Beth 1:11

Hey everyone. Welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McChord, your Enneagram coach and at YEC, we desire for you to use the Enneagram so that it will bring real and lasting transformation in your life and relationships. But we're also deeply committed in training and raising up the next generation of amazing Enneagram coaches. Now, each episode, I get to interview a special guest, but we're also going to highlight Enneagram coaching in our conversation. And this will demonstrate to you the power that the Enneagram can have in our lives to bring real transformation. Plus at the end, stay tuned because I'm going to pull back the curtain and share with you some of my thoughts that I had during the conversation, kind of a sneak peek into a coaching mindset. So stay tuned for that. It's kind of a fun, uh, just. Um, but also if you enjoy our podcast, we really, um, ask that you press, like you subscribe and that you review. So other people can find our podcasts were on YouTube. So if you'd like to watch podcasts, then find us out at your Enneagram coach, uh, and on YouTube. Okay. So for those of you that are Enneagram enthusiasts, and you're thinking about moving into being an Enneagram expert coach, then we recommend that you try our mini course for free at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. And that will show you what becoming Enneagram coaches. All about, um, we have a course called become an Enneagram coach. We'd love for you to join us there, but if you're like Beth, that's just too much, I'm just looking for my own personal growth. Great. Then we have so many amazing coaches and you can find one of these coaches at my Enneagram coach. com again, that's my Enneagram coach. com. Well, today I have a very special guest that I'm so excited to, uh, I don't know. I can't say I'm going to introduce you to him because, you know, he was, uh, the one that launched our YouTube podcast. Um, we've known Jeff, uh, McCullough, which is who I'm inviting on. Uh, we've known Jeff McCullough for 20. Plus years now. Um, and he is just one of the most amazing people that I have ever met. So Jeff McCullough is going to be again on our podcast today. And let me just kind of tell you a little bit about Jeff, cause he's doing some amazing work. Well, Jeff is a pastor with the Christian and missionary Alliance. He is the creator of the well known YouTube channel called Hello Saints, where he chronicles his journey and learning about the church of Latter day Saints from a. Uh, Protestant evangelical perspective. Now his goal, and we're going to talk about this a little bit, is to really broker a more healthy, curious interlog with evangelicals and Latter day Saints. He is married to Joy and they have four children and they grew up and lived in St. Louis, Missouri area, but they've just recently located to the Salt Lake city area. He completed his undergrad degree in digital media from free Methodist school called Greenville University and received a master's in biblical studies from Moody Theological Seminary in Chicago. He also co runs a video production company and they are amazing. They're based out of St. Louis and it's called likely. Well, my Jeff, Jeff McCord and I, like I said, have known Jeff McCullough and his wife joy since 2014. Yes. We were babies and they were babies basically. Um, and I can't wait to bring you guys on to hear more about what he is doing in life. So let me bring them on Jeff. It is so great to have you on the podcast.

Jeff 4:50

Hey friend, it's good to be here. And by the way, I think you said 2014. It was 2002 that

Beth 4:57

Oh, I think I thought, Oh, well, I meant to say 2004, but yeah. So was it, Oh, was it 2002? I think you're right. No, you're right.

Jeff 5:05

Back when we were all like in our early to mid twenties.

Beth 5:08

Whoo. Crazy, crazy, crazy. Now we're like, like gray hair, right?

Jeff 5:13

Yeah. You know, we're living

Beth 5:14

old. Um, well, yeah. So Jeff and I have just so enjoyed you enjoy. And, um, just the work that you guys have done throughout. All of your life, but I really want to highlight what is going on right now. So you were working for us, your Enneagram coach. And then about a year ago, uh, you stopped working for us and you had already launched HelloSaints on YouTube the spring prior, and it was really taking off. So tell me about that journey and what you're doing right now. Okay.

Jeff 5:49

Yeah. So, um, you know, I think the, the pandemic did a number on a lot of us when it comes to just taking an inventory on our lives. Um, once we sort of stopped, we, we were forced to kind of break our stride of the normal routine of life and what we were committed to. And, um, part of that process for me as a career pastor was, um, recognizing that there was some unique opportunity that existed by blending. ministry and media. You know, it was something that people toyed with or maybe larger ministries or churches did. But when we were all forced to do that during the pandemic, uh, at each individual church, I found it to be sort of an interesting trailhead, if you will. And it coincided with Uh, an unexpected adventure or journey out to, uh, the, the national parks out west. We stayed with some friends in Salt Lake City, and I, for the first time, was, uh, made aware of the culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in Utah. Now, I, I vaguely knew what that church was all about, but, um, didn't, didn't know very much, and as I started to do more research and, and to, You know, just was praying about even different ministry opportunities the Lord might be inviting us into. I started to recognize that there wasn't a lot of healthy conversation between evangelicals and Latter day Saints online. There weren't even resources necessarily.

Beth 7:25

And when you, when you say healthy conversations, what does, what does that look like? So I'm sure for a lot of people, that means a lot of different things.

Jeff 7:33

Yeah, there's two layers to it. One is just historically. Um, members of the LDS church, which many of us know them as, as the Mormon church, although they, they don't really go by that, that name any longer. Um, historically there's just always been a strain. We're going all the way back to the Midwest and we're talking the 1830s, 40s, 50s. And there's always been sort of a hostile posture toward one another. Now that's cooled over the last, you know, 50 years or so. And yet when it comes to just general apologetics. Uh, there, there hasn't been a lot of more curious relational, um, opportunities for open dialogue as much as there's been a lot of debating.

Beth 8:18

Hmm.

Jeff 8:19

And the reason why I think that's problematic is because we, we're settling at that point for sort of a, a monolithic idea of our individual persuasions and it's over, it's oversimplified to a certain extent, you know, the evangelical church or the Mormon church and what gets lost in that regard are the people. And where I recognize the need for maybe a healthy, more curious conversation, um, in the face of what we might more naturally gravitate toward. And that is a critical conversation. Um, and we can get into this field if you want a little bit, but I, I've, um. Found a great deal of freedom and healing through, um, IFS EIP parts work. Uh, my wife is, uh, she's got a degree in professional counseling. Um, you and Jeff have been key in my life in just helping me understand. What healing can look like when we're open to even certain just like therapeutic counseling modalities that help us unlock certain parts of our lives. And, and one of the keys to all of that is moving beyond sort of a shame based way of trying to change behavior, deal with issues and a more compassionate, um, curious regard for ourselves. And that's really what launched Hello Saints. As I was finding healing as an individual, and as I felt that I was stepping into what seemed like a less healthy interfaith space, the, the secret sauce to Hello Saints that I think has made it as appealing to as many people as it has been, is I used the, uh, the catchphrase We're here to fight criticism with curiosity. So we would normally enter into an interfaith Dialogue, you know, religion and politics, right? The two things you don't talk about at Thanksgiving, right? So I've got a YouTube channel. We're going to talk about it

Beth 10:27

Yeah.

Jeff 10:27

do we guard ourselves from things getting out of control? Well, we fight and it literally means like fight the critical impulses We have with a very effective tool of curiosity asking questions Not pretending to have all the answers but opening the door to relationship and it has just so So, um, clearly resonated with specifically members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints where this pastor is now here to understand and be understood as opposed to prove them wrong and take down their church.

Beth 11:03

yeah. Yeah. That's huge. I mean, I would say everyone's taught to do the opposite, right? Like to try to shut it down, you know, or to discredit them, um, kind of in our, in our own self preservation or I'm going to protect God, you know, like I, I'm going to, I'm going to be the one to save the day. Would you agree? Like that's kind of like the typical mode

Jeff 11:29

100 percent and and what gets lost when we take that approach. Um, one of my keystone moments in the New Testament that I'm always rallying around when it comes to these conversations is Jesus's conversation with the woman at the well, he was breaching so many cultural norms or expectations and even doctrinal norms and expectations to engage in a woman who he probably shouldn't have been talking to, who is a Samaritan, who anybody else around him wouldn't want to talk to. And as, as they have this conversation, he bypasses their doctrinal disagreements to connect with her as a person. And that, that's risky, and it's dangerous, and it isn't the norm in the evangelical world, because as those who are proselytizing the gospel, we feel it is an incumbent on us to go after what we might perceive as false doctrine or something that's not biblical. And yet, When we're willing to, at times, set those disagreements aside, it disarms the temperature in the room and, and brings an openness to just connect on a human level and on a personal level. And, and I think that, um, it requires boldness and courage because, um, it gets a little unpredictable when you do that, but I'm just finding it to be not only deeply meaningful to people, but even for me personally. It requires me to that much more have to rely on the Holy Spirit to, to walk through, uh, situations that aren't quite as methodical and are a little bit more dynamic.

Beth 13:11

Yeah. So kind of take us through what you're doing with HelloSaint. So it's on YouTube. So what, what's kind of the, the idea behind it or what, what exactly are you doing? Let's say like on an average YouTube, uh, video.

Jeff 13:27

So there's a few different ways I approach content. Um, the first is by just by simply exploring. Asking questions, you know, leading with curiosity, and that might look like me, um, watching a video of a presentation of Latter day Saint doctrine and saying, okay, here's what I'm, this is what I'm hearing. Here's what I think we would align with in the Protestant evangelical world. And here's where we would disagree. And we leave it at that. Um, in some cases I actually go to Latter day Saint, uh, sites, or even gatherings, whether it be a historic site in Palmyra, New York, Nauvoo, Illinois, or somewhere in Utah. And I ask questions. What, why is this significant to Latter day Saints? What is important about this area? How does it tell the story of the Latter day Saint heritage and tradition? Um, and then other ways that I do it is I engage their scriptures. There's a few videos that I'm making where I'm reading through the book of Mormon and just providing my reaction as a pastor. Uh, I invite Latter day Saints onto the channel and we have interfaith dialogue. And maybe the best way to sum it up is to say. It might be difficult or there might be too many hurdles or maybe an intimidation factor for a Latter day Saint to go out of their way to sit down with an evangelical pastor. So the hope with Hello Saints on YouTube is to say, okay, well, then I'll just, I'll come to you and I'll do it in a way that is inviting as opposed to, uh, just kind of wagging my finger.

Beth 14:58

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you had said, you know, before we got on to the podcast and I love for you to kind of unpack this thought, cause you were saying you're in no man's land, which refers, you know, to the world war, um, of literally no man's land and not everybody knows what that reference goes to, but so can you kind of unpack like what you meant by that? Like the position you hold, what, what you're trying to accomplish? Cause I. I think, and we kind of talked about, you said a few seconds ago, but I just, I think that wording really encompasses who you are and what you're trying to do.

Jeff 15:34

Yeah. You know, I think many of us find ourselves, um, too often living confined by or feeling the pressure to, to please those around us within our sphere, within our specific area of operation. And it, It can be scary to step out of that, just in general, because it can be lonely, it can be isolated. But when you have two groups who typically don't interact, it's necessary. Someone's gotta cross that wasteland that has a history. Of pain and wounds and, um, fear to say, can we, can we clear all this out? And it's not for the purpose of just blending. This isn't about, you know, holding arms and saying kumbaya, but it really is understanding that Jesus who, you know, this is Philippians chapter two. He didn't consider equality with God, something to be grasped, but he humbled himself, he left his throne and entered in, you know, John chapter one, he, he, he made his dwelling among us. And, um, and I think that when, when we're really

Beth 16:49

transfer

Jeff 16:50

availing ourselves to meaningful conversations, it requires us to step out of our comfort zones and maybe even step into areas that, that were previously, um,

Beth 17:02

um, and

Jeff 17:03

too dangerous or, or, um, not productive. And. When I launched Hello Saints, I didn't know how well received it would be. In fact, I was doing a lot of work for you guys at the time. Um, I think I was six months into helping you guys out. It was just a little passion side

Beth 17:20

Yeah.

Jeff 17:21

Um, but the fact that, that it, the willingness to step out there and have the conversation, I think is what has been so meaningful to Latter Day Saints. Where I can say, guys, I disagree with you. But I still want to understand you and I still want to see how we can love one another and see Christ clearly and, um, and to me, that really just comes down to like attuning to one another and just recognizing, you know, where we might have certain, um, cultural, religious or doctrinal convictions that, There's, there are other needs and wants under the surface that if we can align with, then we're connecting on a, a human level, on a person level. And I think that's, that's what HelloSaints has been able to do.

Beth 18:08

Yeah. So it's Hello Saints, um, but your website is a little bit different. So I mean, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see it right underneath his name, but why don't you tell everyone else that's just listening, like in the, in the car or wherever they're listening?

Jeff 18:25

Yeah. So, I um, I run a non profit called HelloCreative, and it, It's essentially the, the organization that sort of oversees the content creation on Hello Saints. And the desire is to take this, again, this, this attempt or this, this approach of trying to be more emotionally healthy. an interfaith dialogue,

Beth 18:51

Bye.

Jeff 18:51

um, or in just a religious context in general, that, uh, the organization Hello Creative, that's, that's sort of the heart behind it. Right now, its main, um, area of content creation is Hello Saints on YouTube, but there's a desire for us to, if we can, you know, raise funds and scale for this to be a broader effort to explore spaces that Are typically too dangerous, um, or are risky, but an emotionally healthy approach to connect on a human level. and see what kind of progress we can make in those conversations.

Beth 19:35

So then the website is, um, hello, creative dot life. right.

Jeff 19:38

right.

Beth 19:39

Yeah. So people are interested in supporting or knowing more guys, that is, you know, the place to go and man, I cannot recommend Jeff McCullough more than to you guys. So. Check out his YouTube channel, uh, check out hello, creative dot live. You will not regret it. Like Jeff is one of my favorite people on this planet. Um, okay. Saying all that, I would love to explore. Okay. So, you know, you were working with us, which we had so much fun. Um, And so, you know, the Enneagram really well, and you're a type six, um, you're very sexy, like Jeff and a lot of our team. Um, but, um, while you were working with us, that's when I came out with the book or Jeff and I came out the book, um, more than your number, which really kind of is a hybrid between internal family systems and the Enneagram, but it creates its own new thing called. Enneagram internal profile, um, which is EIP, which you had alluded to earlier. And it's something that you really have resonated with. Why don't you tell us a lot more about discovering being a six and then walking that journey of understanding IFS and, um, EIP and how that has helped you.

Jeff 21:01

Yeah. I mean, I just feel that we, we too, um, quickly oversimplify ourselves. That's what What internal family systems and your approach to the Enneagram with the, uh, Enneagram internal profile really unlocked for me. And that is to say, we are not simple. We are not one thing. We are complex. You know, we will, we will shift into various personalities. We will, um, in IFS language, different parts of us will step forward to manage or protect us depending on what we have walked through or what we're facing. And that. took me out of this, this cycle of a shame based regard for myself and my situations and even my past and specifically with the Enneagram, I had the the benefit and the privilege of joining the team right when you guys were finishing the book and releasing it. So a lot of even the podcast episodes that I'm, you know, recording and listening to and editing, I'm able to just sort of hear how you guys process the different ways the various Enneagram types Can show up for any of us at any time, uh, and for me, it just, it unlocked so many, um, or maybe I should say provided so many tools for me to reach for in, in a, in a self awareness. state of mind that that allow me to maneuver through situations and Circumstances and relationships in ways that I hadn't been able to do it before and even where I get caught up when I am You know when I take a step back and I'm just processing, you know, what just happened? You know what what happened in that conversation or what's going on in this relationship even going through this process of understanding Well, what parts were showing up? Why were those parts showing up taking that curious compassionate approach has really allowed me to sort of As a six chill a little bit quiet, the internal, uh, voices of that inner committee and to just, um, patiently address what's, what's going on right now. So that that's been super meaningful for me.

Beth 23:23

It sounds like I'm just guessing because it's the same verbiage that you use with working with Hello Saints on both sides is that by doing your own inner work, it has been able to carry over into being able to hold space. And. To appreciate differences and not allow all the voices and the chaos of disagreements to take hold, but to hold a space. Does that feel right?

Jeff 23:49

Yeah. I mean, for somebody, you know, in that sixth space who has that, that core reality of anxiety, um, one of the most empowering questions we can, uh, I don't even, it's not even about asking ourselves, but to just consider in any given situation is, what are you afraid of? Like, what are you afraid of right now? And, and to take them a minute to not just frantically try to push away the fear, but to face it. My goodness, like, that's, that's, when, when a six is able to, to settle there, um, we're covering so much ground within ourselves that was otherwise deferred or neglected out of, you know, the angst. And the same thing goes with interfaith dialogue. It's, it's okay, we disagree about this very core doctrine. Okay, what are we afraid of right now?

Beth 24:48

Yeah.

Jeff 24:48

We can still talk about it. And even if we walk away from this conversation, we disagree. What are we afraid of? Okay. So, um,

Beth 24:56

I think a lot of times, um, I think a lot of, let's say evangelical Christians, cause that's the space that I'm familiar with. So I don't want to speak on behalf of others, but those in the Protestant world, it's like, well, I'm afraid that. You know, they won't know, you know, God in the doctrine or the theology that we have. And so we've got to like convert them or we have to push it onto them. And it's almost like we're trying again to protect God or do something on his behalf as if he can't do it on his own. Like if he wants someone to know him and. To move towards him. He's going to do that work, you know, in their lives. Now, it doesn't mean we just sit back and don't do anything, but I think the approach of being curious and to attuning to one another and having space to dialogue and to love well, and to be warmly present is a much better space for people to. Potentially change than being dogmatic and hard headed and accusatory and judgmental. Now I'm saying all that being, uh, you know, fully aware nine, like, come on guys, we can get along. Right.

Jeff 26:12

Yeah, everything's going to be fine.

Beth 26:14

like, yeah, let's just get along, you know, um, And so I, well, I love what you're saying is that you're, you're not saying, Hey, let's just get along and let's merge with one another. It's Hey, we can disagree and still be warmly present and curious and love one another. And ultimately it is God who changes each of our hearts. And so it's trusting that process, being patient, um, listening to him, seeing where he is leading. Um, And I think just being in community and in people's lives and that loving way, like you just said, it's like when Christ was with the woman at the well, he was warmly present, you know, um, and caring and yeah, just, I love that picture. I think that really, for me, just highlighted, Oh. He demonstrated for us exactly what it looks like to be with someone who's completely not on the same trajectory or viewpoints or, uh, perspective at all. But how can you actually air in a way that's, you know, more, right. I guess.

Jeff 27:22

Yeah, and I think that's where I think things have gotten a little out of balance in a western evangelical mindset. As we rely so much on this cognitive, didactic, um, even like educationally based approach. To faith, whether it be how we disciple or how we communicate the gospel when at the end of the day, it was the heart of Jesus that drew people. It was it was, um, with Nicodemus under the cover of darkness. He didn't go for, like, the fair cycle takedown. He he was really getting at the heart of what neck of what Nicodemus was searching for. And that was to connect with God Almighty. And and. So we, um, this really to me comes down to, to balancing truth and love, you know, and if, if we are too heavy handed with truth, which I think we can, we can do that in the evangelical world, we then we downplay and, and maybe we, we overplay the need to convince people. As opposed to just loving the person for where they are. I mean, how many times did Jesus dine with the prostitutes before he told them to fall on the ground and say the sinner's prayer? I mean, that's, I say that almost tongue in cheek because don't we think he had to have a certain level of tolerance and patience? But it was his presence with them, just being around them, and his willingness to love them for where they were and how they were, rather than trying to to change their minds about anything. And, I mean, there's a place for hard conversations about belief and doctrine, but those conversations will come so much more naturally and be so much more effective when there's rapport and trust and relationship uh, foundationally supporting whatever, you know, tricky doctrinal or, or um, truth claims we need to, to work with.

Beth 29:20

Yeah, um, okay, so let's talk about how your Jeff and Adam from why you see they always call it your sexiness.

Jeff 29:30

Yes. I, yes, those are my boys right there.

Beth 29:33

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I wish everyone could see what all of our sixes are like behind the scenes at YEC. They're hilarious.

Jeff 29:41

mean, I think that's one thing we can't agree on. Right? Like it's the six is we're the funniest.

Beth 29:46

I, I really think so. I think sixes are the funniest. Now I know sevens are gonna say, no, we are. No,

Jeff 29:52

because they're in their six wing, let's be honest,

Beth 29:54

I am serious. Sixes are hilarious. They're sarcastic, they're funny, they're witty, they're down to earth. I mean,

Jeff 30:01

and generally more attractive as well, at least from what I've

Beth 30:04

I love that. Therefore, the sexiness. Right? Um, so. Here you are a type six, right? So six is, you know, the core weakness is, um, anxiety, you know, thinking through all the worst case scenarios, what could happen, trying to prevent, uh, predicted, um, and here you are. You literally, you and your family, you pack your bags and you move to Salt Lake City after literally living in the same town your entire life, um, your whole family is there to venture into this whole new world. And so what was that like as a six to, to take that journey?

Jeff 30:51

Um, terrifying and exhausting,

Beth 30:54

Uh huh. Uh huh.

Jeff 30:55

and at the same time, um, deeply fulfilling and meaningful. When, you know, we were talking a second ago, when a six is able to kind of stare, it's, stare fear in the face, not out of some anxious defiance, but out of a, Uh, peace fueled openness and curiosity. There's so much, um, uncharted territory that we can travel. And, um, as we were anticipating a move out here, um, you know, there, there were so many reasons why I, I could have talked myself out of it, but, but we really just did feel that this was a move that we were supposed to make and, and to complicate things. More as we're transplanting, like you said, from a place we've always lived. Our kids have grown up in the St. Louis area, moving into a truly a cross cultural experience in Utah. People don't realize how different the culture is here. It is incredibly unique, anywhere than you're going to find anywhere in the rest of the country. And then as things start falling into place, about two weeks before we were supposed to move, everything fell apart. So the house that we had put an offer on in Salt Lake City fell through, uh, it wasn't on us, it was on the seller. But we had already sold our home in St. Louis. And there was about a week where, um, my, in, my inner committee was like, Ah, I told you so! Um, and yet We made the decision to say, we're going to keep going because we just really felt, uh, that we needed to do this and sure enough, the, the Lord, he showed up, somebody basically who had no idea what was going on, called us and said, Hey, have you found a house in Salt Lake yet? And we said, no, I said, well, we have a home that we're willing to sell you. Um, and it was too expensive. And then when we told them about the house, it fell through, they were like, well, we'll just sell it to you for the price of that house. It fell through.

Beth 33:04

What. That's

Jeff 33:05

Right. So there's,

Beth 33:07

crazy.

Jeff 33:08

didn't have to change our moving date. So, so here, here I am as a six. Um, being able to rather than that inner committee who's saying, haha, told you so. The Lord in his grace saying you get it now. Like I, I got this. I got you guys. And, um, you know, for me as a. six. Um, the Lord's grace is found going through uncertain situations because he has, he has shown me that the true remedy to a lot of my anxiety is, is really faith. That's how I can counterbalance my anxiety. And when I say faith, I mean, uh, I like to, I like to exchange the word faith for dependence. That's sort of my go to when it comes to faith. Um, when I'm willing to let go of all of the different scenarios in the You know, the scanning the horizon for all the ways things can unfold and to just quite simply depend on what we believe the Lord has for us. Um, there's peace found there. And that's, that's what has really, um, prevailed. And this process for us, um, and also has to be a reminder for me because now that we're out here, there's a whole new, you know, litany of situations we have to face kids settling in at school, finding friends, you know, being in the middle of a culture that I'm engaging with in a different way where not everybody is open to how I'm doing it. And there's a lot of people that don't like what I'm doing. Um, but that's where faith has to come in and counterbalance that anxiety.

Beth 34:47

Yeah, and I'd like to highlight, um, for those that are listening, whether they are sixes themselves, or they know a six and that maybe they're a family member, coworker, best friend, whatever. Um, the things that I'm hearing, you know, kind of as an Enneagram coach, just to highlight is. A six is going to have an inner committee. That's just the nature of it. Meaning like this inner committee is chiming in from all different directions. It's well, what about this? Well, what about that? Did you think of this? Did you think of that? Well, that could happen, but this could happen. Well, everything could happen. You know, it was just like, and all of a sudden the six feels. should I listen to? And so they look outside themselves looking for someone that can trust or a belief system that could trust to guide them into a safe place. You know, like what is the safe direction? What is the right direction? Um, but they're like, kind of looking around, going, who, who can I trust? Um, and so they have a lot of lack of trust. Um, but they're scrambling to find it somewhere. And yet. The invitation for the six is to actually trust themselves and the six is like, but I can't trust myself because I don't know which, which one, but the, the cool thing about it is, yeah, your inner committee is going to be chiming in, but there is. A true part within you that is actually very discerning. Sixes are extremely discerning and wise. They just don't listen to that part or they, they, they mix it with all the other perspectives and think it's part of all of that other stuff, but when they are actually experience more silence and solitude, meaning they're more present with themselves. They're not allowing all the voices to just take over. And they're, like you said, depending or having faith that the Holy Spirit or God will speak in and through them and just taking the time to really process and listen to it. And then follow that through faith, through surrendering, depending they get to see things they never thought was possible. And that's exactly what I'm hearing from you is like, our house fell through. I didn't know what to do. My whole committee had a billion things that was thinking and, and shaming me on or guilty me on. But God knew, and we pressed forward. We, we didn't know how this was going to happen, but he showed up. And that is the growth path of the six is to, to listen inward to what the Holy Spirit is actually directing them and to listen to that discernment, that wisdom that really is there. I mean, like my mom's a six, my husband's a six, my son's a six, my best friend's a six. So many of my, my employees are sixes and I am so. amazed at how discerning and wise sixes are when they trust that part of them and how much we benefit from that part of a six. And so just to hear your story, I just want to, of course, I mean, part of me is like, great job, Jeff, but honestly, I just really want to glorify God, like the work he. Is doing in and through you in and through joy, your family, but not just that, this person who offered you this house, like, when does that ever happen is how you can point everything that God has a purpose and a plan and that he is working in and through you as a family unit, as people, individuals to take steps in areas that are really scary, like truly scary. Um, But he's the one paving the way and you can see that and you're moving forward with trust. Um, and I just want to say that is where growth is for a six and it's super uncomfortable, right?

Jeff 38:32

Very uncomfortable.

Beth 38:35

And a lot of times when we're uncomfortable or something scary for all the nine types, you know, growth is hard. And Joseph Campbell said, um, It's amazing. Quote, uh, the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek. And that goes for all nine types. Like for me as a nine, the cave I fear to enter is conflict, tension, discord, disagreeing with someone, someone disagreeing with me. But honestly, a lot of times when I am present in those conversations and, um, sober minded or, um, emotionally regulated, but have those hard conversations. Those are the best experiences. That's where the most growth happens, but honestly, it's the thing I want to avoid the leap or the most. Um, and so what I'm hearing from you is like the things that you would, your type would truly appreciate you avoiding are these exact steps that you've been taking, would you agree? Silence.

Jeff 39:40

I, rewind literally just three or four months ago, as we were walking through this process and everything had fallen through, um, and I was kind of spinning out in that space of, see, this is, this is why this, yeah, but that, you know, the intercommittees is kind of chattering at me. Um, I. When the house fell through, we immediately began to look at homes in the St. Louis area. Like, well, I guess we're not moving to Utah then. And that's where the Lord really just, um, kind of showed up and said, yeah, listen, like, your ability to see all the different scenarios and to plan accordingly, it's not gonna work this time. You know, it's, I'm, I'm not gonna let any of your ability to kind of, Um, pivot and shift into a scenario that you've already sort of planned for to work. So I had to kind of let your house fall through. I had to, um, put you in a position where you had to move out of your house so that you would fully just know that you can trust that the path that you've been obedient on is a path you can continue to walk and then I will walk it with you. And, um, and you said something a minute ago that Is, is so true for me how, um, how often I find myself looking externally to, to, at the very least have someone not, not just direct me, but even say, yeah, you're doing fine. Like you can keep going the way that you're going. Uh, and one of the people that I've called most of the years is your husband is El Mocordo himself because, um, I, I know that he's, he's just got a lot of wisdom, but I found myself even going through this process. Um, I, I don't think that you guys even knew that the house fell through and some of that other stuff,

Beth 41:26

that's why I'm sitting here. Like if people are watching this on YouTube, I'm like, what? Well, and part of me feels bad because it's like. You guys are so close and dear to us, but through my parents, like health issues, moving them to Nashville, writing a book and now Jeff's health issues, which he's doing great. Um, I didn't know any of this was going on. So I'm sitting here listening to it firsthand as we're going through this. And I'm just honestly, part of me is like, so proud of the growth journey. Cause I've known you for what? 20 some years, the growth journey that I've seen you in all of these years. And. How you have used, you know, obviously everything, but even the enneagram work to know, okay, I have to listen and word. I have to trust what the Holy spirit is guiding me. And so I'm hearing this firsthand. So yes, keep going.

Jeff 42:16

Yeah. no. And, and, um, there's so much value in that. Like, obviously we can't do everything on our own and, um, and it's good to rely on other people, but I think that for six. Especially, you know, you're talking about this is signs of growth. Um, it's really encouraging to hear you kind of affirm that and say that because I need someone outside of me to tell me you're doing well. So I'm kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth here, but at the same time, it's that that is sort of, um, that's so encouraging because as, as we continue forward on this path, and there's still going to be uncertain moments. It's just, it's very important for me to recognize that, um, though it is a strength that we can look at all the various scenarios at the end of the day, it's not, it's not really what works for us, you know, it, it contributes to how we're wired and how we might process through things, but, um, That's why the health pass for the, for the six is going to that nine. It's actually just being willing to kind of let it go, kind of, if, if needed to go with the flow, let things sort of happen and have a piece to know that we're going to work it out as we go.

Beth 43:32

Yeah. And I think what's so amazing, like, and this is why the Enneagram is so dynamic is because a lot of people might, you know, if they were here and I can almost hear people from the audience training, especially six is like, but we should seek counsel. Yes, you should seek counsel. Like there's nothing wrong with you asking my husband for advice or his input. So it's not that that is wrong or right. The end of the day, it's okay. So you have the information from 10 people. 10 different ideas. Well, which one are you going to choose then? You know? And so at the end of the day, it still comes down to what is God calling you to do? What is that inner discernment that you need to listen to and then step out in faith on? Um, And that's, I think that's really what we're talking about here is for the six, that is really scary and really hard because it feels in some ways safer to have someone say, no, follow this direction and then just go in it, especially if it doesn't work out. Well, it's like, well, they said, you know, it's not on me, um, but to trust in the Lord in this process, um, Extremely scary for any of the nine types. Um, but I think especially for the six to then go inward, listen to discern, you know, use, use all of the gifting and skills that God has given you. Um, and at the end of the day, what has God in your gut and your emotions? Cause you're always in your head in your gut and your emotions. What is he pulling you towards? Um, And then go in that direction. Um, and so it's been so fun to hear what God did do and what he still is doing.

Jeff 45:20

Yeah. And I mean, that's really for me in my experience, at least as a six, that's the, the ability to take a step, the ability to, to lean forward and to step out. Um, Is a pretty elusive path for us. At least it has been for me because even when I would take advice, I would be like, well, that's a, that's a good perspective. I should probably talk to these couple of people over here as well. They get their take on it. And so we're moving around a lot, but we're, we're not necessarily moving forward. And, um, we might be addressing certain concerns, but it doesn't always equate to progress and, um, and that's, that's ultimately what six is want and, and desire, but,

Beth 46:09

Well, usually the path that all the nine types take from their type perspective isn't necessarily going to pan out exactly the way they had hoped. So like for you, like it's totally a six thing, like, okay, so I talked to so and so and they had all these ideas, but that just came up with more questions. So now I got to go to these other five people and then those five people, I mean, it just, it becomes a snowball effect of like, well, now I've got. A thousand different ideas and possibilities and directions I should go. Now I'm almost more confounded within myself where, again, getting good counsel is fine, but at the end of the day, recognizing, okay, I have to ultimately discern and, and take the step as a nine. I'm constantly like, okay, I just need to avoid all conflict or make everyone happy. And that'll be okay. That only avoiding conflict only creates conflict. So it's like, I'm not actually getting where I wanted to go. And the same for you. And, and it's the same for all the types you pick their typical mode of fixing something. It actually is going to backfire. And that's why the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek. So what is it that is the growth path for your type? Those that are listening that feels like, Oh no, I couldn't do that because Jeff, that's exactly what you would have said. Like, no, I can't trust myself. There's no way I can have the discernment. And yet God is the one who gives you the discernment, gives you the wisdom internally to then move forward. And so that's why I really just would encourage those who are listening is to learn about your type and learn what it looks like. In the healthy direction for your type, what is, and how that looks really scary and hard, but then start to step out and practice that, you know, trusting the Lord in it. And it's gone. It's just like, you know, like a baby who's trying to walk it. You're going to fall. Sometimes it's not going to go right. And it's never going to go perfect. Like we're on this side of heaven, but that trust, that faith that we put towards God and how he is asking us to grow is going to be, you're gonna learn so much more. So now for you, Jeff, you have this. Quote unquote, this marker in time, if you will, um, you know, this, this place in time where you, when something else, God is asking you to trust, to have discernment, to look inward. What is he pulling you towards in your whole being internally, all the parts within you are saying, no, go get advice from other people. Which again, there's wisdom in that, but at the end of the day, you can go, okay, let's look back to when we moved to Salt Lake city. Let's look at all the ways that looked and felt really unsteady, but God really had a plan on a path. Does that feel true? Like

Jeff 49:04

Oh, yeah. Well, and the other thing too, that I've been learning through this process is, and correct me if I'm wrong, cause you know, you're, you're the guru coach. Of all this, but I, I, from what I understand, at least what I've experienced when things do get bad, sixes can perform pretty good.

Beth 49:21

Oh, amazingly

Jeff 49:22

know how to kick into gear.

Beth 49:23

Yeah. Oh, totally. Because you thought of all the scenarios, like you're almost like you're in your zone, right?

Jeff 49:30

so there's something almost, um, oxymoronic in a way by the fact that we can be so apprehensive and we can have so many reservations that hold us back, when the reality is, if we take a step, and let's say it does come unraveled, we're probably going to perform just fine there anyway, okay? Now, I'm not even talking about the, the faith aspect, depending on the Lord, He's got a plan, like, that's all true. But that's another thing that I'm kind of learning about myself is, um, like, this is still a perilous road for me. I mean, I'm in an interfaith space where Like every day. I mean, today there's a video released on why I'm, you know, a spawn of Satan and I'm, you know, sheep's clothing and there's 10, 000 people agreeing with those comments. So there's obviously going to be a parts of me that are like. Okay, what am I doing? What have I gotten myself into? This is scary, this changes. How do I, how do I please everybody? How do I knock all this down? And just to say, you know what? Just keep, keep your feet moving. Like, stay on the path that you believe that you're supposed to be on. And even if things get tricky and perilous, One, you're probably going to be fine because you do good in situations like this. And two, Lord has put you on this path and he ultimately has you so that's I think another thing about the sixes For the sixes who are listening to just remember like don't forget We usually do pretty well when things get a little bit crazy so

Beth 50:49

Yes.

Jeff 50:50

you can step

Beth 50:50

mean, you're avoiding it at all costs, but when it happens, whoo, you guys are amazing. Yeah. It's, it's a hundred percent true. It's, it's really remarkable. And so going through it and now looking back and going, Oh yeah, I actually, I actually got through that pretty okay. And I had a lot of creative ideas or was able to walk through it. You know, next time it happens, it's going to be okay. And that's so good. Cause it's, it's called self coaching. Right. And really David did that. And this is what we said in more than your number is, you know, David was like, why are you downcast? All my soul put your hope in God. And it wasn't a shame. It was, Hey, you know, I know you're kind of down or things aren't going well, but. You can put your hope in God. So like there's a part of you that's struggling. And then there's another part of you that can encourage and move you forward. Um, and I think that's really helpful.

Jeff 51:38

Well, and there's something that I think that's, that is important to acknowledge as well, and that is it also builds trust in yourself, right? Now, we don't want to over trust ourselves and re you know, be self reliant and everything, because ultimately we need to depend on the Lord, but one of the biggest problems we have as Sikhs is, is trusting ourselves. So the more we

Beth 51:57

Well, I mean, that is literally the record player, the, um, wounded or the interpreted wounded message as a child is. The six is believe people are saying, don't trust yourself and they believe it. So then they don't trust themselves and we need it to be the opposite. Now, not all nine types have that same message. And in fact, they have their own messages, but yes, to your point, the six, we're trying to get them to move in the direction of trusting themselves. Now that it's not putting. We want obviously to trust the Lord first, but part of trusting the Lord is knowing what he's saying within you and what he is prompting you and then to trust that. That's really what we're getting at. And I know you would totally agree with that.

Jeff 52:36

Yeah, well, I mean, to me, it just brings to mind the past talks about how we can rejoice when we recognize that the steps of a righteous person are ordered by the Lord. It's hard for us to walk with joy a lot of times when we're bound up in anxiety, and that's just a promise that like, well, when. We are walking in obedience to the Lord. We can actually walk joyfully and trust ourselves even as we take those steps because we know that the Lord is ordering them.

Beth 53:04

Right. That's so, so true. Um, okay. So where can people find all the things that you're doing? So not only the YouTube channel, but how can they support you? Because this is a nonprofit. Um, this is a calling that you have. So how can people support you on YouTube, but also at your website?

Jeff 53:23

Yeah. So, um, if you go to YouTube just at hello saints, um, you should be able to find it pretty easily and you can watch all the videos that I've been releasing. I'm also on Instagram at hello. saints and um, when it comes to those who might be interested in learning more about the organization and the ministry and how you might support it, you can just go to hellocreative. life and there's even an opportunity not just to give, but to sign up for mailing lists, obviously, and to even directly get in contact with me if you have any questions or if you want to, um, just discuss any aspect of what's behind this ministry. Because it is, it's, it's, It's out of the box and it's, it's a little bit different than a typical, um, interfaith approach. And I would invite anybody who's, uh, interested to check it out and to get a, get a hold of me if you have any questions.

Beth 54:16

That's awesome. Well, thank you for being on the podcast and it's just so good to be with you just because you're such a dear friend of mine, but, um, yeah. So good to be with you. Thanks

Jeff 54:25

Yes. It's so great to see you. Thanks for having me on.

Beth 54:28

Well, that was so much fun having Jeff McCullough on our show today. I hope you really enjoyed it as well, especially if you are a six or, you know, a six. And for me, I was having so much fun listening to him because I can really hear his growth path. So understanding that he's going to have a committee of voices chiming in all the time, but that it doesn't have to control him, that you can be sober minded or you can have emotional regulation, and that you can. Be mindful of what's going on, but also allow the heart to calm down. So moving to the healthy side of nine, um, allowing things to be, to see how it's going to go. And to know that as a six, you are really smart. You have a lot of quote unquote, street smarts in the predicament, in those times that are hard and trying. And so I know that sixes are trying to avoid all avoid that at all costs, but now you can kind of go, okay. When that happens, because life is life, when it happens, I'll be able to show up and show up in a real way to mitigate the problem, to understand and to fix or to come in and help. So six is, um, I just hope that this is an encouragement to you, um, as you go, you know, about your days and you have that inner committee chiming in, don't use it as a shame tool, but use it as a place of, okay. What, what is the truth that I need to be real about? What is the discernment that God is giving me and what is the next step I need to, to have to move forward? Well, again, if you enjoy our, um, podcast, we hope that you'll like and subscribe and you'll rate us that you'll tell everyone about it. Um, we really enjoy bringing these out to you and we hope that more people can find this as a helpful resource. Now if you are like, man, this is great. I want some Enneagram coaching. I think that I, there's a lot of things that, um, could be highlighted or I could understand about myself. Um, I get stuck in or I have common pitfalls that I fall into and I would love to have a coach to help guide me through that. Great. We have a lot of great certified Enneagram coaches. All you got to do is go to my. Enneagram coach. com. That's my Enneagram coach. com. But if you're wanting to become a coach, man, we have got something for you and it's called become an Enneagram coach course. So we help people to take that training and get certified as an Enneagram coach. If you would like to see what it's like, we have a free mini course. All you gotta do is go to your. Any gram coach. com forward slash mini course, and check it out. And you can also email us at info at your Enneagram coach. com. We would love to talk about, uh, becoming an Enneagram coach. If you have questions, And the Enneagram, remember, it reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It's the gospel that transforms us. Thanks for joining me today. We'll see you on the next episode.