Beth 1:11

Hey everyone. Welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach and here at YEC. We are passionate to bring the Enneagram to you to bring real and lasting transformation for your lives and your relationships. And we're also deeply committed to raising up and training the next generation of amazing Enneagram coaches. Now, each episode we are blending enlightening conversations with special guests while also demonstrating some live coaching for you so that you can experience what Enneagram coaching is all about. Plus stay tuned to the end. I'm going to pull back the curtain and share some of my thoughts, the things that I was thinking about as a coach and why I went in certain directions, why I asked certain things and why I went the way I went. Right? So the coaching mindset. So stay tuned for that. And if you're enjoying this content, we really hope that you will like, subscribe, and then put a review for others to find this podcast as well. Well, for those of you that are passionate about guiding others with the Enneagram, you're one of those people that you can't stop telling them about the Enneagram and helping them find their Enneagram type and giving them direction. Well, maybe becoming an Enneagram coach is the right thing for you. And we have a, got a course called become an Enneagram coach to give a taste of what that's like. You can get our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. If you're like, Beth, I'm not quite ready for that. I just want to dive in and have transformation for my own life. Great. Get one of our certified Enneagram coaches by going to my Enneagram coach. com. Now with that, let's dive into today's episode.

Introduction to Special Guest: Joe Graham

Beth 2:52

Let me introduce to you my special guest, Joe Graham. Now for Joe, his entire career was building relationships with people, developing leaders and empowering teams. He has worked with people of all different ages and backgrounds in a wide variety of industries and settings A change management and thought leader who motivates executives and teams to innovate through diverse ideation, project vision casting, and smarter talent in organizational management. Now he taught as an adjunct professor with Hope College's Center for Leadership and Western Theological Seminary. And he also, guess what? Is a certified Enneagram coach, also a certified leadership coach. And with that, let me bring Joe on. Hey, Joe. It's so great to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for joining me.

Joe 3:45

Hey, so good to be here, Beth.

Beth 3:47

Yeah. I mean, gosh, we go back quite a ways. When was it that you actually took a BEC become an Enneagram

Joe 3:53

coach course? It was, I believe it was 2018. And I often tell people, I believe I was in the first hundred coaches to go through your Enneagram coach training. So it's really exciting to be here and even think back that far.

Beth 4:10

Yeah. Cause we have now over 2000 coaches that have gone through it. So yeah, you were right there at the very beginning. That was awesome. And then we've seen each other along the way. You've been on the podcast a couple of times. You're kind of my go to type five, cause I really feel like you.

Joe's Career and Enneagram in Leadership

Beth 4:26

You do such a great job explaining it, but that probably is kind of the teacher part of your heart, and kind of sharing things, and you're very personable, and that kind of sounds like it goes along with You're gifting and you're calling so kind of walk us through the timeline of your career and like where you've been and where are you going and where are you at right now?

Joe 4:49

Yeah, so, uh, I'll see if I can do the cliff notes. I always love like what bio did I submit? Oh, am I that guy? I'm not a three, but you did think I was a three when we first met. And so that's right. Yeah, I can discuss that as well. And that's also why you need coaching, because it was with a community of others that I discovered I wasn't a three, but I'm actually a five. And that's really important, uh, in any, any journey for anybody, and the Enneagram just helps you get there faster. So, I, uh, was an executive pastor for a church planting network in western Michigan, and we get this great gift of doing professional development. And I had started utilizing the Enneagram as a leadership tool because it was, Increasingly getting popular. And then we'd have like different interns come up and tell you what number they were. And I'd be like, what are you talking about? And, you know, as a five, you have to, you know, find out what they're talking about and get a little curious. And, uh, so I did the leadership core, uh, the. leadership training for your Enneagram coach, uh, in summer of 2018. And I think I was the first person to ask for it all at once. It used to be like chronological. And I was like, Hey, could I just get it all at once? I just, I'm going to take a week and plow through it, which I knew I was a five at that point, obviously. And I knew that's how my brain works. And that really. What I learned through doing that course, and then I started doing some coaching and my main job as a leader and the church network I was working for, but also I started my own coaching practice on the side is I just love working with people and that has been the happening. Kind of the foundation of my career is how do I work with people and the Enneagram has been a tool that just helped me do that better, uh, and also lead myself better, uh, be better in my own marriage, my own family. And the Enneagram, uh, doesn't, doesn't let it slip anywhere. It invites all of your life. Up into what I'm thinking, feeling and doing and how it's all connected at my best and at my worst. And so, so that really, I really do credit like that Enneagram certification started this whole new chapter for me in realizing how I was wired and what I was good at. And, uh, after that came, uh, you know, more coaching opportunities outside of my main job. And then actually one of my Enneagram coaching engagements led to, uh, becoming the director of people and culture, uh, for a local company, uh, that cares for seniors, uh, here where I live in Western Michigan. And then, uh, along the way I started to go deeper into the coaching world. Uh, I have my ICF coaching, uh, certification. Uh, do some executive coaching with a firm based in Virginia that utilizes the Enneagram primarily with C suite leaders, which has been really interesting to learn how they use the Enneagram in that space. And I've been able to work with them along that way too. And then I currently serve as the director of training and culture for American House Senior Living. And I think about people leaders. And what is the culture of leadership and the culture of training? What tools do we use to help grow people? And often in my day job, where the Enneagram comes up right now is, you know, when there's conflict, often you have to go in and help people understand what's going on. And I always start with the people. And the Enneagram is one of the best ways to start with the people.

Beth 8:11

Yeah. So, like, walk us through that as an example. So, there, there's something going on. Maybe people are disgruntled or confused. Maybe they projected incorrectly. What do you do in that particular situation?

Joe 8:27

Yeah. So, What usually happens is it's either a whole team or an individual, and there's been some feedback. Sometimes that isn't the greatest. And I usually go in and go, you know, leaders. It's often leaders, people who are in charge of others. And, uh, leaders are, uh, leaders, uh, are hungry. They're driven. They go hard. And they may not always understand what is driving them to do the things that they do. And so my usually I walk in, With a very, like, what's going well for you? What, what do you, what do you know your natural strengths are as a leader? What are your weaknesses? What are your blind spots? And, uh, just kind of gimme the context of what's going on. And then I say, Hey, uh, to shape our conversation, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna have four conversations over the next six weeks. Usually. That's kind of how it works, uh, today. And I call that coaching light. That's a term that comes up, like coaching light is like, Hey, let's do four sessions and I'm gonna send you an assessment. And they do an assessment, and then I share the results with them, and we teach the Enneagram. We help them discover which is their type, so that they can have a better understanding of who they are, how they're experiencing themselves, and how others are also experiencing them. And then they start to see, like, you know, Oh, yeah, as a type one, I am, I'm pretty critical. And, you know, I'm also critical on myself, because I'm critical on others. And so it, what it does. The Enneagram provides language for us to talk about what we're thinking, what we're feeling, and what we're doing. And that's why it becomes so incredibly helpful as a

Beth 10:06

tool. Yeah. So let's say you've got that Type 1 and you've got a Type, let's say, 7. You know, that, that you're recognizing, okay, they've got... They got some issues flaring up. What would be some of the best tools or insights that you start with that you help to guide them?

Joe 10:29

Yeah, I would, you know, one, I would start with, okay, what, when are you at your best? Like what, what, what, what are you trying to achieve? What is particularly, and so I live in a health and kind of in the healthcare field now, and it actually attracts a lot of ones, which is really interesting because it's a very compliance driven, Industry, it's rules and regulations keep people alive, literally, and so they like, so they have this very like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom way of thinking about things. So I try to help them see like, okay, what's your natural way of thinking and then what's your natural way of being stressed out and what happens and how do others experience your stress. Well, how do you experience? And so the one in the seven, I know, I see what you did there with picking those two numbers and how they're connected. And so like the seven wants to have fun and they're driven, they're driven because they're actually avoiding something that might be difficult. And the one wants to do everything right, because they don't want to do anything wrong. And then, uh, if it's two people, you help them see how, uh, I always love to say How we as people think we're right and you know, the Enneagram helps us see us. Well, there's nine different ways to be right. That's

Beth 11:41

right.

Joe 11:44

And so it's like helping them see how they're driving a certain way towards certain objectives or initiatives or lead a certain style of leadership and how that is helping them. And how it may be getting in their own way.

Beth 11:58

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, cause like the, the seven and the one, you know, we want them to see how each of them can draw out the best of the other, but they can also do the complete opposite when they're stuck in their own ways. So, you know, the one is the reformer type, the do it right, you know, go by the book, have, you know, it has to be this way. And the seven is like, Oh my goodness, do not put me in constraints. Do not limit me. Do not restrict me. Don't tell me what to do. And those two could be like, like dynamite happening right there.

Ep. 197 Joe Graham 12:39

Oh,

Joe 12:39

well, and like the, the seven, like their stress path is to the one, right? So like the way the other person functions may be stressful to the seven. And then the one, like I actually, when I coached the type one, I invite them to be like, okay, what's the most absurd thing you can imagine yourself doing? Uh huh. And what's it look like, what's it feel like physically to dance at work? Or something ridiculous? Like, what's, I always ask him like, what's the type of exercise you can't imagine yourself doing? And someone will say like Zumba. And I'll be like, well, just imagine doing Zumba when you lead a meeting and how funny that would be to you just to kind of like bring your energy down and try to help them get to that playfulness of the set. Yeah.

Beth 13:24

Yeah. And, and it's, yeah, cause we want them to, to grow and expand and not be, to be so rigid in their own type. And that goes for all the types, you know, the more we're rigid in our own ways, the more we don't, we actually don't even realize that we're not in health. It's really when we open up our hands and our strategies and, and release this need to control. Even as a nine, you know, I'm trying to control that. There's peace and there's harmony, you know, um, but the more I try to get it actually, the worst things kind of pan out to be that net. Now, that doesn't mean that having peace and harmony are bad, but I can't always try to get it and control it in a very precise way. But the more I open up my heart and my mind to, um, Using the healthy ways of even the other types, especially the other types I'm connected to, there's more that can happen and unfold. There's more flexibility. There's more, um, receptivity, more curiosity, more creative. I said creativity. Um, there's

Joe 14:32

just so much more. There's more possible. Yeah. And so I tend to think about it too, like with team in a team setting, the, the, yeah.

Understanding Enneagram Triads

Joe 14:40

The triads are so important because you, you tend to rely on one more than the other two. And so people will be like, head, heart, gut. They're like, well, what about the other two? And I say, well, you have all three, but do you know which one you lean on? Which is your go to? And so like, you know, how I usually teach the triads these days is, you know, if we have a bunch of gut types. If we have three people in a room, one's gut, one's heart, one's head, and we have to make a decision that's going to impact the organization, the head type is going, well, what's the data tell us? What do we know about, what do we know about the research, past behaviors, best predictive indicator of future behavior? The heart type is asking, how are people going to feel about this decision? And then the gut people are like, can we just make a decision and do something? We'll figure it out once we do it. Yeah. Exactly. How those different, uh, those different triads show up in different ways when it comes to being on a team and in relationships, because we all have different sense of, uh, what we're, what we're perceiving when we were trying to make a decision or when we walk into a room. And then when we can recognize that, Oh, this person's going lean, leans on their feelings. This person leans on their gut. This person leans on their mind.

Beth 15:53

Yeah. And.

Personal Growth through the Enneagram

Beth 15:54

So for you, as a type five, you're in the head triad, thinking all the time, what was that like to discover that and kind of learn and grow from it so that others that are listening can kind of go, Oh, that's what he's talking about and understand the triads.

Joe 16:11

Yeah, I think for me, for being a five and I. I break, I've learned about myself. I break the mold of five because I am a social five, if we get into subtypes. And if you don't know what subtypes are, that means you need to learn more about the Enneagram because there's so many good things.

Beth 16:25

But really the social five, you're the counter type. So you don't, you're not the lookalike five. That's why you kind of looked like a three. Like, you know, it's like, no, you're not a five. Yeah.

Joe 16:34

Yeah. And so I think for me, it was, I tested really high as, uh, in the assessments and I've done like all the assessments cause I'm a five. I've tried all the different ones. And really high five and really high three. And I recognize three was more context and expectation in terms of like, be the achiever, uh, who, who gets everything done and, you know, takes the flag and wins, wins the competitions and all that stuff. But then what I've discussed, what I discovered was it really was competency. Not for the sake of others approval, but for my own self confidence. And so, I feel confident when I fully understand something. And so, and all the nuance to that. And so, when I started to realize that, it really, it really came down to, like, body language things. Where, like, you know, we say the head type experience life above their neck. And so there, uh, I heard a person on a panel discussion discussing what it was like to be a five and they said, it's like your brain is above the table in a meeting room and you're taking everything in, just observing, investigating, asking questions. Others may be experiencing you as aloof, like that you're not engaged. And so that really resonated with me because there's often a perception that I. I'm not paying attention when I'm actually paying very close attention, but because I'm so in my head, I don't unmoat at all, right? You don't unmoat in my body or in my, in my, in my feelings. And so, uh, and there's a whole nother reason for why I don't know, but what it did is it helped me go, Oh, I'm so in my head. Uh, if I leave everything that's in my head, it's actually going to take me out. Like anxiety and fear are going to run over and everybody will be worse off. And so when I started to learn that I was a five, it was like, Hey, there's really good stuff in my head. That's that other people actually want. And it's, I should, I should share it. And if I can just trust that I know it. Uh, just go. I had a really good friend. We did some Enneagram workshops at one of our churches and she was like, Joe, it's all in your head. Just get it out. Yeah, exactly.

Beth 18:48

Get it out. And the reason you're saying that is because the fives constantly feel they don't have enough information. Oh. When. In actuality, it's the complete opposite. Yeah.

Joe 19:00

Like Beth, I showed up to my first Enneagram workshop that I booked with like 10 hours of content. Yeah. And I needed, I needed two. Yeah.

Beth 19:11

I needed two. And the growth path for the five is to just get out there and do it. You know, like just, yeah, go to the eight, do it, assert yourself. Have the confidence that it will come. What is that like for you when you step into that space? Because I'm sure it's not like you step into it going, Oh, this feels great. This feels comfortable. It's like probably really hard, right?

Joe 19:35

It used to be. It used to be really hard. I have the blessing of being married to an eight. Oh, okay. So I don't know if we've ever talked about that, Beth, but, you know, so, but the Enneagram has been so helpful because we, you know, I'm, I'm the stress path, you know, but then at my best, um, I go to eight, you know, for me, the word I'll use is power and going with my gut, being outspoken, being direct, uh, It feels really powerful and almost overpowering and overbearing. And so sometimes what I noticed in myself is I had embraced my fiveness to a sense, and it actually made me more passive because I was, because I was afraid of power and afraid that I might be too direct or be a domineering leader. And, you know, we've, part of it is we've been around those types. Those leaders who just dominate control through, you know, through command. And so I was trying to be really cognizant of that. But then through the Enneagram and some other work that I've done, it was like, no, just go with it. Like, trust your gut and get out there. And so at first it felt like I was out there on an edge, like, But now, now that I've got practice at it, it actually feels better because what it is is like all that charge that you get through your body for, especially for the types that are more reserved. Once you actually say it, it feels great and it's, it's, and it's not as big of a conflict or contradiction or it's, it's not as big of a deal as you think. It would be because you're always, it's that future focused of what could, what could, what could. And then when you realize, like, if in the moment I just say what I'm thinking, it's actually like a release valve.

Beth 21:19

Yeah. And that's really what the eights, but for them, they're like, they can't not, you know, like it's, it feels like a fire in their belly that has to be expelled immediately. Um, And so, and obviously they have their own things to work on with that, but I think for the five to realize, okay, when I have that sense of wanting to communicate or needing to communicate to go ahead and do it. Um, and I agree, like, I love what you said is like, it was hard and I think there's anything like for each person, the first step of growth is super hard and scary. And you feel like. The floor is going to drop out from underneath you, all your worst fears are going to happen or, you know, who knows what, but, um, but when you do it and you see the amazing beauty that comes out of it, you want to try it again and then again and again, and then it becomes easier

Joe 22:15

to do. Yeah, and that's why coaching is so important because it goes often coaching, at least the way I think about coaching today is like someone got to hear, but they're trying to go to here, but they don't know how because they don't have the language to understand like what they're experiencing. And the Enneagram helps you go, okay, here's what I was thinking. Here's what I'm feeling. And here's what I did. And it's like, okay, well, let's diagnose that with language that the Enneagram provides us. And you can look at and discern what's, is that true or not true about who I am or, you know, what, uh, what my true identity

Beth 22:50

is. Well, and we don't always know or see what we're doing or experiencing. And that's why coaching is so helpful. And I mean, not just, I mean, obviously we're talking about Enneagram coaching, but if you even just think like right now, the world series is going on, well, those. Uh, players they've had, you know, batting coaches that have to really tell them, no, you don't understand you're, you're swinging this way. Like you think you're swinging it the right way, but you're not like, this is the better way for you. And it's the same with us. Like for me as a nine, I am so convinced on a regular basis that making people happy. Will make the world a better place in my world. Amazing, but I always stumble on the same thing. You cannot make people happy. And then I'm sad and, you know, whatever it is. And, but when I stop and recognize note. I don't need to make people happy and I have a coach and I have plenty of coaches in my life that my job isn't to make people happy. My job is to live out my life with truth and to voice what, what is that truth and to move in that direction one way or the other, like whether people like it or not, which feels so scary for nine. But when I do it,

Joe 24:07

what's it like to say, it's not my job to make other people happy. Like what's it feel when you say that?

Beth 24:14

There's so much. It's like this ambivalent feeling because there's parts of me that are like, yeah, preaching, you know, like that's right. And then there's parts of me like, you just said that, Oh my gosh. You know, like, so there's, and I think I love that question because if I don't recognize. What's happening within me, these competing parts, then I'm probably most of the time in going to be overwhelmed by the scared voices, because who wants to be scared? Who wants to live in fear? No one. So then I'm going to start using defensive mechanisms as an eye, which is again, people, pleasing tendencies, codependent tendencies, um, negating myself and

Joe 24:58

go along to get

Beth 24:59

along. Yeah. And then I just wind up in the same. Place. And I always tell people like I'm winding up in this ditch. Then I throw up my hands, like, how did I get here again? Well, it's because I wasn't paying attention or having like a coach in my life. That's, you know, lovingly and caring saying, Hey, let's talk about, you know, how this panned out or what was going on. Or why do you think you, you know, we're trying to make so and so happy, like what was going on behind the scenes, I probably wouldn't recognize. And give enough attention to when I'm veering off course, because we just don't realize it. Cause we're so used to doing that same thing, the same way, but having those coaches in my life, they've alerted me like, Hey, I know that you can't see this, but this is what's going on. Let's talk it through. And then usually, cause they give so much space for me to talk. Then I wake up going, Oh my gosh, you're so right. I didn't even See that I was going in that people pleasing direction and it can happen so subtly and by having that

Joe 26:06

nuance, it's all right.

Beth 26:08

Yeah. It's almost like I could trick myself into it. Like, well, you know, they, they need this because, or this is going to be helpful because, and I mean, obviously making people happy in this, in and of itself is not bad or wrong, but when, uh, it's my ultimate goal at the detriment of myself and others and what's actually needed. That is where the problem lies and it can get so foggy. So anyway, I think what's so helpful is, is what you were saying is having a coach to really highlight the things that we can't see in ourselves is what's so important

Joe 26:46

and the good and the good the deficit.

Coaching Leaders with the Enneagram

Beth 26:53

What's it like for you as a coach with C suites or, you know, leaders, what is that like when you highlight their strengths and their good? What, what does that do for

Joe 27:05

them? Yeah, well, what usually happens is they see the 5%. That isn't where they want it. And a lot of it is. Affirming what they're already really good at because knowing what you're good at is only how you go from like here to there. And so they, they, they may and then how others are experiencing them. And so I think helping leaders see that they've been celebrated in their career for solving problems. And finding solutions and getting things done, but then they get stuck. And so their new, their new autopilot or record player is they can't, they can't seem to break through to the next thing. And they don't realize that they're stuck, but because they haven't seen that they're like, what they're best at and what they're worst at are intertwined and they're connected. And so a lot of it is giving space for leaders to use the language of a tool like the Enneagram to discover themselves in a new and different way and recognize that it actually doesn't put a box around them, but like knowing, like for me, so knowing, knowing that I'm really good at strategy, planning, organizing, thinking about the future is incredibly helpful. And it's in some situations don't require any of those skills.

Beth 28:26

That's right. Yeah.

Joe 28:28

Yeah. And so it's like, okay, my natural solution is to develop a plan for how we're going to fix this, but like. That may not be what the room actually needs. And so, or yeah, and so, you know, but then it's also how you got into the jobs you're in. And so I think it's helping leaders see the deficit mentality and seeing how, you know, the, the strong, you know, when a simple metaphor is like. You know, you're really good at using a hammer, so, but then when, uh, the, the problem in front of you requires screws, you can try to put screws into a piece of wood, but it's not going to go well.

Beth 29:08

Yeah, that's right.

Joe 29:10

That's right. And so the Enneagram in some, some ways gives us, it's like, okay, what tool do I have in my hand for how I work and how I show up in the world? And then now that I know that, how can I best use it and not use it?

Beth 29:22

Yeah. And I think that's really good because, um, like even as I'm thinking about that.

The Enneagram and Personality Types: A Deeper Dive

Beth 29:27

My, my brain just kind of gets lights up with all different thoughts when you say that I'm such a metaphor type of person, but, um, you know, like, like the screw, if I have a hammer, like, let's say my type nine person, well, my type nine personality probably wouldn't be a hammer, but we'll just go with it. Um, But let's say, you know, the type one is the screw. Well, there's different, we use all nine types. And I think what people usually come to the Enneagram with is, well, I'm a nine. So I can't, you know, I guess I'm going to have to sit this one out. And it's like, no, you have all the resources within you. Some are easily accessible, you know, your Enneagram paths, some are a little bit less accessible, but they're all there. And so again, it's understanding as a nine, okay. I want to naturally just make everyone happy, and I want there to be ease and flow. But in this, uh, circumstance, That's not what's called for. That's not what's needed. And I'm going to have to step out of that comfort zone, or it feels like a comfort zone and do something different. And I can access this other part, this other quality that's in me and move into it. Uh, when, when you're working with people as an Enneagram coach, do you find that people resist that understanding or do they get excited that, Oh, you mean I don't have to. To be just this one type

Joe 30:54

it's freedom. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah. When, when, when you discover yourself in a new way and become more self aware, it's this, like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to describe it other than a moment of grace, like, Oh, I don't have to always strive for this thing that I think I have to always strive for. And so one, one times, sometimes I call the Enneagram your court. When you, when you discover your core type, it's discovering the paradox that you can't resolve. Yeah. That's right. Like, you know, as like a, as a type five, like the internet is the best and worst thing that ever happened. That's right. You know? And so it's, uh, I think there is this liberation and freedom that people experience and almost grace. And I always think about like, Hey, what would you have told yourself? What would you have told your 23 year old self if you knew this information about how you were wired? Yeah. And, or, you know, what, how would you approach that if your, if your child came to you at 23 and let's say they were a three, you know, and they lost a job, they lost their first job. Like, how would you respond to that? And I, you know, I do some, so I often go there, but I also think about like, um, I worked with, uh, I can't remember the type, but we, we, we created a prototype. Flawless Jenny was the name and like Flawless Jenny was really helpful. Yeah. And so by naming, like the, kind of the, the shadow side of like the type three or any type, really naming it like disarms it and you recognize like, yep, I, I see what you're saying, but that doesn't get to rule me. Yeah. That, that's where the, that's, that's actually not true.

Beth 32:48

Yeah.

The Enneagram and Career Pathways

Beth 32:50

What, now that you've moved, cause you've, you've, Taken different steps along the way in your own career, especially being an Enneagram coach. Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Where, where are you right now and where do you hope to like Mm-Hmm. kind of go?

Joe 33:04

Yeah. Great question. Uh, you know, I, uh, and it's connected to what I know about myself because, uh, from being a type five truthfully, and so I am, my dream is to be, uh, executive coach full-time. And I'm on that pathway. I do a lot of that in my day job, which is great. I get to work with leaders and for as the director of training and culture for American House. And then I'm able to maintain a small, a smaller client roster these days than I have in the past. So I have three to five leaders that I work with externally and in building my coaching practice in that way. And most of that's by referral at this point. And, uh, I would call it passive marketing. And so my, my dream and hope is to, is to jump towards it full time. But I also know myself as a five is I really value security. Yeah, right. Um, and I'm afraid of insecurity. And so that, that financial jump as the, one of the primary earners for our family is something I pay attention to. And so, um, I've continued to move into jobs that let me, have allowed me, um, to, to be an Enneagram coach kind of internally and use it as a leadership development tool. And so I'm really fortunate in that way, but because. Um, how exciting the work is to me. Eventually that's the space I plan to jump to. It's just a matter of time. And like to get real, like real tactical with it, like for a five, like part of me is like, I want to have six months of income saved before I make that jump. Because I know, I know, like right, coaching is really fun for me right now and there's not financial pressure on it necessarily. But if there was, I know what, what that does to me as a five, I, I withdraw, I go into my own head, I rewrite a new business plan in the middle of the night, you know, which doesn't help anybody. I'm not, you know, and so, uh, so those are things I just know about myself, but I've kind of set that trajectory out there. And, uh, also being aware of who I am as a five. Yeah. Well,

Beth 35:04

what is a

Joe 35:05

tendencies?

Beth 35:06

Yeah.

The Role of an Executive Enneagram Coach

Beth 35:07

Cause you know, some people may or may not even know, but what is an executive coach? Like how is that

Joe 35:11

different? Well, an executive coach, uh, I work with, I focus in on leaders and so, uh, in teams, leadership teams. And so helping leaders, uh, lead out of everything. Uh, that they bring to the table. And so really the, the proposition for coaching at the executive level is, are you getting everything out of the leader that you have asked them to do? And are they aware? Uh, self awareness is always self awareness is kind of trendy right now in a lot of spaces. And that's where I go. Yeah. If you're using like, Oh, I'm really self aware. That's usually like the, that's to me as a five, that's a warning sign of like, well, are you, what, what feelings do you experience? Yeah. You know, are you aware of your feelings? Are you aware of your thought patterns? And so, um, but being an executive coach is, is helping leaders, uh, be the best leader they can be and recognizing that their autopilot got them to hear. But it won't get them to where they need to go as a leader and the drive, the results that their organization has for them. They do need, uh, they need that. Uh, what a coach does is very similar to like, I think, Beth, these are your words that I've used a thousand times. The Enneagram is like a nonjudgmental friend who holds up a mirror.

The Impact of the Enneagram on Leadership and Team Management

Joe 36:23

And says, Hey, this, this is, this is what's happening, you know, and so, and I would say leaders need that because of the pressure they experience and in particular, the amount of uncertainty we've had to navigate over the last three, four years in every industry, every field, nonprofit for profit, corporate churches, like you're just so much is coming at you. And so as an, as a coach, as a leadership coach or executive coach, you really enter into the sacred space. of serving Kings and Queens. That's one of the ways I think about it is like, you're, I think you're a cup bearer, you know, so I think, you know, I'm a, you know, I went to seminary, I've got all that stuff in me at heart. And so, but like, you're a servant, and you're there to help. And, uh, and the Enneagram is a really good tool

Beth 37:08

to help. Yeah. Well, and I, what I love about the Enneagram, whether it's for execs or just anyone, is that it dials in what... People are already needing, but it's tailored to them. You know, it's not just, it's, it's, it's not just a blanket, you know, like, Oh, you should have a day planner. Okay. Well, guess what? There are probably nine different ways of doing a day planner. So as an executive coach, I can more specifically guide you in what that looks like for you or how to guide your. Your people from your strengths and your weaknesses. Like it's not just a generalized coach. Like we're getting very specific.

Joe 37:48

I was working with, uh, an executive leader who oversaw two different locations that were about 10 or 15 minutes apart. And this leader identified as a two. And the, was pretty overwhelmed and the great, because they were trying to be everything to everyone. Sure. You know, and, uh, always recognize how careful we have to be when we talk about twos, but like they don't want to say no, which means that, but they're not actually saying yes to anyone when they're saying, you know, when they never say no, they're actually never saying yes to themselves or others. And so like, one of the things we discovered was, Hey. What if, what if you published when you were going to be at both at each location, so they needed to physically be present at this office and then at this office for the operation, and it would always be like, well, you weren't here. And so you weren't here and then so imagine if the two here's you weren't here. Yes. Yeah. You know, and this how that can help them spiral. And I just said, Hey, you really want to be there for everybody. Uh, what would it look like if you just posted on your office door at both locations when you were going to be in? And then it was like game changer. They're like people like people and other leaders. Figuring out things on their own too, instead of always bringing it to the two who helps them figure everything out. They're like, Oh, so and so will be here tomorrow. And they may have resolved it by tomorrow. Yeah. And so this, that, like that, that, those subtle things. And that comes out of a conversation about how your personality functions. Yeah.

Beth 39:30

And that's why it's so important. To again, have a coach in your life that can highlight these things because for them, it's not like they weren't sitting around trying to think through how to make their life somewhat easier because we all want it a little bit less complex or harder or frustrated, or we're struggling, we're exhausted, you know, you name it, but we can't sometimes see it because it's like, we're just, we're in it. And so having you say, Hey, what about this?

Joe 39:58

Yeah. Or, yeah, or like, like with like the one I, we've, I think we've focused in on that probably because I've been working with all the ones lately is like, I go, Hey, when you come in, here's what people feel, you know, like you go in with this list of things we got to correct and make right. Did you walk around and say hi to everybody first? Yeah. Yeah. You know, and like, you're actually going to get more done if you do that than if you just get right into the, like making everything better.

Beth 40:28

Yeah. And that feels, I'm sure in, in them at the moment, contradictory, but then once they start doing it, they see amazing results. Like who would, who knew? Oh, well, yeah. Well,

Joe 40:40

like, yeah. Well, and like, you think about those like words, like I'll pick on myself since I've been picking on the one, like the five, the investigative. Thinker, like I can't know everything. And at a certain point you get fixated on the question of why I want to know why. And then I was, I saw this phrase, it was like, why doesn't matter. And you, you know, I cognitively know, I can't know

Beth 41:06

everything. Yeah. Well, and what's interesting, I got to tell you this story. So I interviewed a type five on one of our, um, podcasts. This has been a long time ago and he was telling me that his. And he's at least 65 anyway, he, his Evernote folders, he had 40,000 files. Mm-Hmm. And you like, see to you, you're like, well, yeah, like Beth, who doesn't have that, you know, like, and I'm like, you see my, yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, to other people that. Is like, how do you even get that many, have the time to get that many, let alone even know that they're there. Like for me, like, honestly, I don't even know what's in my Edward note. I haven't looked at it in a while, but if I would totally know what's in it, how to get to it. I don't resource anything all the time. And that's, what's so remarkable. But, and, but then again, that is also a drawback because, but I need

Joe 42:11

more, it's exhausting. Right. So that's some of what in coaching. I love, uh, to do with folks and feel so privileged to do it when they realize what's exhausting about themselves and can like start to like have some levity with it and kind of chuckle a little, you know. Like, I think that's, that's when you really start to have the breakthrough of like, Oh yeah, um, you know, I don't, I haven't seen this anywhere, but my guess is five, 10, fives tend to be hoarders and keepers of things and, you know, cause we'd think, well, what if we, you could use this again,

Beth 42:52

right. It's a resource. I need my resources. Yeah.

Joe 42:55

I need my resources and they give me, you know, they give me confidence. And so, and that's, that's where for me too, as a coach leader. You know, person really, uh, it's like, Hey, trust that, you know, everything you need to know for this and just go with your gut and get into your heart.

Beth 43:14

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's one thing that's so amazing. Like when we talk with fives and it does not in the moment feel true, but it's like, you need to get out of your mind and into your body. Go take a walk. Yes. Or some sort of exercise, whatever. Swim.

Joe 43:32

Go swim. Go get in water, is what I say.

Beth 43:34

Yes. Yeah. Swim. You know, walk, run, you know, like bike, you know, whatever it is, do something physical because it takes you out of that. Head space where your head's literally like out there and you're, you look aloof and it, it grounds you with your heart and your head together with the gut. Talk about that just for a second. Uh, what has that been like for you to experience that by stepping into activity?

The Importance of Physical Activity in Leadership

Joe 44:03

Oh, it's like the most important discipline for me is, is physical activity. I used to think it was. To get up and have my morning routine of like reading and reading and like spiritual disciplines and those things are those things are essential yeah, yeah, but the the the integration of Mindfulness into that too of like mindfully walking. Yeah, or You know and I go back and forth on this Do I listen to something when I go for a walk or do I not? And, uh, you know, a five, I don't need to, cause I'm going to have a lot of thoughts when I walk and a great conversation with myself. And then as my kids and wife went out, you're talking to yourself again? And I go, yep. And I'm talking back to myself because I am having, I am having this robust conversation, but yeah, getting, getting into my body, particularly for me as a, as a five is incredibly important and, uh, like be it. Uh, you know, yoga, swimming, just something physical, going for a walk. I think during the pandemic, I got way more into going for walks and I forgot how simple and easy and cheap that is and how healthy it is. And you know, you see data in research where it was like going for a walk is almost as good as going for a run, you know, in, in some ways. And so it's, uh, yeah, I think just being physical and. Uh, you know, and that's, I'll go back to this and maybe this is one of the themes of our conversation today, Beth. It's like, I know I'm going to think it through. Mm hmm. But have I felt my way through it? Yeah. And have I actually been present with it physically? Yeah. You know, and so those are, and so getting in touch with my emotions and getting in touch with and then going to action and not worrying about if I have all everything A through Z figured out. Uh, has been incredibly helpful for

Beth 45:55

me as I've, yeah. And I mean, I'm even just thinking for me as, you know, a nine when you were saying that, you know, when I need to speak to be assertive, to, to say what needs to be said, which can be very fearful for a nine, uh, well, what if it hurts someone? What if it's conflict? What if, you know, all, all the things, but, or like, what if they, what if they think I'm being mean, well, if I remember. Who I am like, okay, I'm a nine, like I am naturally warm and supportive and kind and peaceable, even when I speak up and say the hard things, then I can trust the overall ethos of my personality. The way my disposition and step into what kind of feels uncomfortable knowing that there's going to be this blend that's happening and a lot more health and, um, Yeah, directness

Joe 46:51

and clarity. And like, otherwise it's pat for the nine. Otherwise they experience you as passive aggressive,

Beth 46:58

right? Yes.

Joe 46:59

Which you don't want, but you don't want that. So like I said, the emotion is going to, the energy is going to go somewhere. Right. That's right. So, like, I can, I can either stress people out by not saying anything. And physically changing the environment, or I can just say what I'm thinking. Yeah. Which feels really uncomfortable to me at times, but actually it's better in the long

Beth 47:21

run. Yeah. Okay. So as an, as an executive Enneagram coach and leadership coach, um, I know that you are in our certified. Uh, coaches directory, which people can find you at my Graham coach. com. So Joe Graham. So just walk really, you know, as we kind of wrap up, tell us a little bit more about like, what is it like to sign up and to go through executive or leadership coaching? Um, and then anywhere that people can find you, that would be, you know, I mean, I said that they could find you at my, any Graham coach. com, but where else can they find you?

Joe 47:58

Yeah. Well, uh, yeah, go to the, the. The directory that you're already going to coach directory. Uh, I've had good business leads, some really good business leads actually come from that, which is, um, for people who are like, Hey, does this actually work? Yeah, it does. And, uh, at the speed for me, uh, it's been really good when I say passive marketing, that's a passive marketing investment that I've made that has. It's paid for itself. And then over every, every year I've been in it, it's paid for itself in the first quarter. So it's worth, it's worth that. Yeah. And cause it's for me, it's like passive marketing. Unfortunately, I am unreliable on social media, so I don't have many handles I can give you. I have some stuff out there, but, uh, you'll, you'll hear much from me. The best thing is to go to joegram. work. Email me there. Uh, I'm better at email. You know, as of five, you like pick your channels. Yep. You know, being available on social media. You can find me on LinkedIn as well, Joe Graham. Uh, and, uh, so yeah, what I'm, what I'm most excited about though with leaders is, uh, being a leader is a full contact sport. Mm-Hmm.

The Enneagram as a Tool for Personal and Professional Growth

Joe 49:04

And it is not getting any easier to lead the challenges we face for our churches, our businesses, our organizations, our communities are increasingly complex. And, and the way forward is, is good leadership. And we are at this also at this interesting moment where the, the hands of leadership are changing from a generation to generation. And as the, as the baby boomers move out of the workforce. You know the millennia by 2026, I think it is that there'll be more millennials in the workforce than baby boomers And so there's this massive shift And it's my belief that we've been stuck on certain leadership models To solve problems for a world that doesn't exist anymore. That's right. And uh, very uh, I have a very uh, Person centric approach to how I think about being a leader is being a person who knows what they're thinking that they're feeling and how they're showing up in the world with their actions. And so what I want to help leaders do is lead at the best possible way from all of those different dimensions of who they are so that we can do really meaningful work to make the world a better place. You know, and that, that, that feels cliche, but like. That's, that's what we are all about. And, um, I believe that's a very kingdom view of the world too. You think about complex problems where things are not black or white. It's not either, or, well, the same is true about you. You are not just this or that you, uh, you're not in a box. You're fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God. And you have so much to contribute. And what I get most excited about coaching leaders is I help people figure out how to make the greatest contribution to their professional life and their personal life. And that can have significant impact, uh, for so many people. And that's why I get up every day to coach and help people.

Beth 50:55

I think as a leader, having a coach is a non negotiable. I mean, cause like you said, it is so hard to be a leader in whether it's a small business or a large business, all of it is hard and. I 100 percent agree. The more we can understand ourselves and love well, like love our team, love our customers well. Love ourselves. Love ourselves

Joe 51:26

well. A lot of leaders, a lot of leaders are driven from their own personal pain and some of these tools that come through coaching and like the Enneagram assessment help you discover where that pain comes from and it doesn't necessarily go away, but it helps you confront it.

Beth 51:40

Right. Yeah. And to get healthier. Um, so anyway, I, I really do. I hope that people, um, go to joegram. org or you can go to my Enneagram coach. com and he's in both places. Uh, Joe, it's been such a joy to, you know, just have you as a friend. Um, I thank you so much for going through the course and just taking it, taking the training and, it. You know, multiplying what you learned to bless others. Like that's the goal. You know, we just want to see the ripple effect in other people's lives and you have done that. And then some. So thank you so much for just being that inspiration. And um, yeah. So everyone go get in contact with Joe Graham dot work. Thanks Joe. Thanks Beth. Well, I hope that this conversation with Joe Graham was really helpful for you guys today. Hearing from a type five, who is the counter type five, he's the social type five. If you know the instinctual subtypes, just to see. What an Enneagram executive coach looks like, how to help people, uh, with where they're at in their business and their leadership and how to help their company. There are coaches out there that can dial in for you, coaching techniques and insights that are just for you. And that is so important. Well, if you would love to have someone like Joe Graham, um, in your corner to help you, Then you can go to my Enneagram coach. com and all of our certified coaches are in that directory. And you can find one that fits you best. You can also go to joegram. work and sign up with Joe as well. But if you're like. Man, I would love to do that. I would love to do what Joe's doing, or I'd love to be an Enneagram coach. Then get our free mini course to try it out, to see what it's like at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. We are delighted to show you all the different tools and the ways to become your best self, become a coach, or to help others to become their best selves. Now, remember. The Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it is the gospel that transforms us. I'll see you next week in your Enneagram coach, the podcast. Thanks for joining us.