Introduction

Beth 1:11

Hey everyone, welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast, I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach. And at YEC, we desire for you to use the Enneagram so that you can have real and lasting transformation in your life and in your relationships. But we're also deeply committed to training and raising up the next generation of amazing Enneagram coaches. Now each episode, what we're doing is we're interviewing. An amazing guest, but we're also incorporating Enneagram coaching in our conversation so that you can really see how transformative the Enneagram can be when you have a coach. So for those of you that really love Enneagram and you're an Enneagram enthusiast, you think, huh, I'm kind of interested in maybe being an Enneagram coach. Then we suggest that you take our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com. Forward slash mini course, but not everybody's in that place. Perfectly fine. But we highly encourage you to get your own Enneagram coach, whether it's for yourself, your marriage, your family, uh, maybe your business. And to do that, we've got many awesome certified Enneagram coaches through our certification program, and you can get yours at my Enneagram coach. com. Again, that's my Enneagram coach. com.

Introducing Special Guest: Chuck DeGroat

Beth 2:28

Well, today we have a very special guest and I can't wait for you guys to meet him. He's actually been on our show once or twice, but I really just wanted to dive in and talk to him once again, because he's just a wealth of information. And this is Chuck DeGroat. And Chuck has been married, uh, to Sarah for 29 years and has two amazing daughters. Um, he holds the position of professor of counseling and Christian spirituality, as well as the role of executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. Additionally, he serves as the faculty member for Soul Care Institute. Chuck is a licensed therapist, a spiritual director, and the author of five books. He's also an accomplished retreat leader and a sought after speaker. His therapeutic experience lies in the areas such as abuse and trauma, pastoral and leadership, well being, and guiding individuals through tough times of doubt and spiritual darkness in their faith journey. Chuck is also recognized as a minister of the word in sacrament in the reformed church in America, having previously served as the pastor in Orlando and in San Francisco, which is where I was born. Uh, his focus has shifted into training and equipping pastors, including specialized training in issues of abuse and trauma. conducts pastor and planter assessments, leads church consultations and oversees investigations related to pastoral misconduct and congregational issues. So as you can see, man, he has a wealth of information and experience, which is why I can't wait to dive in and talk to him today. So let me bring him on Chuck. It's so great to have you on the podcast today.

Chuck 4:19

It's great to be here. Thanks for calling me special earlier. I mean, that's, that's a great place to start.

Beth 4:26

Yes. That's so funny. Yeah. So Chuck is a type four and of course he is special and unique to me. And here's how like special and unique you are to me is so we met probably, let me think about it, 2014, 15, and that kind of area. Um, we were going through some really rocky times with Jeff's position, um, at a local church. And I was reading your book, toughest people to love. And when I was reading it, I was like, Oh, my word. This is what we're going through. And I need some more advice. Cause we didn't have anyone in our circles to really help guide us or give us any direction or insight. So I contacted you and you were like, yeah, sure. Let's, let's talk. And so the three of us talked and you gave so much helpful information, um, that we needed in that particular season. You were so gracious with your time. Um, so I just really want to thank you for one, your book and books, um, but particularly that book, because of the trajectory that it put Jeff and I on, we wouldn't have been in as much of a healthy spot as we are today, because, you know, Jeff being a type six and a loyalist, he probably would have tried to stay put where he was, and you just gave some really clear advice on That that was not a good decision to make and that gave him kind of the confidence and the go ahead to move on and to heal from that experience. So thank you so much for your time in that.

Chuck 5:56

Yeah, I'm so glad we stayed connected over the years and so grateful. So proud of you guys. Look at what you've done. It's. Incredible. So, yeah, it was courageous of you to step away and to step into this new thing, which is not so new anymore,

Beth 6:12

right? Yeah, it was. It was new back when I started in 2016. And now it seems like so many people love the Enneagram, which I obviously totally understand. Um, with

Chuck's Contribution to the Enneagram Community

Beth 6:22

that. So you've written five books, but even one of those books, you incorporated the Enneagram into it. Can you share which book that is and what it's about? Yeah.

Chuck 6:30

Yeah. So that that's a book called When Narcissism Comes to Church. And, uh, you know, what's interesting about that is, uh, I looked back at, at how I was using the Enneagram a long time ago, going back to my, my early years in ministry and, and, My early introduction to the Enneagram, uh, in terms of it's my understanding of the levels of development and pathology when it comes to the Enneagram. And I looked at some Enneagram folks and, and how they understood narcissism. Uh, Naranjo sees it in the sevens and others see it in other numbers, but I, I really. I started to see narcissism in and through all nine types and wanted to share how that shows up and more at times more grandiose narcissism at times more, you know, covert narcissism. And so it was a fun little experiment. Uh, and I, and I named that going in that this was something that I'd, I'd used personally and I'd, I'd vetted with others. But at the same time I was, I was putting my ideas out there, uh, and, and, uh, it's been well received. I'm thankful for that.

Beth 7:34

Yeah, and I think that's and when we talk about. People will say, Oh, well, can this be true for this type of that type? And I'm like, all nine types can do things, certain things. It's just, they're going to do it differently or have a different perspective. And so I appreciate that. Now, of course, as a type nine, I'm like, what us type nines can be a narcissist. And then I'm like, okay, yeah, I can totally see how it just looks. Right.

Chuck 7:58

Yeah, right. Right. Yeah.

Beth 8:01

Looks so different. We, we could fly under the radar, right? Like, we're not thinking about ourselves, but me literally avoiding conflict all the time and people pleasing is a way to take care of myself and focus on myself. Yeah. Um, and sometimes in good ways, but then if it go, gets unhealthy, um, it's just in a self preservation mode, not necessarily doing it for the betterment of, you know, those around me. So, um. But yeah, it totally looks different. Um, and all nine types now. So you wrote that book.

Chuck's New Book and Its Impact

Beth 8:33

Now you have just finished the manuscript of a new book that's coming out in fall of 2024. And what is that about?

Chuck 8:43

Yeah. So after writing the narcissism book, I, in some ways I thought I was done. Um, Who wants to hear from a, uh, middle aged white guy in his early fifties, right? Uh, but I was encouraged. Well, good. Thank you for that. I mean, I was encouraged by a publisher to, to re engage and, and part of it was to, to shift the conversation from What happens to you to what happens within you in the midst of the pain, the hurt, the abuse that that you experience in life. Uh, some have said trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens within you. And so, in a sense, I shift to, uh, the conversation that we have to have within us. But I take an angle that is born out of work I've done in Genesis three and the three questions that God asks in Genesis. Three, which I find to be really compassionate and really curious. Where are you? Which gets at how we show up, how we're hiding, um, where we are, uh, from a place of connection to disconnection. Who told you? In other words, what's the story you're listening to? Uh, who's been whispering in your ear. And then that third question, have you eaten from the tree? I translate is where have you taken your hunger and your thirst? Uh, and, and that requires us to look at all the very many ways we're self satisfied, right? That we go about healing our own wounds and self soothing when God longs to care for us. And so I'm hoping it'll be a helpful book, a healing book for people who need to shift from from that focus. You and I experienced some similar things. I mean, I went through a very self satisfied, right? difficult time in ministry more than 20 years ago now, where I harped on what happened to me. I couldn't stop thinking about all the bad things that happened to me and how I get justice. And I had to transition. And it took about six or seven years until a therapist said We're not going to talk about all that. We're going to talk about how, you know, the imprint of the wound within you, um, and, and how it feels today. And that's when I started doing the healing work. And so I'm excited about it. Thanks for asking.

Beth 10:53

Yeah, no, I'm really excited about it because, um, so I've been also learning a lot about CPTSD, uh, kind of goes back to, uh, for me being teased a lot by my older brother and just starting to unpack all of that. Um, he and I have a great relationship. I mean, he's a fabulous. But hey, you know, that was hard when I was growing up. Um, but as I, you know, been kind of unpacking that, I remember, um, listening to someone and just exactly what you were saying, it's the person was talking about like, Parenting. And if your kids go through some traumatic experience, it's more about them being able to share and unpack, um, what's going on within them than the actual experience. And the more they have the ability and the safe place in the ear to hear, the more they're going to be able to process through that trauma versus it being traumatic.

Chuck 11:46

Yeah, it's all about, uh, having someone bear witness to what you've been through. Um, Bonnie Bainock says trauma is not events. It's being alone in those events. And so it's, it's not, again, it's not what happened to you. It's your sense of aloneness in the midst of that. And so, you know, if, if you go through a hard thing and you have someone show up, ask good questions, pay attention, um, that that's profoundly important.

Beth 12:14

Not trying to fix, right? Not trying to guide or steer just being there. Is that what you're kind of saying? Yeah.

Chuck 12:20

Yeah. You don't have to be a licensed therapist. You just have to be a kind friend, a compassionate conversation partner. You know, someone who, I tell the story in the book of, of, uh, people who go through, let's say a massive hurricane, lose their home and, and, uh, end up a home of someone else who's able to sort of sit with them and let them cry and grieve and be seen in that versus someone who goes to a hotel and isolates, uh, and numbs, you know, numbs the pain through substances or whatever else, uh, one, one may come out. stressed and hurting. The other one will come out with trauma. And so we do have some control over when these things do happen to us, some control over how, how we go about attending to what's happening within and healing what's happening within. And so that that's what I discerned to be the next book and the next at least attempt to be helpful. But I have to share. So Yeah.

Beth 13:16

Oh, that's great. Um, okay. So, Hey, let's dive into your Enneagram story and that journey. So you discovered the Enneagram back in like 1997. So like this is way before it was popular. Um, and it sounded like you discovered pretty quickly that you were a type four, but you also were like, but I don't know this type one thing that I resonate with it. So walk me through that experience and what was the aha moment in where you actually

Chuck's Personal Enneagram Journey

Beth 13:43

landed?

Chuck 13:44

All right. Yeah, so, so it was, uh, yeah, it was back in the late 90s. It was through the, uh, through some of Richard Rohr's work, I think, um, originally that, that I, I got into it and found it fascinating and, and I was a licensed therapist too. And so I was connecting it to some of that. Um, understanding some of the different lenses for psychopathology through the Enneagram. And so, uh, and ended up teaching a course, uh, down at a seminary that I went to, uh, and ended up teaching it on vocational counseling where I was using the Enneagram. And you know this, back then there were just so, there were a few tools. Uh, and, And there's really no coaching at the time. And so I was, uh, self taught in it. Basically, uh, I'd go to small used bookstores and I'd find books by, uh, Suzanne Zurcher or Don Richard Riso or Helen Palmer or all the, you know, sort of, sort of the old names of the Enneagram and just devour them. But, and for, yeah, very early on for me, for resonated, I think. a basic sense of feeling missed, misunderstood, unseen, uh, a deep sense of not enoughness, uh, so that playing out that sense of envy, always looking at others with this sense of how come they have everything that I don't have feeling like, um, and I think someone in the Enneagram world once said this a long time ago, but it. always resonated, but feeling like I never got the instruction manual of life. I was missing something that others had information that I'd never been let in on. And so it was really helpful in my early self understanding. It was a friend of mine in probably 10, 11, 12 years after that, who Uh, was observing me and I think probably more observing behavior, uh, rather than, you know, my heart, you know, my motivations and said, you know, you're a reformer. You're, you know, you're always wanting to change systems. There's a, there's a sense in which you can see what the right way is, what should happen. And she was very, very certain I was a one and she had gotten into her own study of the Enneagram. And so my policy with this has been, if someone feels that I'm going to try that on for size, Uh, someone else years later suggested that I might be a six. Okay, I'll try that on for size. I'll take six weeks, couple of months and just ask myself questions. Look at my life story through that lens. But I lived in in oneness even for a few years, and it just never really felt like home. Although there are aspects of, uh, you know, type one that Made some sense. So anyway, uh, yeah, four, four feels like home. Um, although, you know, I, I, I can dance a bit in some of the other spaces and places and then, and then we were all waiting for Beatrice chestnut stuff back in, in the Bay area, back in 2012, 2011, 2012, you know, she was beginning to teach, but she hadn't written, uh, I think it was what the complete Enneagram and waiting on her work on the subtypes, which is really going to. You know, uh, tease out neuron host stuff. And, and, uh, that, that became really helpful to sort of home in on self pres is my subtype. And so we can talk about that more. You know, way more about this stuff than I know enough to be dangerous, to be honest.

Beth 17:09

No, that's great. Yeah. And so for those out there, there is, um, so many layers to the Enneagram. Um, I think the gift that I bring to the Enneagram world is I make this complex system easy to understand. And. The main reason is I just want people to be able to use it quickly. You know, some people love to geek out and go, you know, into all of the nuances, which is great. I do too, but not everybody does. They really want to use this as transformation. Um, so one of the layers is the instinctual subtypes and that is where. You have, we all use all three, but one reigns supreme, and then one is like second place, and then the last one we use the least, um, but there's self preservation, uh, social, and one to one, and some teachers call it sexual, because it's about intimacy, not so much intimacy as in like a, um, an actual, like, sexual relationship as more into chemistry, like feeling connected with someone. Um, so the actual, the instinctual subtypes come first. Um, so if you think about, um, the instincts, um, as being, uh, the light switch in a room and your personality is the wiring, the light switch gets turned on and then the personality goes. So. Again, there's self preservation. These are people that are predominantly more focused on their self preservation. It could be, uh, their time management, their food resources, their health, you know, all of those kinds of things. The social is more of the people that are really kind of focusing on, let's say, like the herd mentality. Like, hey, I want to know who's in my group and we're going to like, we're going to get through life together. And so they're really kind of thinking of this kind of more group mentality. And then the one to one is like, Hey, you and me, we're, we're going to get through this life together. And that's kind of like your mallard duck per se, you know, like we're, we're in this for a lifetime. And that's me. I, that's my main subtype. So it's like, Jeff, you and me, we're in this for a lifetime. And, and that's actually his too. So we're very, we're good and not good. We're very. focused on each other. Um, but the, but what's interesting is that in each of the types, one of these is what they call the counter type. Um, now it's not, not all self preservation is a counter type or social it's different with each of the types. So you have to go learn about it, go to Beatrice Chestnut's book or some of her podcasts that she has done. She'll kind of tell you all about it. Um, but for yours. In particular, the type four, uh, you resonate more with the self preservation four. Now again, you use the social and you use the one to one, but just at a different, in a different way and not as much, but the self preservation four is the counter type. So basically it's the type that doesn't look like a four. You don't always feel like a four. In fact, the, uh, self preservation four is the look alike to type one. And so when you said that you Kind of vacillated between those two. I'm like, totally makes sense. So the, the self preservation subtype of, um, four is called tenacity. So what's interesting is that this, uh, type four, again, like when you're reading about the type four, let's say the stereotypical type four, you see more of a person that emotes a lot, has, has wide range of emotions, but everyone else can kind of see or feel. Those emotions, but the self preservation for is actually kind of the opposite. They tend to not wear their emotions on their sleeves as much. They're very attuned to their emotions and they do have highs and lows and they're very self aware. They tend to hold. And so this is where a lot of people, like you said, your friend was observing you, your behaviors on the outside. It looked very one ish, but actually what was going on internally, your core motivations were still for, um, And that's why it's so important for everyone to go back to those core motivations when you're typing yourself or helping someone else find their type, because again, behaviors can give us indications, but it isn't the full picture. Um, and so for you as a self preservation for my guess is you've kind of grown up all your life, having a wide range of emotions, but A lot of people not knowing it and then maybe being surprised when they do kind of pop up and probably shut you down because you're not playing your typical role. And so it's kind of like, Hey, don't be too much with those emotions. And so then it's kind of like, Hey, okay. The message I'm getting is I'm too much. And then another message for the four is I'm not enough. And so therefore you feel misunderstood. Is there something wrong with me? Cause I'm feeling all these emotions, but no one's really wanting to accept them. Is this kind of paint a picture for

Chuck 21:57

you? Yeah. And that, that conflict within that you're naming too, between I'm too much and I'm not enough, I think is an important one for, for most fours. Right. But, um, for the self press for in particular. And I think probably, uh, for most of us who identify as self prez, there's some story of, of, uh, there was a lot going on. I was feeling a lot within, but I didn't have permission to feel that, uh, uh, within the care of others. And that was the case for me. There, there was a sense in which, uh, my mom and dad didn't hold space for those, that wide range of emotions that you're describing. Right. And so it sort of had to muffle it. Um, some people call, uh, self press for is the long suffering for us. And that word made a lot of sense to me, like just this sense of, of, I just got to hold the pain. Uh, and so there's a deep sense of sort of, um, yeah. capped frustration, you know, and, and, but on the outside, what's, what can be, and I'm, I'm curious if this is what you see when you see people like me, what's a bit paradoxical is I can come off as kind of funny or lighthearted. Um, I grew up on Long Island during the, you know, but maybe pre Seinfeld days, but like a, a kind of Long Island, New York sense of humor. And then, and then people See this other side of me, which is very, very serious and very emotional and very deep and they're like, who, who are you? I don't know what to do with these two sides of you But it's very much the sense of there's a survivor Side of me that was funny and light and learned to get along in a in sort of a tough world a tough Long Island world especially for a male who is a bit more sensitive so Yeah. Is that what you typically see, Beth?

Beth 23:47

Yeah, actually a lot of self preservation force. So on one side there, it looked like to one. So, um, again, the tenacity holding things in type ones will repress their, you know, emotions of, especially like anger or anything that they feel is inappropriate in their mind or wrong. Um, so a four can kind of give off that similar vibe, but at the same time, what's really interesting is a lot of self preservation force can look like sevens. Hmm. And it, 'cause they, they, they tend to put off this kind of sunny disposition around others. Now, maybe not so much in the home. They're much more, probably feel more comfortable. Yeah. But around others. Again, it's another survival strategy, whether they're cognizant of it or not. And it's not that it's bad or right, or or wrong, it's just. They learned, Hey, I, I can't show all of my cards, especially the negative ones. So I'm going to show the other cards I have, which are the positive ones. Cause I usually get a better response from that. And so that's then kind of played out through life. So I have several people and particularly one really dear friend, um, who is a four, but if you were around her without knowing her, you would definitely think she was a seven.

Chuck 25:03

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's a new connection to me, that seven piece. And yet, as soon as you said it, there was a sense of, Oh yeah, of course. Um, now, now there's no way in my own spirit, I feel quite as light as seven seemed to feel. Right. But, but it's. It kind of looks like that. And, and so people are like, wow, he's, he's, he's sort of a contradiction. And I wonder, you know, I, I wonder about that, that sense of contradiction because, you know, in some of my writing, I talk about, um, the contradictions of the narcissist, right? The Jekyll and Hyde. And I've, I've had to be really attuned and attentive to that, even in my leadership, you know, like how do people experience me? It's a question that I ask a lot as, as I lead people. Um, but in, in my. Family life to how do you experience me? Because there's a range that can go from kind of brooding and moody to light and, um, nothing, nothing really matters. Let's just have fun, right? And that's I I'm I'm sure. Well, I've been told that could be really, uh, uh, confusing for people.

Beth 26:09

Yeah. And I think what's interesting is, you know, kind of when you unpack Personalities, it can feel at times like, am I not being authentic and real when I'm this way or if I'm that way, I think it can all be authentic and real and at the same time, it can also be a coping mechanism, a strategy. Just depending on really where we're at in the current moment. So there's going to be times where you're doing really well, you know, and you're, you know, feeling really healthy. You feel very secure. You're very in tune with yourself and you're fun, you know, and you're lighthearted. But there's also going to be times where when you're not doing as well, you're recognizing the situation at hand, that it's not safe to display what's really going on and you know that this has worked and so it doesn't mean that in itself is wrong. It's just another tool that you have learned over the years to use. I do think it's, and I think you would agree. I do think it's important for us to know why it's coming up, you know, like, and what's going on. Like, am I doing well? Oh, great. Or I'm not doing so well and this isn't the. person or the place to even unpack that or change it, but I want to take note and maybe like talk with that coach or counselor or friend, whoever I have on my team, so to speak, um, to really process. I can tell I didn't feel safe in that situation. And do I need to unpack that some more? So I think that we, I think part Your ability to be lighthearted in moments is a both and and it's a gift. Um, and a strategy. So does that kind of resonate? Make

Chuck 27:51

sense? Yeah, that's good. And you know, that's that's really freeing. There's something about that that I think I knew at some level. But again, hearing you say it out loud, there's something about that. That's Yeah, freeing. Because I think there's also a need for integrity Uh, in me and, and, um, I, I did think for a while it's got to be one or the other, like my true self, right? Quote, unquote, right. Um, must either be kind of serious and poetic or, you know, light and funny. And, and, and most of the time I think I've dismissed my lighter, funnier side as. Avoidant or a persona of some kind. Right. And just recognizing that there's, there's space for, for all of this, the fullness of, of, um, this wide range of, of Enneagram fourness and particularly the self press. So, yeah, what you said is, is, is kind of freeing actually. Yeah,

Beth 28:42

exactly. Um, and I think that's really great. Cause like, for instance, when I'm on the podcast or I'm speaking on stage, it, in some ways. It's very different than who I am when I'm just hanging out with my family. Like I'm not this lively and vivacious, you know, just hanging out with my family. Cause a lot of people go, are you sure you're a nine? You know, like when I'm on stage or I'm on the podcast and I'm like, Oh yes, trust me, I'm a nine. I know that, you know, I look very social, but I'm actually, I wouldn't say super introverted, but I am more introverted than extroverted. Um, and so I wrestled with it too. I was like, is there, Is there something like, am I, am I not showing up as my true self when I'm doing these things? And actually I feel almost more true to who I am when I'm on the podcast and speaking in front of people or teaching. Um, and so I asked, um, Patsy Claremont, she was kind of coaching me when I was beginning to speak. Um, and she's a four and. When she's at home, she's very four ish, you know, but when you see her on the stage, she is so funny, like so funny. So a lot of people would think that she's a seven. I was just asking her about it and she said, Beth, that is me and who I am at home is me. So what I learned from Patsy is that, you know, who I am on stage and who I am at home. Those are both me. What I need to focus more on this is actually, you know, what we write in our books and pretty much everything I do. The biggest thing is recognizing, am I in a healthy place, an autopilot or average place or an unhealthy place? And the Enneagram is so great at helping us to recognize what's going on under the hood, so to speak. And when I'm struggling the problem, I think, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well, just being a counselor, professional. Professor of counseling is most of us, especially when we're reading the Enneagram, when we read about our type, we hone in on the worst parts of us. And we just are like, see, I'm unhealthy or see I'm under stress or this. And then we just want to. Pack or belittle ourselves or shame ourselves or go get help. And of course, we all should go get help when we need help. But do you find that people really kind of hone in and fixate on maybe the less healthy aspects of them and think it's actually bigger or worse than maybe what it is? What is your thoughts?

Chuck 31:03

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's interesting with the Enneagram, right? Because, um, uh, some people see it as any other kind of personality test, you know, where they, they, they want to home in on, on the positives. Um, and I do think that the great, um, benefit of the Enneagram is it, is it allows us to, to see that range. I think it was, I mean, early on for me, I think it was Riso and Hudson's levels of development, you know, those nine levels that allowed me to see, okay, There's this range of health to unhealth that, uh, as a four, um, I, I sort of fit within this particular range and I can see myself on my least healthy days operating kind of down here at a, maybe a five. Um, and on my most healthy days at like a two or three off. Maybe not all the way up to a one, but, but that's one of the advantages, I think, of the enneagram, right? Um, yeah, I don't know if I answered your question,

Beth 31:57

if that's quite right, but yeah, so I feel like so a lot of the work that we do is I definitely want people to be very aware of the reality of where they're currently at. So, hey, if you're like, again, you said there was nine levels of health, one being the healthiest nine being very unhealthy, pathological,

Understanding the Enneagram and Its Role in Self-Perception

Beth 32:17

unhealthy. Um, yeah. I want people to be in reality of where they're at, but I guess this comes more from a coaching perspective. So I'll let you speak from a counseling perspective is I want them to know that there's. always hope and a path of growth or a path of getting help. Um, and a lot of that is just self work or understanding themselves better, moving towards those healthy dynamics and aspects. And of course, then if we bring in the gospel, it's really believing and trusting their identity in Christ and having the Holy spirit work in and through them. But it's usually. I would say paired with again, a coach, a spiritual director, a counselor, depending on the level of need and what the need is. Um, but I think that to me, it's so important for people to understand the level of health they're at. So for instance, like you were saying, Hey, you know, like this seven light quality that I bring, is that like, Normal or what? It's like, yeah, it totally is normal. And it can be a very healthy thing for a self preservation for if you were in that space. And it can also be a coping strategy if you're not doing so well. But again, I think the biggest thing I want for people to recognize is it's we don't need to use it as a tool of shame. We want to use it as a tool of awareness and to then go get The correct help or guidance that we need to then move in the healthier direction. Yeah, I think that's really what I would be saying.

Chuck 33:45

Yeah.

The Importance of Recognizing Your Level of Health

Chuck 33:46

Yeah. That's good. Yeah. And then I think from a sort of a counseling perspective, it's interesting because I think one of the most helpful things about the Enneagram early on is it helps make sense out of your story. Mm-Hmm. And so for me to experience that sense of feeling misunderstood or not enough, um, sort of grasping for that enoughness, um, the need to be seen, the need to be special. seeing things and other people that I, I felt like I was missing in me and, and craving those things. The, the Enneagram was able to sort of identify that the fourness was able to sort of identify that. Um, and then, you know, I didn't know what the word equanimity meant when I, You know, when I first started learning about the paths of growth, you know, so I go from a four to a one, what does that mean? Do I need to be more perfect, more right? Like what? And by the way, I'm going to, I want to give you space to address that. Like, what does that mean? But, uh, as a therapist, I began to see, and this has really helped. Me in the last 10 years or so, that there was a kind of dysregulation, an autonomic nervous system dysregulation that existed within me, uh, for years and years and years. And the movement to the one, at least for me, uh, one of the lenses became a movement from dysregulation to regulation, to soothing, to a sense of that homeness in my own body. Where from that place I could recognize my emotions, but not become my emotions, you know? And so I could speak on behalf of my emotions. From a place of calm, center, uh, and, and I wonder if that corresponds with your understanding of a movement from a four to a one or

The Journey of Self-Understanding and Emotional Regulation

Chuck 35:26

equanimity, uh, et cetera. Yeah.

Beth 35:28

And just to be very clear, cause I'm going to say something and people are going to try to like hone in on it or grab it. I do not believe Jesus was one of the nine personality types. He is Jesus Christ. You know, he is God, you know, almighty. Though he does demonstrate all nine aspects and, and behaviors and tendencies, and he gives us examples of what each of the nine types can represent in the healthiest form. So when we look at his emotional. Um, expression, he is very expressive of his emotions, highs, lows, you know, his temper in the, in the temple. Um, I mean, it's so amazing, Chuck, you know, here he is, he knows exactly what's going on, what's going to happen. He goes to the tomb of Lazarus. And, you know, everyone is just falling apart, which they should, you would think you'd be like, Hey guys, I mean, as a nine, I would have been like, Hey guys, it's fine. Like, it's going to be good. Like, don't be sad, you know, but he allowed people to express themselves even to the point where he was fully expressing his sorrow and sadness of the situation. And yet he knew he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead. So he demonstrates understanding. Highs and lows and expressing them and being in that moment is important. But then you get even into the garden of Gethsemane. I mean, what a beautiful moment. He was deep in distress to the point where he's, you know, shedding blood when he's sweating. So he's under such distress, but yet still perfect. And so what you see is this person having equanimity, meaning emotional regulation. What that means is it's not negating the emotions. It's not pushing them aside or suppressing them. It is living through them, but with a full understanding and a healthy way of what you need to do with that. And so here he is, he's crying out to his father. Hey, if you can take this cup from me, please do. And I will follow your will. And so I think he demonstrates such a beautiful aspect of what. What equanimity is. Um, and so obviously we all need to follow that footstep. I think that's a great picture for the type four of what it looks like, because I think when type four is usually here, equanimity. Um, emotional balance typically, because I think the world says this to them is, Oh, that means you need to get rid of your emotions. That's right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. No, don't, don't get rid of your emotions. They're beautiful. They're, they're needed. We need that, that beautiful representation, the creativity, really just the word beauty. Encapsulates to me the four is, and beauty is a wide range of things, right? You know? Um, and so I would say, you know, for the fours have your emotions, but also when you move to that type one, the healthy type one, what does it look like to be able to be grounded and principled and in a sense, still. Um, or in reality while also experiencing your emotions because a lot of times for fours, they're gonna go off into some sort of fantasy imagination. It's gonna pull them out of reality and they start to believe that that is actually what's really happening. So it's important. It's for the four to recognize. Okay, wait. I don't want to get into imagination. I don't want to get into what could be, but what is actually happening now and how can I feel and work through that? Does that resonate? Does that make

Chuck 39:09

sense? Yeah, that makes sense. And, and, um, not losing yourself in fantasy. I mean, really, really resonates, particularly for a younger me that, uh, because the present was probably too painful in some ways for fours. Um, and so, uh, yeah, it's a way to escape. That's really

Beth 39:30

good. I would love to hear from you, being a male four, and I think you had said, uh, being an HSP, highly sensitive person. Can you. Walk us through, because I'm sure there's a lot of young men out there, and this kind of falls into the category of type twos and probably type fours more than any of the other types. Not that the other types can't feel this way, but as a man who is highly sensitive, can you just unpack what it's meant for you to learn about being a four and a highly sensitive person? And then what have you, how have you used that information for your own personal self growth?

Chuck 40:04

Yeah. Well, yeah, I, in many ways now, of course, I, I wish I knew this about myself when I was young, particularly again, growing up on Long Island. Uh, it was tough. Uh, uh, my, my friends were demonstrative and loud and, you know, I used to have the thick New York accent back in the day. I mean it, and it was, um, my sister still lives there, my sister's demonstrative and loud. And, and, and yet from my earliest days, I felt different. right? I just felt like I could not keep up. I didn't fit in. I didn't really belong. Um, and things impacted me like how loud people were in my house when we had guests over and there was the pasta flowing and, and loud New York accents. And I just wanted to go hide in my room or crawl under a bed or, or, uh, and, and I remember there were times where I would, uh, I'd be on the couch. pretending I was napping, um, but probably off away in my head in some distant place, uh, just trying to escape. Um, and, and that impacted

The Experience of Being a Highly Sensitive Person

Chuck 41:09

me in, in my early days in particular, uh, really shy, sensitive, uh, even in terms of like loud noises and, and, um, clothes and different materials that my mom would put on, you know, those kinds of things that HSPs typically, uh, identify with. What's interesting Uh, and I'll, I'll keep this short is, is, uh, when I first got into therapy, um, based on my story, therapists thought there has to be some sort of really significant abuse in this guy's past. And um, and when we talk about, uh, HSP, high sensitivity, we're talking more about a trait than, uh, something that emerges out of, uh, the pain of life or some sort of suffering. And so there's something about that that was really fraying to say, okay, there's, there's something about this. Cocktail here. You know, I, I think there's a mystery with the Enneagram, you know, is people wanna know, is it nature, is it nurture? Is it your story or is it your biology? All that kind of stuff. Um, there's something in the cocktail that I think. I was desperate to figure out early on, did something really bad happen to me to make me this way? And I've, I've come to this place of, of, yeah, there were some things that were tough, but I, but I was also born into the world with this capacity and it's really a beautiful capacity for sensitivity. Um, it wasn't taught to me as a beautiful thing, but it's something that I've come to sort of cherish about myself and it's a gift that I can bring to the world too. And so. Uh, yeah, the four in the high sensitivity sort of merged together in in a beautiful way. Uh, that became

Beth 42:46

very helpful. Yeah. And at least I'm gonna guess and you can kind of tell me if I'm right or wrong, but it is an overflow of Like the, the sensitivity, the pain that you've gone through, recognizing it, your own story, also the work you've done really comes, comes through your books, at least from what I have read and knowing a little bit, you know, about you personally. Is that true?

Chuck 43:12

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, um, the first one in particular was probably the one that fused. the fewest number of people know about because it was from the small imprint. I wasn't looking to get published, but, um, I was trying to make sense of the counseling journey and the discipleship journey, the formation journey through this story of the Exodus and, um, spent years and years, um, looking at that story as, as, um, Not just for what happened, but as this metaphor of our lives, this movement from Egypt to the promised land. And, um, in some ways, I still think some of my best writing was in that. And some of my most beautiful sort of writing was in that. And it was deeply personal, um, and metaphorical. And, and, you know, there's a lot of imagery and story like, yeah, There was that. And then, and then they were, it's interesting. And in one story, there are attempts to kind of, um, I wanted to show certain competencies and toughest people a lot. Like I know what I'm talking about, about mental health counseling categories, you know, and, um, you know, so there are always aspects of yourself that come out in other ways and other writings. Uh, the narcissism book was not a book I wanted to write, intended to write. Um, it was really, Asked of me by others, uh, pastors in particular, like, please write something that would be accessible. And I hoped it would go away as soon as it came out. Like I hoped I, I did a podcast with you as soon as COVID began. I remember that and thinking, I just hope that. I don't have to talk about this book, you know, after two months and it turned out to be probably my worst writing and the most popular book.

Beth 44:49

Well, it's the biggest, probably pain point, I guess, you know, people are really resonating or there's pain point. And you're, you're touching on a lot of things anyway, you know, I totally know what you mean though. Yeah.

Chuck 44:59

It's interesting though, just to get back to what you asked. Like I, I, I decided if I'm going to write something, my next book is I'm going to come back home and interesting. That's in the subtitle, but I, I'm going to come back home to myself, um, and ask myself what, what would be. what would be writing that would come from deep, deep places within me, right? And, and I wanted it to be my very best writing. I was really committed to the beauty of the writing, the storytelling, and, and telling more of my own story than I ever had before. And so that was, I think in some ways, That too was, um, maybe that's just maturity. Maybe that's part of that. It's just growing up. But, but like, um, uh, it was, I want to offer something beautiful, not just something that I, I can talk about because I know a little something about narcissistic pathology.

Beth 45:49

You know, right, right. You know, I can totally, totally resonate, you know, with that. And I always thought, you know, like the, um, musicians, you know, like a band, you know, they have like, you know, a really big hit. Sometimes it's not like their favorite song, but everyone wants them to play that song every time that they're on stage. That's a great point. Oh my gosh. Um, well, the last thing that you had, um, kind of shared was, okay, I'm a self preservation four. It's the counter type. I'm highly sensitive person. So what's the growth path look like? Is it maybe I'm putting words into your mouth, but is it different than the four or what's going on? Is that kind of, can you just kind of share a little bit more about what you were, um, proposing with

Chuck 46:30

that? Yeah. No, I think you, you hit on it. Um, I mean, I, I do think that I'm a lifelong learner. Right. And so there are these new, newly integrated kind of concepts over the years that I wasn't thinking about quite as much in terms of my own story of internalized trauma, in terms of my own self understanding around HSP, um, integrating that with, with the Enneagram and, and trying to understand the path of growth. And, um, and then of course the subtypes were, were pretty, pretty big. You know, I m countertype because that uh, when, when everyone's you should be more, if yo way more emotional, way m more poetic, way more thi enough to be a four. Um, maybe part of the curiosi the, um, instinctual subtype of, of self preservation for, for, right? Like, um, what have you seen there? Um, and, and I guess another piece of the question is, uh, I only know women who are self prez for us. And so here I am, a guy who identifies as HSP, who's a self prez for like, what have you seen Beth? Yeah.

Beth 47:48

So our pastor up in Illinois, I don't know if you know, uh, Dr. Bob smart. Um, but he's a self preservation for, so, um, Oh, he's just, he's amazing. He's amazing. And,

The Role of Self-Awareness in Personal Growth

Beth 47:59

um, but, and I was just say, you know, our audience, just to kind of give you a heads up is probably 85 percent women. And obviously the world population is an 85 percent women. So I think, you know, and you see this all the time, I'm sure in counseling, majority of the people that come are women. So the, The majority of the people that are engaging with the Enneagram are going to be more women, therefore probably you're going to hear or see more of that. Um, and probably a lot of guys. They don't even know maybe to look at the, the force, especially self press for, cause they're probably going to say that there are one or possibly, possibly even the seven. And so I think that's, that's pretty easy to miss type. Um, I think you're very self aware. And so you knew, no, I'm a four. I just am a little different. I'm unique. That's the four. Um, And so I think, you know, that, that is just very normal. Um, but when it comes to growth path, uh, for the self preservation for, you know, I think the big thing I would say is, and I think, and I'm not saying this necessarily to you, cause I know I'm pretty sure you were already doing this, but I think there's going to be a lot of self preservation force that haven't. Found a safe place to share their emotions, to share their life, to, to share their traumas, whether big or small. So like you said, you're like, I'm trying to find like what big trauma there was. You know, um, it's not that there was a big trauma per se. I, I hold the belief that. God, create us our type. And then, so it's nature and nurture. So it's like nature first and your story plays a huge role in how healthy to unhealthy you're able to utilize that type, right? So like if you are born in a family that is very self aware and is able to help with self regulation and they're strong attachments and all those things, you're going to get a lot of, let's say tools to put in your. Uh, told, uh, best and you know, you're going to have a lot more things to self regulate and to understand yourself. But there's some people that really have gotten nothing. And then they grew up in a very dysfunctional family and it's going to, not that they can't, they can totally learn. That's why they come to people like you or coaches. Um, so it's possible, but it's just going to take a lot longer of a time. And so I think for you. You have found those safe people to express yourself, to walk through things, to understand the emotional range that you have. Um, and like you were saying a second ago to understand when you're moving into fantasy or imagination of a lot of times, what fours will do is they'll imagine what people are thinking or feeling about them and actually think it's real. And then they start to have a push pull in their relationship. And so I think the biggest thing is recognizing what I usually tell people, You know, the Enneagram is like an internal GPS. So your main type is your current location and then you have a healthiest destination, but we tend to veer off course. And so we want to set up those rumble strips within us, these alert systems. So like when you're on the highway, you start to veer off course and you want that rumble strip on the side of the highway to alert you. So you get back on path. The problem is growing up, we just veered right off. Like we can pay attention to the rumble strip and then we landed that common pitfall and we throw our hands up in the air and we're like, What just happened? Like, how did I get here again? Like, and then as we get older, we're like, wait, I knew that this was, I A bad idea. Why did I do it again? And so then we start shaming ourselves and putting ourselves down, but it's because we haven't usually taken the time to literally put in the rumble strips in our life to alert us. So when a type four can become more self aware of veering off into imagination or fantasy, and pretty much. Assuming other people's thoughts and feelings about them, which actually aren't necessary. Valid. It could be, but they haven't validated them. Um, they haven't asked those questions. And so then they live in that world. Well, that can then really kind of get you into that common pitfall of withdrawing, isolating or pushing the relationship aside. Um, it can get it. into the unhealthy to space, you know, of, um, manipulation and garnering kind of a, a martyr like syndrome. So, but once we kind of know what that can look like, we, what we want to do is, is. Just especially when we're in that pitfall to look back and go, I wonder where the rumble strip was in this whole situation. Cause it was, it was there, it was somewhere. When could I have recognized that aha moment to then alert myself, just like when we're on the highway, hopefully everyone's doing this when you hit the rumble strip, you. gently steer yourself back into the healthy lane. Um, you don't need to, you don't need to jerk the wheel so hard that you're going in the opposite direction too much. You don't need to overcorrect. We just need to help self regulate, self understand. And sometimes it's actually having people around us to help us to navigate that in a way that's. safer, more self regulating, calm, attaching. Um, so for the self preservation for, I think a lot of it is going to be, um, one just recognizing what those warning signs are for the self preservation for in particular, which is, am I holding on to my emotions and not feeling safe to express them to someone that I can trust that can understand me. And I think that is the path to a lot of growth for the self preservation and for is to find that person. It can be a friend, it can be a spouse, it can be a coach, a spiritual director, a counselor. There's lots of resources out there, but you want to find someone that can understand the four and not try to convert the four into something different. We want. them, this person to hold space for the four to be all that they are and to celebrate who God has created them to be and to be able to listen. And I think that can be challenging, not because the four themselves are challenging, but because not all the nine types are willing or able or wanting to hold a wide range of emotions that the four, um, is created to express. And so you want to someone that can hold that range of emotions. Does that feel True and real for you.

Chuck 54:28

Yeah. So true. Yeah. And, and, and I think where, where we can be self sabotaging is no one will ever be able to hold that wide range of emotions. Right. And so, um, I know I've, I've had to, um, not just have grace for myself, but for others to say, um, okay, so I may, come away feeling misunderstood. And it doesn't mean that that it's not a judgment. It's not an indictment on them. It's this is a story that's been deep in my bones for a long, long time. And, um, and it's simply moving toward another and beginning to connect and open myself up to being vulnerable and known. Um, just like in this space. I mean, it's been beautiful to sit with you and to have you sort of what, I mean, here we are just. Sort of doing it on the fly in a, in a podcast. Right. But I, and I, and you know, this, I mean, I've worked with the Enneagram in some way or another for 25 years and yet to learn so much in a short period of time. So thank you. Yeah.

Beth 55:27

And I think, you know, what's, what's amazing with the fours. And I love that you said that because I would say actually to all fours, Hey, when you go get a coach or when you get a counselor or a friend or a spouse, whoever it is that you're opening up to, I think you just need to know that when you walk away, You're always, to some degree, going to feel like they didn't fully understand you. That's right. And that's okay. Now, that's a bummer, right? Because we, we long for as long to be fully understood and to feel that they belong. And that's where Christ comes in. So we do, we are, we do fully belong. And yet we're still longing to fully belong because we're waiting for heaven. So it's like a both. And so I think recognizing the reality of living on this planet on this side of the fall, you're going to walk from away from the best counselors and the best coaches or whoever it is with that same feeling, but that doesn't negate the good that came out of it and the good that that person did now, Hey. There's going to be, you know, I would, I don't want to say that every person they've, uh, for us talked to is good. You need to definitely be very aware that maybe someone is way off base and you need to avoid them for sure. But if you've walked away and you're like, man, that really felt good and yet I still feel like they didn't fully understand me. There's more that we need to unpack or there's like, that is perfectly. normal for a four to

Chuck 56:52

experience. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and maybe even like at some level befriend like it's, it's okay. It's, um, I think what you're saying is beautiful because it's, there is a, there is even an eschatological component to this. It's now and not yet this living in the in between this. Yeah. Okay. That's great. Um, And, uh, and, uh, but it feels good, like, even in this time together, just to reflect back to you, like, being with you, I think there's something very satisfying, I suspect for every Enneagram type, but for fours, just to feel seen or known or to, you know, to be attuned to, which you know. Um, which is, uh, like deep, deeply helpful to, I think, at least for me, this forest soul.

Beth 57:34

I love that. Thank you so much. Well, it has been such a joy to have you on and to see you again, to talk. I'm so excited for the next book to come out. I know it's going to be in a year, but I'm going to get it whenever it's like, so you got to let everyone know when it's pre order I'm on it. Um, all the way. So thank you for just the work that you have done. Um, again, it's immensely been helpful for me and those that I love. Um, let everyone know like where they can find you and your work.

Chuck 58:04

Yeah, well, first, thank you. I mean, you guys are who I refer people to to get their coaching training and to learn more about the Enneagram. And it's, um, I just trust you so much, uh, in your, in this work and, uh, your integrity in it, your knowledge, your, um, your heart for people. So thank you. Um, Yeah. To find me, um, at Chuck DeGroat across the socials, uh, Twitter or X, uh, Instagram threads, Facebook, uh, my website is www. chuckdegroat. net. And so that would be the place to find me there. And then I teach at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. So, uh, if you feel like moving to this beautiful. a geography that we inhabit up here and doing a counseling degree or some sort of other master's degree, come find me. Yeah, great.

Beth 59:00

Absolutely. And that's a beautiful place, especially when the tulips come out,

Chuck 59:04

right? Oh, well, yeah, it's that's May. May to May to August made a September. It's particularly beautiful. And then the days darken. But I mean, there's a glare today. I didn't realize that I would have this glare. I mean, the sun is out. You know, we, we have less sun than Anchorage, Alaska during the winter months. And so I actually don't mind the glare and the blue skies today. Oh,

Beth 59:28

absolutely. So, uh, well again, thank you so much everyone go get his books, uh, engage with him. Um, I know you have a newsletter that you put out guys. I cannot recommend more highly Chuck to grow. So thanks Chuck for being with us. Yeah. Thanks Beth. Well, that was so much fun having Chuck DeGroat here with me. I hope that you guys really enjoyed that. And just a sneak peek behind the curtains as a coach, um, I was listening to a lot of really just neat things that he was saying. Um, but I also know he was kind of like, Hey, is the growth path any different? And so I just wanted to highlight for him some of the things like those rumble strips that we can put, um, in our life, those alert systems of. Hey, you know, these things are happening. I can feel myself kind of holding back or resisting my emotions. And again, not to bring it into shame. Um, but as an awareness, do I need to actually express myself with someone? Do I need to, um, Have a place that I feel safe and feel like I belong. So those are kind of some things that I was really highlighting, but Chuck is just such an amazing friend and author and speaker. I hope you guys really engage with his work. Um, and like you saw it, like he was really enjoying that conversation. And, and that's a lot of times what coaching is like, where we really mirror back or give some insights, but then what we want you to unpack your story, we want you to think about. What is the best path of growth for you? So, um, it is a, you know, we're going to walk side by side with you. If you're looking for an Enneagram coach, we have so many great Enneagram coaches that have gone through our training and you can find one at my Enneagram coach. com. That's my Enneagram coach. com. Now, some of you are like. Man, this sounds so awesome. I'd love to be a coach. Then get our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course and see what it's like. We'd love for you to engage in that. Um, we also have our certification program called become an Enneagram coach that we'd love for you to participate in. Um, so take that mini course and check it out. We'd love for you to join. Now, as always remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it is the gospel that transforms us. Thanks again for joining me today. I look forward to the next conversation I have with a very special guest, and I hope you'll join me there until then. We'll see you later.