it could be so if you are, you know, hanging out with someone, they're like, Oh, great. I'm so glad you're doing well, you know, and completely mess. Exactly. The underlying thing that's really going on because it's not just that in a, here's the thing about deceit with threes. It's not that you are trying to be deceitful. It's not that you're trying to keep something from them. It's that the three does it to themselves for exactly, exactly. And so then you're like saying, Hey, things are great, you know, and then later it's like, wait, things aren't great. Or the person's like, Hey, you said they were great, but they're not, you know, it's like, no, I'm not trying to be deceitful. In order for the three as a child, for them to quote unquote succeed, they needed to push aside their identity and their emotions. To take on whatever identification they thought they were required to do to be successful. And so that's what I'm really hearing from you as we unpack all this is that two part of you really needed to shine, to feel safe and secure. And it wasn't that you were pushing your three authentic parts of you aside because you. Uh, or trying to be deceitful, you're just trying to survive and that's the way that you knew how to do it. That's how

Alison 44:24

you survive. My, it's so interesting listening to you because two things came to mind. One is I had a friend at some point telling me how what's really hard for her about threes was. That they don't share in the messy middle. They tell you what's happened afterwards. And I remember thinking, Oh, um, but it's funny because what my husband will do, like if I'm going through something, he kind of knows before I do. Cause the more I'm going through, the more I'm like, I'm fine. Right. That's how I'm coping. Right. And he'll, he started saying, okay, two weeks from now, we'll have a conversation about what's really going on. Great. But what's, what's nice about that is it's non shaming. Cause again, there's that shame of, Oh, you know, I'm, I'm, and, and I love what you said because it's so true. The person we are deceiving the most is ourselves. And, and we're not, and it's, it's so much work to consciously, like I've grown so much just to be able to go, I'm, I'm probably not fine. And I'm also fine when two things can be true and it doesn't mean, and I am going to need to cry about this a week from now. I am. That's, that's real growth for me. Well,

Beth 45:35

and that's how it was when I work with you. It's like in the moment I'm like, yeah, oh wait, like I'm wait, I thought I was doing okay, but man, and then like a couple of days later I'm like falling apart or whatever, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's cause the nine is trying to submerge, like suppress everything. And the three is like, I'm going to ignore it just to keep focused and let go. And so it is hard for us to be in that vulnerable place. And I think it's valuable that we do have moments that are, that were really vulnerable and can go there with, with that safe person, that person that doesn't shame us or knows that we're going to shame ourselves. And they're there. To like really walk with us. Um, but that's far and few between. And so I think I agree with what you're saying is that if you set up times, if I set up times to have people walk this journey with us and they know that, you know, cause we're all to some degree, not okay. Right. We're on this side of heaven. And that doesn't mean that we have to unpack all the dirty laundry all the time, but it's like, Hey, how are you really doing? Like. What is your, like, I think what you were saying is having someone say, Hey, show me what's going on. Like what's on your plate, you know, can you tell me why you chose these things, you know, and not as a judgment, just as a curiosity and exploring it with you and helping. You kind of as a mirror back, like, so tell me, how is this working for you? You know, what does it feel like? And again, if some of it might have to learn later and you look back, you know, but then how do we use those lessons to move forward in a different way without the shame or judgment?

Alison 47:14

It's yes, because the hiding from yourself also, you can hide from yourself. All that you're doing one, one of the things, like both my husband and my sister who are kind of have become, uh, as my sister's kind of understood the Enneagram, I'll say, Oh, I got nothing done. You know, she'd be like, what did you actually get done today? And I'll tell her and she'll be like, yeah, you know, and, and, and again, there's no shame, but it is that second set of eyes and ears. I'm curious that for, for you. And I, cause I think we're similar on this. with the nine and the three. But if I were to, I do need people with whom to have the emotional vulnerability. Um, however, if I were to discern in the moment that that wasn't really going to be what I needed, I can just so quickly. Um, and that's that need. Tremendous need for, and I'm sure everyone's that, that way to some degree, but that ability to just immediately pivot and go, Nope, you know, I'm going to put back on, but I'm fine because I, I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of sensitivity underneath. And I, I was looking through your materials and you talk about how the three actually underneath has a fair amount of loneliness, a fair amount of these vulnerable. It's not that we don't have them, right? And that's that chameleon. And again, it can feel shaming, but it's like, Whoa, it's almost like going to that place of honesty is so, so vulnerable that I'm not, I'm just not going to do it at all.

Beth 48:49

Well, what I learned, and I can't remember who said this. Um, I think it was in a workshop I was in and it may have just been a three that was on a panel talking about it, but it was so interesting. They said that to be vulnerable and to go inward was like, you know, being way up here. So on, for those that are not watching the podcast, um, on YouTube, um, have a line way up, like near my forehead. So like, you know, this is where you're living, like achievements, goals, knocking things out, like doing great. But to go inward and to really understand the inner world and the pain and the sorrow and the authenticity, the realness for the three to get there, which is way, let's say down at the bottom. And that doesn't mean down at the bottom, like that's a negative. It's just, it, it's going inward to get there. It feels to the three, like a free fall into blackness and that free falls. Like, you know, if someone just pushed you out of an airplane, I mean, the feeling that that would like, if you don't know if you have a parachute or whatever, like the fear, that's really what the three is experiencing when you're asking them to be vulnerable and transparent, um, to the degree that people would see they're not valuable or worthwhile or competent or efficient or whatever the fears for the three, it feels like this black hole that they're falling and they can't see where they're going to end up landing now through all of the work you've done, you've Done this time and time again that you know, you know, actually there is safety in the vulnerability. Yeah. But I think it's good for the threes to recognize that free fall feeling is natural and it's okay. And it doesn't have to be shaming because usually what the three will do is they just bounce right back up. Once they start to feel the free fall, they're like, Nope, sorry, I'm just going to go to another task. I'm going to do another thing and on and on. And so they don't usually allow themselves to hit the vulnerability and the reality of the situation because of that free fall. Does that Does that resonate?

Alison 50:52

Yes. And I, I had, um, to learn, I remember in my thirties, the first time I hit that real bottom and it was scary and I had to learn how to receive care primarily through therapy, you know, a therapist, spiritual direction, spiritual community that works, you know, that's where I learned. I was like, okay, I cannot not. Go there. Um, and these are safe people, you know, but again, those aren't friendships, right? Those aren't reciprocal friendships. I can do. I'll say to people. Sometimes I know how to give support. I know how to receive support from experts. Yes, the two way the in the moment to a reciprocity of human friendship is very hard for me. You know, it's, it's, and I think it's. in part, because what you're saying, it's like I had to teach myself how to go into the painful emotions that, that, and I did that through the course of receiving care from trained, because that's just how sensitive it felt. Um, but it's still just. Yeah, because if you think about a two way friendship between two girlfriends or, um, you know, and I'll watch sometimes women and I know Becky probably relate to this. I'm like, how do they do that? You know, where there's just this ongoing sort of like, I'm having a bad day. And I'm like, I can't do that. That, you know, it's too vulnerable. I need to be okay. And then when I'm not okay, I'm, I can do that, but I have to really think hard about how to do that. You know, it's, I can't do that in between. And so sometimes that's part of the loneliness, right? It's, um,

Beth 52:28

yeah. And I, and I really appreciate, you know, all that you're saying, cause I think so many, there are threes out there are going to feel like she is. Speaking exactly my life or someone who is a friend or a partner or a business associate or something with a three like oh wow, like they They're so capable and competent and yet can also feel so lonely but at the same time not See it or recognize it until I wouldn't say it's too late because it's never too late but until it really hits In a hard way. And I think that's what you were saying, like Beth, I, I know that I can take on a lot and I can do a lot and do a lot well, but there's usually a cost at continually picking up all these different balls and juggling them and learning. And that's the whole, this whole conversation is learning how to move to the healthy six to have the discernment to find a few good friends. Cause like you said, yeah, well one kudos. Honestly, that you got help from a therapist and the spiritual director, because a lot of threes, they won't go there. And I would say for a lot of threes are listening. Start with a coach. Yeah. They're not a therapist. They're not going to go and unpack some of the wounds and the tragedies, but at least you're, you're having someone enter your vulnerable space. Yes. As a coach. And it feels safer for the three to start there. And then I would definitely say to unpack more to the, a therapist can help you get to that authentic part of who you are. They're the ones that are going to let you know, Hey, I need you to free fall. And I've got a mattress down here. I got a mattress. You know, it's still not going to be fun, but I'm here. And so I just really want to say, gosh, thank you so much for sharing. Really the vulnerable spots of who you are and that you're looking for even still direction of growth.

Alison 54:28

The one other thought I have that could be helpful to folks that I've noticed is with a couple of safe people, what I'll notice is time is helpful in the sense that if we're together over, I have two childhood friends and my sister will get together and everybody shares and I listen and listen and I'm very present and there's something about the safety of going last. Yeah. That after everybody else has, and I've done that, I'll be able to say, yes, this is, and, and that's sort of honored in that space. That was, that's just another thing I'm learning that I don't want to, I won't be the first person, but if I'm in a group, that's where it's really where that vulnerability is being honored. And I watch it and I see that it's being honored, then I could, you know, kind of.

Beth 55:17

Yeah. You can, you can tell, like, is this safe or not safe? And what's funny is I would say as a nine, it's a little bit different. What you said, I'm like, Oh, that's so, that makes so much sense because the three is like trying to gauge the atmosphere, the people, the group, the, the dynamics that are going on, like what's successful here. And if they're being open, open and vulnerable that, Hey, you know, I have my own issues and scars and stuff like, Oh. This can be a safe place for me to be authentic. So that's really, but for me as a nine, what usually happens is I have a sign on my head somewhere. I don't even know that it was put there, but it says, please dump everything onto me. I will listen without judgment. I will receive you as you are. And so people feel super safe with me. But what's interesting and most lines, they might chime in, like they might email us and say this, this is so true. But for most nines is they never sense. Or feel or hear the other person asking for the nine to, to, to share their life vulnerably. So we don't feel that people really want to know us, or if we start talking, they'll like, Oh yeah. And they'll like go on to a different tangent and cut us off. So we, we are like, Oh, they really don't want to hear us. They don't give us the space that we give them to just say all they need to say. And so we think, Oh, they don't want me to really share. They don't really, my presence doesn't really matter. My story doesn't really matter. So for people to say, I'm interested in you, share what you want and give that, that ultimate space for the nine and to look actually interested, not like distance or something. That's what a nine does or a nine needs. So it's interesting. Cause all nine types are going to struggle with vulnerability. Right. They're going to struggle in different ways. And that's why the Enogram is so fascinating, because if you have a type eight, well, why would they struggle with vulnerability? Well, they, they wonder if you're going to blindside them or betray them or harm, like, how are you going to use this information to harm? So every type is going to have something. And so I think what's so great about you saying that and recognizing it, it, one, it helps you. To find those people that are willing to be vulnerable ahead of you, because you're going to do other things ahead of them that are hard for them in different categories. But in this one category, that's how they can support you.

Alison 57:47

That's so interesting. And I love what you're saying that for you, that actually. Could be a deterrent for the nine, but for the three, it's sort of like they're setting the norm of where people who do this, where people who don't shame each other, where people who, where this is, which then allows me that that's, that's so interesting. I love what you're saying to, to look for that then. Yeah, because I've noticed that this last year, I'm like, Oh, if, if, if, if I'm in a group where I trust the people and they're kind of doing this. Okay. I'll do it a little bit. You know, this is, um, so that's super helpful.

Beth 58:19

Well, thank you so much. I mean, this has been such a fun conversation. I mean, you and I could go on and on forever. And Hey, who knows? Maybe they're out there going, yeah, please go on. Well, we gotta, we gotta wrap it up. We've got work to do people. The three of the nine, like we got to get after it. Um, well, thank you guys, or thank you, Alison, for, you know, just being here, sharing, telling us about your journey. Also just the vulnerability of, you know what, sometimes I extend myself way too much, um, in good ways, but in ways sometimes I don't even recognize and how do I ask for help? Um, but what's so great about all of this is the work you do equips us in this very manner. Yeah. And I think that's what's so remarkable about what God does with our gifts and talents is that it's the overflow of what we're already learning and still learning, wouldn't you say? Exactly.

Alison 59:14

A hundred percent. It's the things that I think about, the things I write about, the things I talk about are things I'm wrestling with, you know what I mean? It's not always the things that I kind of, Oh, I figured that out. Let me help you. It's yeah, I, I, I'm with you. And because I've thought a lot about this, I can sort of put some language to it. Does it mean, I love what you said at the beginning. Does it mean that I. Have it all figured out in my own life, you know, um, so much of growth is awareness too. The more I grow, the more I become aware, like I said, for me, even to be aware of, Oh, This is what's happening right now and, and be honest with myself is a huge win. I'm thrilled. You know, I'm like, wow, you know, Lord, we're, we're, we're making progress here. So, um, yeah, I love, I love what you said. We're all wounded healers in that way. Right.

Beth 1:00:03

Exactly. Um, I think, uh, Dan Allender has a book walking with a limp, you know, and it's, it's true for leading, leading with a limp. I love that. You know, it's true. Like we. Um, you know, I'm the first one to say, Hey, yeah, I might put some really, you know, great thoughts together, but I'm, it literally is an overflow of the work I'm currently doing. And I know that's true for you. Yeah. So with that, I would love for you to tell people again, you know, the books that you have, the podcast, where people can find you, what you offer, um, because I know a lot of people are going to really resonate with what you're saying. They want to connect, um, in, you know, different forms of what you have going on. So share with us what you've got going on. Yeah.

Alison 1:00:42

Thank you. I have a podcast called the best of you podcast where I talk about kind of just, I call it kind of psych one Oh one where we just go through, uh, basics of becoming a whole person with a faith integration piece. Um, and then you can find my books, drallisoncook. com, the best of you and boundaries for your soul anywhere books are sold. And I have an email that I send out every Thursday. You can also sign up for that on my website. So. Oh, that's so

Beth 1:01:08

great. So yeah. So Dr. Allison cook and with one L uh, com, uh, you guys can find her. So, Hey, thank you so much. Of course, I will probably get off of this and box you like, Hey, we'll just talk away, which is such an honor and a privilege to, um, have you as a friend of mine. So thank you you. See you next week. See you next week in Nashville. Okay. Thanks, Allison. Okay. So I'm going to take a brief moment to then now talk about what I was thinking behind the scenes when talking with Allison, kind of some of the coaching insights. So one, Allison's done a lot of inner work as a type three, which is remarkable. And even so what you can hear is, The pain, the struggle of feeling the need to always shape shift around the community that she's in and fear that they may think less of her. And so every time I was hearing, you know, her have a breakthrough, I wanted to pause in and celebrate, but also hear how she got there, because I think it's important for us to realize. In the moment that we have that aha moment into sit in it for a little bit, because we can just bypass it pretty quickly and not see the win that it is. So I wanted to draw that out for her and have her really talk about it to then kind of aim in that direction and be more mindful of it the next time. But I also wanted to highlight, you know, the different things that six is experience and how we can navigate that for her as a three. She's not going to be a three. I mean, she's not going to be a six, right? She is a three, but how are the parts of six going to be beneficial for her? And I think if you remember that one part in the interview where she's like, Oh, that is so helpful. Like that makes so much sense. And. I, I could do that. That would actually mean a lot to me. That would mean a lot to my heart. And I was like, wow, here's a three that is saying, setting up a small group of people can, a community, um, that can, I can be vulnerable with, I can be transparent with, I can go to the hard places with, because I know they're safe because I vetted them because I've taken that time. That feels safe to me. That feels good. And that was remarkable to hear that from a three, because that was a real aha moment for Alison. And so I wanted to unpack that with her as well, because it's so easy for the three to quickly move past that and go back into the normal, typical strategies. And so for her to pause and to really reflect on what that means for her and why that would feel so safe. She can hopefully then take that. The next step further. And for us to unpack that down the road. So when working with people, we want to really help them to sit in those aha moments and to not bypass them too quickly. So hopefully when you use the intergram with someone else that you can take that insight. Um, for yourself as well, because like when we have our own aha moments, it's really good for us to also sit in it and to unpack it a little bit further, uh, stretch ourselves, you know, kind of like when we're doing exercises and stretches, we want to continue to stretch ourselves, not in a painful way, not in condemning way, but in a way that actually makes progress. Well, thank you guys so much for joining Allison and I today. I hope that it has been a blessing to you. Um, I know for me just to talk with her and unpack. You know what it's like as a three to be vulnerable and to get help and to ask for help. Like, why is that such a struggle? Um, so I hope today was really enriching for you. And I, one thing is to see how Enneagram coaching really takes you that next step. Right? So, um, we can read a lot of books or listen to podcasts, or we can, you know, watch YouTube videos and all of that's really helpful, but how do we implement it in our everyday life? That is tailored. For us, for our type, right? Or our circumstance. And that's where a certified Enneagram coach can be really beneficial for you. So if you're out there and you're like, man, that is really helpful and I feel stuck or I need clarity in something, then go find one of our certified coaches that are going to be an excellent fit for you. Um, that's at my Enneagram coach. com and. You can find lots of different coaches you can find specifically for your type, or maybe they're in your region, or there's lots of ways to filter out and to find the one that fits you the best, but you might be out there going, wow, I would love to sit across from someone and to share the Enneagram in such a way that really brings them that clarity, that understanding and moves the needle in their life for real transformation. If that's for you, you. Then our become an Enneagram coach course might be the right next step for you. And to kind of get a sneak peek of what that course is like, we have a free mini course, um, at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course, and it's going to really help you to unpack what that training is like, but it's also going to give you key insights of what you can do and how you can use the Enneagram right now in another person's life. Well, I hope today's interview with Alison was just as meaningful and impactful for you as it was for me. I really enjoyed it. Um, join us next week as we will be with another special guest and, um, unpack their story and hear more about their type and see, you know, where our conversation leads and helping them, uh, get clarity and understanding. But always remember the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It's the gospel that transforms us. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. I'll see you next time.