Beth 1:12

So our guest today, Laurie Palau, she says life is hard, but organization shouldn't be. And that is so true, right? Organization can be so hard and why does it have to be? But I want you to listen to this podcast because one, she is an Enneagram expert while helping people to declutter and get organized. But we jump into her own story and unpacking why she gets activated and triggered in very specific ways that takers from zero to a hundred as a lot of eights experience, and she wanted to know how she can understand it and navigate it better. So stay tuned and listen, what unfolds. Hey everyone. Welcome back to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach, and here we desire to help you for a real growth, lasting change in using the Enneagram, whether it's in your personal life or your relationships, but we're also deeply committed to raising up the next generation of amazing Enneagram coaches. Now on the podcast, we're blending enlightening conversations with our guests and a coaching conversation that demonstrates to you the transformative power of Enneagram coaching. Plus stay tuned to the very end, because I'm going to pull back the curtain and reveal to you some of the things that I was thinking along the way and why I was coaching, um, in a particular way or what I was thinking about. So stay tuned. Bye. For that. And if you're enjoying the content and the podcast, please like subscribed and post a review. So others can find this as well. Now, if you're passionate about guiding others with the tool of the Enneagram, then our become an Enneagram coach training would be perfect for you. So get a taste with our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. But if you're just looking for personal growth, whether, um, relationally, or professionally. Get a certified Enneagram coach at my Enneagram coach. com. And there we have a plethora of amazing trained and certified Enneagram coaches. Now with that, I want to dive into today's episode and introduce you to a very special guest, Lori Palau. Now, Lori is the author of hot mess, a practical guide to getting organized. She also hosts the popular weekly podcast, this organized life that's already had 3 million downloads and the founder of simply be organized a lifestyle company, helping people to live simply and work smarter. Now she has been publicized in real simple, better homes and gardens and the New York times. She teaches, she writes, and she's actually helping others with clutter and the Enneagram, which I can't wait to learn more about. She also helps women who are in entrepreneurship. Uh, so today, I'm really excited just to kind of dive into what she's got going on. What is she passionate about? Um, and, Also just hearing this whole Enneagram declutter thing, because I don't know about you, but I love living simply without clutter and all the things going on. And I'm a nine. So I'm like, yeah, of course I want that because I want to be stress free. Well, Lori lives with her husband and two grown ish daughters in New Hope, Pennsylvania.

Meet Lauri

Beth 4:45

So Lori, I want to welcome you to this episode. Thank you so much for joining me

Laurie 4:49

today. Oh, thank you. It's such a pleasure to be

Beth 4:52

here. Yeah. Well, this is going to be super fun because I really want to hear more about, um, What do you do with the Enneagram and organization? So helping people to declutter, to organize, what does that even look like? Tell us more about that specifically.

Laurie 5:11

Okay. So I'll, I'll give the kind of the, the overarching overview and just give you a little backstory. So yeah. Um, I've always been very fascinated with. personality assessments and typologies. In my previous career, before I started this business, I was an executive recruiter for 15 years. So I sent hire Briggs and all the different ones that I would apply to find out kind of what motivated people for. In my case, it was job change. And I always loved that personal relationship to say like, well, what, what prompted you to make that decision or that choice? And then fast forward, I started my business, um, as a professional organizer and it's kind of grown and evolved. And, um, I was introduced to the Enneagram back in probably like 2017. And at the time I was just fascinated to learn a little bit more about it. And as I begun. began going down the kind of the Enneagram rabbit hole and learning more, I started to find it very interesting of what really attracted me to it, I should say, was the motivation piece. Because I look at clutter in my life when I'm working with clients as the symptom, not the root cause. So what's going on behind it, what's driving this decision to either have, have clutter around you, or be overscheduled with what I call calendar clutter, or why are some people Um, you know, drawn with like more emotional clutter and, you know, guilt and all that. Um, and so that kind of behind the scenes was how I always approached working with clients. And so when I was introduced to the Enneagram, I thought it was a wonderful compliment just because again, it talks so much about the why, right. And as I started like going down and studying. I started going, wow, I really felt like I had this light bulb moment of going, I could see some parallels again. It's not prescriptive, but I could start to see some parallels of like, I wonder if, and almost hypothesizing, I wonder if certain types are prone to certain types of clutter or if certain types avoid clutter because of this. So I actually was at a bootcamp. With Suzanne Stabile. Yeah. And I went up to her and I said, is there any work out there that I can find on like organization and clutter and the Enneagram? Like I was, because I had been just, you know, reading up, like reading about the Enneagram and everything I could find was about Enneagram and relationships, Enneagram in the workplace, Enneagram in parenting, all these great. applications, but nothing that was, I was looking for something that could, I could tie in with the work that I do. Right. And she's like, I don't really know anything about it. And I was like, well, that seems like an opportunity to go down the You know, exploration. So that's something we have a five year rabbit hole for, uh, focus groups, research, studying all of the things to really, really learn about the Enneagram and make some connection points to add tools in your toolkit for people to start to apply specific strategies. That they could, that would align so people don't have to wait and knuckle clutter is such a stressful thing organization is such a stressful thing, whether you're talking about more the executive function of productivity and time management, or you're talking about like the practical physical stuff. And so I've really taken. the Enneagram framework, looking at a lot with specifically triad stances, orientation to time and looking at really how we can leverage our intelligence centers and within the nuances of the nine core types. Um, Specifically without going super deep into try types and subtypes and all the other things, but really looking at my core types, um, and saying, this is where my natural go to is, how can I be more intentional in the areas where I might be a little bit Weaker, or I might have some more blot spots.

Beth 9:23

Yeah. So, okay. So one of my favorite things when talking about the Enneagram and what it is, is to give an example with, um, a clean house, pretending like everyone in the audience loves a clean house. Now, not everybody does and not everybody cares, but we're just painting the picture that everybody in the audience loves a clean house and how. Each type wants a perfectly clean home for different reasons. And so I walk through the week, we call it the wheel, you know, walking through the symbol of all nine types and why each type would want it differently. Of course. And everyone laughs, especially when you get to their type. They're like, Oh my gosh, that's like so much me, but it's helpful because it paints why motivations are so important because people are trained or naturally see the outward behaviors of someone. And they think they understand why they did it, you know, like, well, they would do it because of me as a nine. I want an decluttered, organized, clean home so I can chill and relax. That's it, people. That's what I'm, why I'm doing it. I just want to chill and relax. I don't want like it to feel like the dishes or the clutter are basically tapping me on the shoulder con or nonstop saying, you got something to do. You got something to do. You got something to do as a nine. I'm like, I just want to chill and relax or do what I want to do. And so it's just interesting how each of us have our own motivations and ways of seeing it. And so can you kind of give us maybe just real quick, because then we're going to jump into the The reason why you are here today and why we're going to talk, but give me an example of how this has been really beneficial, maybe for one of your clients, particularly like where you were able to unpack their motivation, what's going on, why they were struggling, how they got over the hurdle of clutter and disorganization.

Laurie 11:16

Um, absolutely. And I want to, um, just. Go back to your example. My reason. I mean, I have obviously a multitude of reasons, but my initial reason for wanting a. organized house is the ease of retrieval. I value time too much. And I, one of my biggest pain points is wasting time looking for things. So I, so for me as an Enneagram eight, that is my, if I had to hierarchy the leading reason for an organism, that would be it. So,

Beth 11:49

yeah. And I love it because AIDS are on the go all the time. They're quick. They're efficient. Now, a lot of people might be thinking, well, that's a three. Well, yeah, threes are two. They would have different motivations behind why they were doing it. But the eight it's like, no, we are going to get from point a to point B as fast as possible. I call AIDS, um, big diesel snow plows. Okay. We've got a mission. I'm going to plow this path. And you know, the healthier they are, they see the people in front and like, Hey, get behind me. I got you. Let's go. You know, they're not going to waste time. Like, you know, They're not just gonna be like, like a nine, like on the service road, having like, you know, a Sunday drive. Like, it's like, no, we have a task. Let's go for it. You know, they're passionate to get it done. So I love that painting that picture of, yeah, I want to be organized because I don't want the disorganization to hold me back. I don't want the, the clutter to control me. I'm going to control the clutter. Does that feel accurate?

Laurie 12:42

Um, yeah, I think that is more of a one. Personally, I think that, I think that definition of, I don't want the, I think that control piece. Um, I think it's, I do think it's more of like, I don't want the clutter to stand in my way of what I need to do. Yeah. So just,

Beth 12:57

I'm going to plow over it.

Laurie 12:59

I'm going to plow through it. I think I'm going to plow through it. But to give you an, so, so to give a practical example of where I've seen this really play out. And it's actually, I started using this. It just, the,

How the Enneagram Helped Laurie

Laurie 13:12

the Enneagram gave me language. Let me just go back and say that. So I have been doing a lot of what the way I was practicing, the way I was teaching, the way I was coaching people and working with clients, I was doing it. Now, the Enneagram gave me a deeper, more rich knowledge, but what it gave me above all else was it gave me. Language to be able to use in ways that I wasn't able to articulate before. So I have a daughter, I have two girls and my younger one is an Enneagram four. Okay. And she's always struggled with emotional clutter. Now she is very sentimental. She's very. Her orientation to time is the past, she's the one that wants, everything has feelings, everything, and as, and I, way before I knew the Enneagram, this was her, and I would say this is like some sort of poetic justice, that I am utilitarian, we don't use it, get it, you know, get rid of it, and she would hem and haw, and everything, a task that would take me 10 minutes, would take her 45, and it would result in yelling, and tears, and everything. All of these things. And what I've come to figure out as a strategy, this is again pre Enneagram, but that I refined it and actually applied it more intentionally with what knowledge of the Enneagram, is that she needs space to process. I'm a quick processor. She has to process things. Very slowly, very intentionally, and with lots of texture. And so, my organization, where I can make a decision like this, she has to, very differently than a six, who's got to weigh all the different odds, she has to bust it in her own terms. So, for me, as a professional organizer, working with her as a daughter, or Somebody, as a client that is struggling with that emotional clutter, I will hold longer space for them to go through that. Does it give them the path of saying, we're not going to get to that finish line? If our goal is we want you to declutter this closet, we're going to go through, but you may have to sit there and tell me about the concert you went to before you get rid of this. Oh yeah. Right. Where somebody else might be like, I'm not wearing it. I'm going to get rid of it. And it's very tactical mechanical. Yeah. In a case of a four. They, they need more space to go through that. That is their process because the goals I want to empower people for this, not to be something that they have to white knuckle, that they have to dread. Oh, it's time for me to declutter. It's time for, I want this to be an organic, habitual thing that they're doing as part of their life routine. And so if I can create, help them create a strategy that's going to lean into who they are, then. That's gonna, that's gonna be more sustainable than me forcing them to be like, come on, make a decision. Are you going to wear it or not? Right. So, right.

Beth 16:14

And was that, I'm just curious, um, was that your typical mode of operation before kind of understanding the Enneagram? Yeah. Like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that's what's so beautiful about the Enneagram, right? Like, it really opens to our eyes that there are nine ways. To decluttering. There's nine ways to whatever, like we see the world so differently. And if we can come alongside each person and understand their perspective, how much more we can help them, which is why we coach people that aren't just Enneagram coaches. They're using it like you right in the profession they're at, because they understand that they can tailor. Their help or customize their help, whether they're an HR director, manager, boss, pastor, whoever, they can tailor their message right for the people that they're working with. I'm sorry, you

Laurie 17:07

were going to say, no, no, I was going to say, yeah, I've always kind of approached it from that perspective of, I knew there was never a one size fits all approach. I just don't describe to that. And, but again, for me it added depth. So I would say, okay, they're one of the biggest, uh, pitfalls. I call them the five clutter pitfalls. And one of the biggest ones is procrastination. And I would identify that, but what the Enneagram taught me was, well, there's nine different reasons why people could procrastinate. And the reason, so we still, the end of the day, you're still procrastinating, but a nine is procrastinating for a very different reason than Six is procrastinating, then a one is procrastinating. And so again, my strategy, so I was in the ballpark, but I was able to really like pitch it right down the middle once I learned the Enneagram because then I was able to apply specific language that would resonate with people that have that particular core fear or motivation.

Beth 18:15

Exactly. And that's why I love to use the word tailor or customize, because that's what you're doing. You know, in your field, you're tailoring, you're customizing the help that you can offer the specialization you have for the person that's right in front of you. And I think that is so needed and so powerful for any profession. Um, and so getting to know the Enneagram on a much deeper level is so beneficial. So I'm so, um, really just. Thankful and proud of the ongoing work that you've done to educate yourself and to integrate it right into the field that you have. Cause it's not easy. It takes time, but the leverage that you have now is so much more powerful and beneficial for each of your clients. Um, and I'm sure it's exhilarating, uh, to watch. How you can benefit each client in a whole new and pretty much dramatic way. And that's how I always tell people, I go, I have the best job in the world. Like I literally get to watch people transform right before my eyes, uh, uniquely and specifically for their story and their type. And I can imagine that's what you're doing because the other thing I would just want to also point out. is, um, being a type eight, how much I'm also hearing the integration of nine that try.

Laurie 19:35

Thank you. If you hear that, it's an ongoing practice. I love nines. You guys are my favorites.

Beth 19:42

Oh, well, thank you. Um, no, but just because the eight in and of itself is like, it's black and white. This is the way, this is where we're going. Question me, just follow like I got you. But what you've learned is. No, wait, these people are different. They're individuals. And I want to honor who they are in the lane they are in. And I'm going to come alongside them with who they are and who they've been created to be and guide them specifically and honor them specifically. And so it means that the people that you're serving feel heard, they feel attuned to, um, and they feel, I'm sure, because I would feel this way valued instead of trying to. Get them to change into something that they're actually not, and they're not going to be. So it's a very nine ish quality. And I just think that's really, and I'm not saying, Oh, that's awesome. You should become like a nine. I'm just saying you're, you're utilizing an aspect, a part of you, the wing in such a beautiful way. And, but yet staying true to yourself, like, Hey, we're going to do this. Let's go. Um, so anyway, congratulations. And I mean, it just sounds so, so intriguing. So you had, uh, said that as an eight, um, that abandonment is a real underlying theme for you in your personal life, specifically with the family. And.

Recognizing the Clutter

Beth 21:09

That you would like to kind of work and kind of dig and pull apart, understanding how to better self regulate yourself when you get triggered and activated. And instead of going from maybe zero to a hundred with anger or rage, how you can better love, um, how you can better serve, how you can better self regulate with better strategies and moving forward. So. Can you unpack that just a little bit more? Help, help me. Yeah. And everyone else understand. And then maybe put it with an example so that we can really kind of understand, um, you know, what you're wanting or where you're

Laurie 21:43

wanting to go. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'm going to say two things. First of all, this is like the first time I've ever been in like an, any gram therapy session. So I'm a little like, I don't want to say I'm nervous cause I'm not nervous, but this is definitely like, this is. It's exciting, but it's a little like,

Beth 21:59

um, your seven's like, this is going to be really fun. And then the, the eight and the seven are like, but this is really vulnerable and is it going to be painful? Like, you know, so, so thank you for

Laurie 22:11

doing that. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, And I've been in therapy for many years. So I was, uh, this is nothing, this is something that I've been working on. And I would like to say I've certainly made progress, but underlying it's always, it's, it's always there. Right. It's just like I've developed strategies, but you can always improve and do better. I'll never forget. I was going, um, I was at a therapy session and I live in this beautiful little river town and my therapist and I, we sometimes would do like walk and talks on the canal. And so it was great. We were like getting our steps and we were going for a walk and I was complaining or ranting about my family of origin, right? My parents, my sister, where the way I grew up and she was like, well, how does that make you feel? This is before any, any Graham knowledge, right? This is going back. She's like, how's it make you feel? Or like, how'd you feel about that? I go, I don't feel anything. I was like, I didn't feel like I legitimately was like feelings. Like I wasn't even talking about, she's like, Oh, you feel, and I was like, what? And she goes, You, your feeling is rage, anger. Like, cause she could, and I was like, Oh, I guess I never thought about that. I always like likened feelings to like, or she was like, you know, emotion. I would think of sadness and crying and like, I was not considering anger and rage with. in that spectrum. And but then I was like, Oh, I guess you are correct about that. And that was really the first time that I actually like kind of articulated it like that. Like, Oh yeah, I do have an emotion about this situation. It's just not, I'm not gonna sit there and cry about it. I'm just gonna get angry. You need a test. Um, and so for me, um, Like a lot of people, I had, I mean, I didn't have a horrible childhood. I had like a nice childhood, but there was, there was trauma. There was abuse and stuff. And from a very early age, you know, I had a mom that like kind of buried her head and turned the other way. And my, you know, whatever, I'm not, my parents are deceased and I, I loved them and they did the best they could with the tools they had. But I felt like for me, I had to figure it out on my own. Like, you know what? No, one's going to take care of you. You got to take care of yourself. It was like me and Jesus. That was it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, okay. And I got me, but on the rest of the people on, you know, in my circle that are supposed to be there for you probably weren't. So I grew up. And again, not like, Oh, poor Lori, but you know, that's the narrative. And I, I can't speak for other eights, but I feel like that is probably to some extent a through line with some of us and fast forward, I get married and I have kids and, you know, your unresolved stuff shows up. And yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so for me, I, Was like, if, if things didn't go the way that I want. And I would try to exhibit my own definition of patience, I might go flying off the handle and be, you know, and it would my friend, my friends, my kids might get friendly fire. I could get be upset with my husband for something and they would be the byproduct of that, you know? And again. It wasn't like a house of horrors, but you know, like looking back now going, wow, like I was a lot like I was like, first of all, I'm a lot anyway, cause I'm an eight and I'm a lot. Um, and I'm big in the room and my kids are now like, mom, you were like, like scary. Like we, you know, you're, and I was like, I didn't mean to be scary. I was just like passionate and I'm very, like you said, black and white. And like, I. indicated I have a four daughter and my other daughter's a nine. Now, again, we grew up in a house where we didn't know the Enneagram. So that was not a tool that we were, that was used. I wish I did have that. And my husband's a three. So you've got two aggressive parents. I was

Beth 26:31

going to say, you guys are getting

Laurie 26:32

things done. You've got two aggressive parents with two withdrawing stance kids. Like My poor children were like in a vortex of, you know, being barreled over between the both of us. And it, again, wasn't necessarily intentional that way, but whether intentional or not, I think that's just, that was probably their reality. I don't want to speak for them. But, you know, so again, I continue to do the work to not get, you know, Fly off that handle. Um, but it's still underlying there. And if you ask a kind of about the abandonment thing is if things there are certain times in situations with people that are close to me, because as you know, eights don't, they, we have a very small inner circle. I know a lot of people. I live in a small town and I'm friendly. I run a charity, but like, I know a lot of people, but my inner circle is really small. And so if I feel betrayed. By somebody or let down by somebody that is in that inner circle. My immediate knee jerk is. They didn't show up for me and it's abandonment and I feel like it's rooted in, you know, if you want to peel back the layers as opposed to being like, it's really not, it's not that deep as my nine would say, but I internalize that very, very deeply. And I guess I kind of make it about me. You know what I mean? Is feeling like abandoned. And so I would love to be able to separate that and be a little bit more objective. That's a lot that I just throw at you.

Beth 28:17

Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, it 100 percent makes app. I mean, it is. Yeah, it makes sense. Um, I think, you know, one thing I like, do you have maybe a story or specific example? And I was gonna even say You know, maybe not just depending on, cause I mean, it's your inner circle. So maybe we should hold off on the example because it's like, okay, there's only a few of them. So maybe we throw

Laurie 28:45

anybody under the bus,

Beth 28:46

but

Block Party Story

Beth 28:48

so, um, so what usually for you happens when Um, what is the precursor, maybe like an example of a precursor, like, Hey, you know, we're grocery shopping or whatever. Um, and then I noticed something and this is what happens in my body. Can you kind of explain those kinds of steps?

Laurie 29:12

So, okay. Hopefully I'm answering your question because I'm not trying to like skate around. I'm just trying to think about the best way to answer it. So what somebody will say something and I'm trying to think of a specific example that I can use that is Um, and I was, I'm always, and it's usually over something that probably at the end of the day, isn't that big of a deal. Like if the house could be burning down and I'm in control and I'm, I've got it. But if it's something like really benign, I will, Oh, I have a perfect example. I have an example. Okay. Okay. So we were hosting a block party. Uh huh. I was hosting a Bach party. Right? Like I was the point person. Yeah. I host a lot of events. That's my thing. Like I'm good at that. My brother in law and sister in law came out, I invited them for the block party. So they came, I'm setting up folding tables with, um, plastic tablecloths on them. My brother in law comes up and starts telling me how to put on a tablecloth and I'm like, I got this. Right. And my brother in law is kind of like a little bit of a needler, like I love him, but he's like a little bit and he doesn't know when to stop and he's like one of those kind of, you know, poke the bear. And I was like, I, I've got this like really, and I was already like, it was like the hour before everything. So, you know, if you've ever planned any event that last crunch tower, you're trying to like get everything done. And the last thing I needed was something chirping in my ear about how to do something as elementary as put that on that I could do in my sleep and like, whatever, but he kept going. And for whatever reason, I was like, It, it triggered me and I just flipped out, like flipped, like instead of just walking away, instead of going, okay, you, why don't you do it? And like laughing about it because, or I got angry and triggered and like literally had a temper tantrum, turned to my husband and said, I hate your family, went up to my office and went upstairs and put myself in a timeout. I can completely accept that that was a irrational response. And then I came down after texting my friends. I literally just had a meltdown over a tablecloth. It was again benign, but I just went. Like I was already again tense, but this is should not have set me off. Yeah, and yet it did I'm not blaming my eatness or anything like that, but that response was not healthy.

Beth 32:06

Well, and I think You know, yes, cuz I think a lot of people out there like I don't like the endogram because people like, you know, well hide behind their type, you know like and Yes. And our type plays a huge role. And

Laurie 32:22

why, why? Why? It's context.

Beth 32:23

It's context. Yes, exactly. And, and it gives us a framework of what's going on and an understanding. So I talk about the Enneagram being kind of like, uh, internal g p s. So your current location is your main Enneagram type, and you are trying to get to the healthiest destination of your type. So you, you need to know that. You need to know what your type is and where you're trying to head What, what does a healthy eight look like? What does it not look like? You have to understand those things. And then we, I tell people use the Enneagram also like a rumble strip on the highway, that thing on the side of the road that when you aren't paying attention, you're texting, you knows what you're doing. You're veering off course and it alerts you, Hey, if you keep going in this direction, you're going to crash like this, isn't going to be, this isn't going to end up well. And so the Enneagram alerts us that we are headed in that trajectory. Now, the thing is, is that most of the time people are heading in that direction and once they kind of get there, we've ignored that warning sign so much that we don't even pay attention to it. And we're like, well, no, but this is the way I do it. Like this is how it's done, but we don't understand the path that we're actually heading and the end result. We really think that we can come out the other side. In a better way.

Using the Enneagram to Pause and Notice

Beth 33:45

And so the Enneagram though, helps us to go, wait a second. No, that's not true because when I do this, this will happen. And so let's kind of unpack that for just a second. So we're, we're at the party. You are stressed out. Now you're stressed out, might be very different than any of the other nine, eight types, right? Because I would be stressed out for different reasons. The three would be stressed out, but you're putting on stress. It's the last hour you're putting down these tablecloths and a close family member. So there you go. Right. Family member that alone is an activator is literally telling the eight what to do. Like, like when you said that, I was like, that alone is a no, no. Then to keep going, to keep prodding, to keep pushing, like you said, poking the bear only heightens things. So let's take a step back and let's look at this situation as if you're driving on the highway. When do you think you Whether you were aware of it or not, like kind of like, okay, this is what's going on. Cause you probably weren't. When did the rumble strip first start happening? Like if you could go back in time and you could tell yourself, Lori, this is it. It's starting. You can hear the rumble. It's a little bit. It was probably

Laurie 35:10

the second time after I first said to him, I got this and he continued to go. It was after the second time, because To me, it's like, I'm capable of doing this. So like, I understand, cause listen, I have the tendency to oftentimes interject my opinion when it is not warranted. Right. And I, so like, I'm all about like having grace for somebody, but as soon as I was like, No, I got it, like I've done this and he continued to re correct what I was doing. That is when I started to, yeah,

Beth 35:45

and, and for the eight going from driving on the lane correctly in the middle of the lane to literally going into the ditch is very quick. Right. So this is actually going to be even more important.

Laurie 36:00

That's so true. No, it's,

Beth 36:03

it's not that the aid is worse than other types, but that does not what it means. It just, you as AIDS, there is a gut hit of visceral reaction that happens instantaneously. I tell people like, so, you know, you and I are in the gut center. Um, and I talk about it being like. A two liter Coke. Well, the nine, we have our two liter Coke. And I, I tighten that lid as best I can, but life and circumstances are shaking me up inside. And I'm like, how can I get away? Because this thing's going to explode. And I don't want it to like harm anyone. Right. Cause I just want peace and harmony. So I'm trying to get away. The one has the lid half on half off. So it's kind of spewing like sideways, you know, where it's like not really full force, but it's definitely like, Ooh, what's you know, that judgment coldness and criticism, the eight. Is like the two liter Coke with the lid off and people are throwing Mentos in and it's just instantaneously explosion, right? The combustion. Yeah. And so I want people that are listening to understand that it's not that you're sitting there going, you know what? I can really just hold this in and it's perfectly fine. The awareness. of the Mentos flying in and what needs to happen in such a quick timeframe, the awareness that you're going to have to have, um, to whatever you want to call it, edit yourself back, correct the course. Um, all of those things have to happen so quickly because it is a visceral reaction in the eighth. It's also so internally. So tell me what does your body feel like when you got to that moment when he kept Pushing and prodding you. What does it physically feel like? Oh, I start

Laurie 37:45

to shake My heart my heart races. I it's like I can't I got I have tunnel vision like it is Rage and I immediately go to what do you think? I'm not capable of doing this and I remember, you know I remember like this is Bread crumbed back. Like if my husband would be like, why don't you do this with the kids? And like, they're his kids too. He could say, but I would be like, what do you think? I'm not good at my job. You know, what do you think? I'm not a good mother. Like it, it, it becomes a, I take it as a personal attack when it's respect gas, I wouldn't, I mean, maybe it is. I just haven't consciously used it. I just feel like it's more of like, do you feel like I'm incapable? I'm inept. Yeah. And. I don't, that's not, and here's the thing, I know there's plenty of things I'm not good at. Right. So like, there's plenty of things that are not in my lane, but if you criticize something that's like in my lane, then I'm like, what? Because that's, you know, that I take that as a personal

Beth 38:51

attack. Yeah. Okay. So that's actually really good. Is it? Yeah. The reason is, okay, so we've kind of unpacked a little bit here. So we're on the highway, we're starting to hit the rumble strip, but there's going to be different. Rumble strips, meaning like the different sounds, how loud they are, you know, some are just kind of like very, very low key. So this one was really loud because, and, and, and a really big deal, like the, the cliff was, was much bigger than just like going off the road. And it's just like all one level, you know? So. Because he was attacking, so to speak, so it's correct. Correct. My language of it doesn't feel but attacking your, um, capabilities, your knowledge, your, um, your gifting, your skill sets, um, and really disrespecting what you do really well. I mean, this is your event. He, I'm sure he knows that you do these things often because he's a brother in law, which is probably why It was more poking the bear than just if it was Susie Q down the street who was coming in and chiming in. Yeah. It's like, you know I can do this. I do this all the time. Why? And so it's an assault really on your integrity. Mm hmm. Um, and it didn't stop. So what I hear from aides usually is that because we're in the gut center, you and I and the ones, for the aides, it's like there's a fire in the belly. And it got ignited like kerosene literally was poured onto it, and it has to be expelled quickly. Is that what it feels like for you? Yes,

Laurie 40:29

I think that's pretty

Beth 40:30

accurate. Um, and so, and so it's kind of like that mento example as well. And so if that's actually true. And it's not good or helpful. We have to think through ways to one become quickly aware to what's going on to maybe even predict. You can't predict everything. I mean, why would he come up and correct you on. Sure. Tablecloth, right? Like you can't. But I think understanding the rumble strip mentality and that you're going to have to be much more attuned to what's going on and self regulate and be self aware much more quickly or else the fire in the belly is going to feel the need to expel. And really, we know that the consequences could be vast, right? Because eights are quick minded. They can be quick tongued. They're, you know, sorry, but I'm not sorry. I'm just blonde. But yet you're sorry too, because these relationships, the ones that are actually activating you the most are your, your, your inner circle at your sweet spot. So if we take all of that, let's. Let's go back. And because with coaching, we're real. It's not me telling you what you needed to have done, because that's not my life. That's not my lane. That's not my circumstances. So let's go back. You're putting the tablecloth on the brother in law comes up. He says it once and you're thinking. Hey, I've said my piece, move on, buddy. And he didn't. Therefore the rumble strip is, is going off or the, you can feel the Mentos being tossed in.

Coaching Yourself

Beth 42:14

What could you tell yourself now? How could you coach

Laurie 42:18

yourself? Oh, like if I, if this situation, if I, if I could do, get a redo. Yeah. I

Beth 42:22

was like, how would you coach yourself now? Yeah.

Laurie 42:25

I would have, um, I would have just self and I would have said, okay, you take it. And I would have walked away. I would have removed myself from the situation. Okay. That's what

Beth 42:33

I would've done, and which I think is one

Laurie 42:38

option. Okay. Is that not the right option,

Beth 42:41

No. Well, that's not, that is a good option, but I think we have to peel it back even more because it's still happened. Like, yes. What you, the um, so there's nothing, there's no wrong or bad here, It's explore, it's exploring. Yeah. I'm, I'm more concerned. More about your heart, your well being, and though you were able to hand off the situation to him, that doesn't mean that you're, the feeling of being disrespected, dishonored. Um, not seen for the skills that you have. Those are still there. Like you're still going to be hurt. You're still going to feel abandoned. I think is the word that you use. That's what, that's what lands on you. And I think why that's important to recognize is that, that. It doesn't mean the relationship is mended from how he has harmed you. Now, this is maybe a little H harm, right? This isn't a big H harm, but something happened that ignited so much within you that you, like you said, through a tantrum went upstairs. and literally had to put yourself in a timeout. So something really activated inside your core. I do agree that the first step is to definitely hand off, remove yourself. Don't allow the fire to be expelled or the Mentos to be exploded everywhere. That's awesome. So yes, that is definitely a first step, but it's not the whole solution. It's not the end game. So with that being said, okay, Hey, you handed it off to him. What's next? Like, how do you get from doing a great job? Everything's fine to relationship is broken. You're hurt. You've been harmed in a, in a, in a small fractured way, but it really

Laurie 44:42

seems a bit extreme. I wouldn't say I was harmed, but yes, I understand. Like it's

Beth 44:46

little age, little age, you know, and, and, but I mean, let's. But, okay, I would have to push back. That's fine. Because, yeah, I don't like your date. Let's go for it. Um, I would, I would disagree because of the reaction. What is, when we usually have that kind of a reaction, it actually means something truly mattered to us, something really hurt. Um, otherwise it just. You would have, as an aid, you would have been like, I don't really care what you think, you know, like, right, right, right. So, so there's something in here that is worth really understanding whether it was who said it, who done it, um, what it was exactly about. Maybe it wasn't even the person. Maybe it was the fact that he kept prodding this exact thing. That means a lot to you. There's something packed in here that ignited. A fury and really anger is usually the sub emotion to sadness or sorrow or grief. So what do you think that you are really hurt, sad, grieving over whether it was actually him or it was just an. An umbrella, something that really ignited this,

Laurie 46:13

I, that's, that is the million dollar question, Beth. That's a million dollar question. Uh, I don't have, I don't have the answer. I don't know. I mean,

Beth 46:24

and that's actually, I just wanted to paint the picture for you and the listeners with Enneagram coaching, that this is where we get to sit. We may not find that answer today, tomorrow, but it is the path of understanding because as you're heading down your lane on the highway and your daughters do the exact same thing because as much as we love our grown children or our teenage children or our young children, they know how to hit our buttons. And. The same thing that was ignited with your brother in law could easily be ignited with any of your other members because they mean so much to you as an aid, they mean so much to you. And so I think what's, whether we get to unpack it today or you get to unpack it in the next month or year, whatever it is, when you get to understanding that thing that got ignited. The real source of grief and pain, that's when you're going to fully understand how to navigate the lane that you're in, and you're actually going to see the rumble strip way ahead of time before you even get there, or when you do get there, because sometimes it just surprises us kind of like it did with this incident that you are much better and well equipped because you're like, I know what's happening. Like it's igniting this in me. And this is what's going to be awesome about you as well, because you're so well versed in the Enneagram and what you do for your clients, you're going to be able to bring that nine perspective in and go. You know what? I wonder, I'm curious. Curiosity is amazing. I'm curious as to why my brother in law would even, not just say it, but keep going after it. Like there must be. Well that I

Laurie 48:10

know, because he's just like, he's

Beth 48:11

just a. Well, but maybe so, but

Laurie 48:13

maybe. He likes to stir the pot, you know, so like. He's

Beth 48:17

just, but even that there's something going on within him of why

Laurie 48:20

he's doing it. We need to get him on this

Beth 48:23

show. That's a whole. Yeah. Yeah. That would be like a whole, cause we actually do the whole thing of like the dance and the Enneagram. But, um, and so I think what, what, so what's more important about anything is yes, it's family. It's your small inner circle. That's what's probably going to ignite you bigger than any. Other person out there. I mean, unless, unless someone is attacking your family, which again, it has to do with the family. Um, so I think the biggest thing is to unpack, where are you experiencing sorrow and grief or sadness or loss? Like there's something, and that's the

Laurie 49:00

heart, but see there, right there, that's it. Yeah. Is. Just the even thought of you saying, and I'm not saying it's not true, you're probably, you're likely spot on, but it's the thought of going sadness and grief. Like that's, those are like, that's like kryptonite. Like, I don't want to hear it like that. You know, that is, that's like the, that's like me going, um, I'd like you to confront somebody right now. And I'd like you to, so I'd like you to have a really difficult conversation with somebody that could result in conflict. You know, that is something I

Beth 49:38

would be out of here. Yeah.

Laurie 49:40

Right. To do something. Can you just, just mail it in, just mail it in. Like you're asking me to do something that is so out of my natural comfort zone that it's like almost. I don't want to go there because I don't know what that's going to, what's going to happen.

Beth 49:56

Do you typically lean towards the seven wing in general?

Laurie 50:01

You know, it's funny that you ask that because When I first learned the Enneagram, I was like, I'm an eight with an eight wing, like, I just felt so eight, I didn't really feel, and I could look back and I could see certain things through my life that had sort of seven ish, but I don't really truly identify with a lot of seven, and I want desperately to be a More not. I want to incorporate more nine into my life. Right. So like when you pay me that compliment, I was like, Oh my God, thank you. Because it is such an intentional practice for me to really like lean into that. But I, I don't feel that just. Naturally, I, I lean to either way. I feel like I'm right down the middle.

Beth 50:50

Well, and that, that can be absolutely true.

Laurie 50:54

Okay. I was like, is, I don't know. That's just

Beth 50:57

like, there's some people like my father in law is one of the purest nines out there now. I know he, he has the one wing and he has the eight wing. Like they're there. We just don't see it as much. And so you have the nine wing and you have the seven wing, how much you access them. You know, it varies from person to person and circumstance and situation. And when we're healthy, we're actually accessing both obviously in a healthy way. And then if we're less healthy or unhealthy again, but the reason why I'm saying that is. The, the sorrow and the sadness, as you were talking about your time with your, uh, therapist, I think that that, this all kind of culminates with the, well, like my head, my, in my brain

Laurie 51:47

because sevens don't. In their half range of like happiness and not going

Beth 51:51

to, well, they, their core feet, one of their core fears is being trapped in emotional pain, sadness, right. Um, you know, and obviously missing out on something fun. Um, and

Laurie 52:03

so that's where I think of a seven and I'm not that

Beth 52:05

person. Yeah. Cause you're like, I don't need to have the fun. I just want to get things done. I'm, I'm ready to plow the path. Let's go for it. Right. But, and that's why it's not, you don't become all of a seven, right? But the pain avoidant part. Yes. Right. And then eight just wants what they want. So if. If the aid wants, Hey, I don't want to have to deal with this. This is where we're going. This is where we're heading. And then here I come or your therapist, you know, coach and a therapist saying, Hey, there's more to unpack here that actually sits with sadness and sorrow and grief or something under that umbrella. Um, everything in you. Is saying, I don't want to touch that. I don't want to go there with a 10 foot pole. And that perfectly makes sense, which is why if we were to ever continue coaching sessions, I am not here to say we will unpack it. Like, but, but I would encourage. You to explore first. Why is it so fearful? Why does it feel so uncomfortable? It's like, just like you said, with me, there are so many times that I need to say hard things and hard things that I need to say are like normal everyday conversations for you as an eight, right? Why are they so fearful for me? Why are they so big? Like, you know, even unpacking what's funny because my son does our podcast production and he's looking at buying a house. And so he was, we were all looking at this one house, um, that was sounded amazing. There was lots of like, you know, it was going to be cheaper to do this, that, and the other. I was like, Ooh, this might be actually a good one. And then I realized it's too much. And even just saying to him, Hey, this is out of the price range. You know, I'm really sorry. Like was so hard for me at that little conversation. Cause it's like, I'm going to make someone like sad or upset. And so I paint that picture because what I'm asking you. To do the steps that would help you to actually get from where you get stuck or the rage to a more self regulated place is, is going to be extremely challenging and hard, but I know you can

Laurie 54:19

do it. It's important. It's important work that has to happen.

Beth 54:23

It's absolutely important because without it, what's going to happen is you're going to be on that highway and you're going to hit the rumble strip. And. We all do this. So it's not just for the AIDS, but we take the steering wheel and we're like, Oh, really? And we just ram it right into the ditch because we're so used to doing it that way. Whereas now you have the opportunity to go, Oh, okay, wait, there are rumble strips in my life that I haven't necessarily paid attention to. Some I have, some I haven't, this one I haven't really paid attention to. And there's good reason there's, there's some sorrow and sadness or fear, or there's something underneath that I haven't wanted to notice. But if I can start to pay attention, if I can start to unpack what that is, I can start to become much more aware when it's happening and why it's happening. And I can actually self regulate and guide myself quicker and with more grace and ease than I ever thought possible. Now. It doesn't mean that you're going to be able to do it easily or perfectly. A lot of times what I tell people, Hey, you're going to keep going off into the ditch time and time again, but you're going to learn. Cause you're gonna go, okay, the rumble strip was there somewhere. Let me go back. Let me unpack this. Let me, okay. Let me, Oh, there it was. I should have paid attention when that moment happened. And the more you keep doing that, the more. You will more quickly hear the rumble strip, the more you will assess the situation and you will stay actually in a healthier lane and a healthier path. And that's really the goal. So give yourself, of course, a lot of time and grace to explore what it is that's actually really going on. That's triggering, setting you off and then see when the next time it happens. If you can't pull back a little, because what you said, Hey, I'm just going to give it to him. Yeah. That is a way of doing it. And that's actually a good step so that you don't get upset in the moment, but again, to walk away and be able to unpack the real reason you're upset, the real reason that you're having sorrow.

Laurie 56:24

It's just not upset me, right? Like, like, you know, so I'm putting up, uh, that's a strategy of how to, to. Actually avoid conflict, which is not my go to, but I would like it to not cause conflict in the first place, you know, something as benign as that, you know? And so, yes, that is, um, everything you're saying is making perfect sense.

Beth 56:47

Um, well, and like I said, in, in coaching, like we, we take one step and it's like, I feel like today, what was so fun is I, here's the situation. Yes, you explode. Or yes, you have rage. Or yes, you have anger because something has poked the bear and that's going to keep happening. And so now you get to walk a new step, a new venture of what is really going on. Like, why did that really hurt? Um, and so thank you so much for just being so vulnerable and transparent because it really demonstrates. The hard work that this is for all the night types is if I had any type on here, their hard work feels just the same. Um, and I think being an eight and being vulnerable is so courageous. So here's the thing though, what, and, and I want to help people to know how to get in contact with you because you actually are doing the same thing that I'm doing, but with your clients, you're helping them to understand why they can't let go of that item or Why are you so quickly letting go of all of these things? You know, like it could go both ways. There's so many things that you are now aware of with your clients from an Enneagram perspective, that you are being mindful and taking them through your, you're helping them see those rumble strips as well. And to be aware so that when they declutter and organize that it actually fits them perfectly well, um, and they can do it with ease and grace, which is, which is so beautiful. So. With all that being said, how can people find you and what are some things that you offer, especially around the Enneagram that they might be like, I want to know more. Yeah,

Laurie 58:25

absolutely. Well, thank you. I appreciate that, that lead in and certainly, um, so my website is the best place to, that's like the hub for everything. So, which is simply the letter B like boy organized. And if you're watching this, you'll see it's been on the screen the whole time, but it's simply be organized. com. And then my podcast. Um, because I'm great with branding. Um, it's, it's called this organized life podcast, but the reason, um, if so, obviously if you're a podcast listeners, you're going to want to check it out. And because we, again, take a holistic approach and that's what I love about the interview because it is holistic and there isn't a one size fits all, um, specifically that. The application that I use, I would say primarily with the Enneagram. Obviously I use it in all aspects of my life, but professionally speaking through the lens of clutter and organization, there's a lot of different things. Um, we have a call it, I'm actually been toying around with it. It's like, I call it a course, but it's not really a course, but it's like a long workshop is really what it is. A long workshop that work walks through. It gives a top line overview for newbies that aren't familiar with the Enneagram, but then it goes into how does for people that are well versed in Enneagram. What is your, what are the three centers of intelligence have to do with how you view clutter? And then specifically we walk through each of the nine types. We look at what their, I call them strengths and struggles are when it comes to organization, like where your natural gifts and where some of your blind spots. And then we say, what are some practical strategies? Versus Let's become aware of it and see, Oh, that makes sense why this might be why I'm behaving this way, or I might be responding this way. And then we do some practical application on it. Um, so we've got that. We've got many courses. So if you're like, listen, I don't need a whole thing with all of them. I just want to see. See, learn a little bit more about my type. You can go there. We've got tons of free resources. Yeah. So we've got the mini course, we've got the master thing, and then we're actually in the process of building one out because I do a lot of work with other professional organizers as you coach other, any Graham coaches, I coach and mentor other professional organizers. And so I've been doing a lot of talks to, uh, groups and organizations. On how to apply this Enneagram and clutter framework with their own clients. How can they then bring this into the conversation? And so I've just been doing it live up until this point, but if you're somebody that's in this field, stay tuned and check back because we're going to be turning that into like a digital offering from the professional side of things, how you can apply that because I think it's so useful. And for people, you know, you're, you're working with, with people where they're very, where they are feeling vulnerable, where they are feeling overwhelmed, where they are dealing with anxiety and all of these things. And if you can meet somebody where they are and have a little bit of an understanding, even if you can't relate, even if I'm an eight and I'm like. I'm not, I don't, I can't relate to the, the, the two feeling specifically, but I can empathize and I can understand and I can apply some practical strategies that aligns with kind of what their natural default is. Yeah.

Beth 1:01:47

Well, I mean, I think it's spectacular and I encourage anyone to definitely go check that out. I'm like totally interested. I'm like, okay, what about my nineness? You know? Yeah. Um, and. So yeah, totally check out, you know, that workshop course online. Um, but, um, also just check out her podcasts and her books and her work. Cause to be dialed in to this area, like you said, we're all so vulnerable to it. Um, this is a hard thing for all of us because life just keeps coming at us. So thank you for just putting all of that hard work into it. You are plowing a path. And I really appreciate it because it's just such needed work. So, um, so everyone go to simply be organized and then listen to her podcast, the organized life. Thank you so much, Lori, for being with us today. Thanks so much back. Okay. So that was super fun. I hope that you guys, um, got to hear, you know, what it was like to walk someone through a specific scenario and, um, something that really is impactful to them, but they can't necessarily unpack it for themselves yet. Um, and that's part of Enneagram coaching. Like we get to take one step at a time and really unpack for them what's going on, but. It's not me. I don't know why she's feeling that. I don't know what's really going on, but I can definitely point out, Hey, I think this is actually a much bigger deal than maybe what you're wanting to hear. And that's perfectly understandable, especially for an eight and the sevens kind of coming in there, but also, and I didn't say this on there, but now my mind's going, well, yeah, but then the nine's like, I don't want that because that's uncomfortable. And then the five is like, yeah, but can we all just remain, uh, recluse into ourselves here? And then the two, you know, the two part of her just probably doesn't want to know about the hurt and the pain and the rejection. So, and that's what we talk about here at your Enneagram coaches being your Enneagram internal profile or EIP, those parts of you, the wings and your Enneagram paths that you're connected to are parts of you. And they chime in. And so, uh, for Lori, you know, the aid is definitely like, Hey, we are not going to allow this to control me to, um, to, uh, take root. I'm going to remain in control. And so, but I, what I love is how she's unpacking it. She's willing and vulnerable to go in that direction. So for me, I wanted to definitely take steps in the direction. But there's also a thing of just being very patient and allowing the person to unpack it in their own timing and in their own way. So for me, I hope to stay in touch with Lori and to kind of hear, you know, how she's unpacked it, what she's kind of found deeper down that might be really setting something off. But I think that's for all of us, right? What is really going on and why usually we are seeing the things on top of the surface, the iceberg, you know, like, Oh, I can see that clearly like that bothered me or that hurt me. But why? And so keep going down until you really hit the core motivations and unpack maybe a situation, a story that really kind of ignites you and got you there. Um, but for those of you that are out there that you're like, well, obviously. I'm going to need a little help in getting from point B to point A to point B, then please go get a certified Enneagram coach. Our coaches know the Enneagram very well, and they're going to help you to unpack what's going on and to get you from where you are to where you're wanting to go. So we, all of our certified coaches are part of our certification network directory. And you can find yours at my Enneagram coach. com. And really they're around the world. So find one that fits you best. But if you're also like, yeah, but I want to help someone that is so intriguing to sit across from someone like Beth or like Lori in the lane that she is in with organization and decluttering, then get trained in the Enneagram. You can see how powerful that is in using the Enneagram. Whether you're decluttering, whether you're a doctor, a lawyer, you're, um, an HR director, a pastor, use it right where you're at to help people to flourish with the things that you have to offer them. So to get a taste of Enneagram coaching, go to your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. And all of these will be in the show notes as well. Um, and we hope that you guys will just take that venture of getting coached or becoming a coach. Um, now. Also, the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it's the gospel that transforms you. I'll see you guys next week as we dive into another episode and another coaching session with another special guest. I'll see you guys then.