Beth 1:11

Hey, this is Beth.

Jeff 1:13

And I'm Jeff.

Beth 1:13

And this is your Enneagram Coach, the podcast.

Jeff 1:15

Hey, well, El Mocordo is back. That's right. Yeah. Um, Joining back up together. I know that you guys have been listening to, uh, to Beth on the podcast, interviewing, uh, moms of various types. Well, as we've been interviewing moms, one of the things that's come up that Beth and I started to discuss is something that I learned from a pastor and mentor, a dear, dear friend. His name is, uh, Robert. Um, who has written about the various seasons of life and spiritual formation. And it was something that was very meaningful in my life and is, uh, wrung to be true, wrung to be true. Is that wrong? Is that right? It rings true in my life. And when Beth and I were talking about it, she's like, yeah, let's spend some time talking about that concept applied to. moms in the various seasons of motherhood.

Beth 2:06

Motherhood, but also parenting in general, because now you're here with me.

Jeff 2:09

That's right. And so the idea of it is this, is that in our early 20s, we, the first step is to individuate, to differentiate from our family of origin. And we're going to talk through what that looks like and how the Enneagram was helpful for Beth in those early years of, Okay, I I want to do things different for my family. But I don't know who I am. I don't know what my strengths are. I don't know what my values are. And the Enneagram helped her to determine, rather than it just being in her subconscious, it's kind of to articulate with good, clear vocabulary what it is that you desire. Uh, the next would be calling. Um, and, uh, Setting off on your own path and creating the family that you desire, starting to have children, starting to shape what discipline approaches, how you want to feed your children, what kind of experiences do you want for them? Well, the next season of life is intentionality. And versus resignation. Uh, and what this looks like in life, that's in our forties and fifties, where we kind of get into the midlife stuff and it's just busy. It's overwhelming. You wonder if anything that you're doing is working. Uh, and that's particularly true in parenting where You know, you're, you're involved with school, you're involved with kids sports, you're the chauffeur, your career has, you're starting to experience maybe some of the bumpiness of your career. Maybe you've been thinking about changing the career again to readjust. But in all the busyness of that. Season of life is we have to be very intentional about the time and be purposeful about it and not just resign to okay This is just how life is and then the last season is about legacy and that's 50 plus years old That's where we start to think about what does it look like to bless the next generation? All this came from dr. Bob smart You can find our I call him Bob smart, but it's Robert smart. You can find his his literature on identity calling Intentionality and legacy See, all of those books are on Amazon. So you can go and take a look at those. They're really good. So, Bethy, why don't we spend some time and talk about parenting, uh, for, in the different seasons of life. And so first off is that first season of identity, kind of coming out of family of origin, wanting to do things differently. you're also trying to figure out who you are. How do you think the Enneagram was helpful for you in that season of life?

Beth 4:43

Yeah. So just to kind of get,

Jeff 4:45

we kind of cut it short to be quite honest with you because we got married at 20. So you didn't really have much time. I didn't have much time. We didn't have much time

Beth 4:54

to figure anything out. Um, yeah, so that is so true. And that's part of our story that we had both Nate and Libby by the age of 25 and. I mean, we were just still trying to figure out who we were, let alone each other, let alone being parents. Um, and it was at age 26 that, at least for me, I was just really struggling because I was, as a good type 9, I was trying to, you know, become, um, Whatever you wanted me to become, or at least what I thought was all in my head. Um, and what the church, what I thought it wanted me to become. And now I'm going to be a mom, like, who am I supposed to be? Um, and you know what, when you try to become all these things, it just doesn't work out.

Jeff 5:39

And one thing that I recall too, one of the. liabilities. I don't want to call it a weakness because it, it certainly has some giftedness to it. But one of the particular liabilities is being able to differentiate from your family of origin. That's difficult for a nine.

Beth 5:53

That is very difficult. At least it was for me.

Jeff 5:55

Because they oftentimes have a idealistic, idealistic, rosy rose color glasses view of the family. And that was a little tough.

Beth 6:04

Yeah, it was, it was very tough. And so I thought, Um, you know, the way, and I did have, you know, a good family, obviously there's, you know, lots to unpack with, with any family, um, and I've been unpacking a lot of stuff, but, and, and, you know, all, uh, since, uh, all intents and purposes, uh, It was a good family and so I thought, Oh, well, I need to be like them. You know, my parents never fought in front of us and my dad's super optimistic and my mom prepared, you know, for all the things that could happen and was dutiful. Dad's

Jeff 6:36

a seven, mom's a six.

Beth 6:37

And so like, Oh, that's the way parents should be is, you know, I didn't know any different. Um, and so I was heading down the path of, Oh, I gotta be just like them. Um, and obviously there were some things that, you know, from them that I learned that was really good, but I didn't know how to differentiate. I didn't know how to be my own self. And so what happened is since I'm not a seven and I'm not a six, I'm not going to do what they did effortlessly. And so I'm trying and trying and trying to be something that I'm actually not. So then there comes the judgment and the shame within me. Um, that I'm not good enough. I'm, I'm not doing it right. Um, and so I struggled a lot with those kinds of thoughts, but

Jeff 7:17

I hope everybody hears the dynamic there because there, there is the, you, you addressed this in, in your group for moms about the idea of super mom, the image of what motherhood is, and that super mom, it, it's combined with a variety of different things. Yes. One of those for the type nine is, Idealizing your family of origin. Mm-Hmm. So you're feeling guilty that you're not like them. Mm-Hmm. that you can't quite do it. Yep. But you're stuck in a dilemma. Yeah. Because you have to individuate from them in order to, uh, cleave, you know, leave plea your leaving Cleave. Right. Right. To me. And so you're trying to honor me.

Beth 7:54

Right. And then, oh, you're stuck and you did not do my family's way.

Jeff 7:59

I did not

Beth 8:02

And they were all like. Why did you marry him? He's so different. I mean, they loved you, but they were also like, he's so different. Did your parents ever ask you why did you marry me? No, they didn't. They actually

Jeff 8:13

That would have been surprised that they they

Beth 8:14

really do love you, but I mean Oh,

Jeff 8:16

I was so provocative and unhinged. Yeah, but that's

Beth 8:18

what I'm saying, like, they never said it, but I'm sure they were like, he is so different. Like, what, what happened? But that was also really good because I broke

Jeff 8:29

the family rules. You did.

Beth 8:30

You did. And not in like always a bad way, but you definitely I

Jeff 8:33

would just say things very honestly. Yeah.

Beth 8:36

Yeah. That was not okay in my family. No, they

Jeff 8:38

didn't know what to do with it. Like you've done what as a teenager?

Beth 8:41

Right. Well, and just even being really honest in the moment. It's like, wait, wait, what? Like you're actually saying that out loud. Yeah. So, um, Um, so you, when we talk about, um, how family is like being on an inner tube together, right? And here, my family, the Fitzy family had four of us on there. So my brother, myself and my parents, and then you got on and all of a sudden the inner tube is just truly shifting and like big waves are all of a sudden happening and everyone's like supposed to move. It's stupid. Really families don't want to move around.

Jeff 9:15

Everybody has a place. They want equilibrium. Yeah. They want peace.

Beth 9:19

But they also don't want to move into a different, like, Hey, I was doing just fine. We had figured this out. Why did you disrupt the system? Um, and so you kept disrupting the system until we all did kind of move and shift and, and kind of figure it out. Um, and yeah, so that was really hard for me cause I, as a nine thought I need to become like my parents. Um, And that just wasn't the way you operated. You also came from a very different background, very different story, and you're a very different personality. And so that was really disruptive to me because I didn't know what to do with that, and I didn't know how to differentiate. And honestly, I didn't want to, um, and

Jeff 10:00

The interesting thing about that dynamic, though, is that, uh, I grew up in a family. They were very kind. I was adopted, but part of the dynamic was, is that my mom faced a lifelong illness that often put her in the hospital. My dad was a nine. My mom was a two. Uh, she wanted to be a very two ish two, uh, that stereotypically, but because of her illnesses, uh, her physical weakness, um, she just wasn't able to do that. And plus with her own story of trauma and her family of origin and my dad's as well. Yeah. There were just some things that were at play in my family. Well, all of a sudden I meet this woman whose parents are strong Christians. Uh huh. Who raised their family, uh, with biblical principles in mind. And so I it was for me it was like I was getting another set of parents and I was Some of the things that I missed out on from my parents that your parents were a gift So I I came along with that like I needed that sense of direction Those ideas provision nurture. That's right.

Beth 11:03

Yeah,

Jeff 11:03

so all of those kind things there's There's something that I was growing into

Beth 11:08

and I'm trying to grow out of only because that's the stage that God designed us to be I'm supposed to differentiate and yet you're also gaining Gaining stuff. I mean it was just yeah, so it was really interesting and that was you know When we were 26 years old the kids were one and three and so here I'm And I'm like, you know, we hit some turbulence like all couples do, but the hard part was I didn't know myself. I didn't understand my feelings and I kind of want to just to sweep everything under the rug. But thankfully, even though I didn't feel like it at the time, you were tenacious to know me. And I'm like, I don't see anything inside me. It's just a fog. What are you talking about? And so that's when our friends who saw that we were struggling, they were introduced to the Enneagram by a counselor and they said, Hey, I think you might be interested in this. And you thought it was interesting, but you were in full time, uh, grad school. So you had a lot of other things to read. So I took the time to read it myself and just totally dove into it. And which is not like me in, uh, reading. So I found my type right away. And all of a sudden, over the course of months, I had new language to understand what was going on inside me and that I could help you to understand what was going on inside me because we're different. And that really started to change the trajectory of our marriage and our parenting, um, or at least for me, because I know that took you a little bit longer to figure out your type and stuff.

Jeff 12:30

So a couple of things that are happening during that time, both Beth and I are both young adults. mid twenties. We, we've set a path for us that ministry is going to be the path and pastoral ministries specifically. And so we're now investing in school education. It's very expensive. We're, um, we're very poor at this time, but we're making it work. I'm working full time campus ministry plus going to school all the time. Beth's home with two toddlers. She's around all, we're living on campus. She's around all these moms from. Different parts of the country with different expressions of how, what family looks like for them. Um, and family was a high value in our theological tradition. Uh, but what's interesting about this is that. One, Beth talks about the idea of Supermom and what it was like at the playground during seminary days.

Beth 13:25

Let me just fill them in on what Supermom was. So I would go to the playground with Nate and Libby and they were like, again, one in three ish years old. And, you know, when we go out to the playground, you know, I didn't really think about it at the time, but everyone's putting their best foot forward, right? And so I would look at one mom and go, wow, I mean, she is such a strong leader of her children and she's assertive. Well, not me. And then I look at another mom and go, Oh, wow, she is so like, authentic and true to herself. And she can connect with her kids on a deep emotional level. Not me. And then I look at another mom go, Oh, she's so fun. And she's like, joyful and positive and spontaneous. Not me. And then I do that with all the moms I come home and I would tell you

Jeff 14:07

heartbreaking like it was never Oh, I'm, I'm a fun mom, too. Or no, Never. Never. It was always, I'm not. I'm not. Enough.

Beth 14:19

And, um, and so I come home and I tell you, you know, what I was struggling with and what I was thinking, like on the playground and really admiring these other women. And you were like, Beth, you literally have just created a super mom. You've put all of the best qualities of these women because that's how they're coming to the playground. And you put it into one woman and that you're supposed to be her and you can't. And not only that, I remember you saying clearly, you also don't know what they're struggling with behind their closed doors in their apartment. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you're right. And it was just this epiphany of compassion for them that we all struggle. But we're not, we don't always feel safe to show and share with others where we're struggling. And that I felt a greater compassion when I was out on the playground to kind of see behind, not the facade, because they have great strings, but to see behind the strings that there, there's more going on to be curious.

Jeff 15:19

Now, we don't talk about it a lot, rarely if ever, but the same is true of my experience during seminary.

Beth 15:27

Oh, tell more.

Jeff 15:29

Um, because I was around all these other men and we're studying to be pastors and to be example shepherds of the flock, examples of what it means to, that's even one of the qualifications for an elder and one of Paul's letters is to be able to, um, lead your family well. How did you experience me trying to learn how to be a father during that time?

Beth 15:56

I just always idealized you so I

Jeff 16:00

but there was intensity to it.

Beth 16:01

Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's right constant learning

Jeff 16:05

afraid of the most Regarding our marriage our parenting. Do you remember this?

Beth 16:12

Well, I mean my guess would be that we wouldn't be in sync and together

Jeff 16:16

and it would disqualify us from ministry Oh,

Beth 16:19

yeah,

Jeff 16:20

do you remember that?

Beth 16:20

No I'm just, yeah, now I do that you're saying that, but no, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have said that out loud. Cause that wasn't, that wasn't the narrative in my

Jeff 16:28

head. So as a type six, it's like, Hey, if I, if I can't get this right, I, which is what a six wants to do. I want to be the responsible one and I want to come through on my end of the bargain in order to gain relational security. So if we're going to be a ministerial couple, then we have. to set a standard. And if we can't live up to that, then why would a church want to hire me? Or would we, you remember the intensity from this? Beth is going back now. I'm

Beth 16:59

like, I can see like scenarios like, Oh yeah, I would

Jeff 17:02

devour books.

Beth 17:03

Yeah.

Jeff 17:03

Devour. Well, and that

Beth 17:05

was your quote unquote parents to you. Like you, you were like, but I don't know how to do this, that, and the other. And so I've got to learn. So you devoured books and try to implement them. Um, But that came at a cost. It did. And

Jeff 17:20

then in addition, I'm also seeking advice from everybody.

Beth 17:23

Yeah.

Jeff 17:25

Uh, what's interesting during that time, I wouldn't, I would have thought of myself as a type eight during that season. Yes, you did. Yeah. Now, but you knew I was very sexy, um, just early on, uh, just starting with the Enneagram, but I was terrified. Yeah. Uh, that I was going to mess this up. Uh, the, those early seasons though, is that we, we adopted. view of God's grace that significantly impacted our family's life. Matter of fact, that we even named our first son, Nathan, after the prophet Nathan, who was a servant to David to call out David on areas of his life that were not in alignment with the truth of the gospel. Which

Beth 18:07

actually, when you say that, I'm like, Oh, that's hilarious. Cause that really is what Nathan is and does.

Jeff 18:14

It's a pain in the butt.

Beth 18:16

And we love him. But he's, he speaks. Right, he speaks. Oh,

Jeff 18:20

he has permission. I wonder, I wonder where

Beth 18:21

he got it from. Why did

Jeff 18:22

we give them permission to speak into our life? I don't know why we thought that was a good strategy.

Beth 18:27

But he, it's, you know, the apple that doesn't fall far from the tree.

Jeff 18:32

It is a, it is a profound gift. Um, yeah. But that was one of the values for us was that our children would grow up with a better, a a better, a different launching pad than what we had, uh, going into, uh, our young adult years. Yeah. So in the sense we were seeking, uh, redemption, renewal from our own past and our own story through the life of our family. Now that, the sad thing is, is that that's too much pressure to put on your kids. It's too much pressure to put on your spouse to come through in a way that your parents weren't able to come through for you. But the Enneagram's helpful in that sense because It gives us language, it gives us vocabulary to be able to explain what is driving us, what's motivating us, and what's shaping us and how we go about learning in order to address these character defects.

Beth 19:21

I saw your drive and your passion from the lines, the lines, the lens of an eye. Like, and, and honestly, I was just confused because you weren't going about life the way I would go about life and like, what, what does all this passion and drive and intensity for? And so the Enneagram. started to give us understanding, it was slow at, you know, at first because we're just trying to understand the Enneagram back then it was super complex because no one was able to break it down easily. But now it's like, oh, okay. I can see why. you had that intensity. And actually, you know, like right now, I just, I feel a lot of compassion for that younger part of you and the fear that was driving him.

Jeff 20:01

So let's talk about the next season. So we're moving away from family, but we're moving towards cultivating our own family. What was it like for you to be able to name maybe something different that you wanted?

Beth 20:14

And what is the, I'm just, you know, just for our listeners and my, for myself, what are the years that's around?

Jeff 20:19

Oh, well, it It kind of changes to be honest with you now people are getting married later So they're not dealing with those kinds of questions We were in our early 20s, so, you know, you're still looking at your 20s and early 30s You know and depending upon what your family of origin looks like Differentiation we've we've encouraged that with our children. We encouraged that even whenever they were teenagers, so it wasn't I mean, there's still turbulence. It takes a lot of energy to get out of your family of origins atmosphere, right? And so it but it it can happen at a variety of different times And so but a lot of people are having children much later. I mean they could have children in their late 30s early 40s Yeah, and it's a radically different experience and but you still have to it begs the question What kind of family do you want? Yeah, and it's that what family you want You is shaped through the lens of your enneagram type.

Beth 21:13

Yeah. Oh, totally. A hundred percent. So I, now that you're saying that, okay, so we were in seminary until about, let's see, 26, 2003

Jeff 21:23

27,

Beth 21:23

28. And then we went to Kansas city for two years. So I was definitely enjoying, that's where my parents were. So it's like definitely not wanting to, it was

Jeff 21:32

a sweet

Beth 21:33

season, but definitely not needing or wanting to differentiate then. And then we moved back to Illinois where we, um, we're under, uh, the, the leadership of Dr. Bob smart.

Jeff 21:44

It is interesting thinking about our daughter. Who's a type two, um, who everybody would have just heard from. Uh, but. In the last podcast, yeah. Our experience of being grandparents was different than what your parents experienced. I think for you, like, you felt dependent upon them. Oh, yes.

Beth 22:04

Well, yeah, totally. I mean, as a nine, it's like I was dependent on Because as a nine, the message that's in our head is I'm a, when everyone else is good and okay, then I'm good and okay. And for 18, 20 years of my life, it was my parents. And so I was dependent on their view. Am I okay? Is this okay? Um, and so I, I didn't know how to differentiate. I didn't even know what that meant, you know, as a human being, as a nine. To be something else. And so I was looking for those answers from them, you know, like, am I doing it? Okay. Is this okay?

Jeff 22:40

What's interesting is that I, I anticipated that with Libby having our first grandson, Augie, but she didn't come to us. Or need us in that way.

Beth 22:49

Yeah.

Jeff 22:49

Um, much more competent. I mean, I don't know if you know twos in your life, but.

Beth 22:53

No, they're very strong.

Jeff 22:55

They, they, they just know what they want and they go get it. Right. Yeah.

Beth 22:58

Very strong. And, um, I mean, obviously she will come to us from time to time about things, but she is definitely her own person. And I admire that. Oh my gosh. I'm like. Wait, what? Like you can actually do it like this because I was so different. Um, but yeah, so we were about 30 years old when we moved to Illinois again and, and the physical distance was the antithesis to creating differentiation for myself and learning the importance of that. It was hard, but it was important. And so that, that's the season that you're talking about right now.

Jeff 23:34

No. Cool. What did you find out about yourself in that season that you appreciated as a mom?

Beth 23:42

Um, yeah, I think what I appreciated was I was very thoughtful mindful of our kids Attuned to them now. These are all two sides of the same coin, right? So I could flip it on the other side, but I was very intrigued and curious about who they were At mostly not wanting to, um, create a specific person, though, at the same time, I wanted them to be peaceful and, and Yeah,

Jeff 24:14

I mean, you wanted them to be little angels.

Beth 24:16

Yeah. I mean, and that's what, I mean, we'll get to that about how all types are trying, trying to create many versions of themselves. And yet, I think as a type nine being curious as to who, who are you and being open and receptive to that. So that part of me that was. at times healthy. I really admired that part of me and really having that non judgmental receptive space for them to, to be them, to be themselves and, uh, to honor who God created them to be. So those were the things that I did admire. But I had to pause there for a second cause I, that was a really hard season. I didn't have a lot of positive conversations inside about Myself.

Jeff 24:59

And how do you think it changed from when you were before kids to then engaging in that season? What changed about you then or what did you notice was different?

Beth 25:12

Can you explain a little bit more maybe? Well,

Jeff 25:14

it could be things that you saw that were starting to show up because We didn't have your parents around, so we didn't have as much support. Um, we're now in ministry, so you're a pastor wife. There were some things with that, that people might be watching you or looking to you for guidance. That there's just a burden being in that role. That was both part of your family of origin and, but then Also, it's just the nature of being in a local church.

Beth 25:44

Yeah, I think what I noticed a lot was, especially with the help of the Enneagram, was recognizing and being aware of how much I was trying to bring in everyone else's thoughts, perspectives, rules, um, requirements, whatever you want to call it, and trying to live up to them. Being

Jeff 26:05

hospitable and adapting to others was also very tough because very burdensome. You've got kids that you're trying to deal with, me. And the church and we talked about this a lot. Um, I still had the same level of intensity, uh, had adopted this notion of radical hospitality. And so we, we always had two groups in our home every week and we would do dinners and, um, Now, I wasn't expecting you to handle all of it, but there was definitely, as a little more introverted nine,

Beth 26:43

you couldn't

Jeff 26:43

feel like you could say no.

Beth 26:45

It was, yeah, introvertedness, definitely. But it really was this hyper awareness of people pleasing. Like I've got to become all things to make people happy, to be safe. In

Jeff 26:57

my mind, I have to do all things in my role as pastor. To be safe. To be safe. to have security with my job, security with the church, and you're thinking the same thing, to be safe and secure. I need to be able to accommodate to these people. Right.

Beth 27:13

I need to be able to read what people want, like read their body language or know what they want, and then merge with that, become that. So, and I just kind of had this epiphany the other day, and here I am almost 50, is that, because we've always struggled with, like, once I'm with people, I really enjoy it. But there is this Um, and I realized a lot of that anxiety is because I That young part of my heart is feeling like, Oh, great. Now I've got to figure these people out and become what they want me to become. Now I'm at a different place in life where I,

Jeff 27:53

That's family of origin stuff. Yes. Your mom did not handle hospitality.

Beth 27:58

Well, she struggled with that same thought process from her family. Um, and of course, just being a nine, that's just kind of the, And so I was always, with every group that came over, I either was very sexy because my mom was a six and so I'm thinking of worst case scenarios that could happen either relationally or like kids might, you know, do this, that, and the other. Um, so I'm thinking ahead of time and under stress about all the things that could happen. Um, And I would get really anxious about what I anticipated to happen and what do people want me to be like, and can I actually come through for them and make them happy to have peace and harmony? So there was just so many things from a unaware, less healthy version of myself. Now, not to say that I don't still have those same struggles, but I'm aware of them. I've grown in those and I'm much more aware and can talk to you and talk through them. But back then I didn't fully understand. And so I was just really anxious all the time because I couldn't prevent worst case scenarios always. And I couldn't make everyone happy by becoming whatever it is that they wanted. So I always felt like a failure. I always felt that I wasn't enough.

Jeff 29:14

What's interesting during that time is when, We started to get some traction with Enneagram. Yeah, we've started sharing that with couples whenever they would come over and these various people coming in and out of our the small groups that we were leading and but that's Great and tough because Beth's finding her voice, right and it's different than Jeff's It's different than the churches. Yep And wondering, like, how far do I go with this thing?

Beth 29:41

Right. Yeah. And again, the whole reading, like, is this okay? Is this not okay? I want to make everyone happy, but I actually want to do what I want to do, and I want to assert myself. But please understand

Jeff 29:51

during this time, too, it wasn't like it is today where there's a number of Enneagram books by a variety of different authors. And yeah,

Beth 29:57

there wasn't.

Jeff 29:59

I mean, we're reading Rizzo, Hudson, Richard Rohr, and that's about it.

Beth 30:05

Well, yeah. And like Helen Palmer and some of the other, cause there was only those teachers. And what was the gift was that you had four years of seminary and were a pastor. So I could go, Hey, we don't have this worldview. So how,

Jeff 30:18

what does this term mean?

Beth 30:20

Yeah. And what is actual truth from a biblical perspective? And so we did that time and time again over the years, which was great and fun. Um, and then that's what we were sharing with others. But. It was really hard because we didn't have the resources we had created back then. So it took a long time, but in all, in respect, um, and retrospect and thinking about it, that's what helped me to know the Enneagram so well, because we had to really dissect it and pull it apart and think about it. And then, you know, make sure that it was aligned with true. Sure. Yeah.

Jeff 30:57

Um, now the interesting dynamic. I think for a woman in that season of life is, what do you do whenever your kid's life is ramping up? Kids are getting involved with sports. They're more involved with extracurricular activities, involved at church.

Beth 31:13

Their personalities are coming forth. Personalities are

Jeff 31:15

coming out and you're finding your voice. Like, how do you? Maintain the I, who am I, and who are we?

Beth 31:24

Yeah, that's, that's a million dollar question right there, or billion dollar question right there. Uh, for me, that was extremely challenging. Um, because I didn't, there were so many parts within me that were like, don't do that, you could disrupt relationships and upset people. And that was terrifying to me. And yet the true. version of who got created me to be was like, no, but I'm good at this and I offer a lot to people and I need to speak up and share it because it is blessing people. So there was just a lot of good tension and growth that came out of that and I'm still

Jeff 32:04

how you could refer early on in our, Oh my gosh.

Beth 32:07

Yes. So, my thought was, okay, I know I know the Enneagram more than you. But

Jeff 32:16

that was clear that we never disagreed on that. That's

Beth 32:19

not an arrogant statement.

Jeff 32:20

No, no, I'm not saying it's arrogant. No, no, I know. I'm just saying that loud. We were both aware, like you were the Enneagram

Beth 32:25

expert. But in my mind, I'm like, of course, the nine, I didn't realize it at the time, maybe it's like the nine thought is, but my voice doesn't matter. Don't assert yourself. And so not knowing that clearly enough, what I did with that. internal message was, well, Jeff, you're the pastor, they want to hear from you. So you go and present the Enneagram and I'll be the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, pulling the levers and helping

Jeff 32:52

you. What's interesting about that is that in my mind, what I'm pursuing as a man during that season is being the responsible pastor. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, I guess that's my role, like is to be the leader and to show up and plus strong teaching gifts. I really enjoyed when we didn't know

Beth 33:10

that I had the gift of teaching and sure. And so we can in front of people because that wasn't my role. We were

Jeff 33:17

both kind of living out our sense of type without realizing like it would actually be really, really healthy if Jeff kind of chose not to do these things so that Beth could have space to be able to do it. Right. Which is how we ended up creating YEC.

Beth 33:33

Yeah, because what happened was that you, you were like, yeah, sure. And you were great at Uh, teaching and learning from me, but I'm in the background kind of, like I said, pulling these levers and helping you and creating stuff. But then people started to look to you as, as if you were the Enneagram expert, so to speak. I mean, I was a quote, unquote expert amateur at the time. Um, and I really felt overlooked, which is one of the greatest fears for the Nine. Like, wait a second, I'm the one that actually knows the Enneagram, not him. So I started to become. envious, jealous, angry, um, by being overlooked. And yet I was the one, we, but I was the one setting this up, you know, and because I wasn't believing in my own calling and my own voice. And so I really kind of unintentionally was slipping into the very role that's kind of the, the against what my growth path is. And we started to recognize that because once that started to come out and I was getting jealous and envious and like, wait a second, we realized, wait, like I have something to offer and I need to do my own growth and I need to speak up and I need to step in. That took a long time. That wasn't a quick path because that was really hard and scary for me.

Jeff 34:54

For other types, it's probably not as hard. They won't lose their voice. Right. I think like threes and eights. Yeah. Sevens. Sure. But to stay attuned to family life may be more important or a path of growth.

Beth 35:11

Right. That's the different types. If they were in my particular kind of circumstance, they, it would have been radically different, but they would have had their own things to be aware of that they were slipping into. That's right. Yeah. So this is just my story as a type nine and the family of origin. I grew up in the head trash that I had, the defensive mechanisms that I was using, that I was starting to become aware of and attuned to and realizing how I needed to move. in a new direction for real growth, which is super scary because all growth is really hard.

Jeff 35:45

Now, let's fast forward a little bit. So we've kind of gone through these seasons of identity, differentiating from family of origin, calling, moving into a path for life that you want to shape. And now we'll get into intentionality. So kids are high school, moved to Nashville for a job that doesn't work out. So we're, we're, have come to a halt on the side of the highway. We don't know what to do next.

Beth 36:15

Exactly.

Jeff 36:16

And, but even, even now it's still, we're still in this place of midlife. Uh, last year was by far the most difficult year of our marriage.

Beth 36:28

Well, meaning like there was just a lot of.

Jeff 36:31

Just midlife stuff. Midlife stuff, yeah. So we're at the pinnacle. Parents are

Beth 36:35

older, you had bypass surgery, business, entrepreneurs, like that was really really hard.

Jeff 36:42

And uh, we've got young adult children that are

Beth 36:46

Married, now having kids. That's right. Yeah.

Jeff 36:49

All kinds of things that are happening.

Beth 36:51

Yeah. What,

Jeff 36:53

as a nine, how do you experience some of that?

Beth 36:56

This season or when I started YEC?

Jeff 37:00

I would imagine it's a little bit of both.

Beth 37:02

Yeah. So, so starting YEC, um, you know, in God's providence, I had, you know, been learning the endogram for a long time. And as a good nine, it took time to then, Oh, wait, this is what I'm good at. And this is what I want to do.

Jeff 37:15

The great news is that I mean, our backs were against the wall.

Beth 37:18

Yeah. And so that, God was like, Hey, I know that you're not going to want to step out there and do this. And so with you not having a job and I have the blessing of working for Michael Hyatt and watching how an online platform could develop and be, I was like, Oh, I wonder if I could do this, you know, with the Enneagram and become an Enneagram coach. And God just brought everything together at the right time. So in early 2016, With you not having a job, I'm like, okay, I'm going to jump out there and be a coach and, um, got some clients and developed a lot of my own systems and thought patterns. And, you know, we've been putting stuff together for a very long time, but now it's very intentional in it. And then in the fall is when I created the first become an Enneagram coach course, right when the road back to you came out. And so all of a sudden the tsunami of interest in the Enneagram came and God had just per, uh, provided. everything at the right time and I felt so seen and understood. Our

Jeff 38:19

family had a need.

Beth 38:20

Our family had a need. And

Jeff 38:21

the children. And

Beth 38:22

I didn't know I had this gift.

Jeff 38:24

Sure. Of

Beth 38:25

teaching and speaking. And

Jeff 38:26

Nate and Libby are, um, They're teenagers. Yeah. There's, it's not demanding as much of our time. They're driving.

Beth 38:34

I could work hours upon hours and still. Twelve,

Jeff 38:38

fourteen hour days. It

Beth 38:40

was, it was a lot, but it was also fun and inspiring and the kids, you know, we were all in it together and it was a really incredible season, um, of passion that had been within me for so long and to naturally grow. overflow into the things that I was creating and how I was coaching. So

Jeff 39:01

in the midst of understanding, you have a significant gift and God has provided you a megaphone at the right time and place at such a time as this. Yeah. Some of those lies about who you are still present.

Beth 39:15

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like even, even right now when I get on social media, Like, everyone's like, yeah, we want to hear about you and your life and your story and your family. And every time I want to get on to share a story, I'm like, nobody wants to know this. They don't care. Like, it just feels so opposite. Your

Jeff 39:37

therapist brought it up to you in session once. No one wants to listen to you. How many followers do you have on Instagram?

Beth 39:44

Quarter of a million.

Jeff 39:46

Oh, yeah. People probably don't want to listen. That's

Beth 39:48

how, and that, and that. That is one of the things, and I am listening to myself or trying, but that's, as a coach, I'm constantly letting people know, you have record player false messages that are playing in the background all the time. Sometimes it's loud, sometimes it's muffled, but it's always happening. We have to be aware of it because it can get in our way of our own growth and health path. And so I still struggle with that. I do. I do. I really feel very uncomfortable right now. Like, I know. If people were watching the YouTube, they'd be like, I'm like super uncomfortable. Like it just feels, oh, yeah. And so I'm still on the path of growth and yet I can see. How God unfolded so much of my story like what was really cool like when I was Okay, we're Gen Xers. Like I'm almost 50. So I'm trying to give everyone context

Jeff 40:44

You're like right on the cusp of 50 49

Beth 40:49

I'm sorry. Yeah, you've got a ways to go So but back when I was an old

Jeff 40:56

country song if you if you're a country fan

Beth 40:59

when I was 12 You That was about 1986. I would get the camcorder out, right? And the 8mm camcorder. I

Jeff 41:08

hope and dream that those exist. I asked

Beth 41:10

my brother the other day, I was like, hey, do, have you got any more, um, old videos digitized? And so he's going to work on it. But anyway, so there's these videos that I did and I put the camera on my phone. the kitchen table or kitchen counter and faced it at me at the kitchen table. And that was like, I was kind of doing like a QVC slash Mr. Rogers type thing, like showing different items and like, Hey, there's this and this, you know, so it's kind of like a Mr. Rogers. Oh, I would totally watch them back. And I would totally admire like that little version of myself, that younger version that was literally doing what I do now. And that's what I'm, that's why I'm saying is cause Who I am today was there then, but over different seasons of life, I hid her out of fear, or I tried to change or become what other people out of fear and insecurity, or thinking I should be something different. Um, and so I want to watch those again, really as an, an honoring of who God created me to be in that season and how it really is very similar to me. To what I'm doing today.

Jeff 42:15

Now part of what intentionality looks like now is balancing the crazy that is midlife. Oh

Beth 42:22

my goodness.

Jeff 42:24

It's pretty epic. Yeah. It's, it's intense.

Beth 42:26

You think, oh, empty nesting. And yes, yes, there is some really incredible aspects of empty nesting. Um, you do have in some ways, some more margin in different ways, but holy cow, like your kids problems are way bigger. I mean,

Jeff 42:46

I loved diaper changing compared to what we,

Beth 42:49

you get a phone call and it's like, yeah, you know, I have a flat tire. Or, oh, I just got in a fender bender.

Jeff 42:56

I need, uh, how do I get health insurance?

Beth 42:59

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm pregnant. Wait, what? Like, yay! You know, so there's, there's just so much.

Jeff 43:08

But

Beth 43:08

you're at

Jeff 43:08

the pinnacle of your career.

Beth 43:10

Right.

Jeff 43:10

I mean, last year, we didn't even mention it. Oh, by the way, you wrote a book.

Beth 43:13

Yeah. In the midst of moving my parents who are elderly, getting them situated, then writing a book. Then you had bypass surgery and your own healing journey while still trying to carry You were still

Jeff 43:24

editing the book whenever I had surgery.

Beth 43:26

Yes, and

Jeff 43:27

We were launched, we had open enrollment for, uh

Beth 43:30

Becoming an Enneagram coach.

Jeff 43:31

Becoming a coach the week before and I, yeah.

Beth 43:36

It, it was a lot, so Tried to die on

Jeff 43:38

you.

Beth 43:38

Ugh, yeah, let's not even talk about that. So, yeah, it's, um That season of life is remarkably this season. Yeah. Of life. That's true. Yeah. You're not done with I'm trying to get out as a nine. As a nine. Let's sweep it under the rug. It's all good. Um, no, but

Jeff 43:54

New Year, new you. Nope, same beat. But it is. It's in a new year.

Beth 43:56

It's, and you know, I think like every season, people that are in the season ahead of us give us a little heads up here or there. They're kind of talking about where they're going, but we can't fully see it here, experience it. 'cause we're not ready for it. We're not in it. And then we get in it and we're like. Oh, this is what they were talking about, or this is what they were experiencing. Um, it's the same becoming a parent, right? Like you read all the books, you think you're ready, and then you get into, and you're like, Oh my goodness, I was not ready for that season. And that's just God's providence. And so, yeah, here we are in this, um, season and The desire to leave a legacy for my kids, it's different than like leaving, like, I want to leave the business to my kids because I don't think they want to pick up the baton of your Enneagram coach, even though they love the Enneagram. That's just not who they are. But I do want to leave a legacy as in how I They can grow and understand themselves and their spouses and their children in a way that promotes greater relationships and depth.

Jeff 44:58

And, and that shows up in unique ways for us. I think of, um, one, it shows up in repair.

Beth 45:07

Yes, absolutely.

Jeff 45:09

Um, we, we were always pretty. Pretty honest about our failures and our kids could or knew

Beth 45:16

or knew that you know, I I know we're failing I may not know exactly how yet but then they start telling you and you're like,

Jeff 45:22

hmm

Beth 45:24

I want to be open and receptive but man, this is

Jeff 45:27

hard. So that that's one way about legacy is letting them name their experience and Being available and giving them space to be able to do that and to own and

Beth 45:37

apologize

Jeff 45:38

So we're, we're learning that skill now as they're young adults. Yeah. Uh, I think number two, it's coming to recognition that the things that were the most important to us may not have been as important to them. It may not have been the big, I, I can think of one situation where I felt like I made one of the biggest mistakes as a parent, but, and this is Nate's story to tell, but it, it, he thinks of it as when I was the shining light in a very dark season. Remembered it totally different, uh, than, than how I remember it. And the kids have said that, like things that were important to them were things that we didn't think were as important.

Beth 46:21

Yeah.

Jeff 46:22

Um, and, but the interesting thing about it though.

Beth 46:25

And then the things that you thought, or we thought, or I thought I was giving the best who I am to you that hurt them sometimes the

Jeff 46:33

most. There, there is something about this idea of the type, how our type shows up in our parenting. It's shaping who we think we are. And then to have someone who really knows you and is experienced you relationally can come back to say this. I know this to be the real part of you that I value the most of you. But that's not the messages we hear from our types. Um, so why don't you talk, I mean, as a nine, what does it look like? To hear your, what is it, what's the experience like to hear your children say, I, I know this is different for you or not what you hoped for, but you actually hurt me.

Beth 47:16

Yeah. That's really hard because, um, I think most parents, I'm going to say all parents, but most parents are really, really trying to give the best of who they are to their kids, not knowing how. Who they are can also be very painful and disruptive to their kids. You know, so there's part of me that, you know, wants to, um, people please and make them happy. And yet that also created for them certain dynamics that were frustrating or hurtful or set them back. Um, I know like one thing, especially like, let's say at school, they didn't. They didn't feel that maybe I, I'm not going to speak for you, but I did not stand up for them as much. And I can look back and go, Oh, I can see that I was actually trying to hold the tension between the teachers and the staff and my kids and wanting to, be there for all the people. So like be a cheerleader to the staff and the teachers, so I'm not like your typical parent that's like against all the teachers and the leaders, like my kid's the best, like not having that stance, but also being for my kids. And so, but at times they felt that I wasn't fully seeing and understanding the pain or the misunderstanding that they're going through and being on their side. And so that, that makes me sad, you know, and, and having to own those things is hard, but at the same time, it's really hard. It's really hard. But at the same time,

Jeff 49:01

your dispositions changed talking about you as a young mom. You're much more free, but you're in it now. Yeah, because this is a daily experience of life now.

Beth 49:11

Yeah, because I see I see the. Ramifications, if you will, of giving at the season of life of what I had the best of what I thought I had to offer and it either land on them wrong that it was misunderstood through the lens of their type it didn't resonate with their type um and that that makes me sad and I know a lot of parents are there like well then how do I fix that you know and it's like You can't always fix it because you don't know your kid's type and you don't always know what their needs are in the moment and how it conflicts with your needs. And there's so much going on and that's where God calls us to surrender and depend on him that he loves our kids and we're going to do the best we can. But I think it's so important. I think if there's anything that's important in parenting is being willing to listen to our kids and apologizing. And sometimes that apology isn't saying so much that I do. Did something wrong as more, I can see how my efforts to love you well landed on you and you and you saw it, felt it, interpret it, perceived it, whatever you want to call it. It. it shaped you or hurt you in a way that I didn't intend. And I am sorry. Not, I'm sure you felt that way. You know, that's not a real sorry, but wow. I am sorry that that didn't resonate with you or that hurt you or that harmed you. What can I do right now to repair?

Jeff 50:42

Now, one of the tremendous gifts that you have left our children, which we find a gift and burdensome, is that they are both entrepreneurs. You probably never set out as a young woman thinking, I want my children to learn entrepreneurship and build their own businesses and work for themselves. But more than what you taught, they caught by the actions that you chose. What's it like that here's this little girl making, I mean, at five years old, you were going door to door selling, uh, little contact books that your dad got as a physician to neighbors and your mom's like, no, no, no, we don't do that. We don't do that.

Beth 51:29

That's inappropriate. Shamed

Jeff 51:30

it. And then you kept quiet about making QVC videos. Yeah. I married a party animal over here. And now this, what was hidden in that you chose to hide for many years,

Beth 51:47

Becomes

Jeff 51:47

the very gift that you've left the kids. Yeah, like we are so stinking proud Yeah, they are so much more bold.

Beth 51:54

Yeah

Jeff 51:56

You can't just go do that. That takes a yeah years to overcome like What's that like as a nine like you they're out there changing people's lives now because of what you did

Beth 52:08

yeah, I I always You know, and we're trying to give the best of who we are to our kids and give the message that we wish we would be given. And that message for me is your presence matters. Your voice matters. Assert yourself. Like that's what I needed. And that's what I kept giving to them. And so that is a gift because Though I mean, all people and all kids have to find their own path and their strengths and all that stuff. And that takes time. But they have felt a lot more freedom than I did to pursue their dreams and to actually step out in at a much younger age than I felt okay about.

Jeff 52:50

Well, next week on the podcast, we have something special.

Beth 52:54

Yes. First, I had to go wait, what is it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So next week, we're going to talk with, um, three other moms plus me. So there's four, four of us moms. You interview us on these different seasons of life. And these are all moms of different stages and ages of kids and different Enneagram types who are very either well versed or experts in the Enneagram. So a two,

Jeff 53:17

an eight and a seven. And

Beth 53:19

then me

Jeff 53:19

as a nine.

Beth 53:21

And, um, all either coaches, uh, Angie, who started our podcast with us. She's not an actual coach though. I told her ago, if you would just take the assessment, you would be certified as a coach, but, um, but yes, so. Um, all of them have been using the Enneagram for a really long time for themselves personally, and using it as a way to understand their parenting and motherhood and how it shaped them in the different, in these different seasons of life. Now, you know, Roe, who's in her 60s, she didn't learn the Enneagram until her kids were older. And so that's also why I asked her to be in it, is like how do we use the Enneagram not just when we're younger moms or our kids are teenagers, but also when our kids are older and that's where I also come in because we use the Enneagram still today with our adult kids. If anything, we use it almost even more. Maybe not like we're saying, Six and nine and all that stuff all the time, but we understand the foundational elements of it And so we're constantly using it as a way to to increase our connection with our kids.

Jeff 54:25

Yeah. It's a great conversation. And if you're wondering whether Enneagram for Moms is for you, this, seeing how the Enneagram played a role in Beth's life in the various seasons of motherhood, and even to this very day, you know, as the old hair club for men commercial, Beth is not only the president, she's also Um, and we're, we still use the Enneagram on a regular basis because it, it, it is a very helpful and powerful tool as we come to understand ourselves, who God is, who he's made us to be, and what that looks like in relationships.

Beth 54:58

And the book comes out this week. And so I do really hope that all of you, uh, whether you're going to, you're hoping to be a mom, you are a mom, you're a grandmother, you know, a mom, you have friends that are moms, or you're a parent because the book really can be read through the lens of a husband. because there's going to be a lot of things in there that yes, are kind of geared towards being a mom, but not all of it because the enneagram is not. Gender based. Um, but I do, A lot of stories towards mom, but it helps you understand the moms in your life and where they're coming from, or maybe understanding your own mom, uh, and how she may have parented you. So I really do recommend that you guys go and get your own book at enneagrampermoms. com. Uh, we've got plenty of retailers for you to choose from your favorite one. Um, but we also have lots of free, uh, resources on that website. So we hope that you will go there, get those free resources and use this book book. To talk with others about your own parenting story, but also to have grace and compassion that God created you to be the type you are for your kiddos. If God wanted me to be a type four from Nate and Libby, he would have, if you want to be a type eight, he would have made me a type eight, but he created me to be me. And so I want to learn how. That is going to shape my kids and how to be the healthiest version for myself, but also for my kids. So go get that book and learn to step into the world of grace and understanding as a parent in a whole new way. And then we'll see you next week as we talk with the four of us types and Jeff will interview us with the same kind of Setup. Okay. We'll see you then