Introduction

Beth 1:11

Well, today I've got some special guests, a type one. Bill and type two Christy, and they're going to share with you how God has allowed them to be wounded healers. So if you're interested in what do wounded healers do and what resources do they have for for me to learn? Well, then listen in because you are gonna hear a lot of amazing things from Bill and Christy. Hey everyone. It's Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach, and this is your Enneagram coach, the podcast. Here at YEC, we desire for you to be able to use the Enneagram to bring real and lasting transformation into your lives and your relationships. But we're also deeply committed in raising up and training the next generation of amazing Enneagram coaches. Each episode, I am blending enlightening conversations with our special guests, as well as Enneagram coaching or deeper conversations in the Enneagram demonstrating how transformative the Enneagram can be in our lives. Plus stay tuned to the very end and I'm going to pull back the curtain and share with you some of the thoughts I had in our conversation, what I was actually thinking about and maybe why I steered the conversation in a particular way. But also maybe you're like me and you love the Enneagram. Well, if this podcast has meant a lot to you, please like subscribe and actually put a review in because we want others to find it as well, but send it to some friends too. They will also benefit from it. Now, maybe you're an Enneagram enthusiast and you're kind of thinking, maybe I would love to be an Enneagram coach, but I don't even know what it's really all about. Well, grab our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course here. You're going to learn all about what being an Enneagram coach is about and if it's the right fit for you. But maybe you're like, Oh, I'm not quite there, Beth, but I would love to be coached by an Enneagram coach. Great. Get yours at my Enneagram coach. com. And we have lots of certified Enneagram coaches there for you. Okay. Let's dive into today's episode.

Meet Bill and Kristi

Beth 3:24

And I have some really special guests that I've gotten to know over the last year. And this is Bill and Christy Gaultier. Now, Bill and Christy are doctors of psychology and the founders of Soul shepherding, a ministry to help pastors, leaders, churches, and all of those desiring to thrive with Jesus in emotional and relational health and their soul shepherding Institute retreats and training. They offer a certificate for serving as spiritual director. They have been speaking and writing about following Jesus in life and ministry since 1987. Bill and Christy are opposites in personality. Bill is a type a thinker and Christy is the, uh, relational feeler. And they'll talk more about this here in a second, but they love to blend their stories and personality styles when they're speaking and writing in their ministry. And this is including the journey of the soul. And their new book is called healthy feelings, thriving faith. And they use the Enneagram to help people to grow emotionally and their health and their emotional health while also loving relationships and having intimacy with Jesus. Well, with that, let me just say Bill and Christy, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Bill 4:44

Thank you, Beth. So fun to be with you and all your listeners at Uraniagram Coach.

Kristi 4:49

It's been a joy to just follow along with you. We've been learning with and from you as well. Starting when we first found you on Instagram and then just continuing to appreciate all of your excellent work. So thank you. It's an honor to be in conversation with you and your coaches and audience.

Beth 5:07

Well, I can't wait to dive into the book. But before we do, I'm sure not only I, but those listening would love to hear more about your own Enneagram journey. So tell us more about how you learned about the Enneagram. How did you discover your type? What was that journey like? And then what has been the impact on your life? Now that's a lot to, you know, say in just a few minutes, but what's been the impact for you guys in utilizing the Enneagram in your personal life and in your relationship?

Kristi 5:36

Well, we first learned about it about 30 years ago and didn't dive in we were kind of skeptical of it. Kind of not sure about this bill as a psychologist. You had a lot of training and assessments and personality tools. We were using some others. We're quite sure this was really valid, but it was because of some close friends who were really You Diving in and sharing. And we were seeing the fruit in their life and they were, as they were sharing, we were like, Oh, maybe there is something to this. And then in a group of women that I'm in a soul care group with, we go and retreat several times a year. We started to learn it together and journey together with it. And as I would share in our spiritual friendship, bill and you with our other friends, you began to dig into, and it was fact bill really was helpful to me and seeing my type, cause I was defended against it. I didn't want to be. a two. And so you were the one that really helped me to go to the place that, okay, yes, I am a two.

Bill 6:32

Well, actually I tricked you. I pulled out the book and started reading it and I changed it a little bit and talked about how the Enneagram twos love cats and because they like to cuddle and they like chocolate and it's okay, I guess I'm a two.

Beth 6:46

It was the

Kristi 6:46

dynamics under that that you were using around that that definitely nailed me in terms of projecting my needs onto my cat and nurturing the cat. But I didn't want

Bill 6:54

to be nailed. You thought I was an Enneagram one. And so we were talking about the Enneagram one as a perfectionist and all this anger and I'm thinking. I have a problem with anger. I'm not an Enneagram one. I'm not resentful. I don't like this test. And then I hurt myself and go, Oh,

Beth 7:12

right. Yeah. I mean, it's so amazing how we, I mean, the Enneagram reveals all of the beautiful aspects of us all the way down to the most unpleasant. But usually as a human, we just really focus in on those unpleasant qualities. And then our defensive mechanism comes up and we just try to, Oh, no, that's not me. Or I don't want to see that. Or I don't want to be that type. Be like, that's the worst type. It's usually what people think. Um, and it sounds kind of like you guys were on that same trajectory and journey.

Personal Growth and Transformation through the Enneagram

Beth 7:41

So when you finally kind of just owned and settled in your type, what was the, the growth path for you guys?

Bill 7:49

Yeah, well, that was 20 years ago, and I think for me, it was really getting out of the defensive posture, which is where the Enneagram is so powerful, if we'll humble ourselves before the Lord and let the Lord use this tool, and then especially with safe friends or with a coach, I just began to see that my main problem really wasn't anxiety emotionally, which is what I thought it was, but that was really a symptom of underlying anger and I did have resentment issues because I was carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders trying to do everything better and perfect and thinking it was all up to me and I had to have all the great ideas and work harder and make everything better and I just came to see that that really does describe me. And then, as I learned about the Enneagram Map, and the dynamics between the different types and movements and numbers, and you have my core emotion and a stress emotion, and then stress, with my stress type, and then the, the consolation space. It really opened up for me, and I saw the power of it, and I saw that, wow, so what's so good here is here's a spiritual psychology tool, and in Soul Shepherding, that's where we live. We're, we're, we're integrating Christ centered spirituality and psychology. And so now we have a tool that is available to the public for anyone can dive into and understand, and it gives a common language. And so I just love the power of that map that was making what's so complicated. In personality and relationships and spirituality because I mean God's created us and we're wonderfully complex So but it's taking that and finding the simplicity in it And so when I can just remember to not overdo My one and find that spontaneous playful fun seven or find my wing That's what that's a warm hearted two It gives me Options in a way to express myself that actually is more fun for me and for other people.

Beth 9:53

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we,

Kristi 9:55

it was so helpful because I think it revealed sin that I was unconscious of. So therefore I couldn't repent. It was, it was getting in the way of my spiritual growth, my intimacy with Jesus, when I wasn't even aware of or able to therefore own my sin of pride. And so getting that identity of that identified as I. Recognize I was a two at first. It was so painful. Oh, I really am the emperor with no clothes on. Other people know I'm a two. No, I'm waking up to it. They're seeing these things in me. I was defended against seeing it. And, you know, that old saying, oh, what a gift. We give to see ourselves as others see us. And that's really what the new grant does is help and to be able to see my defense mechanisms of where I was depending upon those are trying to get my underlying needs met unconsciously. In ways that we're trying to secure myself, that was really interrupting my dependency upon Jesus as my Lord, as my savior, as the one who really loves me and meets my needs. So that was so helpful. And then another thing that really has been helpful about the knee grant personally

The Power of Empathy in the Enneagram

Kristi 11:05

is. It has been a great tool for empathy. It's increased my empathy for Bill, for my children, for my clients, for the people that I work with in soul shepherding, our employees, because it gives me a lens to understand and see their pain. Their need, why they're depending upon the defense mechanisms that they are not to take it personally. Sometimes the way that they will react under stress and to understand that. So I've so appreciated that. And that's been a powerful tool for us in our ministry. And we use it in, it's one of the tools that we use in training or search directors, because it's just so helpful to be able to have that knowledge accessible for the Holy Spirit to guide. As in really loving our neighbor and helping them to grow in emotional health and healthy spirituality and intimacy with Jesus.

Beth 11:58

Yeah. So I would love just to take a, just a little second here, because you know, you guys train spiritual directors, I train Enneagram coaches, and can you help, um, those that are listening to kind of understand what the space of spiritual directors is and what that might even look like.

The Role of Spiritual Directors

Bill 12:20

Yeah. Well, a spiritual director joins somebody in their relationship with God. So they're really listening prayerfully on behalf of God. And they're asking questions like, how have you experienced God's presence recently? Uh, and they're asking questions like, uh, a counselor, a pastor, or a soul friend, or a coach might ask that are personal. How is it in your life and what's going on? And they're always listening prayerfully. And then they have resources and tools, particularly in soul shepherding, the way we train our people. So we, we train them in the Enneagram. And so then they have that as a tool to understand people because everybody needs language to describe their feelings and needs and their struggles and, and how that's affecting their relationship with God. So. The spiritual director is not treating like a mental health disorder like a therapist would. So Christy and I, longtime therapists, and we've also been in the church world and pastoral roles, but we're, we're training spiritual directors and it's informed by our Jesus centered psychology. So we're using that psychology to help people in their relationships, their emotions, their health, their, their spirituality.

Kristi 13:28

The other thing that we're doing that is a little bit different is giving our spiritual directors a part of their training is giving them experiences with a multiple spiritual disciplines and soul care practices that then the Holy Spirit might lead them to offer and to lead. client that they're working with in or to be able to discern how the Holy Spirit might be leading their client into a soul care practice that maybe they're even resistant to. So for example, as an Enneagram 2, I found that the most important soul care practice for me, and most, we talk about spiritual disciplines as if they're really medicines for a sick soul. So as an Enneagram 2, I get sick around the temptation to please other people or orbit around other people. To have a sense of wellbeing and to try to secure myself based on how other people feel about me. But the most important soul care practice for me as a two then is to take time in solitude where I cut off all that tuning into everybody else's needs and emotions. So that I can get in touch with my own needs and bring them before my heavenly father. And I can quiet down all those competing voices and I can get honest about the shame that I feel and get in touch with that and bring that to the Lord for empathy. And also for me to have a. a spiritual director that I meet with regularly where then I can come to and I can be processing that shame and my defense mechanisms and where I'm getting stuck and bringing my needs before God. So that we found that that is so helpful and so important to have that safe space. Really each personality we found each neogram type has a different soul care practice or spiritual discipline that they most need but resist. So for me as a two, I resisted solitude more than any other spiritual discipline because for me it felt like punishment. I'm an expert. I love people right. I'm also Uh, the youngest of my family, and I'm the only feeler in my family of origin. So when I had emotions, my family didn't know what to do with my emotions. So they would isolate me. They would send me to my room until I calmed down. And so to me, be put in solitude was punishment. Sure. So I needed to be able to learn the invitation of no, I'm not being abandoned in solitude. I'm actually being nurtured by Jesus. It's actually a safe space for me to receive care. So those are the types of things that we train our spiritual directors to understand and be experts in and to be soul shepherds after God of an heart.

Beth 16:06

With people. And that's what's so amazing about the Enneagram because we get to tailor or customize their well being to who they really are, who God created them to be, but also the struggles on this side of heaven. Um, okay. So use me as an example. So I'm a type nine and I'm coming, I need some help. How am I, you know, resisting solitude and care? Cause like, as a nine it's like, and I, you know, obviously I could nuance this, you know, if I was talking to someone else, but, um, I want to think through because, you know, as a nine, when it comes to like self care and solitude, it's like, oh, yeah, you know, I, I can just sit and quiet and peace and, you know, like, it can sound super easy, right? But obviously, growth is hard. So I'm that's not. The right path for the nine. So how would you guys direct denying?

Bill 16:58

Yeah. Well, we concur with you on the value of the customized, uh, coaching, customized discipleship, customized spiritual direction. That's so good. So yeah, nines are very different in our experience. We, we love nines. We have nines in our family. We have nines and soul shepherding and spiritual directors are often nines. Uh, so yeah, with, with nines. You know, we're like, like me as a one, we're living in that anger triad, but it's very hidden for the nine. You're right in the middle. And so the difficulty with self activation is what we're working with there, the difficulty of, uh, initiative and, and coming from a genuine, uh, place with that rather than a, uh, accommodating others. And so that's the emotional alarm that we Teach nines to set the wake up call is to try to catch themselves when they're sliding into a pattern of accommodating others. Because as I'm sure you have found and are coaching others in who are nines, uh, they start going down that path. And at some point they're, they're lost. And a lot of times it's, uh, uh, goes back to childhood and the, the family formation we talk about for nines is probably a lost child syndrome, something in that area. being the peacemaker, which of course is the typical name for a nine. So if you can wake up to that tendency to start accommodating and being deferential and, well, I don't care where we eat, where do you want to eat and merging and giving everybody else a voice rather than having your own, your own opinion, then that, that frees you up to be on a different journey. And the key soul care practice that we identify to really help you with that would not be solitude. I mean, Solitude can benefit all of us in different ways, but the key we think is talking with a spiritual director or a coach. And it's interesting because as I said, we've found the nines make the most amazing spiritual directors or coaches because they're great listeners or great question askers that get out of the way. They see the good in people that they harmonize, they give people a voice. And so it's just awesome. We love those things about nines, but if they go too far down that path without breathing, They start to get lost, and then they're internalizing anger into their body, and then that's what's siphoning off all of their energy. So, when a Nine has someone to listen to them, and ask them questions, and give them empathy, and make space for them. We've just seen the nines just flourish and blossom. And then lo and behold, they got all this energy and nines are the best workers and leaders. It's so such a misnomer to say, and that's so obvious with you, Beth, because you're such an amazing leader. And so many of our us presidents have been nines, but that's right. When, once the nines get on a roll, that's, we, we identify a theme for each of the types and the themes for the nineties. Getting on a roll. It's like, wow, you guys are so productive and make such loving contributions and bring such beauty into the world.

Beth 19:59

Yeah. I a hundred percent agree. And yeah, cause you know, as minds is somehow, and I, Christy, I'm sure you can relate to this too, because twos have this. But it's like I have a sign on my head that says here, please say whatever you want. Tell me your whole story. Tell me all the things are going on. And you know, we, we do, we listen, we're very open and nonjudgmental and very, you know, accommodating. But what we find is if we pause. It usually doesn't shift in the other way. Like the person doesn't usually go, Oh, well, let me inquire about you, you know, so the nine feels like, well, I guess my presence doesn't matter. They're not really interested in me. Or if we start to talk about ourselves, we feel like we see their eyes glass over, or they're not as interested as we were attuning to them. And so we kind of shut it down, like, Oh, I guess this isn't the direction I should go. So I love what you're saying, because I do feel like that is so important that the nine feel very attuned to just as when we're babies, you know, we gaze into the eyes of our parents because we need that attunement. We need to feel that we belong. We're connected to that. We have autonomy. But connection, um, and that we're loved in that space. And so what you're really saying is exactly what a nine does need is that deep attunement and that it's safe to open up and to share. And you're right, man, us nines, that inertia is so real either, you know. Something that is not in motion stays at rest, but something that's in motion, you better watch out here we come. And so having someone to unlock that, to get kind of give it a good push, so to speak, um, to help the nine get going, to open up that nonjudgmental space and be receptive is absolutely spot on. Thank you for kind of sharing that. I'm like, yeah. I need that space. Good, good for you.

Kristi 21:55

And yeah, privilege and a gift, even though you give the person who is holding that space for you and listening to you, that you let them see you and you let them pray for you and you let them get to know you. Bill and I know the joy of that because between the two of us, we spent over a hundred thousand hours in the pool of pain, listening to people's pain, their emotions, giving them. That attunement and through it, we've learned and grown so much as well. So you, you, one of the things you need to know is you dive into that work. And as you open up and become vulnerable and let yourself matter and share your inner world, then you're actually blessing others so much

Beth 22:37

more. Well, and I would just encourage, cause we have so many nines that, you know, follow us. Um, That I just really encourage the nines out there like this really needs to be a wake up call. I mean, obviously you would be fabulous at being a coach, a director, a therapist, you know, something of that sort. But first go get your own coach or your spiritual director that can hold that space for you, that can receive and allow you to. To flourish, to find yourself, to find your voice because it really does matter.

Unpacking the New Book: Healthy Feelings, Thriving Faith

Beth 23:08

Um, okay, so let's move into the book. So tell us more about your new book and unpack it for us. Let us hear it and learn a little bit about what you have inside it. Yeah, the

Bill 23:20

book is Healthy Feelings, Thriving Faith, Growing Emotionally and Spiritually Through the Enneagram. And what we're saying there, it's a bold title, we're saying that emotions and faith actually are meant to integrate. And emotional intelligence comes from, uh, self awareness and is actually a friend to our faith in God, not a foe. And a lot of people put, uh, pit. Feelings and faith against each other is though having emotions is a weakness, a problem. I'm too needy. I'm not strong enough. I can't be a good leader. I wouldn't be good at business. And if I would just think better, everything would fall into place. And so we have a lot of this idea, you know, change your thoughts and that will change your feelings and change your life. And I mean, there's some truth to that, that of course our thoughts influence our feelings, but it goes the other way too. And so we want everybody to understand that your emotions. Are a gift and the Enneagram is such a powerful tool to help us understand those emotions. So angle we take in the book that is, is different than others is we really just emphasize those emotions. So every type is a core emotion, a stress, emotion, and the key emotions that we're all trafficking around as it relates to distress, that we're all living and breathing and reacting to our anger, shame. Anxiety and then underlying sadness. Yeah. So we show you how that works in every personality type and then how you can, through awareness and through prayer and through these sort of safe conversations that we're talking about, Beth, we can grow in, in, in a place of intimacy with God and health with, with, uh, each other and in all that we're doing.

Kristi 25:03

We have a chapter on anger, shame, anxiety, and sadness. We have a chapter on help for each of those emotions too. And then a chapter of each of the nine types. Our books really in an e gram 201 book, it goes deeper with it. And our model of how we found it to be so helpful in helping people to really grow and heal and Understand the ways that their emotions stack. We don't just have one emotion that we live in, but we have secondary emotions. We have our motions that come out when we're going, when we're in stress and how we can really integrate and live in the full health and grow in Christ likeness. So one of my favorite things about healthy feelings, driving faith is that in each chapter, we give several examples as Jesus as that type. Go to the scriptures showing Jesus. As each of the neogram types, several examples from scripture and then how we can each as our type in each type grow to be more like Jesus. Right. Also in that we have soul care practices for each of the type that we list for each type, most needs. And then we also have empathy. For each type chapter, because that's so important. As you know, the neogram is a powerful tool. And if not used rightly, it can be dangerous and hurtful. So we always want to lead with following Jesus instruction in his greatest commandment to love him with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. So we need to be able to receive empathy from Jesus. Because we love or we empathize because he first loved and empathize with us. So we're wanting people to really be able to agree with God's grace and see his empathy for them, receive that deeply. And then also out of that, participate with empathizing with others of other types.

Beth 27:01

That is so beautiful. I love that. Um,

Understanding the Enneagram Journey of a Type One and Type Two

Beth 27:04

okay. So tell us, like, let's unpack a little bit about what you, cause we talked about this a little bit before we hopped on the podcast that Um, you, you gave kind of the, um, caveat that, Hey, we're still using this. We're still growing. Like, you know, it's not like we've mastered this. So obviously you wrote this book because it's an overflow of what you have learned. So give us maybe an example or two of being a one and a two and how. This understanding, this awareness, this growth that you have done, um, which then became the book, how it has helped the two of you with your own relational dynamics.

Kristi 27:47

Great. Yeah, it's been super helpful. I think to be able to catch myself in a dynamic of going to stress in my relationship with Bill really helps me to take personal responsibility and own what I need to be working on. And it also helps me to feel empathy for you and what I see you struggling with instead of just going to blame an attack or personalizing it. In which case, then I try to fix, or I go into shame as an e gram too. So it's so helpful. So let me, let me give you an example of that. We're leading a ministry that's growing. We are excited about the growth, what God's doing. And it's, we're getting to, we're confident we're doing what God has called us to do. So that's such a joy. And we love working together. We're wounded healers. We get to offer just everything God's taught and done. In us and through us, one of the things that we were surprised to learn is that people over and over will say to us when they come to our soul shepherding Institute, you know, it. It's the two of you together. It's the way I see God's love modeled and it's the relationship and those dynamics that are bigger than you two individually. And we, we just praise God for that because it's not something we're making happen. It's something God is doing through him, growing us in our ability to receive his love and share it with each other. So, but we hit, we hit pain points. Of course, you know, we're still growing. We're, we're, we still hit our stress and especially as our ministry has been growing and expanding so much, we're carrying more and more responsibility and it's harder and harder for us not to overextend and as an Enneagram one bill and Enneagram two, that's something that we share in common. We have a lot of differences, but one of the commonalities is both of us have a tendency to overextend, but when we're overextended, It affects us differently. So Bill, you want to talk a little bit about how it affects you when you overextend and then I can talk about how I react to that and how that interplays between

Beth 29:54

us.

Bill 29:54

Yeah, my natural style is, uh, type a thinker, doer, uh, huge capacity to do more work. Uh, I'm an ideator. I love starting things. I've got that line to the seven, the enthusiast. And, uh, so growing soul shepherding is fun. Managing soul shepherding is not fun. And my best gift is not like delegating and collaborating. My best gift is doing it myself and doing it better. And so I, I've had to like build my whole rhythm of life. around not doing that. And so that's where the emotional alarm for the Enneagram one is so helpful to me. And that's feelings of personal obligation. When I have this sense that it's up to me, I've got to fix the mess. I've got to make it better. I've got to make it perfect. I've got to work harder. It's like, I need to hear that and wake up. It's like, Hey, wait a minute. I need to like. Stop and pray or talk to christy or talk to a friend talk to my spiritual director or find somebody to collaborate with Uh and realize that well, maybe somebody else has a better idea. It's not all up to me It's to not trust that that like gut deep instinct I'm going to make it better. And then I just bury myself in like all this, all this work. And so leaning into collaboration has been a really key to soul shepherding, but you know, I don't, I don't always do that well. And as it relates to you, Christy, sometimes I'll overperform. And I would say that like this very conversation we're having now with you, Beth is an illustration of how we've been learning and growing because the way it used to be before the Enneagram 20 years ago. And at that point in time, I mean, we're, We're both therapists. We've been in therapy. We have a lot of self awareness. So, yeah, as I illustrated earlier, I had some pride that I didn't realize that I didn't think I needed the Enneagram. I needed the Enneagram. I needed Jesus through the Enneagram. So, uh, I, I had to come to grips with the fact that I was over functioning. And so the way we were, started off leading our Soul Shepherding Institute retreats and our training was I would do all the talking and the teaching and Christy would do all all the helping and encouraging and chime in now and again, but it would be like 95 percent Bill talking and we figured out that actually I'm Thankful the Lord helped me to see and part of us the sort of feedback We were hearing from people but people wanted to hear from Christy But my personality was overwhelming hers. So we've got a system between us that she would like just tap me on the back when she had something to say. And then I purpose, this was like a spiritual discipline for me. Every time she interrupted me, I said, Uh, thank you. That was so good. I needed that. Keep doing that. And so then to get it. So it'd be more equal, But

Kristi 32:50

it took a lot of courage for me because I was used to he would over function. I would under function Or he would lead and I would orbit to please try to make it all happen And then or the other thing I would do is sometimes I would shut down and shame and I would say he doesn't want me He doesn't need me. There's no place for me So I go to the lower levels of of the four And I would maybe get into self pity, get into the low levels of the two and that shame, that hiding, feeling not wanted, that injury, feeling rejected. So it was really important for me to realize that and realize that's, that's not, those are not. What Jesus is saying to me, Jesus is calling me to take courage and offer my gifts as a collaborator and to share what he's taught me and given me. And so as I would practice that and take courage to show up more and to try to. Speak up more. And as you were giving me opportunity to that, that was really a great gift for me because it helped me to be able to be more of who God called me to do and see God really has given me something special to offer

Beth 33:58

here.

Bill 33:59

Right. What I love about that for you, Christie, I'd like to love for you to share more with Beth and the listeners is that you're, Um, hidden, sort of low self esteem and shame had your, uh, resident emotional intelligence as a heart type hidden and you grew up with, with a lot of shame on having emotions and like, uh, being too sensitive and all that. And so, but you had all this emotional intelligence. And so what's happened is Christie has spoken up more is that it's come out and we have. PhDs in our institute retreats that learn more from Christy than from me. And it's because of that relationality. It's that emotional

Kristi 34:43

wisdom. Well, I learned that I'm a wounded healer, but it was actually before when I was hiding all those wounds in shame, God couldn't use them. To bring healing to other people. But as I began to take courage, to come out of the shame and to be emotionally honest and vulnerable with people and share my experience, other people were so helped and would thank me because I was able to be articulating their inner experiences and

Beth 35:09

validating that. Well, I know that for the twos, you know, a big fear is rejection. And so it's, you know, it's like, do I say anything? Do I be vulnerable? Do I be transparent? Because what if that doesn't align with what others want to hear? And will they reject me? Does that feel true?

Kristi 35:28

Oh, very true. Yes. Because. My core wound is abandonment. I was abandoned as a child. I was born with the opening to my stomach closed off. And so because of that, I needed to be placed in the hospital. I needed a surgery and emergency as an infant to save my life and open up my stomach so I could receive nutrition. And through that, I experienced an abandonment that then I. Interpreted as a rejection and not be more. My mom was overwhelmed. She, you know, later I heard from her that she actually felt rejected by me as an infant because she couldn't comfort me. She would try to feed me and she couldn't comfort me because I wasn't getting nutrition. So I was. I was screaming, I was desperate and I couldn't receive comfort. So there was a dynamic there that went on and I internalized and personalized all that as if I was not wanted as if I shouldn't be. And I was the third girl. I know my parents wanted a boy. I wasn't supposed to be another girl. And so there were many things that I kept seeing through that. That lens that kept reinforcing that sense of not wanted rejected and feeling shame. I shouldn't be alive. I thought I don't deserve to be alive. God must not have had a purpose for me. I was supposed to die as a baby. And so those lies of the enemy were really keeping me shrouded in shame.

Beth 36:52

And of course he continues to shoot arrows there. Right. I was going to say like, yeah, what, what better place than to shoot arrows of you are like, as if you are rejected, you know, and. But it sounds like the work that you've been doing as a wounded healer is to remind yourself. I'm not only am I not rejected, he pursued me unconditional love, you know, and to be enveloped in that, you know, as a tune, of course that message is true for all the nine types, but you know, I always talk about. That each type has a core longing, a message, their heart longs to hear. And of course, all of the gospel is tried and true and wonderful. But for the two to hear you are wanted and loved unconditionally. Just resonates so deep within. Um, so Bill, what, like, you know, what about you and unpacking kind of the deep, deeper understandings and longings of your own story? And then, you know, understanding you're the one and the resentment and how is that all? You know, helped you as well grow

Bill 38:00

as a child. I was the oldest of five kids, so seven in our family. And, uh, the role I took on was the parentified child, uh, which is, uh, sort of like the hero, uh, which is commonly the role for the three. And so we identify that with Enneagram ones. That's very common from many ones I've listened to. And so there's a lost childhood there. Uh, there's a, uh, as a, as a boy, a very serious, hardworking, I was babysitting my younger sister when I was like four years old and she was one and my mom needed to take my dad to the train and it's only going to be 20 minutes and do you have any questions and no, I'll be fine. And so, I mean, I didn't know what I was doing, obviously, and all, all through my childhood, I was taking on responsibilities to. To be the helper for mom in the kitchen. And, uh, as I said, the babysitter working in the yard and then getting A's in school and scoring touchdowns and hitting home runs and living by the family values and being everything that my parents wanted me to be is in the way of being responsible. And if ever one of my younger sisters got upset, uh, cried. It was my fault because I was the older one and I shouldn't have made him cry. And so I just learned to take responsibility for everything all the time. And I learned to try to control the outcomes of things. And part of that was because I was like the celebrated in the family as the hero. And so I unconsciously, I couldn't put words to this even as a teenager. But when I brought home A's or when I did well in sports, it made everybody happy. And, you know, there was some stress and conflict and problems in our family is that we were a Christian family, but any, any family has issues and stuff going on and I just, I wanted to make things better. And so being that hero role, being so responsible, sort of supported the whole family and then. That's just, I've just brought that into my whole life. And the positive in that is I don't have any problem being responsible. It's like, I, I'm a hard worker, but then as I've said, I overdo that. And so that's what can really bury me in the resentment of, uh, just feeling like I'm, I'm carrying the weight of the whole world on my shoulders and, um, never gonna get out of this and nobody's helping

Beth 40:19

me. Yeah, and so then like the, the core longing, the message, the one wants to hear is you are good, but they get stuck there, especially as a Christian, because it's like, well, I know I'm not good, like, and they can point out all of their sins and their faults and they can get really hunkered down in that. You know, hopeless place really. But then the great news of the gospel is, you know, Romans eight, one, you know, that there is no more condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. That when God looks at you, he can say you are good, not because you are good, but because Christ is perfect and good in you and his righteousness is now in you. Um, So what, that kind of gospel message that I know you have, you know, brought into your life time and time again, how has that given you, like, a refresh, a refreshing feeling, a new look, a new stride in your step that wasn't there before?

Bill 41:16

Yeah, well, that's so good, Beth. I love what you're saying. And I have definitely as a one had a special realization of my need for God's grace and that Jesus is the hero and I don't have to be and I Mean I I get to come underneath the Lord. I get to be his disciple And so, yeah, the unconditional love of God, apart from performance, apart from even being responsible, uh, being forgiven of my sins is so important to me. And I think where the Enneagram has helped me, in addition to sort of identifying that, that need that you're pointing out is also along the lines of sort of the path of discipleship that we've been illustrating the, the, the model that we're using here. And so when I. can realize and wake up to this sense of personal obligation, which is really a form of pride. It's a form of self reliance. It's a form of not trusting God. And so it's, it's really connected to, uh, my, my root sin of. Resentment and, and so forth. And so when I can realize that and wake up to that, and then I can move towards another space, so, uh, like my seven space of, uh, the enthusiast and finding the playfulness and the fun and the spontaneity, just realizing just the. Genius of that map because of everything around the clock face of the Enneagram. What I most need when I'm not, when I'm in my average or unhealthy one, what I most need is the happy seven. What I most need is all that, that joy and playfulness and have fun with something. And so waking up to that and seeing Jesus come to me in that way, seeing Jesus as He's responsible. He's a teacher. He's bringing wisdom. He's definitely reforming. He's reformed Judaism. He's, he's brought the new covenant so much, but he does it with, with humor. He does it with, with joy, with exuberant joy, the joy of the Holy Spirit. He does it with, uh, quiet in a patience, uh, in an unhurried way. And so this whole discipline I mentioned around abandoning the outcomes to God is so powerful for me as a one, I just need constant reminders to let go of the results. It doesn't have to be perfect. I mean, like, like right now I'm doing that. Cause if I'm like totally in my one, then I just think I need to like get. everything I say needs to be right. It needs to be like so perfect. I need to like be the expert because I'm an author and all this kind of thing. But it's like to just know, step in to know this is a conversation. This, this is with, with Beth and with Christy, we're just having a conversation. It's going to flow and it's going to be in a way for a one kind of messy, but that's what it is. Embrace that. Enjoy that. When I think my own

Beth 44:14

breathe, that's what's so fun about type ones when it comes to nature. They love nature and, but nature isn't perfect. It's like beautiful chaos. And, but it's in that beautiful chaos that the ones. Can enjoy it because it, it, it is what it's supposed to be. And there's this kind of relaxation into the messiness of how God just, you know, spontaneous creates things, you know, and, and the joy of that. Um, and I feel like that is the grace. and joy of embodying a little bit of that sevenness because God is whimsical and creates. And it's like when you go into a field with wild flowers, like you could just almost imagine him going, Oh, that was fun. And doing it again and again and again, and just seeing like his creativity and spontaneousness come alive and the joy that that offers. And I usually see ones being able to like, Rest and embrace and enjoy nature because it is what it's supposed to be. And that's kind of what I'm hearing from you, even with this conversation. Like there's the part of you, right? The type one that's like, Oh, there needs to be a right way of doing it. But then the more healthy adult version of yourself saying, no, just have fun. Just embrace. And it's going to be great as it is. Does that sound true? Oh,

Bill 45:46

that's spot on. And you're talking my language about nature, Beth. I love that term, uh, beautiful chaos. I get a dose of nature every day. Go outside, take a run around the lake near our home and pray. I meditate so good for my soul, helps me relax. And that, that virtue of the one serenity. Right? As I get into that sort of a place that actually helps me appreciate God's grace. I mean, God's grace helps me get there. We can say, but also helps me recognize the beauty and goodness and mercy of the Lord when I slow down. Hmm.

Beth 46:26

That is so good. Well, thank you guys so much for just not just being open and transparent, but doing the work yourself, being the wounded healers, and then leading others on that path of grace and growth. And knowing that in the messiness of it all, that God is the one redeeming, restoring, and billing us up in new ways. Can you again, just. help people to know where they can find you, your work, the things that, that are really, really important in what you're doing, what God is calling you to. Yeah. You

Bill 47:00

can find Healthy Feelings, Thriving Faith, wherever books are sold. You can go to soulshepherding. org slash Enneagram. You'll find that book. You'll find our book, Your Enneagram Map, which we self published, which is a smaller book, sort of a spillover book. You'll find our video course. On the Enneagram, and then you can also learn about Soul Shepherding, where we train spiritual directors and love to have you in our group. All of you who are listening, you would, it would help you as an Enneagram coach, what you would learn from us.

Beth 47:34

Yeah. So hold those up again. I was cause Christy, you had held them up. So if you're not on YouTube, you got to go to YouTube and you can see what the books look like, or go to their website and you can kind of see the materials they have. And. You know, thank, thank you guys so much for just putting so much time and effort and, um, processing it yourself, you know, it's so beneficial to know that you're not just out there throwing something together. This is the work that you've been doing for a very long time and you're just guiding people along the same journey. Um, thank you guys so much for being with me today. This has been such a fun conversation and hearing what the Lord has been doing in and through you as well.

Bill 48:12

Thanks for having us. It's been such a joy, such an honor. Love your Enneagram coach and what you're doing and thanks for all your teachings has been helping us.

Beth 48:20

Thank you so much. Well, I hope that you guys really enjoyed my conversation with Bill and Christy. Aren't they wonderful? Well, for me, you know, just thinking in the background as a coach, I really enjoy their approach. They're very mindful of each of the types personalities. And as they train people, what I loved to hear, um, especially as a nine is. How they are really mindful of how to tailor or customize any teaching to that type. And I think that is so important because a lot of times we'll go and we'll listen to teachers or pastors, um, et cetera, podcast. And we're trying to fit the overarching topic to us. And sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't fit well. And a lot of times it's because. It might be coming from a different types perspective. Maybe the overarching concept is really helpful, but the way they're nuancing it or the direction they're wanting you to go with it sometimes just doesn't feel right. And so I really appreciated how they are. considering and thinking about each of the types when they're guiding them, especially in spiritual direction. Um, and so I look forward to exploring more with, you know, their work and what they have going on. And I hope that you'll take the time to, to, uh, dive into their books and their resources to see, you know, how Enneagram coach, but. As I've said before, you know, for us, we are here to raise up the next generation of amazing Enneagram coaches to help you to understand. So our mission statement here at your Enneagram coach is to help people to understand themselves with astonishing clarity so they can break free from self condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love. Forgiveness and freedom in Christ. So that is what we're here for. That is what we're training. The next generation of Enneagram coaches. So if you were the kind of person that's like, Hey, that sounds amazing. I would love to be a part of that. And to watch people grow and transform right before my eyes, then go ahead and get our free mini course on Enneagram coaching. And that's at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash. Mini course, or if you're like, Hey, I would really enjoy having someone guide me in that process, then please go get one of our certified Enneagram coaches@myenneagramcoach.com. Well, I hope that you will share this episode with those that you know could really benefit from it. And there are so many people out there that are curious about the Enneagram. They just don't know where to look, especially from a gospel centered perspective. So I hope that you will like, subscribe, and share this with others. Don't forget we're on YouTube, so you can watch this, um, if you would prefer more of a visual component. Well, again, thank you guys for joining me today. And remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it is the gospel that transforms us. Thank you guys. And we'll see you next time at your Enneagram coach, the podcast.