Beth: 0:00

Hey everyone. Welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach. And today is going to be a really fun day because I'm inviting my husband, Jeff McCord, to actually interview me and three other moms. Now this podcast is going to be different because. The span of life that us moms are is mainly from teenage into being grandmas. And so the idea is we've been using the Enneagram all four of us for a really long time. And so what has it been like to be a new mom using the Enneagram all the way into being a grandmother? Just to kind of paint the picture. I started using the Enneagram when Nate and Libby were one and three years old. So a long time ago, back in 2001, and now they're 23 and 25 years old. And we have a new grandbaby who right now is four months old. So I've been using the Enneagram for a really long time in different stages and seasons of my life, but also their life. So I wanted to bring Jeff on the show. To kind of paint the different seasons of life, but also then to ask us questions about those different seasons from our Enneagram perspective. So we have a type seven, a type eight, a type two and me a type nine. Of course, we would love to have all nine Enneagram types here, but that could take for a very long podcast or only one or two questions. And that's it. So I invited these moms because I've known. Uh, they've used the Enneagram for a long time. They're Enneagram coaches with us. So they are really well versed in it. Um, or Angie, who is one of my dear friends and who started our podcast with us, uh, is super well versed in it. So I wanted to paint that picture for you because a lot of times people think my new book Enneagram for moms, which was just released last week. Um, that it's really just for young moms. It is. And it's for really every stage of life. In fact, I would say I'm using the Enneagram just as much, if not more than ever with our adult children, because now we really have to have those conversations. I want to know, you know, am I Um, understanding you, how can I support you and how can I see the world through your lens? Um, and am I doing anything that I need to apologize for? And we can have those conversations. So using the Enneagram and what my book is about is not just for young moms. It's for all moms, young moms, uh, grandmothers, great grandmothers. There's never a better time than where you are right now to start using this tool for enormous clarity to help yourself in your own story, but also to help your relationships. So I brought Jeff in, he's going to really walk us through those different seasons, ask some really great questions and give us some insights even from, you know, being a pastor for over 20 years. And using the Enneagram alongside me. So I'm really excited to have them here to navigate this conversation. So let's just jump right in and listen to the conversation we had today.

Jeff: 3:19

Well, thank you all for joining us to Talk about motherhood and all of the unique seasons as a woman that you walk through as it relates to your role as mom. And 1 of the reasons why this is such an important thing is that the Enneagram is not just for young moms. It's. Beth is still finding that the enneagram is still relevant for her now as a grandma. What's your your grandmother name? Mima. Mima, that's right. And you're Peppa. And I'm Peppa. We went with southern names because we're in Nashville and we were gonna be

Beth: 3:49

we're gonna be Mimi and Papa But then Nate with the grand dogs was kind of joking around like Mima, Peppa And then we were all kind of. I think I was

Jeff: 3:58

Peppa for a while. Yeah, we

Beth: 3:59

were all kind of laughing about it And And then it kind of just stuck. We were like, yeah, it's kind of fun and funny. And so that's what we are.

Jeff: 4:05

That's what we were doing yesterday. Taking care of Augie. Mm hmm. Yeah. Or Gills. That's the other name. That's his nickname. That's the private family name I guess. But I, Beth and I have been talking about this because the Enneagram has had particular relevance in each season of the show. Her story as a mom. And so she asked that I would step in to just ask you all questions. Cause she didn't want to necessarily have to lead the conversation, but rather just participate and be able to comment on it.

Beth: 4:37

So before we actually dive into Jeff's questions, I want to Everyone to get to know who you are, when you started using the Enneagram and your kids ages then, and what ages are they now? So your type, where you're from and your kind of kiddo ages and stuff like that. So, uh, Amy, let's start with you.

Amy: 5:00

Yes, I'm Amy Wicks and I am currently in Kansas City. I say I'm a type 7, a social 7 with an 8 wing. Um, though, after lots of conversation, plenty of 6 wings does show up too. But, I have 3 kids and we, I still, I found out about Enneagram. We're really dug into Enneagram. about 2016. Now, you're asking me to do a hard math question here on the fly, but I think, if I can think really quick, I think that means they were about 10, 9, and 7 or 6. I had three kids in three and a half years, so they're all teenagers now. I've got one leaving the nest, but, so they were really little, and I definitely erred on the side then of using it for me. And, oh man, so, so grateful that I had the Enneagram when I did, and wished at that point I had had it sooner, but certainly as I'm navigating these really tumultuous teenage years, I'm so glad I have it. It's been amazing.

Beth: 6:07

Awesome. Well, what about you? Right.

Ro: 6:13

not far from Beth and Jeff. Um, I have been married for 43 years. I have five adult children ranging from 41. She's not going to appreciate that. Um, down to 26. I have nine grandchildren. So the Enneagram, that's part of, A bit of my story, um, showed up at a very crossroad time for me after my last child left the nest and I was lost. And the Enneagram was so impactful and it helped put me on a different path that I couldn't have imagined being on right now. I am a type 2 and that is part of why I was lost. Um, I put all my eggs in my children's basket and the thing I learned about eggs is they grow up and they fly and that basket was empty. And I was empty. So, um, the Enneagram came at a very, very important time in my life. And I can say, I wish I would have had it when my kids were younger, but I think we undersell the value of it with adult children. When your children get married and new people show up, these strangers show up to be part of your family. And actually I know I'm going to be a better grandmother. I'm already looking at some of my kids. I think I, grandkids can tell some of their numbers a little bit and I'll interact with them very different than I would have if I didn't know the enneagram.

Beth: 7:51

And Angie, what about you?

Angie: 7:53

So I am in Orlando, Florida, and I, alongside Beth and Jeff McCord, started your Any Graham Coach the podcast. I

Beth: 8:02

Yes,

Angie: 8:03

to say that

Beth: 8:05

She's, it's her fault. I remember asking

Jeff: 8:07

you, Angie, whatever, I forgot the restaurant that we were at, but I said, are you sure we're ready to start a podcast? You're like, yes, Jeff,

Angie: 8:15

I was just so surprised that that was even a question in your mind. We were at Saltgrass Steakhouse in Orlando. I totally remember it.

Jeff: 8:25

So funny.

Angie: 8:26

And

Jeff: 8:28

to a 60 world.

Angie: 8:31

I know. Right. Anyway, so I am a podcast or podcasting has been kind of what I do really since 2017 and I probably found the Enneagram, um, about a year later when, well, maybe about the. That same time I was in counseling and my counselor introduced me to it. And then I actually met Beth and we started doing some, some coaching back in the day. And, um, that's how we got connected. Then we started the podcast together, but Robert and I have been married for 28 years this year, and we have three kids together. So they are 23, 21, and 19 now. So two in college, one just graduated. So when I first started using the Enneagram, they were all young teenagers, really. And of course I had that leaning to try to figure out what their types were, but I realized pretty quickly because of working with you, Beth, that it was more important to know who I was than to try to type them. And um, that has really helped me through the years for sure.

Beth: 9:33

Yeah. Well, thank you guys for being here and just in case anyone doesn't know who I am. I'm Beth McCord married to this guy, Jeff for 29 years. We live just outside of Nashville, Tennessee. And then we have two kiddos who were on the podcast two weeks ago or two weeks prior to when this was released. Um, That's Nate, who's 25, and Libby, who's 23. And Libby has, uh, or is married and has her first grandson August, who of course we adore. Um, and we started using the Enneagram back in 2001 when they were one and three years old. So really they've been brought up with some form or fashion of the Enneagram, whether they had realized it or not. Um, and so that's kind of a fun conversation that we had of what was it like to really kind of be raised. you know, with Enneagram parents. So we have

Jeff: 10:24

confirmed with them. So if there's any publishers listening, they are open to the writing the book, the tell all the Enneagram growing up with the Enneagram

Beth: 10:34

with your Enneagram coach. What was it?

Jeff: 10:39

We're waiting for the documentary on

Angie: 10:40

Yeah, absolutely.

Beth: 10:42

docuseries, all the gossip, true crime. Um, so Jeff, um, so I, I wanted you to come on this podcast in particular, cause you know, you were mentored by a pastor who had some just really neat insights, um, just on life in general, being a parents in general, life stages. And so if you could, Could just kind of walk us for through those four stages and then ask us questions regarding parenting and the Enneagram in those stages. I think that would be really a fun conversation for us to have, but I think it'd be really helpful for our audience as well.

Jeff: 11:19

Well, the, the whole goal of this is just understanding that there, it's interesting to hear that the Enneagram had specific insight and impact at each season because each season presented certain challenges. So the first season that we want to talk about is that late teenager, early 20 something as a woman trying to figure out who you are as a woman, but separate from your family of origin. Now, the interesting thing about that is that usually what happens is that certain types play certain roles within the family that those roles are reinforced by the family and sometimes they might be disliked or sometimes they may be preferred over their other types. But so in trying to figure out who you were as a woman, what were the no's? What were the yes's? Who do I want to be that's different from my family? What do I want to stop from happening? Could be dysfunction. So whoever would like to go first, but what was that experience like for you as a young mom? Maybe you didn't know the Enneagram. That's okay. But what were some of the questions that you were asking yourself and some of the thoughts that you had about becoming your own, having your own identity apart from your family?

Beth: 12:34

Oh, and. Amy is a type seven and Ro had said she's a type two and Angie is a type eight and I'm a type nine. So just in case, as we go through it. So who would like to start?

Amy: 12:48

Okay, I want to clarify. You've mentioned kind of an age range, but I was 27 when I first became a mom. So, There is a little bit of a different experience of those late teen 20s into becoming moms, so I'm just, like,

Beth: 13:05

So we're not talking, we're not talking about motherhood yet, right?

Jeff: 13:08

That's right. This, this is when you just, you as a woman apart from kids, because that becomes the thing, like whenever we do have children, how do you not lose yourself while in the midst of parenting? So there's still this.

Beth: 13:22

So I'll start. So with my family of origin, the role I played was the peacemaker, the peacekeeper, like just go along to get along, um, a type seven father who like, let's just keep everything positive and let's not deal with the hard things in life. So, you know, if I was struggling, somehow you had to talk about it in a more lighthearted, positive way to actually be heard. Um, and then with my mom being a type six. Then do I really want to share everything because then it could be come her anxiety. And now I have to guarantee that. And so. When I was, when I, um, and so I kind of really enmeshed, of course, it being a nine myself with them and thought that was obviously completely normal, because this is all that I knew. So when I was trying to differentiate and know myself, I didn't even know who that was because I went along with what they thought was right. And so I didn't have a foundation to really even. clarity of who I was and that's why then at age 26, when a friend showed us the Enneagram, that it made sense. And I was starting to then get that clarity. But so I probably wouldn't have quote unquote differentiated or launched myself had I not had the Enneagram because I would have just kept enmeshing

Jeff: 14:44

and

Beth: 14:44

blending.

Jeff: 14:45

I'm just thinking when we got married at 20, you were not differentiated from your parents. I

Beth: 14:49

wasn't.

Jeff: 14:49

No. And

Beth: 14:50

mines don't want to be because it's not, it doesn't feel safe.

Jeff: 14:53

Oh gosh. I can remember just being almost a threat.

Beth: 14:58

Oh, you were. And sometimes you still are. not playing by the family rules, which is good, but it feels tight. I didn't even know there were rules

Jeff: 15:07

in there and I would just

Beth: 15:08

go break it. There's lots of rules. So anyway, that hopefully that that gives you guys a picture of what it is we're talking about this age range.

Amy: 15:20

Yeah. That's just such a good. Yeah. It's such a good question. And I wish that everyone was asked this question at this stage. And I, I feel so hopeful for my kids because as you know, I shared, I'm watching a kid that those are the kind of conversations we're having ahead of time. And it's like, Oh man, our, Our ceiling gets to be their floor. What a beautiful thing. But yeah, I don't, I don't think I really did, or I understood that I needed to, because I, I was the oldest of four, pastor's kid, an SRP, super responsible person. And I was also my mom's emotional crutch. Um, we had loads of dysfunction and you know, I don't want to dishonor, but it was a really, really, really Um, situation that I was coming from and didn't even have language or understanding. But when I jumped into an internship at a church, we were doing personality things and usually distests and Myers Briggs in the late nineties. But I still didn't understand that I could be fully who I was designed to be because a more assertive, louder, a person woman in the church. It's just like who I felt like I wanted to be to be fully me wasn't really welcomed or accepted. And, and so I, it was kind of guising myself, but then at the same time, people mistrusted because I was black. positive and joyful and, and, and happy because I just wanted everyone to like me and to be the fun person. And so that was definitely, you know, there was a lot of, um, a people in that time and there really wasn't a grounding, a great, resource at that point in my life to, to help me be comfortable and, and be able to celebrate who the Lord had created me to be. So, um, so yeah, it was definitely a topsy turvy and I think it's prolonged some of the healing and growing process even that I still have, I'm still unpacking in my mid forties. So, uh, you know, very grateful that I can at least give this to my kids to just be a little bit clearer and celebrate who they were designed to be to begin with.

Beth: 17:33

Yeah,

Jeff: 17:33

it's interesting amy hearing that you grew up in a ministry family. I can remember saying to our kids Hey, your dad is a presbyterian That doesn't make you one You can be whatever what whatever you want to be but just because your dad went to school to be a better one doesn't You can make a bad decision. Yeah, but coaching differentiation One of the very helpful things about the Enneagram is that we are together, but we can be different. Yeah. Well, Angie, I, when I think about Rule Breakers, uh, you as a young woman, I mean, I remember hearing stories about you in seminary and just making waves everywhere you went. What was it like for you in those early years, uh, as a woman?

Angie: 18:19

Yeah, it's interesting because, well, my story is a little bit complicated because as you guys know, I was adopted as a baby. So I have my family that I grew up in, but then I have a family of origin. So when I think of family, I think of the family I grew up in, right. And I have stories. I mean, I have memories from being very early. Very young, where I started kind of detaching or differentiating from my family automatically, like my mother was verbally abusive to me. I came from a very dysfunctional family, and I can remember some of the things that she would say to me, and I would think. A mother should not say that to a child. It was almost like I could step outside and see it and not, I don't know. It's just so interesting. So I think from a very early age, I started pulling away and I do think it was a bit of a control thing for me. Um, And so as I got older, but I did grow up in the church, so I totally identify with Amy and what you're saying about being a strong, opinionated woman that the, the tradition I grew up in is not highly valued. And so, um, I did try to be, I would say I tried to be a two. You know, I as, as, because I felt like I would, that's exactly the model that, um, would be accepted. And so I really tried to be that. And even into my college years, um, as I was around other families and got close to other families, I really tried to be that perfect people pleaser. And there was such a, there was such a, um, rub there for me and my personality. I was unhappy. And I couldn't figure out why I was unhappy trying to be the things that I thought God was telling me to be.

Beth: 20:10

Right.

Angie: 20:11

And, um, so it really wasn't, I did not find the NERM in my twenties, but it wasn't really until I met my husband, Robert, who allowed me to be who I wanted to be without me feeling like I had to be a certain way where I really became more free, I guess I would say. So, um, yeah. And then. Even, um, detaching from that kind of Enneagram 2 personality that really was not who I was, was all part of my 20s and my growth at that time. Okay.

Ro: 21:12

fat Greek wedding. So, very traditional, and then with a very traditional faith attached to that. We grew up in the northeast, moved to a very southern small town, and my world was rocked, because I never had heard people talk that way, and didn't know what a Baptist was, and all those good things. But, it led me on a journey to find the Lord. in college. And when I did, and I wanted to express that faith in a different way, I was kicked out of my home leading into my leading into my senior year college. Um, so differentiation was made clear for me. Um, but I had never, ever, ever, I never disobeyed my parents. I never, this was huge for me. Cause I was not a rebellious kid. Probably.

Beth: 22:07

anyway, and what's interesting is that the rebellion that you're speaking of is being a Christian in a different way.

Ro: 22:15

Yes, it was. I had never, my dad had a very strong personality, kind of told me how to spend my money, what he would and would pay for me to go to college. And, um, so I, that was huge.

Beth: 22:28

Yeah.

Ro: 22:29

Probably for me, my attachment, it's very strange that my mom, I see this now, I didn't understand at the time. My mom actually gave. mothering over to my sister who was really just 17 months older than me. So for me, my journey of differentiation has been from my sister actually more than my parents. Um, and that took me a long time to unpack again. So in my twenties I had, um, I was deep, deep, deep in the hole of anorexia. Um, I was, um, over exercising under eating. My health got destroyed. There was no counseling. That wasn't a thing. And Rexy wasn't even known really in the mainstream. So that's a whole story. So my, my twenties and thirties, and honestly, it was like you, my husband, um, really provided sacred space. For me to heal. Cause as a new mom, I was a hot mess and he grounded our family and grounded me and gave me space to grow. And the Enneagram would have been really helpful to, to help with a lot of that. I was really leaning into a hard one wing. I can look back now with a lot of internal self hatred and perfectionism over myself. So. been a long journey to find who I am as a woman.

Jeff: 23:58

Yeah, Beth, why don't you start off with asking or answering this question? So you're leaving something, you know, you think like a biblical model. I remember Allender talking about leaving and cleaving as it relates to loyalties, like family, leaving family loyalty, um, and cleaving to something else. What is it that as a young mom, now that as you know, as a nine, that you really wanted. In your family that you would have

Beth: 24:27

that was different than my parents.

Jeff: 24:28

It could have been different It could have been the same.

Beth: 24:30

Okay. Um, well, so for me, I I really wanted this isn't gonna be like a surprise that people Let me give you the stereotype of a night Here it is. Here's the definition. Um, but I wanted to have deep healthy connection with You and my kids You At whether whatever stage of life they were, I wanted them to know that I was their greatest advocate there, the champion behind them, the one that would back them up or support them, not judge them. Um, but at the same time, as best I could provide boundaries. you know, rules, discipline, when and where needed. Um, that was like, you know, and so I always try to paint a picture of what I was hoping for them in the future and then taking appropriate steps along the way to get there. Of course, derailing most days, but then trying to get back on track, but that was the ultimate.

Jeff: 25:35

I'm just curious, but yeah, we're going to get into that next. Uh, Angie, what about you? What, What did you aspire to or what did you value that may have been separate, different from family of origin, but also like something that you wanted to create that meant a lot to you?

Angie: 25:51

Well, this might be a little bit surprising to people who have an idea of what AIDS are. And I think this is one of the reasons that AIDS are so misunderstood, but I would say probably my top priority in being a mom was to be a nurturer.

Beth: 26:07

Sure.

Angie: 26:08

who absolutely nurtured and loved and cared for her little chicks, you know, um, I never felt that. And so I was definitely missing that in my childhood. And so that comes out in, in, um, kind of the way of protection for me a lot, which I'm sure is not surprising, but, um, Yeah, that, that nurturing component, I, I really identify with a lot of what you said as well, Beth, um, but for sure, and, and also just having their back, my kids back, just having it all the time. Absolutely.

Beth: 26:46

of words, vocabulary, terminology, however you want to say it, that fits into a stereotype for certain people. So like a lot of times we think of nurture being a two, but we're all nurturers. And so, but what you, what you did was to show I wanted to nurture my kids, but some of the backbone to that was really protecting and providing, which is very Adish. Now, of course I want to protect my kids, but I was just trying to nuance how beautiful that is. That. As an ape mom, your gift in nurturing was setting them up well and to protect them, to provide for them, to make sure that they could care for themselves in the future.

Jeff: 27:33

and Roe, what about you? So you came from a strong Italian family with a lot of big personality. What did that look like for when you wanted to shape a family?

Ro: 27:44

It's fun. I wanted a quieter home.

Jeff: 27:47

They're just

Ro: 27:48

A little bit. I looked at my husband and said, whatever your family did, that's what we're doing. But really it was the connection. I just, I want to, sounds ninish, but in the two way, I wanted peace. I want it calm. I wanted family dinners where we sat and had conversations. My husband actually had teach me how to do that. I wanted it. But I didn't know how to do it. I mean, we were having, just before kids, we were having dinner, we'd be finished and I'd be like scooping up the plates before he, it was like, well, we're going to sit down and have a conversation. It's like, Oh, okay. But I longed for that. I just didn't know how to do it. And it sounds strange, but he had a model, a lot of that for me. he's, he's a nine on the Enneagram. So he is a very connected person too. So he could model a lot of that of how to connect to kids hearts. I never had it, but I wanted peace and I wanted connection and I wanted that deep relationship.

Jeff: 28:53

Hmm. Let's be now. This is interesting because, uh, Angie, you're married to a nine and Amy, uh, what's your spouse?

Amy: 29:03

Yep. He's a nine.

Jeff: 29:04

Okay. Now, see, this is,

Beth: 29:06

y'all are just amazing. People married to a nine.

Amy: 29:10

We just know how

Beth: 29:11

you guys are so amazing.

Jeff: 29:12

Your life is so amazing. You're married to a nine. Yeah. going to come back to this, but I want to give Amy a chance to answer the initial question about what is it that, what, what did you value or did, what was your vision for family? But I also want to come back to the question is, how did Marion nine help? you like in accomplishing your vision for the family. Um, how did they become? Because it sounds like both Angie and wrote like your spouses came a place for you to be yourself. Uh, nines are great about creating space for that. Um, even to their own expense, I'll disappear for you to have a personality. Um, but so, uh, Amy, what about you? Uh, what did you foresee? What would you value? What shaped your idea of family?

Amy: 30:01

Well, I do fall in the idealist triad and I have seen that play into my motherhood for sure, especially as I'm grieving the The, you know, the entrance of teenage years and all that, that means totally surprised me. I can't believe it because I've looked forward. I've looked ahead. I've been so excited for this, but I really wanted to have my kids feel taken care of in a way that I didn't. And alongside of that taken care of was to have all the experiences, to be the spontaneous, fun loving, wonderful, We're going to do these things. And, and if you want a friend over last minute, sure, we'll make that happen. You want a calendar full? Yes, I will fill that calendar. And so I have, um, sometimes I feel like I've created monsters. Um, but at the same time, I love it when they're like, mom, thanks for, you know, letting us do all these things or being spontaneous or when they, they name that quality. It makes me feel so happy, and I do constantly ask, do you feel like, am I taking care of you? And, you know, so in my mistyping and, and, and all that whole process, it's just really funny that I've actually, it, it makes so much sense as I look through my motherhood, um, maybe even more, you know, more clearly than anything else in life.

Jeff: 31:26

So back to the spouse question about marrying nine, are

Beth: 31:30

you going to answer this too? No,

Jeff: 31:33

interviewer. Uh, uh, but why do you think you gravitated to a nine?

Ro: 31:44

met my husband when I was 15, um, my counselor, after she poked a lot of holes in making sure I wasn't covering up for not a good man, she really looked at me and said, I wouldn't say this, but you were rescued at 15. and the trajectory I would have been on. So he's pretty wholehearted guy. Um, but I think that ability for a nine to hold space without judgment, he held space for me when I was in places, most people wouldn't have held space. Um, all like through high school, through college, When I would cry at night and tell him I was the worst mother ever in the world and I shouldn't be a mom and all those things. He held me. He held space. He, he encouraged me. Um, that's, that's the gift nines bring. And when they're healthy and they're not lose, totally losing themselves, he didn't lose himself. He could hold who he was, his autonomy, why he could hold that space for me. That's pretty rare. And I, it's a gift.

Beth: 33:02

Yeah. what about you?

Angie: 33:05

I think, yeah, I think for, for me, Robert, it really, his confidence and who he was and his gifting and what he was called to and not ever feeling threatened by me, but actually enjoying the fact that I had opinions and that I was weird and silly and, and, but not acting like it. I was a weirdo, you know, I think that was part of it. I think also his, his, um, just his calming presence. I mean, that's so, so nine, but I mean, he, he really is. He's he leads the music team at our church and I'm telling you to be the leader of creatives and be a calming presence is. Just the best gift in the world for, for the people he leads. And it is for our family too. I mean, the, the calming presence when I'm all up hot and bothered is it's a real gift, you know, it really is.

Jeff: 34:03

I've not heard that

Beth: 34:05

in a long time. Amy, what about you?

Amy: 34:10

Yeah, well, we're 20 years in and so maybe the things that attracted him to me then like now sort of irritate him because, you know, like, because I'm fully who the Lord put in my heart now I'm healed. I'm doing good. But, um, but I really, I think that whole element of Of bringing stability and calm to my anxiety of a seven. And then I was trying to get probably as opposite as I could. And my, my dad is a seven and that's, um, there's a lot of pain and dysfunction there, and so I really wanted opposite of that and even why it's been hard to grasp that. There is a similar personality in me. And so, um, just having that anchor of being very, very different and very reliable. And, and even though like those things eventually midway through kind of drive you crazy, cause I'm like, let's change. And he's like, no, we're staying and we're staying for another 20 years. I, but that's why. I loved him because I didn't know that. Um, I had never experienced it. So very, very grateful to that. Like, you know, it's sometimes extreme and sometimes opposite. And so grateful for the grounding steadiness that his nine offers.

Ro: 35:33

Can I give a quick analogy, maybe when people were married to nines and those of us had bigger personalities, it was like my husband, I said, like I was a kite and he was an anchor and he kept me from flying out in the wild blue yonders. But I also helped. him not stay stuck.

Beth: 35:57

Amen on that one.

Ro: 35:59

So I think when I,

Jeff: 36:01

Jeff loves it that I, I love, I love

Beth: 36:05

and hate that Jeff helps me not to stay stuck. Everything in me wants, cause it's inertia, right? What's in motion stays in motion. What's not in motion is not going to move. And when we are stuck. We can actually think we're cozy and comfy in our stuckness. Like, no, I'm good. We're fine. And, but I also know that that's not good. And so he definitely helps me whether I like it sometimes or not to get out of the inertia problem that I'm in. Well,

Angie: 36:38

an immo, I am an unstoppable force, and meeting an immovable object. That is the eight in the nine inertia. I think the kite and the anchor is much better.

Beth: 36:50

and I always tell people a science or the most stubborn on the Enneagram, like a lot of times

Angie: 36:54

One hundred percent.

Beth: 36:56

Until they're close to a nine because lines, you know, we're pretty flexible. Most of the time, but when we're not flexible, we are unmovable.

Angie: 37:06

That's exactly right. Silence.

Jeff: 37:20

God's providence that all of the strategies that we then cultivate and bring to our family to try to bring our own healing, he sort of frustrates because people are going to frustrate those efforts. Um, and the years of motherhood, like I, I, You know, you, you set this ideal vision of what you want family to be life, your children's personalities, disagreements with spouse, all kinds of things, maybe even your family of origin kind of come back at you and are fighting you against these values. I'd love to hear how, what has your experience been that although you set out on this path to create this family that you've always longed for? And then when life didn't cooperate with you, how did you respond to the tension of staying present, but maybe reevaluating? Yeah. What is it that I really wanted and how can I still maintain my values that I have for my family? But think of it through the lens of your time.

Beth: 38:28

I think for me, I, I think we talked about this and I can almost remember where we were talking about it, but I think I was like, you know, Living out the fruits of the spirit was way easier when I was single and didn't have children.

Jeff: 38:46

You were the most kindest loving person ever. To myself. So patient. I was kind to myself, patient

Beth: 38:52

with myself, you know, and, but these people have thwarted it, you know, and it's like, no, actually what's in your heart is now just really coming out. So, um, I think for me, when my ideals of what the family, I wanted,

Angie: 39:09

Silence.

Beth: 39:23

how, how is harming or hurting yourself internally help you to become that ideal mom? Um, but that's how, you know, we can think and

Jeff: 39:32

I learned in seminary, uh, grace works, but shame works faster.

Beth: 39:37

Well, you think it does just harms more. So I, um, yeah. So I think for a long time, I, So I think, um, I mean, definitely I had moments of growth and like, you know, really was imparting great things to the kids, but I would say I did a lot of it under, um, the guys of fear and like the fear of abandonment of the family, meaning not that you guys would actually leave, but that there would be an abandonment of connection or abandonment of love or abandonment that I would have self worth.

Jeff: 40:16

Right. A lot of people have make, say the phrase in their head. I'm not enough.

Beth: 40:21

Yeah.

Jeff: 40:22

For you. What do you think? How would you define that more specifically as an I'm not enough?

Beth: 40:28

Yeah. So in my world, it was based at the root. It was if people, if anyone's not happy in some form or fashion. I am not enough. So if the kids are whining or they're upset or they're dissatisfied or grumpy, or, I mean, you name it, it just said to my nine heart. see, you're not enough. You're not being a good mom. Even though logically I knew that, let's say in the moment I was doing the right healthy thing, everything internally was saying you're being a bad mom right now because now look, they're upset or whatever it is. Um, and so that's where I would trip up as a nine.

Jeff: 41:13

Well, row, let's start with you. Um, whenever life started pushing back on trying to create this new family, how did you respond to it? Yep.

Ro: 41:26

because of what I was doing to my body, my, after the birth of my third child, my body said no more, I'm done. I was diagnosed with lupus autoimmune disease. So this ideal mom that I was going to be where I was going to make the memories and I was going to, I was trying to do everything. everything in a very short amount of time that my parents didn't do for me. And so when I think about also a message that was sent to me when I was young, it was about being selfish. And so as a two, any thought of for yourself, is selfish. So now I am chronically ill. Some days barely could get out of bed. So talk about that negative self worth. I'm a selfish mom. I'm a bad mom because I wasn't doing for my kids. And so that was a very, those were hard, hard, hard years. Probably what I got through out of that was my self worth and who I was could not be attached to what I did. Because I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I mean, the, the idolatry of the mother, I wanted my kids to worship. I mean, I was going hard after that was just crumbled. And I remember thinking they're going to, they think mom is somebody lays on the couch. And if you talk to my Those older three, I think they think I'm making it up because they go, I don't remember you like that. But in your mind, the enemy's there to say that's all they're going to remember. That's all they're going to read. So life just crashed hard on me. And so I physically, emotionally, spiritually, I couldn't do it. And it was like God started, that's when my healing process started actually, is when I was so, my body just shut down on me.

Jeff: 43:25

Yes. Well, Amy, let's go to you. How did you respond with life pushback?

Amy: 43:31

Yeah, I think, I think for us, a lot of it was we, We had, we didn't think we could maybe have our own kids. And then we had three and three and a half years. And within that had, um, job loss, we moved to another state without any family. And, um, we, I kind of found myself with three little kids exhausted. We financially were really strapped and had started over in our early thirties. And it was like, talk about limitations and limitations was a dirty word. And not, you know, yes, and not being able to have the energy or the availability or the opportunity. And we also just didn't even have community in those early days. So I feel like that was another, it was a deep layer of, of healing, but also coming to Jesus where there, you know, you have those marker moments. And that was a coming to the end of myself, the bottom of the U moment. And the only way out was. And so coming to that, and I think rediscovering who I was apart from a role, you know, we talk about that, right? Our twenties, we established some of that identity and it could be all the volunteer, the kind of friend I was, the kind of, you know, role that I had in, in relationships, even in family. And, um, And I, I was always fearful that my kids would remember my hypercritical moments of myself and of them

Angie: 45:02

Hmm.

Amy: 45:03

when anger that was so not my M O, but the frustration would come out sideways because it was trying so hard to be positive and have fun and pretend like everything was okay. And then those sideways moments, you know, I, I absolutely apologized a lot to the kids when They were little and I didn't even know what to do about it. I, you know, I just felt alone and going, who is this and how am I this way? And this is opposite of how I want to be. This is not my idea of an ideal mom at all. Um, and I, like, it was just, it's just so powerful again, even though it happened later to have some language around why that time was so hard and so refining and, and frustrating. Um, It's just, it's even been really beautiful to have conversations now, which again, kind of like you said, Ro, when I talk about those moments, like I can remember some key moments, like potty training moments or whatever, and they're like, what are you talking about? Like I got so angry and then I was angry at myself because I was not being the calm, cool, fun mom. So certainly refining years. And I think, I think that's what. motherhood really is.

Angie: 46:15

Mm hmm.

Amy: 46:16

just the total dying of to yourself and all those things. And, and by the grace of God, some of us get to find ourselves and rediscover ourselves in a, in a more beautiful way.

Beth: 46:28

And I would say, and you alluded to this and repairing, right? Cause I mean, Jeff knows that apologizing hasn't been my like easiest skillset, but I've gotten better over the years. I do acknowledge, you know, where I've had a shortcoming, I've been hurtful, whatever it is, admitted it and apologized and, um, you know, ask them, you know, how I could like mend or repair, it means so much to them. And that's the beautiful thing. I think of. Having kids, like I'm not saying they're always going to forgive of all things, but kids are usually pretty quick to, um, forgive when apologies are done well and in the right way. And that, but I would say so, cause we're all going to make mistakes. All of us, I don't care what type you are. We're going to make mistakes, but if we can own it and restore that relationship, that's really where. No,

Jeff: 47:31

Angie, you've never faced a problem that you can't get through. So like you just handle it with strength and dignity and just closure.

Angie: 47:40

I

Jeff: 47:41

were the excellent mom.

Angie: 47:42

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, it's, it's so funny, Amy, because I had, I have such a similar connection to your story. We moved to a new city in 2009. My kids were fourth, third grade, first grade and pre K and we actually, we moved to Orlando, you know, the happiest place on earth, and I was really excited about it when we moved here with little kids, getting to raise your kids in Orlando. I mean, it sounds like a dream. I mean, But we also found ourselves really financially strapped and I, that we cannot underestimate the pressure that that puts on all members of the family, but especially the parents and living under that, um, pressure, but also having very young children. I also have memories of angry outbursts. Um, I can remember even prior to that, before we moved, when I was potty training my oldest child. It's so funny that you mentioned potty training. When I was potty training, my oldest child, I remember one specific incident where I got so angry. I was not violent, but I yelled for sure. And, um, I remember praying afterwards, God, please don't let him remember this. Please wipe this from his memory. Anyway, um, but it's so funny how that really does bring, bring out the emotion in us. Um, but those years were so hard for me and I, I think I really what had this underlying anger the whole time and probably didn't even realize it until years later when I found the Enneagram and I found out I was a type eight and I thought I'm not an angry person. And then I started remembering all these moments and started noticing how uncomfortable I was with my kids anger. So they would get angry and I would think, What is this feeling? Like, why do I hate that so bad? And I realized it was because I wasn't even comfortable with my own anger. And, um, so yeah, I would say even, even just stopping to feel the feelings or letting them feel those feelings was something I did not do when they were younger that I wish I could redo. But, you know, even now that I'm parenting, mostly adult children, learning to just listen and hold them in their feelings and hold space for them, it's, has been a growth point for me. Okay.

Jeff: 50:03

stuff, but in, you know, the, the hero's journey is that whenever they reach this critical point, they realize that, Oh, wait a minute. There's a, there's another, Gift that I have that gets me through it. So I'd love to hear from each of you What did you discover was the real gift that you had? To give to your kids, you come to your end, like I, I, I've just proven my greatest fear. And yet, you know, the, the great quote is, uh, the cave you fear holds the treasure you seek. What was the gift that you found that you actually have to contribute to the kids?

Beth: 50:37

Yeah. I mean, I think for, for me, as you said at the first thing that came to mind and being in the gut triad, I will speak to it. Um, was my. assertive leadership in starting your enneagram.

Jeff: 50:53

It was not your people pleasing.

Beth: 50:54

It wasn't my people pleasing. It wasn't accommodating. It was, this is who I am and I'm going to move into it.

Angie: 51:02

yeah. Silence.

Amy: 51:20

it was some of those, it was potty training too. But that coming to the end of myself led me to. Embrace the present to where, you know, someone who was always looking ahead and wanting our options and wanting everything excited to, like, let myself be stuck and to enjoy the fact that I was stuck with them and that this and being able to see how precious that was. This present moment was and, and of course, learning to make it fun for all it was worth finding all the watering holes in Kansas City, because what do you do? Um, but like that really changed. I really, I remember stepping into and what I would call intentional parenting in a way that I have no regrets over and it changed the trajectory of my parenting for sure. I

Beth: 52:11

love that. Angie, what was your gift?

Angie: 52:14

Yeah, so, you know, the anger that I spoke of, I think a lot of that also came from feeling controlled by my children because they were so dependent on me. And I, I would find myself in angry situations when they couldn't tie their shoe,

Beth: 52:29

Mm

Angie: 52:30

you know, like you need to be able to do this. Or, um, when my daughter has really curly hair and she refused to learn how to do her hair. And so I was forced to either let her just go with her hair undone or do it. And then as she became a middle schooler and really got more self conscious about how she looked, but still wouldn't do her hair. It was like a burden on me. I have to do her hair. I literally have to do it. And I felt so controlled by that. But what I learned is because I would push my kids to be more independent, they really learned to fly in ways that I would have never, I would have never dreamed that they would learn to fly. My husband loves to tell the story that. All my kids are musicians and my oldest, especially as a keyboard player. And they had auditions for chapel band at school. And my husband is a extremely talented piano player. So for him being ready for something means something totally different than it does for me when it comes to piano. And so what my son was in the seventh grade and I was like, well, you're going to, You're going to audition right to be in the chapel band and my husband went, Oh my gosh, he's not ready for that. He is not ready. And I said, can you play one? Can you play four? Can you play a five? You're ready. And so, because I pushed that, he went and auditioned. Of course, that's what he's doing now. But my husband loves to tell that story because Robert as a nine was like, he's not ready. He needs more time. He's got it. And I was like, Oh no, he's ready. Let him fly. Let him fly.

Jeff: 54:05

Let him fly. Oh, that's

Angie: 54:06

yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: 54:09

Ro?

Ro: 54:10

I think for so, so long, I couldn't have named any positive mother skills. I was in such a negative hole. Um, at one point, one of my sons told me, quit telling us what a horrible mother you were. And so for me, I think my kids, I, um, Again, had three very close together miscarriages, health crash, had two later in life in my late 30s, and I homeschooled through all that. Um, I think what my children would say, I modeled for them, and what I found was a tenacity in me. I think when they talk to me now, they saw me overcome. A lot, because I just didn't have a foundation. I was, I was coming from a pretty deep hole. And I think now I, the perseverance in the pushing through and the grace that they have given me, the grace God has given me. And I now can turn to young moms and saying, I'm telling you, he can. Repair it all for as bad as you think at those moments. I'm talking about learning. I had to learn to tell my kids, I'm sorry, it was not modeled for me. And I remember the first time I felt the Lord whisper that to me. And I was like, no, you don't. I'm the boss, you know, you don't apologize. And I remember I went and said, well, I'm sorry. I lost my temper again. Like you, I didn't even know. I had any anger until my daughter turned three because I'd stuffed it all. My family was explosive. And when I was in seventh grade, I grit my teeth. And I said, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. So I flatlined my emotions until my, my Enneagram eight, three year old started inserting her independence on me. And all of a sudden this monster showed up. But in that learning to say, I was sorry. And to say, but if you wouldn't have went, you know, and the God said, quit being a butt and drop it. And then, but I had to learn to, I ruptured so much, but I did learn to repair. And I think Beth, you said it. I think kids when they know I'm telling I don't think there's any phase in life harder than your 30s to about mid 40s. I think that's the hardest there is because you are dads are working. Moms are working. Kids are. I mean, every, every decision feels like. It weighs 100

Beth: 56:51

Mm

Ro: 56:52

and every decision you think is going to mortally wound your Children forever. And I think it's so, so hard. And I'm just here to say, God, God will get you through because I, if he could get me and my family through, he can get anybody through.

Jeff: 57:10

Yeah. Well, um, the last season I'd like to focus on, uh, I like to think of it, um, the metaphor that Beth and I use is, um, we've, it's like a rocket taking off. So for years, we've built a launch pad. In this beautiful rocket and then eventually they get to take off Uh, it takes a lot of fuel for them to get out of our atmosphere

Angie: 57:39

Okay.

Jeff: 57:40

and It burns up the launch pad On the way up And that the way that happens it could be just styles of living preferences of faith values behaviors, uh There's all kinds of ways that they will distance and kind of draw new boundaries that reshape the family. Uh, a friend and signary thought of families as people on an inner tube in the water. Everybody has a place and everybody has to adjust to everyone else on the inner tube. And now someone's moving. They might, as Ro mentioned earlier, they may bring spouses, uh, onto that inner tube. And they jump on and they cause a disruption to the whole family. Everyone's got to adjust. Everyone's got to adjust. So I'd love to hear. So, you know, Beth and Ro, you're both grandparents now, grandmothers. Um, and then, you know, Amy and Angie, you've got teenage children who are finding their voice and kind of setting a path now. So I'd love to hear, how do you relate to this new relationship of you're still a parent, but also you're becoming a peer?

Beth: 58:51

Yeah.

Angie: 58:52

Um, Okay.

Beth: 58:54

I think for me, It's, it's really exciting, but it's also really scary because, you know, my ideal is that we'd have this great connection and nothing's ever wrong.

Angie: 59:04

Okay.

Beth: 59:11

today and how we. Needed to differentiate from our parents and look at where they, you know, were harmful or they missed it or they try, but they just didn't get it. You know that, um, they had strengths, but they also had weaknesses and just naming all of that, you know, for my parents, I kind of. You know, it was like, Ooh, uh, that's going to be our kids, but then learning how to welcome that and encourage it, um, is super scary, but it's also really healing, redemptive, and it also enables a stronger

Angie: 59:50

Okay.

Beth: 59:50

connection with. With my kids. So what I actually fear, which would be, let's not talk about anything negative. There's nothing wrong here. People like we have the best family that actually is going to, you know, Um, we can the relationship and harm their relationship. So I often try to ask my kids. you know, about stories of the past or how did they feel? How, how did we miss something? Like, what did we miss? How was that harmful to them? What, what do they want us to know? How can I apologize? Okay. You don't really know that's fine, but think about it because we did hurt you. And so you're going to need a process and let us know because we do want. To repair and move forward. And, and it's always, you never know, cause they're going to have an epiphanies between now and tell whenever, you know, they're 80 years old. We won't be around then, but, um, always inviting them to share that with us. And I think when we have that kind of posture, then they can come to us with a Um, maybe humility, but also tenderness, um, versus I think when parents are not open to it, their kids have to come in a lot more harsh or disruptive. And so we've had some really good, hard conversations over many years, um, and sadly hear things that we didn't know that hurt or harm them.

Jeff: 1:01:16

Yeah. As a six, who's always trying to prepare for. In that salute or situations, are they still surprised me by the stuff they bring up? Like, that was hurtful to you. What about the top five that I've got rolling around in my head?

Angie: 1:01:32

Um,

Beth: 1:01:32

And so, you know, for me, I, I want the legacy to be that we hold the position of being humble mentor friends that walk alongside them now who are willing to listen and own what's ours. Even if we didn't even mean to, like, sometimes I'm giving the best of who I am. And it totally landed on them a different way. And that's okay. Like I can say, wow, I really was giving you lessons in empathy and compassion. And you took it like my son being a six, you took it that you have to be ultra loyal to a point that it was harmful. Like, Oh man, I'm so sorry that that landed on you that way. So it's just such a mixed bag of everything. But I think that's. The legacy I'm hoping to pass on. So

Jeff: 1:02:25

Ro, you, you multiplied and so you have a lot of opportunities for

Ro: 1:02:30

So many, so many opportunities,

Angie: 1:02:32

Silence.

Ro: 1:02:35

dreamt. Um, Beth, I think you're so right. And honestly, this is probably, I'll try to keep, this is my passion because I am seeing so many people in this stage of life. Not, it's not going well, they're not doing well, especially moms are not releasing well, um, that topography of the family when that first one walks out the door, it's like an earthquake and it changes the topography forever. It is never coming back and we can know that in our head and go, oh, this is really good, but there's something else that's going on in our heart. And so I really, we, well, like you, Beth, we welcomed our kids. To come back and say anything they needed to say because it is not worth it to me for them to carry baggage, all the baggage that I had to carry into their future. And so we said, look, honestly, at how you were raised. We did some things good and the things that you want to carry into your family, carry them. The others leave it behind. You're not loyal. We have to speak that freedom. You were talking about Dan Allender and the leaving and cleaving. I don't think we, we get as gritty with newlyweds of what that actually means, of how they really do need to leave. The family of origin. Um, it's hard when your kids come back and we've had some kids with our couple kids came back guns a blazing and we were a little bit surprised. But if you can hold steady why they do, I'm telling you the connection. The healing, the relationship will far exceed what you had before, before they did it. If you need to go to counseling with one, we went to counseling with one of our kids when she went to college. She struggled really a lot. A lot came out and we were willing to go to counseling with her. I think this is where the Enneagram work at this age for women and men, but for moms, put your oxygen mask on first. Do your work. So my need to be loved is not attached to my children needing me in wanting me. And if I still had that at play, they couldn't come back and be honest with me.

Beth: 1:05:02

Mm-Hmm.

Ro: 1:05:03

And so whatever your number, whatever that core fear is, let Jesus heal it. So you, your kids can detach and you detach from them. And God was very merciful because my firstborns. And she's been married now 16 years and I could go into all the stories when she first got married, but choose like boundaries. What's a boundary, you know, and she lives boundary. She's one of the most boundary. And I'm saying that in a positive way, a boundary person. I know God was merciful to give me that firstborn. It didn't feel good at times, but it helped me understand. My boundaries. And again, the Enneagram showed up all at this time and I, it, I think it saved my relationship with my daughter in law's I

Jeff: 1:05:57

Mm-Hmm?

Ro: 1:05:58

um, Oh, Oh, dear mamas. I love my daughter in law's they are awesome, but I'm telling you, and the sibling relationships. daughter in laws to sister in laws now. It's so many dynamics and I don't mean to scare y'all still have teenagers at home because we think that's the scariest part, but you're still in the center. You're still there. You can navigate and you can pull people together. When fam adults start splitting, which I've seen in friendships, start splitting, Parents have to be Switzerland. We, we, unless those adult children invite us in, we will do way more harm. And talking about scary not being in control.

Beth: 1:06:49

Yeah.

Ro: 1:06:50

And so it is, Enneagram work at this stage of life is

Beth: 1:06:56

Crucial.

Ro: 1:06:57

crucial. It is so crucial.

Beth: 1:07:00

Yeah. I.

Ro: 1:07:01

is,

Beth: 1:07:01

I agree a hundred percent. It's, it is, um, beautiful to use when they're adults. Absolutely beautiful. Cause you can have the language to talk because they're older now, but you're right. The stage is pretty scary. One thing I want to, um, come back to that came to my mind when you guys talked about Dan Allender and what you were saying, I love that book that he wrote, how children raise parents. And it's true. Like, I feel like what I'm hearing from you that God gifting you a type eight daughter really was a gift to help you learn and to grow from her. And I just think we all get to learn from our kids. We get to be curious, walk alongside as parents still, but walk alongside and encourage them. Um,

Jeff: 1:07:49

well, Amy, what about you, how do you navigate these teen years as a seven mom

Beth: 1:07:54

and almost like empty nester?

Amy: 1:07:57

know. Well, on my knees a lot because it just is always really nice when. Parents who are a little head say, Oh, that where the stage you're in now is truly the hardest. So that brings some relief. Um, but the things that stick out to me is when we do have kids in counseling, because it's just a good idea. Um, now, um, and then we recently saw inside out too. And for those who've seen it, you'll know. And then if you go see it, I highly recommend it, but they, they have little islands in the mind and come teenage years, teenage years. The friend island is ginormous and the family island is teeny tiny. And so wrapping your mind around that reality is tough because that is the transition of whether, no matter your personality, style and communication and all of that, it's the reality of you are taking a a little bit more of a backseat. You're still there. You're always going to be present, but you're not in the driver's seat by any means. And you're not even the passenger seat a lot of times. So, and the other thing for me just in, in very brief is that I'm coming to grips with the fact that this is just a sad season. And as a seven, Oh my gosh, like so painful, but I am trying to remind myself That it's okay. It's okay to be sad. It's okay to be mourning. It's okay to miss the old days. It's okay to also go, Oh, I looked forward to this, but it's not quite like what I thought it was going to be. Um, and, and so I'm, I have a seven, eight, three, as far as types. So all assertive and I, I'm just trying to navigate that. not controlling, knowing you need plenty of options and yet be taken care of. Success matters, not as much of the fun, you know, and just trying to do that dance that kind of, that's a good point row that I can do now and, and do between them. And then I'm really going to have to just like, let it go. I'm here to love you. I'm here to say, I'm sorry. And hopefully create a space that you want to come back to for holidays, right?

Beth: 1:10:11

Right, right. Yeah. Well, Angie.

Angie: 1:10:15

So I will say one of the things that surprised me the most about my that my kids encountered when they went to college. It was just something I'd not thought about was how when they, my oldest started making friends, and of course they sit around and talk about their families and what their home life was like, that my son would come back to me and say, I had it so good. And I had no idea. I mean, guys, it's awesome. And my youngest, who's now a freshman at UCF, same thing. He's getting the same thing. Now my middle daughter She does school online. So she hasn't quite had the experience I have like going out and meeting friends, but, um, and hearing that, but it's been awesome. And we were actually talking about this just the other night. And I, my, my oldest reminded me of that. And I said, well, it was father's day. So we were like going around the table, telling my husband how awesome he is. And he, my oldest reminded me of how grateful he is just that he grew up in our family, the way. He did. And I said, I just need you to know that one day you're going to know. It wasn't as perfect as you may think it was right now. And he's like, I don't understand that. And I said, you're going to have kids and then you're going to understand. Um, but it's almost like a pop me apologizing in advance. Like you're going to realize we did some things wrong one day. Um, but yeah, so that's encouraging for me, Ro, to hear you on that end of it. And I cannot even imagine. The dynamics of all of the different people coming into the family. And we were just navigating dating people outside of the family and what that's like. And man, it's just, it's a whole thing.

Ro: 1:12:00

It is a whole thing.

Beth: 1:12:03

But I would say the Enneagram just makes it, I don't know, easier is not the right word. It gives you a roadmap

Angie: 1:12:12

Yes, that's exactly it.

Beth: 1:12:14

When a son in law comes into the picture and if you're, if you're blessed enough to know their Enneagram type, if, if they're willing, it really gives you insights to see it through their eyes, to speak their language, to, uh, love and care and support them the way that they would resonate and understand it. And so that you do become that safe place that. Um, you know, I mean, maybe not all in laws would want to do this. I, I, as a nine can't imagine why not. Um, but I feel like that has been one of the greatest gifts for us with our son in law. Now he's a type nine. So it's like, Oh, you, um, But it's been really fun to encourage him to be himself, to, uh, name things that are in his life that maybe have never been named. Um, and just to kind of watch him grow and blossom, um, has been absolutely life giving. And, you know, and then with my daughter, you know, having in laws for her to know, Oh, this is their type and this is what's going on. And to be able to process that with more clarity versus like assuming they're doing it the right way. Because I would have done it such and such way. So now I'm all hurt, you know, and to give people the benefit of the doubt. So I think the Enneagram just, it, it's always giving, uh, time and time again. And so, you know, with the book Enneagram for Moms, you know, I know that it probably lands on people maybe, um, when they hear the word as, Oh, this is for younger moms. And I think like what we're all saying is no, it's not. This is a lifetime work. You're, you're always going to be a mom. Um, and to do your own work will be the blessing that you actually give your, your children. Any other questions you had for us, Jeff?

Jeff: 1:14:01

No, I think that's all

Beth: 1:14:03

great. Well, these

Jeff: 1:14:04

are awesome. Yeah.

Beth: 1:14:04

You guys are, thank you so much. It's been, I mean, knowing you guys for years, um, also watching your kiddos like grow and you guys grow as there's been such a delight. Um, such a gift for me. Um, and which is why I wanted to have you guys on. Cause I mean, I've just heard your stories, uh, know the different kind of ups and downs you've gone through. So thanks for coming on and just being vulnerable, um, with the type that you are, the Enneagram type that you are, the stage of life you're in, um, and what God is doing. So thank you for being with us today.

Amy: 1:14:34

Oh,

Ro: 1:14:34

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Beth: 1:14:36

Well, I hope that you guys really enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. I really enjoyed listening to all four of us talking about the different stages of life from the different Enneagram types and what we've learned along the way. Um, I hope it's been a real blessing for you. And in fact, if you're interested in learning how to use the Enneagram in parenthood, uh, definitely go pick up my new book, Enneagram for Moms, and you can get that at Enneagram for moms. com. And we've got some. You know, goodies there, free goodies, some downloads that you can get to help you as you navigate parenthood. And yes, I know it says Enneagram for Moms, but hey dads, not only can you learn about yourself, because the Enneagram does speak to any gender. But you'll also get to know some inside scoop on the moms, um, and how they're functioning, or maybe what they might need from you. So go ahead, grab the book, Enneagram for Moms, and then join us next week, because I'm going to start a whole new series that I think you're going to be really interested in. It's on the instinctual subtypes. So we'll see you then.