Introduction

Beth 0:00

right. So have you ever wondered what a real Enneagram coaching session is like, especially with a type two? Well, if so stick around because that's exactly what you're going to experience today. You know, a lot of you have done a fabulous job learning about the Enneagram through podcasts, maybe the YouTube books, you name it. You're not sure what a real Enneagram coaching session is like, is why I want to highlight them for you in this series. So stick around for type two coaching session today. everyone, it's Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach, and this is your Enneagram coach, the podcast. And we're here to help you to experience the transformative power of the Enneagram through a gospel center perspective to help your own personal growth and relationships. And we do that through podcasts, books, uh, courses. On our website at your Enneagram coach. com, but we also train exceptional Enneagram coaches. They are well equipped to take you on a personal journey of growth and understanding so that it's not just for your own personal growth, but it has ripple effects in your relationships as well. If you would like to have your own personal Enneagram coach, go to my Enneagram coach. com. Now, some of you are Enneagram enthusiasts, and you can't stop talking about it and helping others with it. If that's you, then get our mini course it's free. And it gives you a look or a sneak peek at what our become an Enneagram coach course is like. You can get that at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course. Well, like I said, today we're going to dive into a coaching session with a type two. Now if you're not on YouTube, you might want to head over to our YouTube channel and watch it there because I'm going to take this type two through the first guide sheet for their type. As I train coaches, we give them tools to help them to coach. And part of that are these guide sheets, and it helps the coach guide their client as the client learns more about them and develops this, uh, foundational perspective as they explore themselves. So that's exactly what you're going to experience today. The that, let me give you the background on the type two that we have today. Now I did get permission from her to, um, release this as a podcast. So don't worry. Um, but today our session is going to be with Valerie or now, like I said, she is a type two. And not only that, what's really intriguing is that Valerie is also one of our certified Enneagram coaches, a pastor's wife, and a mom of three boys. You know, she's busy living in Northern Michigan. Now she loves a good cup of coffee at a good coffee shop, spending time outdoors, baking and good reality TV shows. Now, what is amazing that you're going to see is that Even with an Enneagram coach, someone who's an expert with the Enneagram, there's so many amazing things that happen. So much clarity that comes from an Enneagram coaching session. Now you might be sitting there going, yeah, but Beth, she knows the Enneagram. I know. And that's, what's going to be so intriguing about this coaching session is that even when I take well seasoned Enneagram experts through these guide sheets, through the lens of their life circumstances. Their story, so many aha moments come to surface. They're really surprised. And the reason is they're bringing up where they're stuck, what situations they're encountering that they need help in. And so then we bring the tool of the Enneagram and show them and highlight the things that might be really beneficial for them, these. Aha moments. So today that's what we're going to be doing with Valerie. And I hope that you're really going to just sit back and enjoy this coaching session, seeing how any of our coaching can help unlock so much and bring so much clarity that people are able to grow at an accelerated pace. So with that, let's dive in to today's coaching session.

Meet Valerie

Beth 4:20

Hey, Valerie, it's so great to have you today. Thanks for being here and doing this coaching session. Hey Beth. Thanks so

Valerie 4:26

Much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Beth 4:29

Yeah. Okay. So we're going to dive into the first guide sheet of your type, which is the type two. And what we see on the screen here with the guide sheet is five words that kind of really explain the two kind of from a healthy to a less healthy place. So I'm going to read them. And then I would like, as I'm reading, just to really kind of get a sense within yourself, like what really is sticking out? Like what kind of is a gut punch or like, Oh yeah. You know? So let me go through these and let's kind of see what really pops up for you. Okay. So the type twos can be thoughtful. They're generous. They're demonstrative. They're people pleasing and possessive. So which one's really popped up out for you?

Valerie 5:15

You know, I like the, the positive words there, thoughtful, generous, all those kinds of things are, are Nice to hear and seem pleasant, but, uh, definitely relate to the people pleasing, um, and at times definitely to the

Beth 5:31

possessive as well.

People Pleasing and Possessiveness

Beth 5:33

And when you hear the word people pleasing itself, like what comes to mind first? You know,

Valerie 5:43

I think just wanting to keep everybody happy, but not in like a. But like wanting everyone to be happy with me is really more specifically what it is. Just wanting to know that I've done well by people.

Beth 5:58

Yeah. That's such a great distinction because you know, as a type nine, I just want people happy. Like I just want everything to be okay. Like this peaceful balance. Right. But I love that you said that you want people to be happy with you and that's such a great nuance for the two. Right. It's so great because it really. Has to do more with you and even in kind of saying that out loud. Does anything else come to mind for you or like is there any other dots that you can kind of collect along the way to kind of make more sense of it? You know, I do think that

Valerie 6:37

as to I put a lot of value on what other people think about me, right? Like wanting to know that, you know, people think I'm nice or kind or fun or, you know, whatever. And so I think they put a lot of value on people's opinion. Of me, and it kind of leans into my three wing as well, like wanting to present a version of myself that's likeable and fun and you know, all of those things so that I can be perceived that way.

Beth 7:01

Yeah. So then let's move into the word possessive. And so you're people pleasing. And then where does the possessive part come in? And what does that kind of look like for you specifically?

Valerie 7:16

Possessive probably isn't a word I would use. to describe myself often, but I, I get it, like, I, I get why that's there, because if I feel as though someone is unhappy with me, then sometimes I'll, like, latch on to trying to earn favor, and so I'll, I'll wanna be extra attentive to that person, or, you know, do extra things to, to kind of earn favor, and that can become Um, I don't think everyone would describe me that way, but I think at times, like my husband would, or, you know, people who are kind of within that inner

Beth 7:54

circle. Sure. Yeah. And that's, you know, what's so intriguing about this is, yeah, the word possessive, and you could put a lot of other kind of words, you You know, um, some people might be more manipulative, right? So it could be, I'm not getting the affection or the praise or the affirmations that my heart really needs right now. So I'm going to. Manipulate the situation to hopefully get those words of affirmation so that my heart can feel more settled or affirmed in the moment. So, so sometimes it's not straight out possession, right? It's, it's a, I'm missing something. I'm trying to kind of get at it. So, um, but I, I think it's really going to be great to kind of think through those two, but. Which of the other three, so the thoughtful, generous, and demonstrative, which ones do those really ring true for you as well?

Generosity and Self-Care for a Type Two

Valerie 8:52

You know, I think generous during the, like, I'm in a season of life where I have three young kids at home and, um, I'm a pastor's wife and I, you know, have a couple of different, um, roles that I play as well with like part time, you know, jobs and stuff like that. And I think generous. In that I try to, like, serve people really well, right? Whether that's my family or just friendships and relationships. I do feel like I, I try to give my best to everybody. But, you know, that always comes at a cost, right? Like, it usually, that means you're ignoring something in yourself when you're giving everything away to everybody else. But, um, I definitely I have a desire to be generous, to live generously, um, with my time and with my, you know, lending an ear to people and the way that I serve people.

Beth 9:49

And man, that's so hard, especially at your stage of life. So being. A pastor's wife. Um, you're being a mom of three little boys. Oh my goodness. You know, that's just super busy. Um, I had one little boy at one point, long time ago, and that one boy was a lot. So, so you're just in a really, I feel like it's almost like you're just being stretched in multiple directions. And then. The, the question I have with that season is, okay, well, where's the time for you? Does that feel right in truth in this scenario or the situation? Yeah.

Valerie 10:29

I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, kind of, I don't know if it's a perfect opposite, but like the opposite of generous would be selfish. Right. And so anything that I do for me then feels selfish. Right. Like, you know, there's usually at least. Yeah. Yeah. One day a week where I have some free time, like, um, flexible time where I'm not working and like my husband's home. So I can like, you know, slip away from the day and he'll always be like, go, go have fun. And usually I'll be like, well, I did this and I did this and I ran this errand and I picked this up and you know, he's like, stop running errands and just go like, go do something for you that you want to do. And it's. I find it so hard to do that. And sometimes I'm like,

Beth 11:11

what is wrong with you? And what, what comes up? Okay. So I, I hear a little bit of what's wrong with you. So that's usually a kind of self condemnation or shame, maybe judgment. Is that right? Right. Yeah, totally. And I'm assuming you do have not only a longing, but actually an actual need to get some refreshment and time alone and to do something. good and fun and healthy for you, right?

Valerie 11:40

Yeah, for sure. Um, but there definitely is like an element of shame that like wraps itself up in those, in those situations, you know, like even something that'll like, go get a cup of coffee. Like I might just go do that and not ever like tell anyone because if I tell people then I might feel bad about the fact that I took time to go do something for me, which is a silly. Silly thing, but

Beth 12:05

well, okay. So let's just unpack that for just a little bit. Cause that's such a quintessential two thing. And I think we'll weave that through kind of the rest of the guide sheet. So going and doing something for yourself as simple as getting coffee, which You know, like if you saw someone else go in and getting coffee for themselves, you would just be like, yay, I'm so excited for you. Like, that's great. You know, I mean, that's what twos are, you know, they, they champion others, you know? And, um, so for you as a two, that's no problem for others to do it, but yet there's something going on internally that makes it really hard to do even the simplest things of kindness towards yourself. Um, yeah.

The Power of Rest

Beth 12:48

What would be some of the false narratives though? I'm sure they feel real in the moment, but what'd be some of the false narratives in your mind as you go get the coffee and why you might not want to tell another person, like, what is, what are the thoughts that are keeping you from sharing that with others and feeling so bad about it?

Valerie 13:09

You know, it's like, I don't feel bad about it if I've gone and, like, accomplished a bunch of other things. I only feel bad about it if it's like, it seems self indulgent or, you know, something like that. But, um, I think it's this narrative that, like, my value comes from What I do for other people or my value comes from getting things done accomplishing things And I think it's also like an admitted weakness of I needed that like I I was stressed I needed to decompress or needed a break. You know, like just even admitting My own feelings is is just

Beth 13:49

a hard thing and Your own neediness, right? I mean, that's such a hard word to choose. I'd be

Valerie 13:55

like, oh my gosh.

Beth 13:57

Yeah. Right. It's like, don't say the word. Oh my gosh. But neediness. And I know we haven't even gotten into the rest of the guys, but, but neat, this is such important stuff. So neediness in and of itself isn't wrong or bad, but it makes sense why the two mindset comes to situations thinking that it is. Selfish or wrong. And so as we go through, we're going to look at the core motivations now, but I really kind of want to weave in and through this whole narrative of just simply getting coffee or, and it can be, you know, even more than that, but I mean, I think even just getting the coffee and how that. brings up these feelings is such a great first starting point because there's so many other things that you do need legitimately need and that are okay, but you're not going to be able to really go there and get those things. If you're not able to even go and get coffee with the freedom and the grace and the joy that God really wants you to have in those moments. And so we'll use that example, unless there's something else that kind of pops up later that you're like, Oh, actually this would make more sense for. What we're talking about. Um, okay. So on the screen right now, we have the core motivations and as you know, but every type has four core motivations and we have a core fear, what we're always running away from and trying to prevent from happening. We have a core desire. This is the thing that, Oh man, if I had this life would just be right where I want it. And then we have the core weakness. This is like your Achilles heel, your thorn in the side, that thing that keeps tripping you up. All the time. And we can kind of grow from this for sure, but it's going to constantly be there like that thorn in her side. Um, and then we have a core longing. This is the message. Our heart longs to hear and experience. So for you as a type two, your core fear is being rejected and unwanted being thought worthless, needy. In, uh, significant dispensable or unworthy of love. You desire to be appreciated, loved, and wanted, but you struggle with the core weakness of pride. And what pride means here in the Enneagram is that you're denying your own needs and emotions. And then you use your amazing intuitions to discover and focus on other people's. Feelings and needs. And then you confidently insert your helpful support in hopes that others will say how grateful they are for your thoughtful care. Now, the core longing, the message you're longing to hear and experience is you are wanted and loved. And it really kind of boils down to that. You are unconditionally loved. It's not based on what you've done for others, but just simply being you now. Hearing all of these for, and we were talking about like, just even the simply the coffee thing, and you can bring in other scenarios to kind of weave through that experience where these things are popping up and really kind of catching you maybe off guard, or maybe not that are really derailing you from the sweet moment of actually taking good care of yourself and enjoying life. Um, I definitely

Valerie 17:23

think I relate to not wanting to come across as needy, like even that word just kind of stresses me out, but definitely see that coming into play, you know, I could be carrying a whole load of groceries and my husband be like, you need help. I'm like, no, I'm good. You know, like I just, my first reaction is always that I can do it myself. Um, and, and

Beth 17:48

does that come from a place of, I'm strong or is it come from a place of I don't want to be seen as needy and therefore rejected. Um,

Valerie 18:02

I don't think I fear being rejected but maybe I do and it just. comes out in different ways. But, um, like, I probably wouldn't admit to that, but I'm sure that there's like a background narrative of that somewhere. I think I just, I think it's definitely tied to the pride, right? Like, I, I pride myself on being able to take care of myself or do, do what I need to do and or get things done. And so I, um, Definitely think that the wanting to appear like I have it all together, which that is like my wing coming into play. But I think a lot of that has to do with just my pride.

Beth 18:46

Well, and you guys are so great as twos for alleviating other people's burdens, right? Like lifting other burdens off of people. My guess would be, and so tell me if I'm wrong or right, is that if. If, and you may not even be thinking about it in the actual moment because you're so used to doing this, but if you were to be like, yeah, I totally could use your help. It's like putting on your need on someone else when you're the whole structure of the way you think is to alleviate. Yeah.

Valerie 19:24

Yeah. I mean, other, I don't see burdens as bad. I take on other people's burdens often. I like helping people. Um, you know, and it just, it's hard for me to do that. So

Beth 19:41

yeah, it's just hard to do that. Yeah.

Valerie 19:44

Um, and I get to apologize for it when it does, you know, when I do make up for it.

Beth 19:49

You would hate it if someone else apologized for theirs, right? Like, you'd be like, Oh, this is the overflow of my heart. You know, I love doing this. Um, so I think it's just, it's always so interesting how each of the Enneagram types really see life through a very specific lens. And it's really hard to shift that lens, you know, in, you know, quickly, but over time it can be something that can really change. And it's, it's so vital. Important and necessary for you to see that your neediness is not a problem. It's not a burden. And in fact, it's a great joy for God to have come and literally rescued your neediness. It's his delight, you know, and that he bestows upon you this unconditional love that he just wants you to envelop and, and experience fully is that. Have you had moments where you've really kind of felt that deep down? And if so, what was that like? So,

Valerie 20:55

I'm in this season of life where like, I can't meet everybody's needs all the time. And there's always like 20 people who need me, right? Like, uh, even just in my house with my kids. And so I'm in this season where I stubbornly want to do it all myself. Um, and I want to meet everybody else's needs, but I really can't do that. And so it's very humbling and I don't like it because, um, I just always feel like I'm giving half effort to everyone and I don't think anyone else would say that. It just, in my mind, it feels like half effort and then. When my needs do well up, like if I've had a hard week and you know, by the end of the week I'm at boiling point or whatever, then I just feel all this like guilt about having my own needs on top of, you know, everyone else's needs. And, um, you know, I think I've just been trying to think of a specific example, but I really just think like we don't live near family. Right. And so we, Really have to kind of rely on the village of people around us a lot. And there have been times in this last year where, you know, things have come up and I've just really had to call out for help with other people. Like, I need somebody to watch my kids or I need somebody to do this or do that. And it's been sweet to see the Lord provide that in a way that has just allowed me to accept it. And, you know, Him humbling me to the point of Just knowing I need to accept people's help. And it does feel good. And it feels, it feels intimate. Like it feels very, um, unnatural to me in some ways exposing, but it's, I think it's really good for the type two to be in that place too.

Beth 22:44

Oh, I love that. That is so cool. Yeah. I mean, and like you said, God has put you in a place where you have to go there, but yet he's also giving you the ability. To enjoy the sweetness of the community and the intimacy. I think that's just really powerful. Um, okay. So we're going to move into the next section on the guide sheet. And this really is just an overview of your type. Um, and so I'm going to read it and then again, whatever really pops out to you, and there's going to be some highs, like some great. Parts of the two, and then the struggles. And so I want to kind of weave all of that in. So, okay. It says you seek satisfaction by trying to help others because deep down you struggle, believing that you are loved and wanted apart from your support that you offer others in your attempt to fulfill this longing to be loved and appreciated. You can become people pleasing and possessive, inserting yourself into the lives of others and violating boundaries. This overwhelming burden to care for everyone is damaging when you begin to attend to others needs without adequately dealing with your own in your pride, you believe, or you may believe that, you know, what is best for others and how to take care of everyone denying your own needs in the process. Well. Relationally, you struggle when others feel crowded by your efforts to help and you feel hurt and insecure when you aren't needed, you double down on your efforts to win people over by people pleasing flattery and looking for more ways. Uh, to make people like you, however, when you learn to take your longings to Christ, you can tend to your needs, knowing that you are wanted and loved apart from what you do for others from this place flows, the selfless generosity, encouragement, and a redemptive kindness our world desperately needs. And our twos always give us. So which parts of these popped out at you the most and why. Um,

Valerie 24:52

so, I mean, it definitely rings true for me as a two. I definitely can become people pleasing and possessive, or insert myself into people's situations, probably most often with my husband. Like, well, maybe you should do it, you know, just do it like this. Or, you know, just kind of gently, not so gently reminding him about, you know, things that I think he needs to do that will help him. And so, uh, definitely see that. Coming out. And for me, I'm like, well, my intentions are good. I'm just trying to help, but for him, it can come across as over insertion. So I definitely see where that comes through. Um, I for sure use, uh, flattery to try and get people to like me or to win people over. Um, I, I don't see it as manipulative, but I just, I kind of see it as like, well, that's just my superpower. I'm good with people. I can just, you know, get people to, to like me. Um. Like as far back as I can remember, I've always done that. So,

Beth 25:56

um, that's definitely what's so great though. Like in all of this that we're even talking about, there's, it's two sides to a coin, right? So even that flattery, I would say flattery isn't great, but encouragement and affirmations is right. And so there, when we're healthy. And when twos are healthy, there's some of the best encouragers out there. They give very poignant affirmations. They see things in other people. They draw things out and other people. And that is like the sweetness of the type two, the thoughtfulness of the two. But that comes from, you know, the healthy part of the two and the healthy part of the two is they give without needing anything in return. So there's no strings attached. Flattery on the other hand is like you were saying, like a form of manipulation, like. I feel a great emptiness inside and I need something or I'm not getting something from someone. And so I'm going to go overboard in some form or fashion, hoping I get something in return. Would that be fair to

Valerie 27:02

say? Right. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think at my best, I see that, like I see where offering warmth and off, you know, being a great listener or, you know, kind of the intuition I kind of have about sensing people. Like, um, you know, something's not right with that person. I should check in with them, you know, those kinds of things. I think my perception of people's emotions, um, is, is very high. And so I think I'm very good at that. And that's where it can be used well to make people feel comfortable and to, you know, bring just warmth to relationship. Um, but I definitely. Know that at times I, I use it more for manipulation than for good.

Beth 27:48

Yeah. And let's go back to the very beginning. It talked about, um, kind of stepping and violating boundaries and twos are really great about, again, seeing people's needs and inserting themselves. Now, of course it can be where they're. A healthy way is where they're offering kind of with open hands. They're offering some guidance, maybe mentorship, um, advice of some kind, or even physical help of some kind, but it's with open hands. It's like, well, you know, if you want this here, it is great. And if not. Okay. No problem. Um, because they're secure in their own value, but then when a two doesn't feel secure in their own value and they're looking for others to give that affirmation or appreciation, then it becomes more of a violation of boundaries. Like, no, take my advice or take my help. Because I need to hear from you what value I'm bringing. And so give me a, uh, an example of how those two different forms show up for you.

Valerie 28:50

Um, I definitely think that like with age, I've gotten better at the like steady resoluteness of take it or, you know, take it or leave it kind of situation. I don't know if that just comes with a, I just turned 40. So I'm like, does this come with age or is this just, you know, the stage of life I'm in where I don't have time to. But, um, uh, I definitely think that I have gotten better with that. I, I think in my relationship with my husband, I see that I see the, um, pushiness of it a little bit more, you know, where if I think that I have something to offer that will be helpful, then I am a little more. Annoying, I'm sure with pushing my agenda because I'm just trying to help. And if you would just listen to me, then, you know, this would be good for you, but,

Beth 29:45

and definitely, definitely not always helpful. What am I? When people don't listen, especially when you're in that particular state, um, it does it feel like rejection then? And that you're insignificant. Yeah,

Valerie 29:59

it, it, I think it feels like, um, a little bit like rejection, like, like people dismissing your idea, you know, that, or that they don't value what you have to

Beth 30:15

say. Mm. Yeah. Um, and then towards the end, let's see, um, You know, as you are more secure in who you really are and the loveliness that you hold just as a beloved daughter of God, how do you find, I guess, the sense of freedom from the needing? Affirmations and encouragement and value from others externally where it actually comes from within what does that look like and feel like in your life, you know,

Valerie 30:54

I think there have been definitely different seasons of life where I've just had to rely on the Lord and where I just had to like sit with the Lord through hard things and just be like, I am. Frustrated or I am hurting or lonely. Like that's a big one for me. Like, you know, in different seasons where we've moved somewhere new and I don't have like my comfort people there, you know, like just having to really rely on the Lord to fulfill those needs. Yeah. It's just humbling. And so I feel like I've at different seasons really had to grow. And like allowing him to, to bring me comfort.

Beth 31:40

Yeah. So I want to go back to, before we go to the backside of the guide sheet, I want to go back to that whole thought of neediness and, you know, just how for the two, it feels, you know, like

Valerie 31:51

I

Beth 31:54

know it's so, it's just so interesting how all the nine types have like these certain words that really sting and. For two, it really is neediness, but I want to bring it back because I think you're going to find as I kind of unpack it a little bit, my hope and my prayer is that you would feel a sense of great freedom and the joy to literally follow Christ's example. So. The reason why I say that is most people in our Christian bubble, our sphere will say things like, well, just be Christ like, you know, like give of yourself, die to yourself, you know? So it's just this ongoing emptying of yourself to others. And that's actually not. What Christ did, and now he did obviously offer himself. And of course, on the cross, he did pour himself out. But when you look at his ministry in his day to day life, what you see is a man who wakes up early, is connected with his heavenly father, is in tuned, is getting replenished by his heavenly father, and then is with the three. Then with the 12 and occasionally with the masses, and if we're to really be honest and think about that, if he were, let's say a two, only a two, not God and human, but just a two, and he had the ability to heal like he does, it wouldn't make sense why he wasn't doing that. All the time, like a two would really deplete themselves and help all the people all the time because they could, and yet. That's not what he did. And so I think he demonstrates for us this healthy balance because he was fully God and fully human. He demonstrates for us that in his humanness, he has need and he was needy and he had to sleep, he had to rest. He had to replenish his soul with some. Like smaller bits of community, um, and then sometimes just getting alone with God and that can just, I think when we paint that picture that a man who could have been busy healing all the time and exhausting him, his human body chose to do what was actually healthy and recognize his neediness and lean into it. What, what does that feel like hearing that? And, yeah, what does that kind of do within you?

Valerie 34:32

Um, like, it's so silly that like rest seems hard, right? Like, that's like the opposite of what hard is. Um, but it really is hard

Embracing Self-Care and Replenishment

Valerie 34:43

to think about. Well, just Rest, recharge, do, do nothing or do whatever you want. It's like, it's a hard concept for her to,

Beth 34:54

like, um, But I would even say, I, I think Jesus, his, he had purpose in all that he did, but sometimes like going and getting, like for you going and getting coffee and being able to tell people, you know, what, I'm going to go get coffee. Because I need some space and time to replenish myself so that I can come back and give even more freely that is not showing neediness that, I mean, you do have a need, but it's not showing this neediness is showing this maturity of understanding your physical body, your emotional body, your spiritual, and that. You do have needs just like our car has a gas tank and we have to go fill it or we're not going to go anywhere. Right. And as a two, you're constantly burning on fumes. And so it's actually not just beneficial for you and healthy, but it's also beneficial for those around you for you, for you to be able to. Name and own and be okay with, you know what? My gas tank is empty and I've got to go replenish it. And one of the ways I'm going to go do that is freely and joyfully go get me some coffee, or I've heard twos. They'll go to the movie by themselves, maybe bring like a special treat or something because they're watching this movie. And of course, twos love being with people, but they're able to enjoy the movie and not feel all of their friends or family around them and what they're doing, right. And they're just able. Right. To be and enjoy. And, yeah. And so,

Understanding Personal Needs and Growth

Valerie 36:29

I would love for you to I think that's why, like, as an extroverted, like, I am an extroverted too, but I do really enjoy alone time. And I think I enjoy that alone time, not because I need to, like, recharge from people, but because I feel like I can just, like, take a breath when there, when there aren't people around. And You know, I don't, I don't feel drained by people necessarily, but I, I definitely think that there's, there's a difference in, in being alone and just knowing that like, I'm on my own time.

Beth 37:04

Yeah. And The time you need alone to recharge and replenish is very different than your husband. Who's a type five, right? Yeah, totally. And that's perfectly fine. There's not one that's right and one that's wrong. And so for you, you might only need to go get a coffee or go to, you know, target and walk around. Like you might not need a lot, but I think the, the, the goal here is to fully embrace that you have needs and that it's Not only okay to go into and to do that, but I think there's greater freedom when you say it to others. Like, you know what, I'm feeling a little, you know, depleted and that's okay because, you know, God's got me busy and that's a good calling in life, but I'm going to go and just see if I can't replenish some of this by doing a few things. And then, you know, I'll be right back at home. And, and, but I think the, yeah. The saying it to others and then naming it will be really interesting to see if you're able to more embrace your needs. Versus seeing it as neediness. Does that make sense?

Valerie 38:11

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Celebrating Personal Milestones and Self-Worth

Valerie 38:12

Or I think about, like, um, I recently had a birthday, and, um, it was a big one, so, um, one of my good friends decided she was taking it upon herself to, like, throw me a birthday party, right? Because she knows my Enneagram 5 husband was not going to plan that. You know, a big shindig. So he, he made the day special, but on, and so she threw this birthday party and I stayed out of the details and, um, she wouldn't let me do anything. And so, um, it was really uncomfortable in some ways. To just like not be involved in who was coming and not be involved in the setup or the you know What all the details of what needs to happen? Um, but it was just so fun and I tried To like remind myself like just enjoy it. Like don't don't downplay it Don't like be shy about it. Just like indulge in enjoying that day with those people and it was so fun and i'm so glad that like I was able to do that, and she got on to me once or twice when I was trying to clean up at the end, and, you know, some of those kinds of things, but, um, it was just recharging in a, in a different way, because it was special, and it was about me, um, and I, you know, tried really hard not to feel bad about any of it.

Beth 39:31

Yeah, I love that. And that I, I would say, hold on to that and the feelings and the thoughts and the, and the wrestling. We're always going to wrestle. Like it's not like, Oh, totally. It's not like, Oh, we've figured it all out. But, but that you were. Really going there and thoroughly enjoying the love that was being showered on you. And I just think, wow, that's so great. And that you were so present in it. And just knowing that the push and the pull within, uh, That is really beautiful, especially to do it on your birthday, which really is an important day for twos, you know, to celebrate others on their birthday, but then to have someone truly celebrate you and then to fully embrace it. Wow. That is awesome. It was so glad. Yeah. I'm so glad you were able to do that. Okay.

Navigating Stress and Relationship Dynamics

Beth 40:20

So we're going to go to the backside and on the backside, we have the Enneagram pass and there's four boxes. So for those that are listening and they're not seeing this on YouTube, um, there's four boxes and. They have Enneagram symbols in that in there. And we're really talking about the two, the two lines that are, um, going from two to eight and two to four. So the first box is the stress path. And this is when a type two moves from the average to the unhealthy parts of type eight. And when that happens, the two can become irritable. If you're a love or support advice, guidance, whatever you want to call it. Um, Is ignored or rejected. So kind of a little bit more fiery, irritated persona is going to start to rise up. And then, um, the two might start becoming more controlling, aggressive, demanding, uh, reactions towards others. And so they're looking for a very specific reaction or words from other people, um, and trying to kind of control that situation. And then they're going to threaten to withdraw their support and care. So. So that's another form of manipulation, but it's a little bit more aggressive, sometimes passive aggressive. And now aids aren't passive aggressive, but the two's going to use kind of this aggressive stance and not try to be as upfront about it. But then the last one here says manipulate and blame problems on others. So which one of those really. True. And you find yourself in a really stressful situation. I never do this. Yeah,

Valerie 41:59

no, I I've always known I'm a little bit bossy and it wasn't until I learned but the Enneagram that I really figured out that it's, you know, this eighth half that kind of comes into play.

Beth 42:08

Um, man, it is just,

Valerie 42:13

it's, I definitely see this. Come out in me, if I feel like someone has ignored what I, like, ask them to do, even if it's like an indirect ask, right? Like, you've walked past the trash can four times, and you saw it was full, but you didn't empty it, because I would empty it, because, you know, I'm thoughtful, and I'm thinking about everyone else, and, so I get Frustrated than and will be a lot more like direct if, um, I feel as though someone hasn't served me in the way that I serve them, but I want them to do it without me asking them to do it, which is a whole other thing. Yeah, and my Enneagram 5 husband won't do anything unless you ask him to do it because he doesn't, he's just not going to pick up on it. And so, you know, we have these moments all the time. And he's like, calm down, why are you being so So, you know, up in arms about this and I'm like, well, because for me, it's been ignored, you know, or it hasn't been seen. And then. I get frustrated.

Beth 43:18

Yeah. Yeah. And that's so true. That's such a great picture of the dynamic between a five and a two, a five, you know, is probably happy to know, Hey, here's my expectations. This is what I need you to do in the next couple of days. And they actually kind of would rather you let them know all of that, but that like kills the heart of a two.

Valerie 43:36

Right. He's like, make me a list. I'm like, the last thing I want to have to do is make a list.

Beth 43:41

Cause you're noticing everything and you just wish that others would notice and move in and help and serve in the way that you do. It just feels so natural for the two. Um, so yeah, that totally makes sense.

Valerie 43:54

Um, but you know, 10 years into marriage, like I, I know that he's just not going to realize it unless I say something. So I try to be just more proactive about, about it to help him out. Um, But for sure, we have those moments. Um, and you know, like I was thinking about a recent example of like slipping into eight mode. Um, like there was a few weeks ago, I was headed to an event and, um, my husband wasn't going. So I had the three kids and I was running a little bit later than I wanted to be. And I was supposed to be bringing something to the event. And so I'm like walking in three kids in tow with pizza boxes. You know, like. coming in a little bit late. And so I'm already like frustrated. And I walked in and somebody was like, are you okay? Before I ever like got over the threshold and I, I got kind of snappy in that moment. And it's because I felt like I was being called out for being needy. And then all of a sudden I was like, Oh, that was an aggressive response. Like they were just noticing that I needed some help. But for me, it was like a sign of weakness. Like I felt weak. Or exposed. And so I like snapped at it and I ended up having to apologize to that friend later because I'm sure it caught her off guard. Um, but it was just like that feeling of, I don't know, exposure, I guess for me.

Beth 45:24

That's a beautiful example of this because the aides don't want to be vulnerable, um, controlled, called out. Um, yeah, they'll get very much on the. On the defensive to be on the offense as well. And so, yeah, I love that. And I know also twos, especially when it comes to their children can become mama bears and like when they're stressed or something's not going well, they'll really step in with some great force. And that's where this, you know, eight spot can come up. Does that feel. Maybe you haven't had incidents where you've had to like really step in. Um, does that ever feel true to protect my children,

Valerie 46:03

protect

Beth 46:05

physical, but it could also be like, maybe there's, you know, other kids that aren't being nice or parents that aren't being thoughtful or teachers, you know, the, the two's can be wrong. And on a positive side, there's strong advocates. And then when it's a negative side, it's mama bear, who's like coming in full force, right?

Valerie 46:22

You know, and I have, I have a background in teaching, and I was a teacher for like 12 years, and so I try with my kids to like look at things through that, like, educator perspective, um, and not overstep, but there have definitely been times where like, you know, things will happen at school, or I'll disagree with the way something's handled, where I don't mind asserting myself, and you know, two's don't really like conflict, but I feel like Conflicts where I feel like I'm protecting or like stepping up for someone else is easy for me to do so I feel like I'm there to protect someone else. And that's my role. Then conflict doesn't bother me then.

Beth 47:02

Yeah. And we'll get into, cause that sounds more like the healthier part of eight and we'll get into that in just one second. Um, so let's hold onto that cause that's beautiful.

Exploring Blind Spots and Growth Paths

Beth 47:11

Um, so the next box is the blind spot box or blind spot path. And this is where the two goes, the average, the unhealthy parts of four. Now the blind spot is really when we show up. just around our family, maybe a close friend. Um, but honestly, these things that the other type does in general out there in the world really frustrate us, but we don't even see that we're doing it at home. And so that's why it's called a blind spot path. So for the two, they'll move to the average, the unhealthy parts of four at home, and they might be it. more openly share their feelings, their needs, their darker ambitions and their cravings. They're gonna express disappointments and others, and they're gonna become more moody, temperamental and self absorbed. So where and when does that pop up that And you might have, you know, done a lot of work on this and seen it, but maybe when you were younger, you didn't. And it was like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like where did these pop up and, and, uh, and when?

Valerie 48:13

So like, I grew up really close in a close knit family, right? Like close to my siblings and people like that. I think I see this, like when I think about the blind spot path for me, I think about like me and my sister, like gossiping in the car, talking about, you know, talking about things that are more self indulgent or like, you know, um, Me just being a little more like moody or, or, um, talking a little bit more selfishly about what I want to do, or let's go get our nails done and let's go to, you know, like those kinds of things that seem more self indulgent, but in those safe circles, I feel more open to do that. And where other people may not see that side of me, but in close relationships, I definitely see those things come into play a little bit

Beth 48:57

more. Yeah. And so what's interesting is though, the next box is the growth path and. It's the same arrow. So it's the two going to the four, but this is like the two going to the healthier, because the two at this point is at a healthier place. And so they're gravitating towards the healthier part of four. And so what's interesting is that, so it's the same direction, but one's healthy and one's less healthy. And I think growth is so hard that. Though we really do want to exhibit these things in the, um, growth path. A lot of times it's much easier just to let out the less healthy attributes. And again, that's going to come out with our family. Um, so the growth path though, so you're gonna move to the healthy, uh, parts of type four, and this is where you. And own your, um, own unhealthy motives and ask for forgiveness when you're, you know, it's like, Oh yeah, you know what? That's true. Um, you take care of your own needs and emotions. So you're much more aware. You're not repressing your needs and emotions, but you're able to see them more fully and be okay that, that they're there and that you need to take care of them. Um, except painful feelings, including anger, sadness, and loneliness, and believe that God, that you are wanted and loved by God apart from actually what you do for. Others. So which one of these feel like really true? And like, what kind of, um, examples can you see them in? You

Valerie 50:20

know, so like to go back to the coffee example, right? Like, um, if I, if I know that like I'm needing, like what I'm needing is to talk with someone about my feelings or to spend time alone with the Lord, or like to, um, refresh or recharge in a way that's helpful for me. Um, if I, Try to fix that by just going to get a coffee or going out to have like a Girl's day like that kind of fits into the blind spot path more because I'm really I'm looking for that Solution, but I'm kind of taking the easy path, right? like I'm I'm trying to get the quick fix rather than dealing with the real like heart of Like, the issue, right? Where what I really need to do is talk to somebody about how I'm feeling, which is terrible. I hate, hate doing that. But, um, you know, where I need to be in a place where I can be vulnerable and where I can, can talk about my needs or desires or how those aren't being met or, you know, just frustrations, things like that in an honest way that can be helpful, you know? But to me, that seems It seems selfish in a lot of ways. And so sometimes I'll, I'll settle for something easier, like going to get my nails done or going to get a coffee or, you know, something that feels like it's. refreshing me. And sometimes it does, but sometimes it's just a patch for what really needs to

Beth 51:50

happen. Yeah. And I wonder if it could be almost a stepping stone, right? Cause like, maybe if you do the coffee or getting your nails done or, you know, like a soft entry point. Into then maybe, you know, like maybe you and your friend go get your nails done, but then it's the, it's the friend that you can really talk with and experience life with and get nourishment from. Maybe the nails are just that entry point of taking care so that you can go to the harder place afterwards versus just jumping into the, uh, deep emotions and things that are really hard for you. Um, so that might be. You know, something to kind of consider because both can be positive or negative, just I think, depending on how you go about it. Um, what does, how does that land on you? No, I

Valerie 52:39

think that's, I think that's a good way to look at it because it, it's not like one's inherently bad, you know, I think just. Putting in the deep work, right? Like that's, that's not always going to come as easily and so being mindful of, okay, don't stop short of what's actually going to be helpful. Right, right.

Beth 52:59

I think, I think that's good. Okay, so then the last box is the converging path and Okay. Okay. So here we are in the growth path. So you're at healthy two place who's taking on the healthy four that we just talked about. And the converging path is when you bring those two and going to the healthy part of eight, they're all kind of converging together. Now moving to the highest healthiest side of eight. Is super hard, but it's super beautiful. And this is where you're going to express your emotions in a balanced way. You're not going to be passive aggressive or manipulative. You're going to shift your attention to what God thinks of you and not just needing it from others. So, Hey, if you get it from others. That's amazing. That's awesome. But it's not that you're needing it for this kind of internal survival. And then you're going to become more independent and self affirming. So how do those land on you and what are you feeling? I mean,

Valerie 53:56

those things sound wonderful. And I think, you know, we, we touch on them at moments. I don't think any of us live in that converging path all the time. Um,

Beth 54:05

we wish

Valerie 54:06

we could, Oh my gosh, yes. idea of like the steady settledness of like not being swayed by the opinions of other people or, you know, like I have, I stand pretty strongly on conviction, right? Um, just in my personal life. And so I, I don't feel like I am swayed by like those. Social norm kind of things or whatever by society. But I think I, I, the people pleasing plays such a role in my, in my narrative, right? Like, uh, I'm always worried about, well, that person's probably mad at me now. Or, you know, like that person looked at me funny or, you know, all these kinds of things are kind of always in the mind of a two. And I think that the settledness. Of, you know, I, I can be who I am and I can trust that like, I, the Lord delights in me and cares for me and so I don't have to worry about the opinions of other people. I think that is the strength of an eight that I admire and that I would want to be

Beth 55:14

like for sure. Yeah. And so.

Embracing Passion and Overcoming Selfishness

Beth 55:17

We have one more thing that we're going to talk about. And so as we go to that, I want to kind of wrap this all up. So we were talking about learning how to understand what your needs are and then moving into those needs without feeling needy and that it's okay to fully express what they are and then to own them, to not feel shame or judgment from yourself, or really take on the judgment or shame of anyone else, even though a lot of times they're not even doing it. But of course, then our minds are thinking they're doing it, but just laying that aside. Um, and so I want to take all of that into kind of your real life story right now. So here you are, you know, you're a young mom with three little kids. You are a pastor's wife. There's lots of people that need you and that's good thing. But then you also have the Enneagram coaching business that you started and that you've really loved. But as you had told me previously, um, before we got on here, it was that sometimes it just feels like it's selfish. Cause you enjoy it. It's part of what you want to do and love. And even though, you know, you're helping that person because it also is joined with your own passions and desires, a little bit of that feeling of selfishness pops in, does that. Does that sound right? Am I saying that right? Yeah, yeah, for

Valerie 56:36

sure. Um, you know, I got certified as an Enneagram coach a little more than a year and a half ago. And, you know, when I, I mulled it over and thought about it for a long time and, you know, wasn't sure if it was the right timing or, you know, all the investment of it and all of those things. And, um, a big part of it was that it felt. It felt a little selfish to go chase something that that I wanted to do or was interested in. Um, you know, and what if it didn't work out? And, you know, to me, it just, it seems like like a passion project for me to just go chase after. And, um, there were parts of me that, that struggled with, with that. But, um, it really has been a huge blessing. I've had full supportive, like my husband and, you know, people like that behind me. And so it's been really neat to be able to see the Lord use that and use my giftedness through that process. Um, and I just, I love getting to, to help people. Walk through the Enneagram because it has been so helpful and transformative in, um, my marriage and in our lives together. And so I love being able to help people with that, but I also really love getting to, like, see that part of me at work, right? Yeah. Um, sometimes that seems selfish, but I, I think it's really good. And, um, so I need to, I need to remind myself to lean into that, right? And not to be scared that like, oh, if I'm committing a bunch of time to this, then I'm dropping the ball with this or, you know, that other thing. And so, um, just being willing to, to put energy into something I feel called

Beth 58:22

to is good. Yeah. And like you were saying, um, how beneficial it is for others and you see it all the time as you're working with people. And so I think that this is, you know, where we want to, um, capture these false narratives in our mind and we need to renew our mind, shift our thinking into what's true. And so this last part of the guide sheet is called internal message. And we have lots of internal messages that are flying around in our head, like our. Broken record player. And there's a lot of false messages. And we need to renew our mind with what's true, but one that feels so accurate and true for the type two is the same internally of some sort or another. If I am close to others and loved by them, then I am. Okay. Does that feel accurate? Yeah. And if you aren't close to others. Or loved by them, what, or we're assuming, you know, like, because sometimes they do love you, but there's the assumption or the feeling is coming across. Maybe someone's upset or you're not coming through for them. What does that feel like internally for you? I

Valerie 59:39

think there's like some fear that that sneaks in there, right? Like, um, just worry that it's. Something I did, or something in me that's not, like, good enough, or, um, that I should have handled things differently, right? Like, I'm immediately assessing how I should have done it, right? Or, then trying to fix it, um, which is a little bit of that eight energy, you know, like, wanting to go do, do, do. Um, that's pretty strong in me. Like, even if Like my husband and I are having a tough conversation, right? I'll want like the urge within me during those hard conversations Isn't to sit in the hard conversation It's I need to get up and do the dishes or I need to I need to actively go move my body because I kind of move into that body space of the eight and um I feel like I need to be doing something and so, um, part of that, then I think that's when that manipulation or people pleasing kind of slips in because I feel like, well, I need to do something to fix

Beth 1:00:45

it. And that makes sense. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um. And so like the, the, there's questions underneath here and I'm not going to necessarily go through them, but they're contradictory statements basically are questions to really help us to know, okay, wait. So the, like the first one is, does my value and worth really depend on people loving and appreciating me, or does it really come from God? But then also like, well, how do you really know if someone's loving and appreciating you just because people say words doesn't mean they're actually feeling it, but then also how much. Do you need, and, you know, so there's just all these questions of like, how do you know you're connected with people? You know, cause some people will look nice and then they're not nice behind your back. You know, it's like, so how do we actually know we're fully okay. And of course being a pastor's wife, I know that you're like, Oh yeah, I totally get it. You know, my, my fulfilledness and my joy come from being secure with Christ. And, but beyond that, I think it also comes from. Experiencing the closeness of him that goes in and through you. And I can see how being a mom is part of that, being a part, you know, pastor's wife is part of that. And then being an Enneagram coach, I think the challenge with the Enneagram coach piece is that it is. And now that you, you aren't choosing to be a mom or to be a pastor's wife, those are definite choices. But this one over here, the Enneagram coaching one is really more of your passion, your delight, like what you're choosing versus someone else coming in and saying, Hey, can you do this? Or you have to do it. Um, so that is more of a conundrum for the type two is your, you're just choosing to spend time, maybe away from the people in the church or your family to set aside time to do this coaching work, which definitely has benefits for the people you're working with. But again, that false message of, but is it selfish, you know, and. And kind of hindering you from moving forward after kind of talking through this whole, um, guide sheet, you know, uh, feeling, um, people pleasing and, you know, the fear of, um, you know, not being wanted and loved, and then kind of weaving all of this through, where do you feel like? You have aha moments and moving forward with the Enneagram coaching versus it coming through the lens of Selfishness, how can you change the narrative in your mind to give you great freedom? I feel like

Valerie 1:03:23

that's something I've been working through right and Have kind of just most of the time I I do this well where I just am trusting you're like That affirmation and in how it's gone so far and how much I enjoy getting to lead groups and teams and and people through this tool and the supportive My husband and, you know, even, you know, our church and all these people who've kind of rallied behind or been excited about about what I'm doing has been helpful. Um, I think it would be different if I felt like there were a lot of pushback from that. I think it would be harder for me to, um, sure, you know, stay the course or whatever. But I think that I, I've had to just remind myself to, to trust that like this. is what I, like, this is something that I do feel like is important and I feel called to do that. And I am, you know, being affirmed by the people around me. And so I can just be confident in that and just continue to, to work toward that and to just enjoy what I get to do. And of course, there's those moments where something else pops up and all of a sudden it seems selfish to, to do these things, you know, like a day where I have something planned, like a session or, you know, a sense. Something I'm a workshop or something and then one of my kids is needed that day or, you know, some extra stuff at church pops up. But I think just reminding myself that like this is important work too, and it's not selfish to be

Beth 1:05:05

passionate about something. Yeah. Ah, that's exactly what I was longing for. For you to get to, you know, cause I think people need you, they need your guidance, your expertise, your life experience, like all that God has done up to this point has been for a great purpose and it's not selfish. It's a beautiful representation of the work he has been doing this whole time and it will continue to do, and you get to participate. In that beautiful work. And so my hope is that as you, as the feeling of selfishness or neediness, I think those two words, particularly well up inside you, let those be those rumble strips on the highway, like those warning signs of, okay, wait. Is this really selfishness or is this the one of those lies that are swimming in my head? Like what's really going on? And, you know, maybe there is just a wrong interpretation and I just need to kind of renew my mind. And so I'm hoping that. That what you just said can be more and more and more true, because I know knowing you the little that I know that you are sitting across from your clients and giving them so much value, it saddens me to think that the false narratives of, Oh, am I being selfish or, Oh, I should, you know, be doing other things, not this one thing, because then that's keeping you from, um, Giving of yourself in such a beautiful way and that hinders others from experiencing it. And so I know for me with my own narrative of my mind, I've had to think through like keeping myself quiet, you know, as a nine, like my voice doesn't matter. I have to see a way. No, that's not, that's not fair to others. And then when I think that I'm like, could be harming them by not sharing what God has given me, then I'm like, Oh wait, I don't want to do that. You know, and it kind of shifts the narrative in my mind. And so I think that's right where you're at is the, the changing of the narrative. And so anytime. Selfish comes into your mind or neediness. You get to flip it on its head and go, no, I'm not going to listen to that because these are great things. Um, and you're doing great work. And so I hope that moving forward, that you get to experience that on a much grander level. Yeah, me too.

Valerie 1:07:27

Thank you so much.

Beth 1:07:29

Yeah. Thanks for being with me today. I hope that going through the guide sheet for the type two has been really helpful and kind of disperse you on just to do more of the great work that you're already doing. Yeah,

Valerie 1:07:39

I'm usually on the other side of the guide sheet. So it's fun to get to experience it on this side as well. So thank you.

Beth 1:07:45

Yeah, you're welcome. All right. Thanks, Valerie. Wow. I am so thankful that Valerie not only showed up today, but really was vulnerable with us and allowed us to witness and experience her own personal aha moments through a genuine coaching session. Now, like I said, she is a real Enneagram coach, but as you saw, Even when you're an Enneagram coach, the Enneagram has the power to bring transformative power with these amazing aha moments. Well, if you would like to go through that, get your own personal Enneagram coach to have those aha moments as well. And in fact, you can get Valerie or as one of your certified Enneagram coaches. Now we have a lots of others at my Enneagram coach. com, but you can find Valerie and everyone else there. Now, for some of you, you're like, wow, I would love to do that. I would love to be an Enneagram coach. Well, that's you. Great. We would love to help train and assist you in that direction to get a sneak peek of what it's like. Get our free mini course at your Enneagram coach. com forward slash mini course and see what becoming an Enneagram coach is all about. thanks so much for spending time with me today and don't miss out in next week. It's our last of these nine coaching sessions with an Enneagram type one. You're not going to want to miss out, but as always remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it's the gospel that transforms us. Take care and I'll see you in the next episode.