Jeff: 0:00

Well, hey friends, it's Jeff and Beth McCord. We're glad that you've joined us and we're so thankful that you've pre ordered the book. That's so awesome. Yeah, that's right. So, we know that you haven't gotten the copy of your book yet and that's okay. But, um, we wanted to give you a very special gift of a conversation, uh, between Beth and I and me really just interviewing Beth about the topic, uh, or answering the question, am I enough as a mom? And that question shows up in a lot of different ways for moms, for parents in general. Am I good enough parent? Um, uh, you can think of it as like the two, am I helpful enough? Um, do I know enough? There, it, it shows up in a wide variety of ways, but we wanted to talk about. Shame and guilt related to motherhood and what to do whenever we have these negative messages Well, the great thing about the Enneagram is that it helps us to understand that we have a unique interpretation or answer to that question That really is the gateway to us experiencing some the joy and forgiveness and freedom that we have in our relationship with Jesus so but how In your life, um, how did this idea of mom guilt or this question, am I a good enough mom? Uh, am I enough for my child? How did it show up in your life?

Beth: 1:15

So I would say for me as a type nine, the peaceful accommodator, it would show up. I would hear all of the advice from books, from teachers, from friends that, you know, were already moms ahead of me or older women. Um, Best practices and this is back in the day before all of the podcast and the blogs

Jeff: 1:37

our kids

Beth: 1:37

are in their 20s now But I was trying to live up to all of these standards and honestly to make These people that probably never even knew me happy

Jeff: 1:49

you you had a lot of real reasons in your mind Based on the people that you knew of why you weren't enough because you weren't like them,

Beth: 1:57

right? Yeah. And, you know, even like the things that my mom had passed down, you know, that, that she would either model or say was the right way of parenting. But then we had friends, you know, I remember like when we were at seminary, a mom in our building, she was very definitive on the right way to parent. And she loved to give me the advice on how to do that. And so I tried, you know, and

Jeff: 2:21

I do think she was,

Beth: 2:22

I was trying to think, um,

Jeff: 2:24

remember her feeling very one ish.

Beth: 2:26

Yeah. I could see. Yeah. I can see Barry one-ish, like two, try to do a little two. And because I

Jeff: 2:31

mean, she really was advice, helpful advice. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. She was, was very assertive. Mm-Hmm.

Beth: 2:35

Yeah. And there was a right way to do it. Probably like a social one. Yeah. With a lot of two in her. Um, and I was just like, just tell me what to do. Like, I don't know what's going on. You know? And especially as a nine, like. Cause you carried

Jeff: 2:47

yourself that way that you needed help.

Beth: 2:50

I carried myself in a way of like, yeah, share with me all of your wisdom. I will listen. I will accommodate. I will submit. And it just, I wasn't at a healthy place. I was very anxious. I was a young mom. I had Nate when I was 23 years old and Libby when I was 25 and I really just felt like I wasn't enough. And so I'm sure people pick that up and they were like, Oh, here, I'll help you. And I was like, sure, great. I'll follow you. But then I never felt like I could truly live up to whatever their standards or guidance was. And so I just walked around. Always anxious and always feeling like I wasn't enough.

Jeff: 3:28

Um, you had an experience I remember us having a conversation in st. Louis around that time because previously before we went to seminary you had read the book baby wise and You were not some follower of baby wise necessarily like it, but the, it created for you this expectation of what kind of parent to be, right? And that was very burdensome to you. Well, at

Beth: 3:56

first. It was comforting. So when you read it, you're like, Oh, this is the way to do it. Awesome. Yes. I will just do it that way. But life doesn't go that way. Right? Like your kids don't eat every three hours. You may be

Jeff: 4:14

able to fit into the paradigm. Your child may not.

Beth: 4:18

They may not want to. They may not. Maybe they can't. There's lots of things go on. And,

Jeff: 4:23

but that meant that was just another bit of evidence to say, you're not good enough as mom. Right. And it kept showing up. Uh, one of the things you'll, you share in the book as well as we've shared on our podcast is that, um, you made a super mom in your head. Comparison was a sign of your own shame as a mom.

Beth: 4:41

Yes. So when Nate and Libby were really little, I remember specifically being out with a lot of moms, young moms and seeing all of their great qualities. And not really even thinking they're putting their best foot forward. Like, no, this is how they are all the time and thinking that, but knowing how I am behind closed doors. So it's like, well, they're amazing. And I'm not. And I remember telling you, Oh, you know, uh, Jane is this way and Susan's this way. And, um, Natalie is this way. And you were like, Beth, you've literally created this big super mom. You've constructed. The super mom out of all the best characteristics of these moms, which is great, but that woman doesn't exist. And I was really taken aback, like, wait, what? But that's who we should be

Jeff: 5:38

the shirts.

Beth: 5:39

And but then I was like, wait, that is true. Like the, and then you were like, Beth behind closed doors, they're suffering too. They're going through the same thing that you're going through. They're lonely. They're stuck. They're afraid. Um, they're feeling shame. And I just, it was so hard to believe that because out on the playground, they looked amazing and happy and thriving. Um, but when you said that it just opened my eyes enough to, to have compassion for them and to be at the beginning stages of not comparing myself. And one of our counselors, she said, Beth, comparing. Only isolates you because either you're pushing the person up and exalting them, or you're pushing them down because you're over them. You're better than them. Either way, you're pushing people out of your life. And moms often journey motherhood alone, not because they want to, but because sometimes they're just isolated at home, but sometimes they don't even realize how they've been pushing people out of their life because in comparison, and Mb and all those things and that was definitely true for me.

Jeff: 6:45

So in our parenting, what ends up happening, uh, with unhealed wounds of our own shaming messages is that we end up reenacting that shame, uh, by aligning with certain principles or beliefs or systems, uh, even communities of people where They're going to help me to be who God wants me to be. But we never live up to it. And it just reinforces the shame that I am not enough. And there's this, uh, I shouldn't say great quote because it's really a sad quote. Um, but it does name. The dynamic is that trauma. That's not transformed, gets transmitted. We pass it on. Beth, how about for you, what were some, we would call it head trash, to bring levity to it, but what were some of the, the negative messages that you had as a type 9 mom?

Beth: 7:39

Yeah. So for me as a mom, of course, I think a lot of moms have the, I'm not good enough, but for me it was, see, my presence doesn't matter or they're not going to listen to me. No one respects me.

Jeff: 7:50

I remember you saying as a young mom. Uh, obey my words,

Beth: 7:55

respect me,

Jeff: 7:56

there

Beth: 7:56

was a

Jeff: 7:58

lot of term respect.

Beth: 8:01

And for a type nine parent, the reason is we feel like the world and even our own head trash is, I'm not that important. I don't really matter. But as a parent, you are the authority you quote unquote need to matter. And you want to instill that in your kids and you want them to respect what you're saying and follow along because it's best for them. But also when they disobey or, uh, it feels very disrespectful and it just. Um, validates and confirms that false belief.

Jeff: 8:36

How do you think, um, do you feel like you ever, well, I'm sure we all do it, um, but does anything come to mind for you of how you transmitted some of your negative messages about yourself, but coached in our children?

Beth: 8:52

Oh yeah, sure. Definitely. I think, you know, our kids probably don't speak as. Maybe assertively or as quickly as maybe other kids. No, they couldn't

Jeff: 9:05

I mean with a six and nine parents There was no hope for them

Beth: 9:10

Yeah, so like you're on

Jeff: 9:11

your own and finding your voice had they

Beth: 9:13

had they been raised in let's say a type three and a type eight home They would have been able to And, and, and, and, and, and so that's, that's something that I, I've been thinking about with the, with the two books that I've been And it's just, it's so interesting to think about like, be true about it could might be true about it. And I think that that, I think that that could be the sort of thing that out, out of context, Definitely. I think our kids, I mean, they're definitely more assertive than I am. Sure. But even in their type two. Does it ever make you

Jeff: 9:42

uncomfortable with their assertiveness?

Beth: 9:43

Oh, absolutely.

Jeff: 9:44

Totally uncomfortable with it.

Beth: 9:47

Absolutely. How

Jeff: 9:48

can you say that? But

Beth: 9:49

I'm also proud of them.

Jeff: 9:51

Oh, absolutely. It's

Beth: 9:52

like, for instance, like with Libby being a type two and her sometimes having very assertive boundaries, I'm like, wow, that's. not something I would do, but man, that's awesome. Like I'm so proud of her for like doing insane things and creating healthy boundaries and Nate for being, uh, courageous and definitive in his own beliefs. And, but yeah, it's very uncomfortable.

Jeff: 10:18

So for the rest of our time, why don't we do this? Why don't we walk through the nine types? You've had some experience with coaching, uh, various moms and a just, we'll just going to take one message that each type. wrestles with and what do they, what do they do about it? What does it look like when they're healthy? Um, what are they beginning to believe or manifest, um, in order to overcome that shame?

Beth: 10:41

Yeah. So for the type one moms, they're really going to feel that they're doing it wrong. And I mean, a lot of these things, people are gonna be like, well, that makes like, of course, you know, but.

Jeff: 10:51

Well, that's, and I would imagine that shows up. It's either the system's wrong. Other people are doing it wrong. I'm doing it wrong or my child right is doing it wrong.

Beth: 11:01

Yeah, someone's doing it wrong Something's wrong because there's a right way to do this and it's falling apart somewhere.

Jeff: 11:06

Yeah

Beth: 11:07

um And somebody's

Jeff: 11:09

bearing the burden of that guilt and shame,

Beth: 11:12

right? And so the inner critic Of course it Kind of depends on their instinctual subtype, but the inner critic is going to be very loud to improve what's going on. There are some circumstances in parenting that can't be improved immediately. Um, or maybe at all. You're not

Jeff: 11:31

going to be able to bring heaven down.

Beth: 11:33

Right. And so there's that constant feeling of guilt or shame of, but this should be like this and it's not. So I'm doing something wrong, um, or bad. And that can be very, very burdensome on everybody. So

Jeff: 11:51

I mean, even if you have a child who's being criticized. Constantly, it's going to bear the weight of it. But even the parent, if they're believing they're doing everything wrong, they're not living up to the system, but then the family experiences that shame. They all carry it together because they see one another suffering and it leads the messages of shame of I'm not good enough or I'm not doing it right. But what, what's the invitation for the one?

Beth: 12:19

Yes. The invitation though of the one is B to fully embrace. That life is imperfect, and that is part of the perfect beauty of living on this side of heaven, and that God has taken care of us. Everything is being renewed to its perfection, and they can rest in the imperfection of motherhood. And that's, I mean, even just saying it out loud, I'm like, oh, I can see how the Type 1 moms are like, yep, nope, not gonna do that. Because that's really hard to do. But I would invite the Type 1 moms. The next time they step outside and they look at nature as it is, not the groomed parts of nature that we, you know, we mow the lawns and all that stuff, but just, just nature. You'll look at it and it is perfectly imperfect. The leaves fell wherever they were to fall. Um, the trees fell, you know, like there's things that have died. But it's perfectly imperfect. And the ones know this. They love being in nature, and I hope that they can take a look at that and realize our family life is like that as well. The journey we have as Mo and as mothers is going to be perfectly imperfect. God created us to be our children's parents, and as we continue to grow and rely on him, he is working all things. for his good and for our good and his glory. So let's talk about type two. Okay. So type two. Um, okay. So the type twos are constantly afraid that they're going to be rejected if they need or ask for help. Moms need a lot of help. Motherhood is really hard. And so they, internally have a knowing that they have a need, but they're trying to ignore it and just really be strong and just get it done. Because if they ask for help, they're going to think they appear dispensable and incapable and therefore easily rejected. Well, and

Jeff: 14:30

Self as I selfish, as I understand it, with twos, so it ends up coming out sideways. Yes. So they're not directly asking for help, but they're complaining about how, how exhausted, how exhausted, how much responsibility they have, how hard it's no one is. It's a lot of self-pity,

Beth: 14:45

grateful. No one is thankful. Um, I never get a break, and so a lot of that. Is, uh, and we talk about, or at least I do about our Enneagram type, there being a rumble strip, like a rumble strip on the highway that alerts you, wakes you up like, Hey, when you hear yourself say this or feel this, that's your alert system to help. You know, that you're starting to veer off in an unhealthy pattern. Let's come back into a healthier way. So when. A type two mom is always talking about being exhausted or they're doing so much for others. That is their warning system that they actually need help and they need to ask for help. Now for everyone else, if, if a type two asked me for help, I'd be like, yeah, sure. Great. Thanks so much. But for them, that is super hard and it feels like great shame. So for the twos, I really. Encourage them to think about what would be rejuvenating or helpful for them in any given season of motherhood and taking the step to actually ask for help.

Jeff: 15:49

And it just reminds me of Jesus with, um, the last Passover with the disciples and saying to Peter, unless I wash your feet, uh, the twos have to answer that question. Am I going, you know, even Mark 10 for the son of man came. to serve, not to be served. And for the two, that's tough. What does it mean to be served by Jesus and serve others?

Beth: 16:10

They're usually what they're usually like is, Oh yeah, I'm going to be like Jesus. I'm going to serve. I'm

Jeff: 16:14

going to be like,

Beth: 16:15

no, no, no, no. The whole point is he serves you.

Jeff: 16:18

That's right. You

Beth: 16:18

know, we're the ones in need and we need him. And we need to receive from him.

Jeff: 16:26

No, I mean, threes are the perfect moms. They just, they just get it right. They

Beth: 16:31

achieve the best. They really are pretty, pretty awesome. Um, but yeah, so threes, there's, and for all these types, we could nuance even more things that they struggle with. But the one thing I heard the most from the threes is the fear of what other people are thinking when they or their children are being seen and not at their peak performance or at the highest level of image.

Jeff: 16:58

I remember a three mom talking about having put together the schedule for all the things of the weekend. And if that schedule gets broken up by dad or by the kids that they experienced some degree of frustration, maybe even shame of It's not working out and other people knowing that all of their perfectly made plans, it's not

Beth: 17:18

efficient or, you know, I knew exactly how to get from point a to point B for this weekend and y'all are messing it up. If you would just follow my plan, we would get there, you know, efficiently and productively and we'd accomplish a lot.

Jeff: 17:33

How does their shame come out sideways though?

Beth: 17:36

Well, what a lot of these moms said is they're constantly saying in some form or fashion, hurry up to everyone in the family, hurry up, let's go, hurry up. And you know, and that's, that is a manifestation that they're anxious, that they're burden

Jeff: 17:52

on everyone else to come through, that their

Beth: 17:53

goals, their plans, um, their, Desire for success, whatever success means in that moment, isn't going to be accomplished. If people don't hurry up, well, you know, it's kind of hard when you get a two year old that only moves so fast

Jeff: 18:06

or

Beth: 18:08

personalities that don't move really fast. And I'm, I'm one of them. The theme here

Jeff: 18:13

is going to be the, Children are an invitation from your loving Heavenly Father to deal with your shame.

Beth: 18:22

So

Jeff: 18:23

what's the hope? What's the new direction? What's the invitation for the three?

Beth: 18:26

Yeah. So for the three, it's really learning how to authentically connect with their family. In those moments, instead of hustling, directing, um, making it all about the accomplishments, get down on their level and truly connect with them. Be curious about what's going on, what's keeping them slowed up. Um, Maybe even what their kid wants to do, and they'll find that authentically connecting or being curious with their kids, they're going to actually have a deeper relationship, but more importantly, their kids are going to feel seen and love for simply being who they are, not what they do.

Jeff: 19:05

All righty. Type fours next.

Beth: 19:07

Type fours. Oh, the longing of the four. The fours have this beautiful, I mean, really it's the same thing as that superwoman that I pictured, but they have their own superwoman. This woman that. They're always longing to become, but they look at all the other moms and they're like, see, I'm lacking. There's something broken, something defective in me. No one understands me. Um, my family doesn't understand me. These women don't understand me. And so they feel very alone. And so the withdraw into their emotions and go deep within, but then they're really struggling with this sense of envy. I want to be. an ideal mom, but I'm not. And

Jeff: 19:50

how does it come out sideways? How does the family kind of bear the burden of their own shame?

Beth: 19:54

So usually the emotions, um, are vast. Now their emotions can be high and low, but when they get low, they usually withdraw and go internal or can be dramatic. It can kind of go either way. So it can be very moody. And the family doesn't really know what to do with those emotional highs and lows or the push and the pull, and therefore the mom feels misunderstood all the more

Jeff: 20:19

Mm-Hmm, And what's the invitation?

Beth: 20:22

The invitation is first and foremost, that God fully understands you and you were not designed with flaws or imperfections. He created you to be the type four mom that you are, and that the invitation is to live in the moment. In all of your glory and flaws, and that is who God wants you to be right now, trusting that he is helping you to grow in the likeness of Christ in the right timing that he has.

Jeff: 20:52

I know one of the things for fours is, uh, the, the theme of interjection where they internalize messages, uh, for themselves, right? And so I would imagine, you know, when circumstances aren't going well, rather than, interject, like interpreting it through the lens of your own shame for the four, realizing that no, it's just the, the beauty's in the messiness.

Beth: 21:15

Yeah. Well, and also we have a good friend who's a four and he would really have to capture his thoughts and renew his mind with affirmations, with scripture, whatever was actually true. He had to be diligent in that process.

Jeff: 21:31

And, and matter of fact, I mean, that was part of a, even projecting into the future, things that could potentially happen or conversations or incidences that he had to Yeah. They'll

Beth: 21:43

usually get into some sort of kind of fantasy in their mind of, Oh, I think they're saying this about me, or I think they're feeling this about me. And it feels absolutely real to them, but they really probably need to sit down and write out what these feelings and thoughts are that other people are having of them and really double check. Is this me saying this or is this actually what's happening? True.

Jeff: 22:07

All right. Type five.

Beth: 22:08

Type fives. Oh yeah. I had so much fun talking with type five moms. So for them, a lot of times their shame comes from, they just want to be left alone, uh, or they need space now. They feel very ambivalent about this because the moms that are fives love being moms, but they internally, they struggle with this feeling that they have only so much interactive reserves.

Jeff: 22:34

And a child's going to want all of it.

Beth: 22:35

All of it. They're intrusive. They're, they place a lot of obligations on you. They're always surprises happening. There's nothing predictable. It's loud. It's chaotic. Um, It's truly everything that can be hard for a type five parent, but I know one type five mom said, well, if I know I have the kids from, you know, this time to this time, and then, you know, someone's going to come and kind of take over and I can get a break, I can be a little bit more all in now, a lot of times they struggle with feeling disconnected. Um, they're just kind of getting the job done. But what, what's really hard is if that person doesn't come through and help, they don't have any more energy. It's like a, it's like a cell phone battery being at 3 percent and the person calling saying, Hey, I can't come and help take the kids. The parents like, I don't have anything left. And so a lot of shame can come up because it's like, I need to get away. But yet. They still want to be connected with their kids. So there's a lot of that that goes on.

Jeff: 23:37

What's the invitation for the five?

Beth: 23:40

The invitation for the five is that it is perfectly fine that you do need space and time alone. I know that a lot of times the fives are saying they feel guilty of how much space they need. And. They're going to have to be creative and how that comes about, especially differing on their economic status. So if they have money, they might be able to get babysitters or people to help take their kids, uh, do something fun while they take a reprieve, but not everybody has that luxury. So being really creative and how they take the time for themselves without it, Landing on their family as if they're a burden. They're too much. Um, they're causing them to feel this way. So it is a, it is a fine balance, but their needs are not a problem and it's good for them to get the help they need. Great. Type six. Type six is my mom's a six. Um, so. One of the biggest burdens they have is the constant vigilance of what could happen. And this could be safety. It could be their friendship, the kids friendships. I mean, it's just a constant barrage of all the things that could go wrong. Um, and so they feel a lot, a sense of guilt that either they aren't prepared enough or they didn't do what needed to be done to prevent. And so they can feel a lot of guilt and shame between those two things. And so how that can come out is just being very hypervigilant, asking lots of questions, um, double checking with a kid that they've thought through all the things and being one of those children, it's exhausting. And part of me was like, cause this is a type nine way of thinking is like, mom, I'm, I'm I'll worry about it if I need to worry about it. But right now it's not here and it may not come. So why would I want to worry about it now? But it's not going to even happen. And I think she just didn't know what to do with that. You know,

Jeff: 25:37

it's funny. There's a stoicism quote. That's really popular that I forget which. Guy said it, but it was, uh, don't suffer more than is needed. Meaning, all worry is, is pre suffering. Yes. And you don't even know what it, and it never, as a six pair, it never ends the way you think it's going to end. And when it does happen, you're actually way more prepared than you are.

Beth: 26:01

Well, and. You know that I live a lot in that sick space. I was trained very well.

Jeff: 26:07

You were trained. I mean better than me Now I

Beth: 26:10

do it for the nine purposes, right? So I'm being Worried and hyper vigilant of what could go wrong Relationally, like how can I make everyone happy? But I'm always thinking of the worst case scenarios to prevent that from happening so that we can have the best life together um But I was very well trained in the worst case scenario thinking mentality. Um, and so, you know, that can be something that the type six is really struggling with, but the invitation is. Well, why don't you say? Because you're a six. What's the invitation for a parent that's a six?

Jeff: 26:41

Oh, man. Well, see, you're the expert. So we're talking about moms here.

Beth: 26:45

I'm sure it's not that much different.

Jeff: 26:47

I don't know. I mean, what would be the invitation for me? But I would say one of the things that I have come to find is, um, in Psalm 32, there's this great passage. It says, I will, um, I will counsel you and lead you in the way you should go. And I, I will lead you, maybe that's what it is, with my loving eye on you. And what I came to recognize is that when, I don't know what I'm going to need, but whenever I need it,

Beth: 27:18

it's there,

Jeff: 27:18

it's, it's going to be there. And I can try to resource myself for all the scenarios that are going to come up in my child's life. And I bought a lot of parenting books. I read, that's how I identified the type 5 part of my heart, uh, that I, just relentlessly ordered, um, books about being a godly father, a godly husband. And it just put a lot of pressure, because I would try then to implement all this stuff, trying to be the best, versus just being a grounded, non anxious presence in my child's life. Yeah. Well, what else have you heard from other sixes?

Beth: 27:57

Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing for the six is, is to rest in the fact that you are going to be perfectly safe and secure in your heavenly father's hands. Like he knows exactly what's going on now. That doesn't mean we're safe, safe. Like, I mean, we live in this simple world. But ultimately we can rest in his care and he has God Almighty and, and he is there to protect us and our children. He loves us. He loves our children. And that's where we can put our rest and our comfort is in him.

Jeff: 28:33

All right. Type sevens.

Beth: 28:34

Type sevens. Um, so type sevens, oh man. I remember talking to a type seven mom about this and you know, type sevens love the next best thing. Like what are we going to do next? Like stimulation, excitement. And there's part of that when it comes to being a parent, especially before you become a parent. Oh, this is going to be so great. You know, and I'm so excited. And then it comes and you kind of realize, Oh wait, I'm kind of trapped because. I, I need to take care of my child. And there's, of course that I do want to take care of my child, but then there's the other part of them that's like, but I still want to have fun and be independent and, um, do what I want to do and be adventurous. But I'm kind of bound to this parent thing now. And so there's this real push and pull within them of how do I remain myself and fun and spontaneous while also kind of bound to this, this family life, this parent parenting, um, role that I'm in. And so that can cause a lot of shame because they're feeling like, well, I'm not a loving parent because I want to go and do things outside of being a mom. Um, And that's just not that, that I understand why they would feel that way, but that's okay. Like we can be both moms and our unique selves. We can both be at home and care for our kids and be creative of ways for the sevens to have their fun and their adventure. And it may look completely different than what it did before they had kids and what it will look like when they're empty nesters.

Jeff: 30:09

Do you ever, uh, Have you ever worked with a seven mom who like, they fear being trapped. And so if they're feeling trapped by their child, like, and then like, they just feel so ashamed that they want some kind of relief.

Beth: 30:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: 30:27

And what's the message for them?

Beth: 30:30

That you are a good mom. You are, you are loving your child with the best of what you have to offer. And the best is yet to come for you and for them. It can look a lot of different ways. And that's, what's so great about a seven is that they can reframe. But what I would suggest to them is to learn what it feels like to be content in the present moment. So when it's going

Jeff: 30:55

to be like in that situation of both, and like, I,

Beth: 30:57

exactly.

Jeff: 30:58

I want to be with my child and

Beth: 30:59

yes,

Jeff: 31:00

I, this is really tough and which you actually can bring to the relationship to say, I, If it's hard for me, imagine what it's like for my child,

Beth: 31:09

right? And so the, the savoring of the present moment in all of its aspects. So like you were saying, the feeling trapped the beauty of new life or the beauty of them growing. Maybe they're teenagers now, like what stage of life it is. There's the both end, you know, it's kind of like when you watched, uh, inside out, you know, joy is joy was always trying to get rid of sorrow and sadness, but it's the, it's. What is beautiful is when you embrace all of it. And so as a type seven, my invitation for them is to embrace it all, savor it as good and see the good that comes out of it. Cause so much growth comes out of challenges and sorrows.

Jeff: 31:53

Alrighty, type

Beth: 31:54

eights, type eights. You know, we were talking to a type eight, um, at a, at a dinner one time and then another type eight mom, her and her husband came up and they were so sweet. They were like, Oh, I love what you do. And I was like, Oh, that's great. And we just ended up all of us talking about motherhood and it was so good to hear from, from this new mom that I just met because she said motherhood was really hard at the beginning. Because. all of my adult life, I was in some, some form of control or I could figure it out, plow through life, no problem. And then this little child comes and it just threw her for a loop. She, you know, the infant is going to do what the infant's going to do. And you, and she just didn't know how to remain quote, quote, quote, unquote, in control when things would just go a certain way. And so she felt so much shame that she couldn't figure it out and make it work the way she did. She thought it should work. And this other type eight that we were having dinner with was hearing her talk this way. And she said, I have never talked to anyone about what I felt like as a, as a new mom. And that felt so validating to hear someone else say the exact same things that I experienced. When I was a new mom and it was just so cool to see them talk with each other and to hear the similar sorrows, the guilt, some of the shame they felt in those early years. And of course, there's, you know, when they get older, there's other things, you know, that we all deal with, but those were the things that they talked about specifically. And

Jeff: 33:25

what's the invitation.

Beth: 33:27

So the invitation for, you know, the type eight is it's okay to not always be in control and to be weak and to be vulnerable because he is in control. God knows exactly what's going on. He's not surprised. He's not thrown for a loop and he is stronger than we are and it's in our weakness that his grace is abundant and full and that we can lean on, uh, to him. And that's really hard for the type eight, but they're going to find so much renewal in the resting and the letting go, opening their hands in the process and trusting what God's going to do.

Jeff: 34:05

Well, you, you talked a little bit about your own story as a type nine. Um, but is there, do you want to add anything about nine moms?

Beth: 34:12

Yeah, you know, I would say, um, I think one of the things that I felt, I felt the most sorrow for was that type nines were looking for peace and stability and harmony. And it's not usually ever there in the family unit, as hard as we try. That was a

Jeff: 34:30

really bad burden because it, okay, let me talk personally now, now we're getting into our stuff. Um, You were always trying to calm me down

Beth: 34:40

and the kids

Jeff: 34:41

and, and the kids, I mean,

Beth: 34:43

to the point where I would put in earplugs because it was like, I knew that like you would be wrestling with the kids and having fun. And I'm like, this is so great mentally. I'm like, this is great. And my whole being is like, get them to stop. This isn't okay. And so I would put in earplugs to just numb out the noise enough, but I could still hear I could allow you guys to be fully you in a great way and not allow some of the internal struggles that I had to get in the way. And I felt very guilty for constantly feeling this need to make everyone be quiet.

Jeff: 35:24

Yeah. And what's the invitation?

Beth: 35:28

The invitation that beauty is in the chaos sometimes. Beauty is in the disagreements and the tension of life, the growing from it. I'm even saying that I'm like, no, it's

Jeff: 35:39

not. How am I saying this? That's funny.

Beth: 35:44

Um, but the other type We're like

Jeff: 35:45

hair club for men. We're not only the president, but we're also men. I'm

Beth: 35:50

like, no, this cannot be true. Um, but it is. I mean, you know, when you look back at so many things, You can see, wow, so much good and growth came out of that chaotic season or that hard season or that conflictual season. Um, and without it, I wouldn't be who I am today or they wouldn't be who they are today. And we had to grow through that. And as a nine, honestly, we want everyone to be happy and everyone's okay. There's no issues, there's no problems, but that's just not life. And that's not where growth comes from. And so, but even as I'm saying all this again, it's really hard. And, and, you know, to all the moms that are listening, and I've talked about your struggles and then I gave you, Hey, but just do this. Hey, it's super easy to say, and it's really hard. When it's you in that moment, and that's okay. Cause there's grace for all of us. It is not about being perfect. It's about being humble, dependent on God, and knowing that he is going to renew and strengthen and help us to grow into the likeness of Christ. In the mother, he created us to be.

Jeff: 37:03

Well, there's a great passage in Isaiah 50 and maybe you've heard us talk about it before, but, um, it says that let him who walks in the dark and has no light, trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God. But all of you who light flames for yourself and Flames ablaze. This is what you'll receive from my hand. You'll lie down in, uh, in torment. The idea there is that we're, we're stumbling around and we, we sense the insecurity of the moment, the confusion, the chaos, the uncertainty, and our temptation is to create other, behaviors, attitudes, approaches, um, patterns of thought to eliminate the tension, to eliminate the uncertainty. But that actually creates more uncertainty. It creates more torment. Even Paul says this in Colossians chapter two, where he says, these rules are destined to perish with use. The more that we give ourselves to our tactics, according to our types to deal with our shame, the more the shame keeps coming back. But the way that Jesus is presented to us in the New Testament is that he's the author and the perfecter of our faith He's the Alpha the Omega. He is the perfect Representation of who God is for us and so to get outside of ourselves to see what Jesus What do you have for me? What are your promises for me? Despite what I may be experiencing for myself Really is the solution Um, it's not to double down on our own efforts, but it's rather to reflect upon all that God is for us in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Well, this has been, I want to say it's been fun, uh, but I mean, I hope it's been helpful.

Beth: 38:47

Yeah. We're talking about a really hard topic. A

Jeff: 38:49

very hard topic. And like

Beth: 38:50

you said, we hope that this is really helpful, one, for you to recognize, oh, as a type. whatever you are. I have struggles that the other types from my type, they struggle too. I'm not alone in this. We don't want you to feel alone. Being a mom or a parent is super hard and challenging and that's okay. You are the mom, the parent that God wanted you to be for your children.

Jeff: 39:17

Hey, well, once again, just thank you for pre ordering the book and we hope you found this particular special podcast made just for you.

Beth: 39:25

Thanks, guys. Bye bye.