Beth and Jeff: 0:00

Hey everyone. Welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach. And wow, today is going to be a really fun day because I have got two of the most special guests ever. Yep. They are my kids, Nate and Libby. So of course they're special, right? I'm maybe a little biased. Um, so Jeff and I are going to interview Nate and Libby because my new book, Any Gram for Moms is coming out next week on July 9th, which is actually Libby's birthday. Um, and so, um, We've been doing interviews with moms of the different types and listening to their stories and hearing what it's like from their perspective. But I thought it would be really fascinating and interesting for you to hear what it's like for two adult kids, because they're both 23 and 25 right now. What it was like for them to grow up with the Enneagram, to literally be raised with parents who use the Enneagram on a daily basis. I learned about the Enneagram when they were one and three years old. And so even though I was growing and learning, I was also utilizing that knowledge as I raised them. And so I thought it would be really helpful for you guys to. And I hope that you guys are excited to hear from two people that are now adults what that was like the highs, the lows, the frustrations, uh, the So with that, I hope you guys will order my book Enneagram for Moms. All you gotta do is go to enneagramformoms. com to get the book. We have plenty of options for you to select a retailer there. Um, you can also listen to it through Spotify and Apple music. We really want you guys to engage in this book and dads that are listening, this book is just as valuable to you to learn about your type and how you might parent, but also to learn about your wife and what it's like to be a mom. So with that being said, let us jump right in to the interview with Nate and Hey, well, welcome everybody. Thanks so much for tuning in. Um, but, uh, hey, today, uh, Beth, we're going to be talking with our kids about, uh, the Enneagram and our family life. Um, you've heard a little bit of the story before, but we'll go through that again. Uh, Beth's going to be releasing her new book, Enneagram for Moms, which is, uh, a long time standing, like she's been wanting to do a book on parenting for a long, long time. And so, uh, but we'd like to give an opportunity for our kids to talk about what it was like to grow up in a home where the Enneagram was just a very popular topic, whether we were talking to them about it, which I don't remember talking a lot about it with them, not until they were a lot older, but, uh, it, It's certainly we were talking about it with other people. So yeah, and process them in our own mind. Sure. Yeah. Cause we started learning about the Enneagram back in 2001 when Nate and Libby were one years old and three years old. So it was way back in the day. So I'm just curious. So Nate and Libby, um, do you remember when you started to think about this Enneagram thing, how young you were? Yeah.

Nate: 3:07

Probably elementary school. I think that's when we were trying to find at least my type.

Beth and Jeff: 3:15

Yeah.

Libby: 3:16

trying to find or, like, talking about Nate's type. I don't think we talked about mine until middle school. Silence.

Beth and Jeff: 3:28

Well, he wasn't in elementary when we found his type. Oh. Yeah. But do you remember those early conversations about your type? Was that a pleasant experience? Yeah?

Nate: 3:41

Yeah.

Beth and Jeff: 3:42

your

Nate: 3:43

yeah, I can't exactly remember what intrigued me about it, but I definitely know that I kind of played along and was just like, yeah, I'll answer the questions. Um, I know, mom, you went back and forth a lot between two and one, um, which makes a lot of sense for me being. Yeah. A social six, um, pretty much fits the bill as to why those two types would be what we were thinking about. Um, so

Beth and Jeff: 4:15

tritype being a 612 as well, so it wasn't too far off. Um, and sixes are some of the most helpful on the Enneagram, but for their own reasons. And so, you know, it really, you know, did make a lot of sense. Um, but yeah, I think you were 14 when we took like more of the kind of the official test. And yeah. the official test, uh, or so to speak, um, those are air quotes. Um, had you land on a six and I had you read about it and was like, yeah, so what do you think? Do you remember that time? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Nate: 4:59

strong of a memory, but I definitely remember us just kind of being like, Oh yeah, that's it. It was just kind of immediate, like, yeah, that makes sense now. I can't remember, dad, had you already found out that you were a counterphobic six?

Beth and Jeff: 5:19

Yeah, the reason why is like, I'm, I'm remembering Nate, the whole incidents, uh, so we had our computer in our house in normal Illinois, uh, near where the piano was, and we were kind of working on it over there, and you were on the couch, and I can kind of just remember, like, talking through it over there, but Jeff found And just to remind people, I I thought I was an eight for probably the first five years that we were using the Enneagram. That was pretty much from 2001 to 2005 ish, six ish. Um, and so that's, you found out pretty much when we, Kind of we're moving towards back to Illinois. So, um, so yeah. So Nate, dad had known for several years. And so in some ways that is probably why I didn't, wasn't at first seeing you as much of a six. Um, Because dad being more counterphobic six, you weren't really showing up that way. You were very much a rule follower compliant. Um, and so, yeah, just a very, very different experience, but it was really neat to kind of finally land on your type. Libby, do you remember us kind of helping you find your type?

Libby: 6:35

Yeah, I remember us thinking I was a nine for a while, which made a lot of sense. I very much did whatever is most helpful with the family, but I was definitely more outgoing and willing to intrude than you ever were. And I don't think we didn't realize that until we moved to Nashville. So around 13 or 14. And that's when. I actually took like the official test and it said two and we were reading it. And I was like, this makes a lot more sense. And then I think it took a couple of weeks after that, you were really reading up on the two to see, and to like, understand me better. And you would come in my room and be like, do you relate to this? And like some of the stuff I'd be like, how do you know that? You know, I remember one time you were like, do you ever like wish that people take care of you when you're sick? So you kind of exaggerate how you feel. And I was like, Maybe? Like, why are you asking that? Um.

Beth and Jeff: 7:29

of like, kind of like you felt like you were caught.

Libby: 7:31

Yeah, and you were just like, curious. You were just reading a book to me and I'm like, maybe? Uh, and then I remember one time we were heading to a family friend's house and we were bringing them a pie from Sam's. And I like, was sitting in the back seat and I hated it. I was like, I hate that we have this pie. Like, I didn't make it homemade. They're gonna hate it. They're not gonna feel loved. And I finally like, vocalized it to you because I realized this probably isn't a normal thought. And you were like, But we got them something. Like, isn't that amazing? And I was like, no, it's not enough.

Beth and Jeff: 8:01

Yeah. Yeah, because you wanted to really show someone that you cared by baking it yourself. I am curious. Was I in the car? Because I kind of resonate with that. I would have preferred to have made something. Oh, yeah, that's totally you too. Whereas me is, and I'm not saying all nines are this way, but as a nine, I was like, let's go the easy route. Yeah, well, I'm willing to do something. Yeah, of course. But. Let's not exert too much effort. Yeah. Um, okay. So I would love for you guys to share, like, separately your own specific experience or incidents, um, like a positive impact that the Enneagram has had on you. And let's start with when you were younger, like it, and it could be any age when you're younger, and then maybe like, how is impacting you now?

Nate: 8:55

yeah, it, I would say it's primarily, uh, affecting me in positive ways. Um, you know, as a kid, I would say, you know, we landed on my type in middle school and I think it helped, um, clear up some things for me as I was going through middle school, definitely more into high school, um, as to like how I related to classmates or teachers, you know, constantly kind of having trouble with authority figures. That I didn't feel like kind of rose up to the expectations that I had for them. Um, but then, you know, we constantly saw a pattern where my loyalty was overused both by myself and by others. Um, so for instance, like I had gotten the opportunity to play for a really, really good travel soccer team. Um, and decided to stay with. The team that I was with that wasn't doing so great and was pretty difficult to stay a part of, but I felt like not in like a prideful way, but more so like, Oh, they need me. Like we need everyone. Like I should stay kind of thing. And I don't like to play the regret game, but, um, let's just say the travel team would have been fun. Um,

Beth and Jeff: 10:37

Hmm.

Nate: 10:39

helped clarify those things and continued to help, um, in those ways. And so now I would say I use it on a almost daily basis in terms of understanding my own language, um, and how I communicate to others as well as, um, others communicating towards me. Um, And so for instance, like, you know, the other day I was just worried about this relationship that I have and, um, just some own internal head trash and thinking that it was going to be too much like negative things about me or that I think are negative things were going to be too much for this person. Um, and before I was. able to react to the situation. I was just able to kind of check in with myself and realize like, okay, I understand that these are fears and just kind of acknowledging it. Um, empathizing with myself in that part of me and then just kind of walking myself through like, Is this reality? Is there anything they've done to show that's a concern? Um, and there wasn't. And so, um, I was able to explain to the person later on like, um, hey, this is kind of what happened. Um, you didn't do anything, but this is just kind of what I had to do internally. Um, and so, yeah, it's helped me a ton.

Beth and Jeff: 12:17

Wow. Libby, what about you?

Nate: 12:22

You're

Beth and Jeff: 12:23

You're muted.

Libby: 12:25

we go. It definitely helped me a lot in childhood, just understanding as a two, how much I want to help other people because in the same way of being. Used in that way of like, I'm always a person who's willing to listen and to help and to be the friend that's there. Um, and especially as a kid, like you go through so many friendships because you're children and as a two, you can feel like it's your fault and you need to do X, Y, and Z. And especially, When your friends, as a kid, I mean other kids don't have emotional regulation and like think through things and so you're also like well maybe I should help this person when in reality they're not being very nice or whatever. Um, so it helps me have more, like, care for myself and willingness to stand up for what I thought I deserved to be treated by and all that. Um, it helped a lot with school. I was a huge, like, I need to make every teacher happy with everything I do. And it took me till the end of college to finally realize that that wasn't true. So, um, but it was definitely something that I was aware that I was doing, even if it was really hard to fight against. Um, so yeah, it, it also obviously helped as a family. Um, I mean, having that, you know, System as a foundation throughout childhood that I understood myself, but also felt like you guys understood me helped a ton because there was a lot of things that, you know, as you grow up, you feel like your parents don't understand, or maybe don't even care to understand you or your siblings. And to know that our family was constantly trying to get to know each other and be curious about each other. It was really helpful.

Beth and Jeff: 14:00

I'm just curious. You know, we didn't go into, we didn't start a coaching business for many years. And Nate was, had just left when all that was kind of getting started. When it was getting much bigger, yeah. And was there ever a time that you were tired of us talking about the Enneagram? No. Yeah,

Libby: 14:29

to heart. Like we only got disciplined by having heart to hearts, we never got grounded. Like there's very few times where y'all were like, we're actually going to punish you for something. And it was if something was like really big, but most of the time it was like, we're going to sit at the kitchen table and talk about our feelings. And like, it always helped, but it was super obnoxious sometimes. Because I'm like, maybe they just want to be grounded and not have a

Beth and Jeff: 14:51

like you're probably with your friends and they're like, yeah, I got grounded. And you're like, yeah, well, I got talked to again.

Libby: 14:56

fight. Like, it always baffled me because, like, parents would, like, take their phones away or whatever. And I'd be like, but did you guys not talk about it? Like, did you guys not say, like, here's why I did that. And here's what I could have done better. And here's why I reacted that way. Like, that was just how our family handled things. So I was like, well, how's that going to help anything? You guys didn't talk about anything. So

Beth and Jeff: 15:17

Well, in. And I'd love to hear from your perspective, like, cause even just saying that, I think a lot of families it's one sided, like the parent asking why did you do that, you know, or what's going on, you know, and like very upset and disappointed. What was your perception of, of how we use the Enneagram in, in those ways, both to be curious about you and what's going on, but also to inform ourselves or help you know about us? Like, what was that like?

Libby: 15:48

mean, I think a big difference that I saw in our family was The curiosity was because we were a team and I think that's carried into adulthood a lot is like we We're not just curious like you guys weren't just curious because you wanted to punish us or you wanted to tell us why we were Wrong, but you were curious as to there It always felt like you guys believed the best in us and that we just weren't acting that out and you wanted to understand How can we get from that? To a good action as a kid. Um, and so that was really helpful because instead of just hearing like, why did you do this? You guys would say like, okay, this is what happened. Like, why did you have this? And it, it truly felt like you knew we had our best intention or we cared a lot. We just, as a kid can't always do the right thing. And it's really hard. And so you guys wanted to equip us with the knowledge of let's be self aware. Let's. Um, and of course, like our family was never perfect at it and we had big fights and all that. Like, it's not like we just always sat down and had a kumbaya moment, but it also was very helpful because even in those moments, you guys also would then explain your own trash. Like, if you guys got too upset at us, you would come back and do the exact same thing you would ask us to do of self work and then explain it and apologize. And I don't know very many people who have parents who apologize. Or have apologized as much as you guys have throughout our childhood. And

Beth and Jeff: 17:15

Well, there's a lot to apologize. Yeah. I'm just curious. Have either of you uh, contracted with a literary agent to write the uh, expose on I grew up an Enneagram child.

Libby: 17:28

look, all right, whatever we can all profit from it.

Beth and Jeff: 17:32

Right, right. Um, well, did you guys ever feel stereotyped or presumed upon? Well, for instance, like just for the listeners,

Nate: 17:44

I just feel like the stereotype,

Beth and Jeff: 17:47

well, we always talk about don't use the Enneagram as a sword or as a shield. So instead of going, Oh, Nate, you're being such a six or I'm a nine guy. So just, you're going to have to live with it. We, we try to teach not to do that. At times, we all have, and some people more than others. I'm looking at myself.

Libby: 18:09

Silence.

Beth and Jeff: 18:25

maybe even a better way of asking it is, you know, parents are out there listening and they're kind of wondering, like, how, how do I use the Enneagram in a way that my kids would find it beneficial, that they would feel helped, that they would feel nurtured, seen, attuned to? Maybe that's really kind of the question we're after.

Nate: 18:44

I, um, can maybe speak to this a little bit, um, just in what I've seen in my own coaching with parents and, and their kids where, and this is also partly answering your last question, that what the way in which you guys showed us how to use the Enneagram was showing us that the work that relationship starts with doing your own work first, um, that it's not, Oh, let me help them. It's no, you got to help yourself first. Um, and so for parents to realize they need to understand what it means to care for themselves, to. Emotionally regulate on their own and then to be able to help their kids. And the way they do that is through attunement and engaging with who their kid is, not who they see their kid becoming or who they want their kid to be. Um, but just. asking them, who are you in this instance? Um, and that's where you'll see kids respond. Um, a lot of the time we just see a question being asked for the sake of the result instead of actually asking out of pure curiosity and wanting to understand and empathize with the kid for who they are at the current moment. Okay.

Libby: 20:32

like, I constantly am thinking we're raising a human that is not meant to just fit in our family perfectly, like, you find someone who you want to marry because they compliment you so well, and they challenge you. But you're not growing a human to do that same thing. You're growing them to be the best version of themselves. And at that, like in that sense, you'll still love them and care for them. And that way you'll be close and be family. But I think you guys challenged yourself to do that of, there's a lot of ways that we've butted heads, but you guys also know like this could be their greatest strength. And it's hard as a parent to be that. You know, landing pad of, all right, you're going to launch off and it's going to be very difficult because it's not going to feel good all the time, especially because you guys raised two stronger willed children who have, you know, tried to carve their way into the world. But you guys, I feel like you guys just knew, like, these kids aren't supposed to fit, like, I'm not supposed to be a nine that just fit the mold of doing everything a certain way, and Nate, as a six, who wants to conform to the rules and all things, you guys didn't use that against us, um. And so I think as a parent, when I look at the Enneagram, it's like, can I be curious about my kids and fall in love with the person that they're becoming and not just try and pigeonhole them into like a type that I wish they were or whatever?

Beth and Jeff: 21:54

hmm. What was it? Yeah, I was, this is more, uh, funny, if that's okay. What do you think is the sexiest thing that I have passed down to you guys?

Nate: 22:08

The funny thing is, both of you guys have passed down very six y things.

Beth and Jeff: 22:26

by sixes. But yes, growing up with my mom, I definitely took on a lot of six characteristics. And then I'm connected to the six with, you know, the line and the arrow. So. So what would you say would be the sexiest thing that we've passed down?

Libby: 22:42

I feel

Beth and Jeff: 22:42

Is there a phrase?

Libby: 22:43

I like for me, it's. Well, okay. One thing that I actually have told Mark so many times that I'm implementing in our parenting is if you're gonna be dumb, just don't be dumb about it. Like, be smart about being dumb. Like, you've always just instilled, like, if you're gonna do something dumb in life, at least be smart at it. Just do it with

Beth and Jeff: 23:03

It's so true. Be, be street smart is what you're saying.

Nate: 23:07

That's such a counterphobic six, Aang.

Beth and Jeff: 23:10

That is amazing. Like I, I've not, I've not really thought about that, but that is a very Be prepared and calculated. Hey, I remember telling you guys like, hey, hey, if you're going to do this, let's just be, don't be dumb. I don't know if I use those terms, but I definitely coached you on how to make mistakes.

Libby: 23:34

And it's like either that or I like research the crap out of things before they happen. And my husband is always like, Hey, maybe that's not always helpful. Like maybe you're stressing yourself out before it even happens. So there's so many things with our son where I'm like, I don't need

Beth and Jeff: 23:48

never said that to me. Like. You know, you may be overthinking it, or do you really have to go do all the work? I love, I love the time we, we hopped on the highway, Jeff and I, this was not long ago, like two years ago or three years ago, hopped on the highway and after about five minutes, I was like, cause my brain was offline. I was just like looking out the window, not really thinking like a good nine does. And I looked at him, I'm like. So what are you thinking about? And he took me up on it and he told me all the things he had been thinking about in the last five minutes and I was exhausted. You were upset. I was. I was like, he just took that dump truck and dumped it all onto me. I just answered your question.

Nate: 24:31

Yeah.

Beth and Jeff: 24:33

So yeah, anyway,

Nate: 24:34

better question would be like, what have you been thinking about for the past 10 seconds? Because that

Beth and Jeff: 24:41

that might still

Nate: 24:42

narrow it down to about five minutes.

Beth and Jeff: 24:45

Well, what's the ninest thing that mom Wait, wait, wait. Nate didn't respond. Oh. What was the sexiest thing that dad, or I, I guess, passed down to you?

Nate: 24:55

I mean, he passed down that I'm a six. So,

Beth and Jeff: 24:59

It's genetic. It's a congenital problem. Right.

Nate: 25:03

I mean, you know, there are definitely questions about that of the whole nature versus nurture thing. And I would say that, um, yeah, a lot of my thoughts are, you know, kind of a combination, but, um, I definitely remember. This was several years ago when I graduated college, moved to seminary, and I was thinking about buying these speakers for, um, like a turntable set and listening to vinyls. And, um, I just couldn't pull the trigger. And dad, you were like, what's wrong? And I was like, well, I've got you guys in my head, like. I just got

Beth and Jeff: 25:44

God, you

Nate: 25:45

uh, but like you could use that money for something else. And

Beth and Jeff: 25:49

about this? What about that? Yeah.

Nate: 25:51

like graduation money or like money that I've gotten for my birthday. Like just, you know, it's like I was completely fine to spend it. And then a week later you were like, yeah, I might get the same speakers. And I was like, just do it. And you're like, I don't know. And I was like, well, what's wrong? And you were like, well, I've got myself in my head. And so,

Beth and Jeff: 26:14

You don't know what you don't know. And so I'm like, I, I'll just, if the longer I wait, the more reasons I'll come to understand how to make another, or a different decision.

Nate: 26:25

We could have used that money in 10 years, you know,

Beth and Jeff: 26:28

We could, that's right. What was the ninest thing that I passed down to you guys?

Nate: 26:41

that's tricky.

Beth and Jeff: 26:43

There you go. Quietness.

Libby: 26:45

I'm

Nate: 26:45

Yeah.

Beth and Jeff: 26:46

Stay quiet. Don't say anything. Don't assert your presence.

Libby: 26:52

trying to think. I mean, I feel like you pass down more how I can get along better with my husband who's a nine. Like I understand him. He literally the other day, he was like, I feel like me and your mom are more similar than I think. And I'm like, yes you are. Cause there's so many things I just understand about a

Beth and Jeff: 27:11

Now, this is very, very closely held secret in our family. It's never been public. No, it has been shared amongst friends. But mom asked you at one point, Mm hmm. What type do you not want to marry? And they both at the same time, when they were teenagers, they both said, Oh, definitely not a nine. And I just, my eyes were open. And I was like, you probably wanted it. Like, no, it's what you were supposed to say is six. Like your dad, you don't want to marry your dad. What are they saying about me?

Libby: 27:50

it was like with a nine. I was constantly fearful. Like I'm just too intense. Like, I just can't handle it. Like I'm going to bulldoze over them and it's going to be bad. And then I also didn't want to marry six. Cause I was like, that's just too much pessimism, but hold

Beth and Jeff: 28:06

You mean realism? Thank you very much for the correction. Yes. Our battery's exhausted. I haven't seen that. Off signal. Uh, yeah. Um, you always have a battery. Hold on. He has a battery somewhere. Wait, what

Nate: 28:23

Is the camera not, like, plugged into the charger?

Beth and Jeff: 28:26

is, yeah,

Nate: 28:30

mean, it's back

Beth and Jeff: 28:43

the battery inside.

Nate: 28:58

Silence. Silence.

Beth and Jeff: 29:20

Because of where the, it connects into the camera, sometimes that charger gets disconnected. It's been left on for a while. This only has happened like one or two times, and sometimes

Libby: 29:36

Oh,

Nate: 29:42

Okay.

Beth and Jeff: 29:53

It's a very sexy moment here.

Nate: 29:55

We're going to come back and we've got two imprisoned dogs.

Libby: 30:03

I just know they're gonna start biting. He's

Nate: 30:07

I'm so excited to see how little Gills interacts with them as he becomes a toddler.

Libby: 30:13

already watching them. Like if we, if they start walking around, he'll like follow them and look at them and it's so precious. We're like starting to let them lick him more and more because we're like, We've got to let them get used to it and know kind of the boundaries.

Beth and Jeff: 30:30

You gotta push the camera, I guess, other

Nate: 30:36

Opposite

Beth and Jeff: 30:38

Okay, maybe a little too far. Right there. Good job. What were we saying, actually? Shoot.

Libby: 30:46

Um, or no, no, no, we wouldn't want to marry a

Beth and Jeff: 30:49

Marrying a nine. Yeah.

Libby: 30:53

Should I just redo my thing or?

Beth and Jeff: 30:55

Yeah. So you didn't want to marry nine because you're too intense. You didn't want to marry a six because they are Too pessimistic. And mom corrected you. So I said, well, actually it's not pessimism, right? It's realism. I appreciate that. I have groomed you well.

Libby: 31:13

That is what y'all always said. Yours would, you're like, I'm not pessimistic. I'm just being realistic and then mom would always say I'm not frustrated. I'm just, and then would explain some other words. She just didn't want to be frustrated.

Beth and Jeff: 31:27

Or I think it was, I'm not angry. I'm frustrated.

Libby: 31:29

yeah. It was some type of, you never want it to be a bad emotion. On

Beth and Jeff: 31:42

why, why did, because you're dating a Type 9, so, like, I just laugh so hard. I'm like, they're both, like, dating, you know, or dating, at least married to a Type 9, so, why, why, what was your reason at first back in the day saying you didn't want to marry a 9?

Nate: 32:02

I don't even remember that day, so

Beth and Jeff: 32:05

Oh, really? Oh, man, I remember it was Clara's, Clara's day. Oh. It was personal. Yeah, it was like, what did I do so wrong? Amazing, why would you want to marry a nine? Yeah, exactly, I'm so amazing. Um, okay, hold on, let me look here, so we don't miss some key stuff. You can ask them what they would suggest to other parents who might want to start using the Enneagram in their parenting. You go ahead and ask that, that's fine. So, say it again. So, one of the questions, for us, we were just trying to figure it out. I, I am, I did want to ask you this one thing. If you were to say, Top five things. Parents are notorious. Going to a conference and bringing that back home, reading a book, bringing that back home. Or going on a cruise when you're with your adult, your teenage kids, and you want to read a book and implement what you're learning? Yes. Does that sound That sounds I've heard of people doing that. Right. You've heard of

Libby: 33:18

It announced it to the group.

Nate: 33:20

This is a great actually example of what not to do.

Beth and Jeff: 33:25

But, uh, like of all the things that we learned

Nate: 33:28

Well, you got to share the story. Yeah.

Beth and Jeff: 33:31

uh, well, there was a small book called nonviolent communication, which you always hate that title, which, oh, it's just such a, like, I don't know what, what, how to describe that title. It's just. Nonviolent communication. So positive communication would be a way of saying it, right? Uh, and I wanted to read it and learn how to use that. And so I brought it with us. We went on, our family went on a cruise together and I brought it with us and I just said, Hey, I'm going to try to do some things differently. This book is very, very, very practical as a communication tool. So I'm going to try and start doing it. And we're all looking at it.

Libby: 34:20

It was more so, we had just gotten onto the cruise, like, the boat. We had just, like, we couldn't get into our room, so we went to lunch, went inside on the balcony. We have plates full of buffet food, we were just eating. And you just go, I'm reading this book, so I'm gonna try some new techniques with our conflict. And we're all about to be crammed into a cruise room. And how

Beth and Jeff: 34:39

like a closet where four of us are going to live in one room, a closet, and we're going to try to implement these new tactics. And we were all like, right, whatever. I'm just trying to choose. to be a healthier person than the rest of us. And I am being mocked.

Nate: 34:56

but No, but I am serious. Like, it is a good example of like, probably how not to go about it and not to knock on you. But cause we all understood the heart you had for it, but it was just like, that was where you were at personally. We weren't there yet. And so like a better way to have done it could have been one, probably not doing it on a cruise, but to, um, um, Like asking later, Hey, um, can I share some thoughts and what, what would you guys think about this? Um, and all that kind of stuff. Whereas like what it felt like was just like, Hey, we're going to try this out. And it's like, well, we're, we're not

Beth and Jeff: 35:52

Did you guys, did you, did it land on you that I was going to ask you to implement this as well?

Libby: 36:00

I just thought you were gonna, you were gonna do some juju as a counselor brain. And I was just like, okay, Counselor Jeff's coming out.

Beth and Jeff: 36:09

Well, that's funny because as a nine, I'm thinking, well, yeah, I have to follow along with everyone and do what they say. That's interesting. Yeah. Cause I'm, I wasn't asking anyone to do what I was doing. It was just, I was willing to try to change the way I communicated. Now, the funny thing about it is that like, it only took a day that I was like, Hey, uh, experiments over I'm done.

Libby: 36:30

I

Beth and Jeff: 36:31

We'll try again

Libby: 36:31

it like, we were getting annoyed at something and you were like, I'm done, I'm done trying this.

Beth and Jeff: 36:37

I think you guys, I think we even like poked fun or made it like more tricky for him, like mocking

Libby: 36:43

kept making fun of you for it, which it is funny because now like I've taught like my husband and friends. I'm like, so this is nonviolent communication. My dad's taught me this, like this, you do it like it ended up being very, very helpful and fruitful in adulthood. But it was

Beth and Jeff: 36:57

I will, I will say now, I think one of the things that I have passed down that's very sexy is my sarcasm and playfulness. Like you felt the freedom to be able to push back and laugh about it. that is not permitted with mom. No. No, I try. I try, but then it goes with my own story. So sure.

Nate: 37:20

Okay.

Beth and Jeff: 37:22

Um,

Libby: 37:23

But yeah, I would say, with what Nate was saying, I think for parents who are wanting to implement the Enneagram, I just wouldn't bring it up for a while. Like, I wouldn't even say, like, I want to find your type, let's talk about it. I would just genuinely be, like, curious about your kid, and

Beth and Jeff: 37:40

does help in the kinds of questions that you ask like parents as parents, it's easy to look at behavior rather than motive. Well, here's the thing. I. Just to clarify for the parents, we're not saying, you're not saying, at least I think, is Yeah, use the Enneagram all day, every day for your own internal work. Be curious about your kids. What could, what type could they be, but don't use the language of the Enneagram, the complexity of the Enneagram with your kids until much later because they don't have a framework for that. They don't understand that. And so you can, in the back of your mind, know. Like, huh, I can see my son, like Nate, I can see he's kind of anxious or worried about something or he's thinking about a lot of dynamics going on and he's super loyal. Huh. I wonder if he's a six and maybe I'll ask curious questions or like, for instance, Nate, one time, um, or no, this was, here's a good one for you Libby, kindergarten Libby, I get called, we get called in, Jeff and I get called in to meet with your teacher.

Nate: 38:52

Um, Um,

Beth and Jeff: 39:19

all my friends in a mean way, and I had had it, and so I just took him and threw him. And, uh, I was laughing so hard. Of course, we didn't know that you were a two back then, but I could see that a protective part of you was coming online and that that's why you did it. And so by being curious and asking questions and not trying to like pin you down in your type, I got to see a part of you revealed in that moment. And it was like, Oh, good for you. But we can't throw kids. Let me, you know, and so to. Um, cheer you on in one regard to say your heart behind that was good, but we can't throw kids. Um, we can't, we just can't do that. We can't throw kids.

Libby: 40:08

Yeah.

Beth and Jeff: 40:09

I probably said it that way too. The Bible describes a lot of ways to resolve conflict. Throwing them. You can, you can throw tables. Jesus did throw tables. He tossed. You throw, there's the Greek word is He did braid the whip. Throw and toss and it's a genitive version. I don't know. I don't remember any of it, but yeah, you can't throw. Yeah. And so what,

Libby: 40:36

with what you're saying, it, I think that just, it helps as a kid cause, I mean, if you imagine as a kid, your parent, not just being judgmental of what you do, but curious about why you did it, it, Speaks to like, Oh, there's more to me and they actually want me to become more of me. Not just what they want. Like you didn't just want me to be a kid who conformed to all the rules and like made all my teachers happy. But rather you expressed like, okay, well, we can't do that. Like as an adult, you are not allowed to just throw people, but you can be protective of people. And it's great that you had that heart. And then you taught me where to put those feelings. And I

Beth and Jeff: 41:15

And then

Libby: 41:16

go for it.

Beth and Jeff: 41:17

late, well, I was going to say later, we, we found out that as a two, that part of you is your ape, you know, and she came online and she was like, you are not going to hurt my friends, you know, and. And that's a part that we love and a part that also needs to be nurtured and, um, expressed in healthy ways. And so, you know, it's all in it. But, you know, had we, cause there, I will say, you know, for parents out there listening, there were times, and you guys probably don't remember this, but as a nine, I'm like hyper vigilant in reading everyone. Is everyone okay? Um, I would use the Enneagram a little from time to time when you were younger and I could tell that you guys were getting annoyed with it. And so I was like, okay, well, I just won't use the words, but I'll use the Enneagram in stealth mode. Um, because I knew it was helpful and that was okay. It's okay to use it in that stealth mode. Um, because we were tru

Nate: 42:20

I would say that's how we use it with other people most of the time.

Beth and Jeff: 42:23

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Cause I would say, yeah, even in our family, we're not going around typically going, well, my nine and say, I mean, like we, we will, but we're, we understand, I guess, the Enneagram so well. And we talk about it often enough that it's like, we just know what we're saying. We have that common language. Um, and yeah, I just, I have found it. Yeah. So helpful to really know you guys in the way that God has created you and to try to be your greatest champion while also trying to impart the best of what I have to offer and dad. to the best that he can, what he has to offer. But even when we do offer the best of what we have, that doesn't mean it landed on you in a way that was beneficial. Sometimes our best landed on you in ways that hurt you. And we've had to, Like, listen to that, hear that, validate it, apologize, in the sense, not apologize so much like oh, I'm a bad parent, I did something wrong, but that landed on you wrong, it, it, you perceived it wrong, and how can we repair that and let you know what we were intending, and I think that's where the Enneagram can also be powerful, um, I know Jeff, Nate, you wanted to, to do photography, Um, I guess a side hustle in college. And so you were telling us all your plans, this entrepreneur, entrepreneurial plan. And you were telling us, and then dad was, you know, thinking of, okay, well, all the things you have to think about and plan for and consider, well, you're already a six and we could really see your countenance fall. And her dad was really trying to give the best of who he is as a father. But it was crushing you in that moment. And I think that was a really, how was that for you, Jeff, seeing that with Nate? Well, the Enneagram was a non judgmental friend. I think that's the word that you've coined for it. In the sense that. I under, I had enough, the Enneagram was able to give me enough awareness of myself that I could see what was happening. While also not being too critical because it's also a part of the gift that I offer. So it, it just prevented me from going down a spiral or moving into kind of learned helplessness to where, oh look, I just suck as a dad. Or get upset with him. Or get upset with him, like, why aren't you listening to impress my point further? I'm doing a good thing. I realized this was more not about the content of the conversation, but the process. And to give him space to know, like, okay, that's what it's like to sit across from me, but also be a self aware enough to be able to sit with myself when we're missing one another. Yeah.

Nate: 45:26

and I think this is something that's difficult for a lot of people to grasp, especially in the Christian community. Where, you know, we have, um, you know, love others as, you know, you would want to be treated kind of thing. And, it's like, on the one hand, yes, but on the other hand, love people as they would want to be treated. Um, and I think that's where the, the vocabulary of the Enneagram really helps. Uh, and why we talk so much about being curious. Because yes, you could say like, well, I love them, you know, how I want to be treated, but sometimes those create mixed signals and the other person doesn't get it because they speak a different language. And so it's not that you can't give of yourself and love that person in a way that you might want to be loved, but it, a lot of the times has to be done in their language. or in ways that they will notice and clearly understand what you're trying to get across.

Beth and Jeff: 46:49

Yeah, like, you know, for type eights, for them, they're very straightforward, blunt, uh, honest, you know, almost to a fault. Well, that can land on me as a type nine is like, ouch. Wow. Ooh. Well, they're doing it because they don't want to be blindsided or manipulated. It's like, Hey, good or bad. Just tell me like it is. So they're doing it out of a sense of. love and protection for the other person, but it would land on me as a complete opposite. But for me as a nine, I want to offer truth, like, like a brick with velvet around it, right? Like, or maybe even more bubble wrap and more bubble wrap.

Nate: 47:33

Yeah.

Beth and Jeff: 47:34

Well, that would really not, like, I'm sitting here thinking, I don't want to hurt you, but I'm going to give you truth. Well, That would not land on a Type 8 as love, because it's like, well, where are you coming from? Like, this is so soft and squishy, like what's actually real here? And so for me, I've had to learn with our Type 8 friends, our Type 8 employees, that it's most important and beneficial for me to be as straightforward and assertive and honest, even though for me that can be hard, that is more loving for them. But. on the flip side for them to wrap those bricks of truth with at least some sort of bubble wrap

Nate: 48:13

Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

Beth and Jeff: 48:15

and, and hand that over to me is, is also seeing and showing me love, um, as well. And so I think that's what, is that kind of what you're kind of alluding to and getting at?

Nate: 48:25

Yeah, it's a lot of the don't hear what I'm not saying kind of thing of being aware that what you're saying, even though it's out of love or the kindness of your heart, it just may not be heard through, like, it's probably not going to be heard through the same ears that you have. And so you just have to learn and adjust. And that's, it only happens out of curiosity. Okay.

Libby: 49:05

for. me to handle when you talk about this situation that's happening in your life. And I said how like, it's just helpful when people don't say, are you sure that's what's happening? Because for me, I can read people so well that I, and also give as a to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and want to love and want to do everything. So when somebody is like, are you sure they meant it that way? I'm like, Well, maybe I should have thought more like maybe I should be okay with this maybe in like bend over backwards to be okay with things and actually not stand up for myself or just create boundaries and relationships if that's what's best. And so it's helpful for you because you're like oh yeah that actually makes sense that like you don't just think this person's doing this because you're being pessimistic you actually just know this is what's happening.

Beth and Jeff: 49:50

Yeah,

Libby: 49:51

And so it's similar to that. Yeah, like just being curious of like my kid. I think the Enneagram shows, like, your kid can be an amazing human being, and they're just going to be different than you, most likely. And even if they are the same type, like Nate and Dad, like, there are gonna be differences, but Your kid's going to be great. They're going to have a different life than you. And if you look forward to all the good things that they can be, and you understand that, and there's a way of championing them on to see, okay, yeah. Libby can be really intense sometimes because her A comes out, but how could that actually be Be really great for standing up for herself or in the workplace or later when she becomes a mom, instead of just thinking like, my kid's throwing kids. Like, we're all doomed Like we failed as a parent. Um, and so I think it just gives a lot of hope

Nate: 50:40

If you want, uh, like a visual on how to do this, just go watch Ted Lasse and watch the way that he starts and how he communicates with everyone. He communicates with everyone as if they're all sevens and he ends with understanding that they're all different people and he communicates to them as the individual that they are. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

Beth and Jeff: 51:06

Now this is kind of an interesting thought that came up as I'm listening to you guys,

Nate: 51:10

Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

Beth and Jeff: 51:12

uh, when we decided that we were going to do a parenting book. Mm-Hmm. um, one of our dear friends and, uh, he helps, uh, write, helps with writing our books. Uh, John Driver. Mm-Hmm. um, said. Hey, you need to talk to your kids first, um, because these kinds of parenting books sometimes they're, it's a problem because. You know, a lot of parenting books are tell the story of the successes more than, you know, how, you know, we're not trying to write a book on we use the Enneagram for 20 years and it didn't work. You know, you want to you want to provide the success, right? And but the problem is, is that sometimes the stories that are told don't capture everything about What was really going on in the family? I I'm curious from your your guys's perspective because we we talked to you about it beforehand and said Hey, are you good? Like are you good with some of the stories that we're going to tell in the book? what what really excites you or just gives you the the trust to know like this is not just a success story book that's gonna tell you how Beth and Jeff McCord were amazing parents because they had the Enneagram, but it was just an honest way of a tool that we use that helped us to stay connected with one another and now into your young adult years. But I'm wondering, how do you, how did you guys relate to that, that mom was writing a book about our family?

Nate: 52:41

Um,

Libby: 53:05

like I totally get why that could, you know, kind of explode a family. But you guys often ask, Hey, is there something we did in your childhood that. You didn't appreciate or that we need to apologize for now that you're an adult and you you're able to think about it So it wasn't the first time probably not even the 10th time you guys have asked that in our

Beth and Jeff: 53:25

And it's not the last time we'll ask. We have many years to go.

Libby: 53:30

yeah, and

Beth and Jeff: 53:31

guys are, you guys are just remembering the things that annoyed you

Libby: 53:35

and so like I think for us like it is a constant conversation because I mean, you guys always apologized throughout childhood as much as you could, and you also couldn't be self aware enough to cover everything, but we also now as adults have a lot of grace for, you guys were becoming parents as we were becoming adults, and so you guys couldn't do it perfectly, and so for you guys to share those stories, All I remember is my parents did grow through that, like they became better parents as I became a kid and became an adult. And so even if you share a story of success, I equally can say, yeah, and they screwed up this way and yet they apologize at the same time. Um, and so it's, I would never say like, y'all are the perfect parents. My parents never did anything wrong. But it's more so I know I can tell my parents that they did do something wrong and can even now to this day easily tell you guys like, Hey, I didn't like this and we can have a conversation. And I don't get anxious about what your reaction is going to be or is it going to go well, um, because I know we're open and honest about it. And so I expected the same of the book. Like if something annoyed me about the book, I could just tell you guys and you guys would own up to it.

Beth and Jeff: 54:44

Yeah, that's true. Nate, anything from you?

Nate: 54:48

Yeah, I agree. Um, yeah, I think it's a book that's really needed, um, just for parents to honestly be encouraged that it's a lot messier than people maybe talk about. And we've had probably the most difficult conversations as a family, As Libby and I have been adults, and yet we've also had the most life giving conversations out of those. Um, and it's the scary thing about family or just the people you love the most and giving so much trust and, uh, vulnerability of who you are, um, to someone, uh, because, yeah, there's just a lot of room to be hurt. But I think what we've all committed to is learning how to love ourselves and love the Lord. Um, and from that, we're able to love each other, um, at a much deeper level. And so I think this book is really going to help parents understand that yes, it's going to be messy and it is as difficult as. they're seeing, like, not to discount anything, but just to give hope that,

Libby: 56:25

Silence.

Nate: 56:25

that they really can have just an honest and loving relationship with their kids if they're patient, um, with their kids and then they're, they just attune to themselves and, and do their own work first. And that's going to be the challenge of the book too, um, that it'll challenge you as parents to check in with yourself and to care for yourself first, but really is how relationships thrive. Um, hmm.

Beth and Jeff: 57:07

to end, well, let's end on a fun note. I know y'all are surprised because I'm usually not the fun, funny one in the family, but. We did this a little while back, and we all really laughed at it. So, what, what is the one thing that I, your mom, say the most? And what is the one thing your dad, as a 6, what does he typically say the most? So start with me. What do I typically say that's very 90? Me.

Libby: 57:39

Trying to think of. Oh, you could never get me to do something. You can never get Beth to do a lot of things that take effort. And you won't be asking her to do it, but you'll show her that you're doing something and it takes a lot of effort and she'll tell you, you can never get me to do that. I can't.

Beth and Jeff: 57:58

And then, and then, like, what if, I mean, one of the phrases is, I, I just don't

Libby: 58:03

Yeah, you don't understand a lot. Like, I don't

Beth and Jeff: 58:06

I don't understand. That's the, that's the nice nine way of saying, I'm kind of judging this, this situation or this person. But then the one that you said this time that made me laugh so hard is you said, Oh mom, the thing you always say that I remember is I'm out.

Libby: 58:22

Yep.

Nate: 58:23

Yep.

Libby: 58:24

She's out of a lot of things.

Beth and Jeff: 58:26

Like, I'm done. I'm out. See ya. Checked out. Okay, so what about dad?

Libby: 58:33

He's

Nate: 58:33

Uh, Yeah.

Libby: 58:42

you will, you'll all of a sudden get quiet and you'll just be like, I want like time of peace. Not like peace. What would he say, Nate? When he's like being contemplative or he wants us to be serious. No joking. Like all the time being very in your head about stuff and me and Nate just lose it laughing at that point.

Nate: 59:00

be vulnerable here. And it, like, we would be laughing like this and all of a sudden, I wanna be vulnerable here. And it's like, I don't know how we're supposed to like, it's like Michael Scott, like, snip, snap, snip, snap, snip, snap.

Libby: 59:18

It's like a back and forth of

Beth and Jeff: 59:20

I remember you guys saying that I said, uh, that can mean a lot of different things.

Libby: 59:24

yes,

Nate: 59:25

yeah,

Libby: 59:26

that can be a lot of different things, or

Nate: 59:27

that was very frustrating because it's like, what are we supposed to do with that? Like, if you just say that about everything, there's no answer to anything.

Beth and Jeff: 59:40

It never ends. Exactly. Welcome to Jeff's mind. Welcome to the world of the six.

Nate: 59:47

Welcome to this news that Jeff McCord invented postmodernism, all from one saying.

Beth and Jeff: 59:54

Well, thanks guys for just hopping on here, you know, obviously we talk about this stuff all the time and have fun, um, one making fun of ourselves and stuff, but you know, just, I think it's going to be really helpful for parents to hear from adult kids who literally their parents used it from when they were, you know, toddlers all the way up to now in your mid, late, early to mid twenties. And still using it. And I think there's also, um, we noticed that people think this book is for young moms and it's like, no, this is equally for young moms. We're still using it for adult children. Yeah, grandmas, adult kids, great grandmas. This is really about having a relationship with those in your, your life, your family. Um, use it. You know, dads, hey, yeah, read about it, not only just for yourself and gain some perspective, but learn about what it's like, you know, from your wife's perspective, being a mom.

Nate: 1:00:52

honestly think that they will experience more of the results of the book when their kids are older. But if you use this as a young mom, it will prepare you to handle much more difficult things later on. Um,

Beth and Jeff: 1:01:16

That's awesome. Well, thanks guys. And thanks for, um, being willing to follow our lead on a lot of things, even though sometimes we've led you into the pitfalls of life, but then, uh, forgave us, uh, for the mess ups that we did do along the way. We really appreciate that. They didn't say they forgave us. That might be an assumption. That, that's true. No, they did in the moment when we asked. Maybe not now. But anyway, uh, well, we love you guys and really appreciate you. Hit

Nate: 1:01:50

too.

Libby: 1:01:51

love you guys.

Beth and Jeff: 1:01:53

Well, I hope that you guys had a lot of fun listening to my family. That is typical McCord family bantering back and forth, having a lot of fun, mainly the three of them, and I'm trying to hang in there. Um, but I hope that you guys had a lot of fun listening and hearing the highs and the lows of our family. And I'll see you next time. What it's been like to use the Enneagram when our kids were younger, but also as now they're grown adults. So I hope that was really beneficial for you. And I really do hope that you will, um, purchase my new book, Enneagram for Moms. You can get it at enneagramformoms. com. And if you get it before July 9th, we have a lot of pre order bonuses. So this is probably the time to jump in and get your copy. And thank you guys so much for your support, listening, uh, please share this with other friends, parents, moms, those that would really benefit from this podcast. And next time we are going to talk, Jeff and I are going to dive more deeply in what it's like to use the Enneagram from a new mom now that I am also a grandma. So what is that like in all the different seasons of life. So join us next time for that fun conversation.