Introduction

Beth 1:11

everyone. Welcome back to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach. And at YEC, we desire to use the Enneagram to bring real and lasting transformation into your lives and relationships. And we're deeply committed into training and raising up the next generation of amazing Enneagram coaches. Now, each episode, what we're going to be doing is interviewing a guest, highlighting, you know, the things that they offer the world. But we're also going to do like this really fun coaching conversation, demonstrating how amazingly helpful the Enneagram can be in a person's life when they're getting coached. Now wait till the end, cause I'm going to pull back the curtain and kind of tell you some of the thoughts I had that uniquely popped up during the course of our episode, as in a coach coaching's mindset. It's like, what was I thinking? Why did I navigate the conversation in a particular way for that? Uh, guests, uh, personally type. Now, if you're enjoying our podcast, we would love for you to like, subscribe, and put a review for others to find us. And for those of you that are passionate about the Enneagram, you're the Enneagram enthusiast, but you want to move into being that Enneagram expert coach. Well, then take our, become an Enneagram coach course. You can actually try it for free with our mini course at your Enneagram coach. com. Forward slash mini course, but some of you, that's just not where you're at. You're just really loving to learn more about yourself and the Enneagram, and you want some more help with your transformation, then go get a coach. We've got lots of really great certified coaches at my. Enneagram coach.com. That's my enneagram coach.com.

Introducing Guest Tyler Zach

Beth 2:52

with that, let's dive into today's episode and let's, uh, talk with Tyler Zach. Now Tyler is a really dear friend of mine. He is a type three with a four wing certified coach and has had 18 years of experience in campus ministry and as a pastor. He co founded One Hope Church in Omaha, Nebraska. And that's where he and Lindsay, his wife live. She is a type six with a seven wing and they have two adopted sons. Now, Tyler has done an amazing job putting together a 40 day, uh, journal for all nine Enneagram types. These are like Enneagram devotionals guys. You're gonna want to get one of these. They're fantastic. And he sold over 10, 000 copies so far. And I have had the privilege of actually writing the forward to each one of them.

The Real History of the Enneagram

Beth 3:44

Now, not only that, but Tyler is leading the way as a lead researcher in the real history of the Enneagram. I know there's lots of stuff out there, but simply just listening to his one hour presentation on YouTube is truly remarkable, or you can get his robust course on the real. History of the Enneagram where he dives in to exactly where did this begin and what's going on. So he's going to tell you a 50 percent off coupon code at the end of the show. So stick around for that, but you can get everything at gospel for Enneagram. com. And with that, let's bring them on and introduce Tyler Zock to all of you. Hey, Tyler, it's good to have you here.

Tyler 4:26

It is great to spend some more time with you, Beth. Thanks for inviting me on.

Beth 4:30

Absolutely. Well, I just wanted to share how grateful I am for the research you've done, man. You dove in, I mean, and you talk to some of like the well seasoned teachers who have been with, uh, those that kind of started the Enneagram, you know, way back in the day. Tell me a little bit, like, what was it like to do all that research and to find what you found?

Tyler 4:51

Well, yeah, as a pastor, I wanted to make sure that we do as the Apostle Paul said to do, which is to test everything. And I wanted to make sure that I was being biblically faithful, just being a faithful pastor leader using the Enneagram. And so I did a little bit of a deep dive. And then a year later came back and said, I really want to go even deeper, uh, to do, to exploring the ancient roots and why people think it's ancient. And you know, what's with the Enneagram symbol and what can we, you know, uh, did it come from automatic writing? Is there any validity to that? And, and so I did a real, a deep dive and really came out of that feeling more clear. about the history, more confident to use it. And so I was like, as a three, I'm like, I have to put together a course to help other people to find clarity and confidence to use it and teach it. Yeah. So it was, it was just a really fun process doing that.

Beth 5:45

And I know like the whole, let's say automatic writing comment, let's just. Take just that one little thing you have actually talked with two of Naranjo's Students about this very topic. Can you kind of shed some light on what they said about that?

Tyler 6:02

Yeah, and also Russ Hudson recently. Yeah, so, you know in our correspondence with Beatrice chestnut She was a student of his in the 90s and around I was in the 90s and just said no By the way that he was using automatic writing He was using as a meditative writing process to sort of collect his thoughts from all of his previous, you know extensive education in the area of personality being working at Harvard and Berkeley and all those places Uh, and so she said, no, he did not get it from a spirit or a demon. Uh, he, that's not what he was using automatic writing, uh, to describe. And then there's also Catherine Favre, who also in personal correspondence with me, backed that up and said that, that she, uh, took, uh, Naranjo to mean meditative writing process, uh, when he was speaking of, of, uh, this automatic writing. And then recently this past year. I was talking with Russ Hudson, you know, one of the foremost Enneagram pioneers and well respected Enneagram teachers. And he said that he had a personal conversation with Naranjo himself and sat down and said, you know, Naranjo, why in the world did you say you got it from automatic writing? Because I know you did it. And Naranjo kind of laughed and said it had been a really long day. And he was just trying to be a little bit of a type five. And, you know, being cheeky and so Russ Hudson right there said, yeah, I just confirmed with him in that moment that he did not get it from, uh, uh, uh, sort of trying to download it from some sort of supernatural, uh, spirit or source. Um, but that it was just, uh, again, like a meditative writing process of collecting everything. So. There you got three really valid sources that can back up that Neuronhub did not, in fact, get it from a spirit or a demon.

Beth 8:00

Well, and I just really appreciate because it Your research goes way beyond just that one portion of the real history of the Enneagram. But I think that that's a really important thing to highlight in that, you know, you did your due diligence and asking those that knew Naranjo and actually studied under him and actually asked him point blank about it. So just thank you so much for Just doing that research and putting it together for all of us to enjoy. Now I know that with the course that you have, um, you want to give our listeners a 50 percent off coupon code. So can you kind of tell them just a little bit about where they can find that and what the coupon code is?

Tyler 8:38

Yeah. If you go to my website, tylerzak. com, so it's there on the screen, tylerzak. com slash history. It was really easy to find tylerzak. com slash history. You can browse the syllabus. You can download a portion of the course workbook to see all the modules, all the lessons. There's like 21 lessons. It's like three hours of condensed content that you can binge watch on one day. So it's, it's. Pretty crazy. You can become an Enneagram history expert within the next 24 hours, if you go and binge watch that. Uh, or you can space it out if you want. Uh, but yeah, it's a, it's a presentation, lots of, uh, images, slides, timelines of, of the progression of Enneagram through the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s to the present. Um, how you and a few other authors really brought the Enneagram into the evangelical world. Uh, and so, yeah, there's lots there to go, to go, uh, glean from. And so, yeah, the, the YEC code, just YEC, uh, will get you 50 percent off the course today. So hopefully that's a blessing to some of those listening. Yeah.

Beth 9:41

That's amazing. Cause like I, like I said, guys, this isn't just little research. This is like heavy duty research, like, you know, three going all out. Right. And so if that's a topic that interests you, this is definitely the course to get. So thanks Tyler for that. Um,

Tyler's Personal Reflections and Growth

Beth 9:57

okay. So this year. You turned 40, is that right? That's right. So, okay. So you recently turned 40 and usually what happens to all of us though, for me, that was several years ago, we started to do some self reflection, right? Like, okay, where have I been? Where am I going? And for you, you had mentioned that, you know, you've played lots of different roles throughout your life as a good three wood, um, and you've been reflecting on that and wondering, okay, what does this look like in my moving forward? The next phase of my life in living. To be my authentic self. And you were kind of like asking about it. So can you kind of, um, maybe share a little bit more of what you were thinking with that and where you're wanting to kind of. Go in that trajectory and we can kind of have like, just like a fun little coaching conversation around that.

Tyler 10:46

Yeah. Well, one big change in my life is that I'm no longer in full time ministry, uh, as a pastor, and that came through a sabbatical a couple of years ago as I was approaching 40 and thinking about turning 40, uh, I read Donald Miller's book, uh, here on a mission. And loved it. I gave it to my wife, who's a six, and she said, well, it's a total type three book. Uh, so she didn't enjoy it as much as me, but I really liked it because he really forced you to say, look at the next part of your life. of your life and to get, to get real saying, okay, the average life expectancy is this age. So minus your age off of that, that's how many years do you have left to live, to leave a legacy? What are you going to do? Yeah. And as I looked back at the previous 10 years of ministry, I just saw how hard it was for my wife, um, having a son on the spectrum, going through two adoptions and just seeing her in that pastor wife role really struggle on the weekends. I mean, really, uh, coming to church was not a fun experience for her since I was always going early to, to do all that. And you, you know, you guys know a little bit about that from being a

Beth 11:59

minister. I'm feeling it right now. I'm feeling it.

Tyler 12:01

Yeah. And, and so I made the big decision to leave full time ministry to do Enneagram stuff full time so that I could tutor our son a couple of days a week, uh, because we've, he's been kicked out of multiple schools. Uh, and so we've had to homeschool him and this allows her to get out like this morning. She went on substitute, um, taught and just loves as a six wing, seven extroverted. Girl who just loves getting out of the house and mingling with people. Like it's been a really fun season for her to be able to get to do that. Yeah. So we're just really thriving this year. And I can talk a little bit more

The Balance Between Achieving and Being

Tyler 12:36

about that later. But going back to the book, Donald Miller's book, it really forced me to ask some questions. And I started thinking about all the roles that I've had in my life, and I look back and see how wrapped up I was as a leader in high school, uh, to sports and to the achievements that I was trying to pursue, um, you know, and in college, I became president of my fraternity and just wrapped as a, I just Was a chameleon who just sort of turned the color of my fraternity. Uh, I had this fraternity license plate, the name on my license plate. I wore all the shirts. Like I was, you know, Mr. Sig at, and then in campus ministry, you know, I tried to be the campus ministry poster boy for our organization. And then as a pastor, I went all in and became Mr. Church planter. And I look back now and I'm. It sort of saddens me. There's the shame sort of creeps up because I'm like, uh, was I being really authentic? Like, is it, was that really me? Uh, because most of those roles, if I look back, I got invited into it because people oftentimes look at a three and they're like, Oh, well he can achieve stuff. Sure. I remember getting, uh, invited down to. Uh, Kansas State, uh, to do campus ministry there. So, so really close to, uh, Jeff's, uh, arrival. That's the arrival. See football at ku. Yeah. And I remember the, the regional director saying, Tyler, I know that, that you're not gonna fail at this like that you're gonna do everything textbook and that you, you're going to revive this campus ministry. Hmm. And so I've had lots of conversations like that where people have invited me into something and even church planting. My, my two, two of my best friends that were pastors said, Hey, we want you to go plant a church. We know that you're going to do a great job and it's going to succeed and, and et cetera, et cetera. And so lots of, lots of it. I've been invited into it. Hasn't been my, uh, wasn't my decision. It wasn't something that I came up with, but I got invited into it because people thought I would help it be successful. And so I'm looking at much of what I've done in life thinking, how much have I done that, uh, that I really wanted to do. Or was it, I was, I just turning, you know, being a chameleon and shapeshifting because I knew that there was going to be accolades and applause for, for doing those roles well.

Beth 15:03

So what did you come up with? Like, so how many of those were, and I'm sure it's, it's a mixed bag, you know, I'm sure some of it, you probably, it was partly who you were and partly. Uh, shapeshifting into a role, but so looking back, you know, what has it seemed to you that was authentic and less authentic?

Tyler 15:30

That's a great question. And the honest answer is I don't know yet. I'm still, I'm still processing that because a lot of it had to do with prayer and praying about these things and feeling confirmation from the Lord. So I'm just trying to navigate all that. Maybe spend a little less time trying to figure that out and more on, okay, so what's, what's coming up next year? Uh, what, what can I do to make sure it's authentic? It's something that God wants me to do that I really want to do is not going to be, um, forced or, um, my course is not going to be directed by other people, uh, telling me that I should do something because I would be great at it.

Beth 16:10

And. On one level, I would say I 100 percent agree. Like, let's move forward, which is a total three thing to do. Right. But I would also suggest. Taking that time that you were kind of processing it, because I think some of the things that you actually pointed out, even just now, and you know, this about me, I always talk about the Enneagram being a rumble strip on the highway, you know, where we want it to alert us when we're starting to veer off our healthiest path, but. In order for it to be a rumble strip, we have to even understand when that rumble strip is being sounded because so often in our daily life, hopefully not when we're really in a car, but when we're in our daily life, we go over the rumble strip really quickly because we're used to doing it a very specific way. And it. feels right in the moment. So then we're like, all of a sudden in that common pitfall, that whatever our types common pitfall is. And then we throw up our hands and are like, what? Like, how did I get here again? I knew that wasn't the right thing to do. Why did I not, you know, since the rumble strip when it was happening? Well, a lot of times it's because we haven't taken the time to understand when the rumble strip is being activated and what it is. So what you were saying is. Okay. Like a rumble strip would be, you are being invited by people because they admire you and they respect you and you get things done and you accomplish on one side. That's amazing. Right. But that also can be a rumble strip, not in a negative sense, like, Oh, this is going to be bad, but as a, you know what, I think I need to take time to really assess is this. Something I authentically want to be a part of, and is this the overflow of truly who I am in combination of how God created me? Or is it that this just feels awesome that someone believes in me and yeah, I can kill it. I can knock it out of the park, which is what a three. Would and could do, but does that make sense in taking that time to reflect back, which is hard for three, because let's just move forward,

Tyler 18:21

right? For sure. For sure. As soon as it came out of my mouth, I was like, Oh man, I just teed Beth up. Uh, cause we're so future oriented and. That is such a great point, but the work is to go back and reflect on those things. And I can't beat myself up too much because a lot of, uh, a lot of what I've done within the roles that I played were authentic, like my authentic desires and I got to do authentic things. Uh, so. I can't beat myself up about that. No, but I think I think, um, yeah, I need to reflect on that more. And one of the common denominators between some of the roles is that I got invited into it, which made it even more appealing. Like, okay, if they. Looking for the external validation. If they think that I can be good at it and they will praise me for it, then then I should do it. Whereas now I'm trying to, to right now, look at moving forward. I'm trying to drown out those voices and say, what are my convictions? What are my, what are my, um, desires? Sort of like what a nine should do, uh, to, to awaken themselves up to their, those core desires within and, and move forward. Authentically, with that in mind, rather than listening and being directed by any external validation.

Beth 19:47

Yeah. And so there's two things I want to piggyback on that as well. So one, I love that you said, I, I don't want to look back and kind of have shame or guilt because God has brought you to the point that you're at. For the reason he wanted you to be there, if he wanted you to be on some other trajectory, he would have done that. So it's not so much to look back and feel guilty or shame or, Oh man, I should have, or I shouldn't have your story is the unfolding of what God is doing within your life to bless others. So it's more. Self awareness and self, you know, growth and who he has created you to be. And you're just at a season where he's right now, he's wanting you to unpack this authentic part of your heart. But part of that authentic heart is being a three who can really do things well. And you can do things well in a lot of spheres, which is amazing. I mean, if we just think about what you're doing now, and I know that you said you're no longer in ministry, but that's not true because you are in ministry. It just looks completely different. Um, you are bringing the tool of the Enneagram from a gospel centered perspective, and you're doing it from an entrepreneur perennial pursuit because you are wanting to care for your family in a whole new way. And so that is just radically different. But also amazing. And what else? I see, you know, just because we're friends and we, when we have talked a lot, is that all of these gifts and skills that you have, God has literally shaped you in such a way for a season as this. And so all that you've gone through isn't like, oh man, I wasn't authentic or I wasn't, no part of that was authentic to who you were. And yes, some of it wasn't. And that's just part of life. And so I. My hope is for you in threes that, that move forward. It's not, I've never been authentic because that's not true. It's okay. Well, which parts of that were authentic word, my real self, and how can I continue in that trajectory and then what we're. The morning signs, the rumble strips, the things that actually really weren't true to who I am, but I love the praise or the accolades or the respect or whatever it is. And it slipped me into a path that actually wasn't the best for me. So I just want to make sure like, as threes are listening to this, that it's not an all or nothing. It's a both. And the other thing I wanted to point out was as you move forward in this new space of like, Like you were just saying, like, yeah, as a type nine, you know, we have to learn, you know, like, well, what do I like? What do I want? And it is, it's like, I don't know. And I'm still figuring it out all the time. But, um, I think the biggest thing, and I'd love to actually hear your thoughts on this is the biggest thing with a three and a nine is the three learning that they are usually human doings. And the nine tends to be a human, we're just being, we're just, Hey, we're just here. But that doesn't mean one is better than the other. Cause sometimes the threes, Hey, I mean the nines, Hey, let's do like, Oh, you know, be something like, you know, point your star or your arrow in the direction of the star and like, go for it. Whereas, so it's, it's a both end, right? We're both learning from each other. But I think for, I'd love to hear from you as. Okay. Cause like one of the other things that, uh, that we were going to talk about was as a three, you're constantly going and doing and waiting to achieve, and yet that can impact your family. Right? So the ambition, the drive, um, the thoughts, the creativity, um, all of that is exciting. And it can have ramifications on the family. So again, the human doing versus the human being for the type three. So can we kind of just unpack what that looks and feels like? When do you see yourself in seasons of the human doing and what does that look and feel like? And what are the seasons that you can reflect back on and go? You know what? No, I was totally in the human being. I was just being me even though I was still doing stuff. I was being what does that look like for you?

Tyler 24:17

Well, first of all, I really appreciate the push to look backward. I think that's one of the The things that I'll take away from this, um, coaching session, uh, public, public coaching session, because it is so hard for a three to think that there's any value in the past. Right. And that the values in the future, we need to figure out the, the vision, the what's ahead. Yeah. Now moving forward, I can journal more and think about those previous decisions and roles that I played. Uh, so that, that's really helpful. Thank you for that. Um, to, to answer your question, um, I remember Suzanne Stabile saying to twos, you know, what, if it asks the question, what's yours to do? Um, and I think for threes, it's, you know, what's yours to achieve because. I feel like I get so many book ideas in one day. I'm, I'm, you know, listening to things and I'm like, Oh, that would be a good book. I should, I should write about that and just be self deceived into thinking like, I'm a, I'm a very competent in that area, but probably not. Uh, or I, you know, they want to take a shortcut to beat. To let other people think that I'm, uh, you know, incompetent in that area when I'm not. And so, you know, threes are just so easy to cut corners and to jump on things really quickly without having that track record and, you know, built up. And so that's, I'm just showing some of the, the, the inner, uh, confusion that I have with achieving is because I think a lot of threes do function like human doings and we process things like a computer and when we see that there's need for the potential or we see that there's a need to produce something or to build something or to start something, we automatically. Just intuitively see that need for that thing. And then, but we, the self deception part is, is we think that we're the, we're the person that must go and achieve that thing and that no one else can, or we're the best people for it. And so I need to keep asking myself that question every single day is what's mine to achieve. And be okay. If, if I'm only supposed to achieve, if God only wants me to achieve these three things rather than these 20 things, uh, over the next, over the next year. And so when I think it's, I need to achieve these 20 things, then it just drowns out my family. It pushes friendships to this, to, you know, to the side. And I just, yeah, turn into a human doing. Um, and just continuing to chomp at the bit to get stuff done every single day.

Beth 27:07

And you chomp at the bit, why, like, what's the fear if you don't like, what wells up and like,

Tyler 27:14

yeah, I think, yeah, I think the more we do, the more value we'll have. And the more joy and pleasure inside that we've accomplished more than less and my, I've always said, you know, for the first half of my life, I really want to get to heaven and say, God, you know, hear God say, well done. And everybody kind of says that answer. They always want to hear God say that, but threes especially want to hear. Well done. Like you, you didn't waste your life. You went hard and you achieved all these things for me. Well done. And that's not why he, he, uh, he says, well done. Uh, you know, because of the, because of the gospel, we're, we're love for, for who we are, not what we do. Um, and got to remember that yet Jesus was affirmed at his baptism before he even started his ministry. And I think you've said that as well before. But, um, so I, I'm repentance for me. Is daily thinking about, okay, what is mine to achieve and what's not mine to achieve? Because God often is wanting me to do less than what I think he's asking me to do. And it's, that's why I need you, Beth. That's why I need a coach and people around me. Because as much as we know... Some of us know so much about the Enneagram and we know we've read so many books, but we need people to massage that truth and to work that truth into our lives. Because hearing it from you is much more powerful than hearing me try to say it to myself.

Beth 28:46

And I love that you point that out because You're an Enneagram expert coach. You like, you know, you put on Enneagram summits. Like, it's not like you don't know this information and that's why we have Enneagram coaching. That's why we certify coaches. And a lot of people say, well, what about people that know a lot about the Enneagram? I'm like, you'd be surprised. They like me, I know a lot about the Enneagram, but I need just like you people around me that are reflecting back, not telling me what to do, but reflecting back the things that I need to consider and process through. Within my own life, because I am too close to it to sometimes see what I can't see. And so having a coach reflect back, highlight, bring to mind and giving me the space to talk it through allows me to go deeper and further and have a richer, really conversation with myself and highlighting a new direction to move forward. So it's just kind of like, like you said, yeah, I've thought about looking back, but I, you know, I tend to not want to, because of course you're. Type just doesn't enjoy that. That's just not the way you're typically wired. And yet today you're like, okay, no, yeah, that's actually a good. And so Enneagram coaching is so powerful in that sense. Now with the, I would love to hear also. So you, you kind of know what it feels like probably on a more regular basis, what it feels like to be revved up and excited to achieve and accomplish and to go, go, go. And I'm sure it feels awesome, but. What is it like to sit and to be still or like Martha versus Mary, you know, like, what is it like to sit at the feet of Jesus? And what I mean by that, and no judgment, shame, just as an authentic expression. What does your body feel like, because it's different than a nine, a nine's like, dude, I can do that all day long. I can chill, but I'm sure that's not what it feels like for you in that first few moments or the first few days of learning just to be, can you explain what that actually kind of feels like to move from that human doing and achieving into a little bit more authentic of human being, just you.

Tyler 31:10

It's really good. It's really hard because threes are like treading water. And when they're not achieving, it feels like they have to stop and then they start sinking and like how sevens feel like the present is quicksand and need to keep planning, thinking about the future to, to get out of the quicksand. I think for me, it's, yeah, it just feels like treading water and I'm, I'm getting stuff done, but if I stop working, then I'll, I'll drown. Yeah. And that's the kind of feeling. So your body, you're, you have a visceral reaction of, uh, I don't want to just sit here and, and rest, but there's times when I get tricked into it or, uh, I don't even know that I'm resting and, and then find it really fulfilling. And like mowing is one of those those times for me where I didn't really like mowing before. Uh, but especially having two loud kids in the house getting out there mowing and listening to music is one of my favorite things to do as a three because i'm not really Like I really don't care about my lawn too much. Uh, so it's not like I'm trying to make the perfect lawn in the neighborhood. Um, I don't live in one of those neighborhoods where everything is just, you know, landscape is out of this world. So, so it's okay. I'm not trying to, to, you know, be the best lawn in the neighborhood, but I get out there, I'm mowing and I'm listening to music, especially my four wing too. I love melancholy music and music just really is helpful for me to stir up my emotions. And, uh, And when I'm doing that, I'm not achieving anything. I'm just listening to music and just thinking about life. And, uh, this is just so pleasurable being in that moment, not thinking about the future, but just enjoying that present moment. And, you know, when I, um, I'm sitting in a basketball game with my son. And we do things like that and at present moment, there's so much joy, uh, and just enjoying something for, to enjoy it. Yeah. And I had to catch myself this past week cause I've been watching lots of Husker videos cause I'm a Husker fanatic, love, love the Huskers. It's been painful to be a Husker fan in the last few years. But I started thinking to myself, I'm watching, I'm watching these YouTube channels and I'm like, Man, I think I can make a really good YouTube channel. And I started thinking about, again, I started thinking about things I can do, uh, to be successful. And I'm like, stop it. Stop it, Tyler. Just enjoy life, enjoy watching other people, and just soak it up. Don't, don't start thinking about what you have the potential to do because we're here to just enjoy life. Um, not just be a machine, it's always producing something and I love, love, love being in the season of life now where I'm not in pastoral ministry, where I don't have to think about Sundays or when I can get to Saturday, I can think about, okay, let's, I'm gonna take my son to a game. Um, I'm going to do these things where this can be really restful and just enjoy, enjoy life without thinking about Sunday's coming. I got to get on stage on Sunday. I got to work on a sermon for Sunday. So having that rhythm for me has been really awesome.

Beth 34:23

Yeah. Um, and so can you kind of like, just kind of summarize real quickly, really for the audience. So there's, because even with the mowing, you're, you're doing something, you are accomplishing something, but it's a very different feeling and mindset than when you're. Really striving at some goal or achievements. Right. So like you're both, you're doing something, but how can you explain maybe to other threes, the big differences there and like the actual feeling inside that it, that is different.

Tyler 34:59

So good. It's so hard to describe, uh, because I'm like a fish in water. But. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with doing something just for, for enjoyment sake versus doing something to sort of add to your resume, um, to do something to go find value, to go value, value hunting and. Just this past week, I was thinking, okay, what if I redefine my scorecard, not as someone who needs to leave a legacy, who wants to be remembered 100 years from now to do something great and meaningful? It's like my three and my four coming together, do something significant and meaningful. And that sort of transcends time. What if I like redefined it? Success as just enjoying life more. It just feels really guilty. It feels really selfish to think that way. Uh, but as I started to think in those terms of, man, I just need to stop that striving because no one's going to remember me in a hundred years from now. Anyways. Uh, so it's just futile to try to pursue that sort of vanity. Uh, and just, just enjoy life and just change the scorecard. That's so, so hard for me to do. Cause it feels selfish. It feels. I don't know. It just feels lazy to do that, but I know it's the, it's the thing I need the most. Yeah.

Beth 36:31

And I, I think it's like you said, it's a mind change and what I would. Really encourage for you and then all the other threes out there that are like, Oh, this work, but I think take the example of, um, mowing your grass as the perfect example, because you are achieving. I, I'm pretty sure now you could tell me I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure you're not out there, not paying attention and your lines are all over the place and you've cut part of the grass and you haven't cut the other part of the grass. Like, I'm. I'm pretty sure you're mowing the lawn, you have some clean lines, it looks pretty good, you know, but like you said, you're not trying to have the best lawn in the neighborhood or to look the most prestigious in the neighborhood. But what's interesting, there are some threes. That is what they do for whatever reason, the lawn is a big deal. So for you, there is some reason that the lawn is something that you've decided. You're not going to try to get a certain kind of accolade or status or admiration from the neighborhood. You're just going to be, you're still going to do it. Well, you're not making it look messy. You're doing it well, but you're able to enjoy it. So I think. That's where the, the really incredible self reflection of why did I let status go there, but I can't let status go over here, whatever over here is, you know, and can I with my work or my this or my that, whatever it is that you're striving for, for value. How is it that you can somehow mimic kind of the mowing the lawn into those areas that you're wanting to let go of status and achievement, because you're still going to do a great job. That's what we love so much about healthy threes.

37:17 Balancing Achievement and Enjoyment

Beth 38:28

It's not that we're saying, you know, just sit down and don't do anything, you know, no, we, God created you to do. Excellent stuff, but it's in the excellence of being and enjoying the gifting that God is giving you. That is actually going to have a much larger ripple effect in your personal life and the lives that you touch. Does that kind of make sense?

Tyler 38:51

For sure. No, that makes, that makes total sense.

The Struggle of Letting Go

Tyler 38:56

And sometimes it's not even the doing and achieving is not even a tied to trying to find value. It's just, uh, it's something that threes can't even describe. It's this, uh, this, the, maybe the pleasure that comes from treading water and moving things forward. And I caught myself last night, even, uh, I, so I'm like, I always send my email out my weekly email out on Tuesdays. And yesterday I had to do another podcast with somebody. And I saw that as sort of an interruption to my, to my getting stuff done. And so I was working on a YouTube video at like eight o'clock at night. And in the video is how to love each type. And when I got to type three, I said for your type threes, remind them that working on things at seven or eight o'clock at night is not urgent. It's not an urgent thing. And as soon as I said that, I was like, well, I'm doing that right now. I'm working on something at eight o'clock at night. I got to repent and shut this thing down and go upstairs and go watch a show with my wife and just sit and be with her. And she always. You know, she said last night, Hey, you've been coming upstairs a lot lately at this time every night. And so reminding me that I'm, I'm, I'm getting off, of course I'm slipping, slipping, um, living out of line with the gospel and, uh, all that to say. Repentance is so hard for three because it's we got to let go. It's like ones have those unachievable standards that they need to let go of for for me. It's like if I don't finish this project tonight and I have to send my weekly email out a day later that things aren't going to fall apart that I'm not going to get so behind that I'll never be able to catch up and feel like I'm. Not a somebody, somebody anymore, an achiever anymore. It's just like, those small moments, daily decisions of letting go, and letting yourself get behind your goals, or your timeline, is like, so, so difficult. Um, but when we can let go, there's so much, uh, pleasure. We can, yeah, we can get out of that, that, that treadmill. Get off that

Beth 41:10

treadmill. Yeah. And I, and like I said, like, I think this is for, you know, anyone that's listening that, you know, as a type three or with a type three is to find those things that you have let go of and that you have found pleasure in, um, just kind of like your mowing, like, okay, well, what's so different about this and why, and why can't that be the same in other areas of my life and how can, how can I integrate some of those same aspects into something else that I typically hold in. Too tight on, um, I think it'd be really, really great for people to kind of move forward in that direction. Um,

Parenting and the Enneagram

Beth 41:46

okay. The last thing I want to bring up, because I just think so many people are in this place that you brought up, um, that your, uh. You have a middle school son, right? What

Tyler 42:00

is my oldest son is in middle school right now. Yeah. He's a counterphobic

Beth 42:03

six. Yes. Okay. So he's a counterphobic six, which for those of you that are out there, um, sixes have this underlying fear of being without security guidance and support being abandoned, being blamed, targeted, and they want security guidance and support. Um, and yeah. They want to do it by predicting negative outcomes and making sure that those don't happen, but also having community, having loyalty, faithfulness, a group of people that they can trust, that, that trust them. Um, and so sixes are very different than threes, right? Their, their goals, their desires, what they're aiming for, how they think. Um, and then as a counter phobic six. Um, the phobic sixes out there have all those fears and anxieties and they succumb to them. The counter phobic is like, no way I'm moving headlong into it. And so they actually kind of look like type eights. Um, they can look rebellious, they can look obstinate, they can, um, yeah, they can be Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of tricky to be honest. And I'm married to one, um, obviously a older, healthier version of one. Um, but so what you had mentioned is that sometimes you find yourself really challenging your son to be successful, to get out there and try new things. Cause what you found is that he just. Loves hanging out with his friends. He's not really into extracurricular activities like you were. And so you can have this fear inside of like, well, what if he grows up and he has regrets? Cause all he's doing is hanging out with friends, but he's not like, uh, building something or becoming something and something particular. And so. What I've heard you say is like, you know, I want to spur him on. I want to encourage him, but I also know that that can also, you can butt heads, you know, with that. And so what's one to do. So I'd love to just kind of talk that through.

Navigating Relationships Using the Enneagram

Beth 44:00

Can you kind of share a little bit more about the dynamic? And then I'd love to paint a picture for our audience to hear. Um, in the, what we call the dance, which is like the infinity loop and how to really navigate relationships when using the Enneagram.

Tyler 44:16

I'd love to chat about that. And the Enneagram has been so helpful when parenting and I've been able to like send uh, teachers like tips, uh, for him because, because I know his Enneagram type. I know it's really difficult sometimes to type children, but, um, there's just been a lot of patterns. enough patterns over the years that, you know, we, we think there's a high probability that is counterphobic six. And, uh, and so I know as a three parent, I know that the temptation is to want to, to live through my kids. And, and so I know that's a temptation. And so I'm trying to balance that every day and it's really difficult. Because it's hard to know where my desires and his desires begin and end. Sure. Because the way that I think about it is, I want him to be successful and play football. And enjoy that experience of being on a team. You know, like your husband Jeff did that. And I want him just to enjoy that. I don't want him to miss out on some of the things that I experienced in high school. Being on the football team, wrestling team, and some of those things. So I don't want him to miss out. But I got to remember that his life is different. He might find pleasure in pursuing other things. And it's so hard to remind myself of that. And so he loves his friendships. It's a counterphobic six. It's like he loves his game. He loves his wolf pack. He loves hanging out, hanging out with his friends. So the first. Day of practice, he actually was like catastrophizing like, Oh no, all my best friends are going to the mall to hang out. And now I got football practice today for the first time. And I don't want to go to football practice. Like I want to be with my friends. And I said, no, you just signed up. You got to, you got to do this. I mean, you can't quit the first day of football. The first day of practice, you're going to miss out on all these things. And he was just, the sky was falling. He was crying. Cause he's like, I'm going to miss out on my friends. And I couldn't relate because. As in high school, I'm like, yeah, my friends hanging out would be great, but like, we got stuff to achieve. We got stuff to do. We got the, you know, we got to make it to state this year. And all those, those things that, that I think have thought about and want him to think about. So it's led to some tension in our relationship. And, uh, that's why I brought it to you is because it's, it's a struggle to know exactly how to not live through him and let him live his own life, but still not let him be lazy either because it's a counterphobic six. He's like, if he doesn't like a teacher, uh, he, he's like, Oh, they're bad authority. I'm not

The Role of Trust in Parenting

Tyler 46:46

going to follow them. I'm not going to do any homework for them. I'm not going to obey them in class. Like, why would I, because they're about authority and it just makes super sense to him. And so teaching him how to. Respect authority, even bad authority has been one of like the teaching lessons. I think the angrams helped me to see that that's a pattern in counterphobic sixes lives is trouble with authority. So it's been really helpful to have those conversations with them. Um, but I still, I still need to release my plans for him every single day to let him live his life. And, um, if he doesn't want to play high school football. And then I got to be okay with that. I got to get rid of those dreams of me being on the sidelines and enjoying that experience as a parent. Uh, it's something I want, but I need to let that go and let him live his life. It's it's yeah, it's really hard.

Beth 47:39

Yeah. I was going to say that I was going to ask, like, is that. Is that really hard? And I think the, the thing that I love for people to understand and hear as they're listening is that all nine types come into parenting with very specific hopes and dreams and goals and. You're like, this is the way that the kids should be raised or this is how they should go. I mean, for me, you know, for type nines, we're raising, um, we're trying to raise little angels per se. So they need to be kind and empathetic and compassionate and always thoughtful and listening to people. And like, that's what I'm training them to be. Um, so we're all training our kids to be little versions of ourselves in some form or fashion, whether we realize it or we don't. The tricky part really kind of comes in when we do realize it and we're actually trying our best. To give them space. And I think it's, it's, and you know, this, so I'm not really necessarily saying this to you. Um, but it's a combination, right? Like God gave your sons to you as a type three, because they need. Some of those great attributes that the three will give them and God gave you them to help soften, to be more authentic, to be more real. So it's this both and, um, but it's so hard, it's so hard. I mean, as a type nine, it's like, I mean, it's just conflict. Like, I mean, the whole point of a nine is okay. If everyone is happy, then I can be okay. Well, okay. Then just don't ever be a parent because they're never okay. Right. They're never happy. Um, you know, to the degree that at least that I want them. And so it's just like, I'm always failing. Um, but that's just simply not true. And so it's helping our mind wrap around. Okay. What is it that I'm trying to achieve and accomplish? Um, Through my kids and what, what part of that is good and right and, um, that I should move forward in and what part am I over emphasizing or getting stuck in and it will always be this dance. And so I wanted to paint the picture of the infinity loop, but we call the dance and this is for any relationships and we use it and are becoming us. Course. so@becomingus.com, we have 45 courses, one for each couple type combination. So you can use it, you know, when you're in a married relationship or pretty much, I mean, it's kind of for quote unquote under the, the realm of marriage. But really you can use it for any relationship. So for your specific situation, we're talking about you and your son. And so when you take the infinity loop, okay, each loop is a type, so you're the type three. He's the. Kind of hope is six and inside the loop is their core motivation. So what gets ignited inside the driving force behind why you think, feel, and behave. Now, if you put a line horizontally through that infinity loop below that line is your heart condition, whether you recognize it or not, things are being stirred up and happening. And what happens is then. At the top of the loop above the line is behaviors. Okay. Or what comes out of us? So first you get activated, whether positively or negative from your core motivations. And what comes out of that are certain behaviors. Now the behaviors are going to come out all depending on whether you're. Healthy average or unhealthy or aligned with the gospel misaligned or out of alignment. And so as those behaviors come out, they'll then slip down into the bottom side of the other loop, which is the other person's Uh personality type and they're going to get activated right based on their personality perspective And then their behaviors come out. So We'll take the scenario of the three and the six. Okay, and what we're talking about here and we'll We'll paint the first perspective from the kind of the average to the not so healthy point of view, like just autopilot, right? We're just going through life as is. So for you, it's like, Oh my goodness. Like I want my kid, you know, to do great. I want him to have all the best things, which is a great thing, positive thing. I want him to Excel and to achieve. And I want him to have all the blessings. And part of that is, is doing all these things and experiencing all these things. And so that's. Part of a desire of the three, right? The desire to excel, to achieve, um, to create, to have value. So you're being activated in one sense. So then your behavior could be not saying that it is, could be that you're pushing him, you need to do this, you need to do that. You need to look this way. So people, you know, Um, you know, they think this way of you and you get this far in life. Well, that's going to land on a six as not being authentic, not being real. Um, it can feel to them as shady. Um, and I want nothing to do with that basically is like, especially a counterphobic six, and not only that, they're going to be like. Uh, heck no. Thank you. And they're going to be, they're going to push. So, so what, what's happening in the six is sixes are all about being authentic to be real. They're, they think they think of themselves as realist. Some of us. Experience them at times as being pessimist, but to them, they're realist. And so they want to be real in the moment with those that mean the most to them. And so for you, you're like, Hey, let's go and do all these things in life and let's Excel and let's get yourself ready for the next season of life. And where do you want to be in five or 10 years, which is great. And so we got to do these things to get there. Well, he is fixated on friendships, loyalty, commitment, duty. Um, Which is part of kind of survival mentality for the six, like you said, you know, the wolf pack. And so. He is hearing you ask him to go against his realistic, authentic self to become something that he, whether, you know, it's just, he's 12, 13 year old, he can't see, you know, the future, whatever, um, but he doesn't see what you see. And so his behavior is going to come out as being obstinate, resistant, uh, rebellious pushback, especially if you try to pull him apart or pull him away from that friend group or that loyalty group. And so then, then we go from his behavior on that side of the infinity loop down to yours, and it's only going to ignite. The similar things, but only could acerbate it more. So what we try to do with the, the dance, the infinity loop is to say, okay, what is the dynamic that's going on and how can we infuse a gospel center perspective and how can we paint a different picture where, where God. He knows where your son is going to be in 15, 20, 50 years from now. And what does that mean for you? How can you move from a certain position of the three into a new, healthier position of the three? And what would that even look like? So, and then as you do that, it doesn't mean he's going to necessarily change right away. He could be still obstinate for a while. I would love to kind of paint a picture I love for you to describe, okay, what, what could it look like for me to still. Be his dad, be a type three pain of vision, but also instill in him this sense of, but I do want you son to trust yourself, but at the same time also lean on those that you can trust. And I am one of them. Because I've got your back and I see the VAT, the core values you have, and I want to champion your core values as you live them out while also trusting that I have good things for you as well. So let's kind of just paint that picture of that infinity loop. So what would it look like? You're still wanting, you're still a three, you're still wanting great things for him and success. And you know that. He's going to eventually be an adult and he's going to have to be out there on his own. And you're trying to get him to that place. What does it look like now to see your desires and how can you come around that infinity loop with certain behaviors that hopefully will then land on that counterphobic six heart in a way that matches. Who he is so that when his behaviors come out, they're also getting aligned up with yours as well.

Tyler 56:28

Yeah. Well, I'll take any advice from you, Beth, as I can, as I process this. Um, but you're right when, so when he decides to go to his friend group and not play football or not. Devote him to extra himself to extracurricular activities. It comes down to my, my fear of failure. And I think that, well, now he's going to miss out, um, on so much in the future. If he quits football right now in seventh grade. It means that he's not going to ever play again in high school. He's going to miss out on the next five years. And then he's going to come back to me later in life and say, dad, why didn't you push me harder? That was just a seventh grader. You should have pushed me harder to stick with it. And so now I feel like a failure as a parent. And so just that, that. That fear of failure just is, yeah, is that bottom end of the infinity, like you said. So what I've tried to do, and you can give me more help on this, but I would try to do is compromise more and say, okay, why don't you try this thing out for a couple of weeks and see if you see if you like it or not. And if not, that's fine. Like I will. Not push for, for my way or for what I want for you, but at least, at least you can try it. So try to meet him halfway. It that that compromise is really helpful, I think. And that's sort of what we did this fall. And, uh, it's, it's going pretty good so far and I'm not worried about the future, but I know those things are going to continue to. That's it's to come up where my greatest fear of being a failure at accomplishing enough in life. I'm going to project that onto him and push and keep pushing him in that direction as well. So I just need all the help I can get to not not do that.

Beth 58:19

Yeah. And I think another big thing, um, and you know, this is just as well as, you know, anyone is what we call the, um, interpretive childhood message. And I call it interpretive because you're not out there saying, son, don't trust yourself. Right? Like that is, that is not the message you are trying to infer, but. There's this, um, interpret this, yeah, this interpreted childhood message. So we are bringing in the environment, understanding and knowledge and the words that people are saying to us, and it gets filtered through this record player that we have in our mind. And for the six, that message is don't trust yourself. And. I think the biggest thing that we can do as parents is understand what these messages are and how can we counteract them in ways that are actually being heard by them through their personality lens versus how we would go about it. so let's talk about how you are You have the desires, you're a parent, you're giving him the best of who you are. And as you're doing that, like, Hey, let's try this sport or let's try piano or whatever it is. And I also want to lean into you trusting yourself. In making these decisions, whether it's to stay with it or to not stay with it, but that there are positive and negative consequences for staying with it and not staying with it, like no matter what, he's making decisions either way. Right? So if he stays with it, he will have less time with his friends. If he doesn't stay with it. Well, then he can't do that thing moving forward in life, but yes, he'll have more time with his friends. There's always decisions being made one way or the other. And so how, how is your coming alongside him saying to him? I want to listen to you. And the wisdom you and the discernment you have in your heart and trust you at the same time, I want you to trust me as your loving father, who isn't wanting you to make decisions that could ultimately frustrate you in the future. So what do you think that would look like with him? Like, would that be something he would even entertain? I mean, I know we're talking about. A seventh grader, but what would that conversation look like? And what do you think he would do with that?

Tyler 1:00:51

Yeah. Knowing he's a counterphobic six and knowing there's a trust thing. I've tried to, uh, have conversations around that, like, Hey, uh, you know, I, I really love that you enjoy hanging out with your friends and I want that to be your happy place, your safe place. Always. But there's more to life that you've have gifts, you're wired a certain way. The three hats, three hat on. Uh, so trust me, please trust me to try some of these things. Uh, and then usually how it, how it goes is he's like, well, daddy, daddy, just don't understand. Dad, uh, very like four ish kind of talk. Like, you just don't know me or you don't understand. Can't see things my way. And I'm sure a lot of other kids say that as well, right? But I think, I mean, as we're, as we're talking, what I need to keep doing is keep building trust with him, uh, and say things like, yeah, you should try some of these things and trust yourself, trust that you're going to find something that you're really going to click with and that you're really going to enjoy. But I need you to keep trusting me that I'm going to try a lot of different things in life because there's, there's so much out there. But I think that you'll find enjoyment in outside of, in addition to your friends, not in competition with your friends, but in addition to your friends. So, so trust me. And if I ever feel like, if you ever feel like I'm pushing you against your will, then that's not, that's not okay. That's not okay for me to do. And I don't want to lose your trust. And so you got to trust me that I'm going to keep pushing you to do what you want to do, not what I want you to do. And. Yeah. Just to continue to cultivate trust as a dad, uh, so that he, he trusts me and he sees that there's a pattern of me fighting for him, not pushing him into my, me living through him. Yeah.

Beth 1:02:48

Oh man. I love that. That is so awesome. I'm so excited. I mean, like just, I'm like, Hey, can we like fast forward and see the update? Let's just look like five years or now. Um, no, I think that's really, really awesome. And. I, I am thankful for you being that kind of dad, you know, that's, um, it's hard for all of us parents to recognize the gifts that we bring from our personality perspective and type and the, um, shortcomings, the things that we don't see, the things that just naturally come out, um, that we really think we're giving you our best, you know, but. You know, in a due time, you know, all kids are going to have to work things out that we did and didn't know. Um, so we always like, yeah, just put another 20 in the counseling jar.

Tyler 1:03:41

You know, we have, we have college funds. We need to have like therapy funds growing, growing

Beth 1:03:46

interest. Hey, we're on this side of heaven. Like we're doing our best, you know? Um, anyway, with that, I just want to thank you so much for. You know, the work that you're doing on behalf of, um, the Enneagram from a gospel center perspective community, um, the things that you're spearheading, the things that you're putting together, the journals that you have written, which there are nine of them, um,

Tyler 1:04:10

I know eight, uh, the eighth one's coming out, uh, December, but the ninth one will be out here spring of next year. So finishing that five year, five year project is

Beth 1:04:23

about to be so type eight is coming out in December. And what's the last one that's coming out? Okay. So type fives, you know, you gotta wait. I know it's going to be hard, but everyone else from December on all nine or all eight up until. Spring are out and you can get those at gospel for any gram. com and, uh, Tyler, tell them one more time, the coupon code for the real history of the Enneagram course that you've got going on. And yeah, so what code and then it's 50 percent off, right? Yep.

Tyler 1:04:56

Tylerzak. com slash history and YEC made it really easy for you for your Enneagram coach. YEC is the coupon code in the checkout that will get you 50 percent off the course today. And you can become an expert in Enneagram history within the next 24 hours.

Beth 1:05:12

That is amazing. I love it. Thank you so much for doing all that work. I, I just. I'm literally amazed in Florida, the things that you accomplish. I really do. Like, I'm like, man, you're killing it as a three. You're like, oh, but I really do think it, I just, I really admire all the things that you have been doing and I'm grateful.

Tyler 1:05:32

Well, threes are very, uh, appreciative of mentors. They're appreciative of role models. They can look up to, uh, people that have empowered them. And so that's what you and Jeff are to me and you guys. This was five years ago. You said yes to writing a forward to my book before I had any Instagram channel before I was a note, you know, before I was, you know, did anything. And so you guys coming around inside of me to support me, uh, would just meant the world to me and I'll never forget that. Oh, thank

Beth 1:06:02

you. Well, thanks Tyler. It's been a pleasure having you. Okay. So what were some of my insights as a coach? Well, as you heard, Tyler said, Beth, I threw you a softball and it was true. Like I'm listening to certain things that he's saying and trying to really reflect on how much of that is, you know, an Enneagram three, not maybe really contemplating and thinking things. Through and just wanting to move forward to the next thing. And so for him, just highlighting, Hey, we need to look back. We need to observe to create those rumble strips in our life. So that when we do hit that again, that we're alerted, we are aware that we can course correct instead of going to that same trajectory time and time again. So I wanted to reflect that back to him. And as you heard, he was like, Yep. You're absolutely right. I tend to not find value in the past, but there's so much value that I can really think through in mind to help me in the future. So that was just one thing that I thought, you know what, I want to, you know, push back on that and see how that resonates with him. Um, and then of course, you know, being a type three with a counterphobic, uh, six son, you know, there are certain messages that the six is looking for. And I know Tyler was wanting to give those to his son. And at the same time, the three can sometimes push and come across as like, have you really thought through everything? Have you really planned? And that can come across as, uh, I don't think you've. You should do that. You shouldn't trust yourself only. Listen to me. So us having that conversation, I wanted to see, uh, what Tyler thought in that, uh, process as well. I really encourage you guys going over and experiencing what he has at gospel for Enneagram use the coupon code. YEC, if you want to get the real history of the Enneagram course from him. Um, and for those of you that love the Enneagram and you want to move from an Enneagram, uh, enthusiast to expert coach, then take our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. And for those of you that are like, man. I would love to have a coach. I would love to have someone guide me and, and kind of mirror back some things as I work through and process what's going on in my own life. Then go get yourself a certified Enneagram coach. We've got so many great people, um, at my Enneagram coach. com. That's my Enneagram coach. com. Well, guys. As always remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It's the gospel that transforms us. And I'll see you again next week.