Beth: 0:00

Hey everyone. Welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm your Enneagram coach, Beth McCord, and today I am super honored to have my special guest because he doesn't need any introduction into the world of the Enneagram because it's Russ Hudson. Yes, the Russ Hudson who has been pioneering Enneagram work for over four decades. Ross, in fact, is the co author of five bestselling books, including the widely acclaimed The Wisdom of the Enneagram and Personality Types with Don Riso. Now, his latest work is an audiobook that you can find on Audible, which is called The Nine Gateways of Presence. And that's a lot of what we're going to talk about today, so I can't wait for you For you to hear that. And so I highly recommend checking out that work, but Don has also not only published work and done many teachings and trainings in his career, he has also developed the scientifically validated Rizzo and Hudson type indicator or the ready, and that is a great test to take to find your Enneagram type. Now, he's also appeared on many platforms like Good Morning America, uh, the CBS Morning Show, and he travels globally sharing the profound wisdom of the Enneagram. Now, for me, Russ has been such an impactful teacher in my life. He is one of the best teachers on the Enneagram. He is the best. It's easy to listen to, a joy, and he makes the complex enneagram actually understandable and actionable. So I hope that you will check out Russ Hudson's website, russhudson. com. He's also on Instagram as Hudson Russ, and you can find him also on YouTube. And on YouTube, it is, uh, Russ Hudson teachings. So check out his work. It is truly a blessing to learn from him. And in the show, I also talk about, uh, one of the courses that I, one of the many courses that I've taken from him called the Enneagram Awakenings. And I really do hope that you will also find that. So check out the show notes for all the places that you can find and learn from Russ Hudson. All right. So let's dive in to today's topic. interview with Russ. Ross, it is so great to have you with me today. Thank you so much for being on my podcast.

Russ: 2:18

you, Beth. It is a joy to be here.

Beth: 2:20

Yeah. So, um, I was telling you earlier that I started studying your work back in 2001 when I was 26 years old with two littles and ready to pull my hair out, first of all, because I didn't know myself. I was struggling also in our, Yeah, marriage because we were so young and your work truly helped me to find out why I think, feel and behave and to really start that process of growth and maturity that I'm still on, that we're all on. But your work and your work with Dawn has been so impactful for me. I would love just to kind of hear how your work has evolved over the years. And particularly, you know, kind of what the work you did with Dawn back in the early days, and then kind of where you are today. So can you kind of share with us kind of how it evolved over time at the beginning?

Russ: 3:15

Sure. You know, uh, well, when I first got interested in all this, I wasn't so much focused on personality. I started off back in the late seventies in the Gurdjieff work.

Beth: 3:30

Uh huh.

Russ: 3:30

And that was, uh, Mr. Gurdjieff was long dead. He died um, a woman that he put in charge of the work named Madame de Salzman was. I learned about that, but that work wasn't talking about nine types. There was the Enneagram, but the Enneagram was a way of coming to an experiential kind of spirituality. just add that people say all kind of weird, uninformed things about Mr. a Greek Orthodox He sang in choir and he died, Christian funeral. He was, you know, he was of the Greek Orthodox faith, the Greek family. Anyway, he was saying what attracted me to his work originally, he said, we do the work that we might be able to follow the commandments of Christ.

Beth: 4:24

Hmm.

Russ: 4:25

He said, the ego can't do it,

Beth: 4:27

Right.

Russ: 4:28

and we've got about 2, 000 years of evidence of that. So it's like, but the, the, this real spirituality is a transformation. It's a shift of our soul. It's a change of heart. And I knew that's what needed. And I was just a crazy young five who if he had any place in So when I encountered this, so much of what I thought was weird made sense. So I was learning that. Somewhere along the way, I encountered Oskari Chaza's take on typology in a book by a guy named Charles Tartt, which was the first publication of those ideas. And that was again in the early 80s. But then I encountered Don Riso's first book, Personality Types, in the mid to late 80s. And it just rang bells. It made so much sense. And I felt like that he had, he had written things beyond. Understanding what he had done, you know, which often happens So as it turned out, after I read that book, I, I decided Don. In those days, there was no internet, we didn't have cell phones, but there was a teeny tiny little, uh, sentence under his picture on the back Riso has a consulting company in New York City, uh, Enneagram personality types, Inc. And I said, well, I live in New York City, maybe I can find this guy. So I went into directory assistance back in those days to do that. And uh, sure enough, they had a number and I called the number, this deep baritone voice answers and it was him. And we started a conversation and we had to go through all kinds of rigmarole to actually meet. We met at the American Museum of Natural History for the first time. But it was started a long conversation. Don was, had been in a Jesuit seminary years, something like that. He was really wanting to be a Jesuit, but right before his ordination, came to the conclusion that that wasn't calling, that he had a profound faith, but he didn't think he was supposed to be a priest. It was very grateful for his Jesuit training. But he didn't really know the inner work of the Enneagram and frankly none of the did. So here I come in from left field and we started a conversation. The thing about the original orientation I learned is that the Enneagram is about presence. and being present. What does that mean? Well, you know, we don't know at first. It's a journey to discover. so when I speak with my friends who are in more traditional forms of faith tradition, they say, What is presence have to do with God? And I said, Well, whose presence do you suppose it is? There's only one, and it's not enough to think about it. It doesn't quite matter in the same way what I believe about it in my Experiencing and so the earliest Christians and this what we're really interested in this real communion of Being in communion with the divine presence. So How remarkable that we can even do that. So I got interested in this conversation with How does studying our personality help us And I believe that was the original way that the Enneagram points were understood. That that's what Chaza was drawing on the Desert Fathers and from other

Beth: 8:11

Yeah. So then, now you also did personality types as well. Was that the second edition that you did?

Russ: 8:19

Yes, Don was very courageous. You know, he knew I was this feisty little five. And he knew, he said, he says, he told me, he said, and he told audiences, He said, you know, I knew that your eyes upon my work would find every single mistake, find every shortcoming. And he says, and I knew they were there. He says, but I knew if my work was gonna stand the had to stand that scrutiny. And so he kind of handed personality types over to me and said, would you look it over and refine it and revise it? And so I did that and he said, he said he couldn't do it. He says, like operating on his own child,

Beth: 9:03

Right. Yeah. Totally.

Russ: 9:05

but very happy with what I did. And revised

Beth: 9:10

It is absolutely one of my favorite books of all time. I have that always nearby. The levels of development are truly so remarkable and impactful in our own health and recognition and to like to know where are we in any given moment because so often we're just due in life and we don't even realize like you said that we're not. Present in the moment. How would you love for people to utilize not just that book, but also another book that people really enjoy, which is the wisdom of the Enneagram. And then you've got even a new book out and maybe you can even speak to that.

Russ: 9:48

well, that the idea of the levels that was Don's big contribution. He did some other interesting things that. We worked on together for of sharpening and refining or rediscovering but the levels I think made it very explicit that the Enneagram is not a filing system for human map for our growth. a map for our psychological well being and it's a map for our spiritual growth. It's not meant to replace our faith orientation. It's be a It's like, you know where you want to go, here's a bicycle,

Beth: 10:32

Yeah, right.

Russ: 10:32

have a ride, you know, and, and go where you got to go, but it's a way, I think the core of the Enneagram teaching to see what in Gurdjieff's language we get identified with, what we get stuck in is not the total or what we are. So when people get caught up, oh I resonate with this type, I resonate with that type, that's okay if you understand. that you're seeing the pattern that you get stuck the real sense of soul of what we are, what we are in, the mystery life is, is mysterious. Can't be so easily defined their qualities, their gifts that come through their gifts of the spirit, right? All that is real. But you know, we walk around trapped with certain assumptions Now, we also think that there's some biology to that, we have what psychology calls a temperament. And so we're all born with a temperament, but our temperament, again, is not our identity. So the, this ancient and mystical ideas, the more you come close to the you are, the more you come close to the truth of who you are in God, Christ, if you're Christian. it's like, you know, it's a, there's a journey there. No one ever said it was easy or, or, you know, it's much safer to hide out in your personality and give lip service to this and that. But to actually open up inner journey is to be reborn, you know, it just, as we were taught. Um, the, and so when we wrote personality types, I mean, when Don did, he just wanted people to get a sense of the scale of each of the types from the healthy to the unhealthy wisdom of the Enneagram. We wrote, to make it really explicit that the Enneagram was about presence and about spiritual development. And it wasn't just to put people in a box. And and so that message has continued to come out. I think more and more people understand it that Uh, and then the last thing I did was an audio book were in current discussions to get it turned into a book. Uh, I did it with Sounds True, but it's available on Audible, but it's Enneagram, uh, the, the nine gateways to presence. How much more explicit can I make it?

Beth: 13:07

Yeah. right.

Russ: 13:08

it's a, it's looking at the traditional ideas like the passion and the virtues and so forth they mean and how we can really cultivate ourselves in this, uh, in this journey. And just to say too, it's again, one thing that we try to make clear in all these Don used to say it, The personality cannot fix the personality. We, you know, our ego cannot fix our ego. And so that's sometimes the criticism leveled at the as if that's what it is. And I suppose maybe some people are teaching it that way, but that's not the original

Beth: 13:47

Yeah. What I'd love to hear is, It's like what this has done for your own personal work as a Type 5 and you have developed that presence and how that has also transformed how you've lived and taught and the kind of the legacy that you're laying forth.

Russ: 14:07

Well, I'm assuming that, you know, people listening to us right now, maybe know something about the Enneagram. You know, the 0. 5, we're kind of loners. We're kind of detached, we kind of, you know, don't want to hang out with other people very much. We just want to have a lot of space for our thoughts because we're trying to figure out all sorts of questions that are very important to us, right? And, or solve creative problems, whatever. It leads to a kind of habit of emotional detachment. It isn't that we don't have feelings, we're just really certain we don't want to share them with you. And that's the fixated view of five. So. I got, as we all do, we all turn our Enneagram type into God. Our God looks a heck of a lot like our fixated

Beth: 15:04

Absolutely. Isn't all gods peaceful and kind and that's it?

Russ: 15:09

He's peaceful and mellow. And no, God is just wisdom and knowledge and consciousness. and you can go around. The twos have their view, the sevens have their view, whatever. But I started to see that something huge was missing my existence. And I was practicing meditation. I was doing prayer life is doing everything I supposed to do. But it came up against a wall. And what helped me with that wall was seeing the nature of the wall. If I couldn't see what it was that was blocking me, there was no way to get past it. And that's what I saw this detachment was just a leftover from my childhood. It's the way that with my temperament. I survived the difficulties of my early, early life, but it wasn't me. And I didn't want that on all the time as an adult. So my journey as a five has been to be more heartful, be more kind, contactful. to be lighter to have, you know, I've always had a sense of humor, but it kind of bubbles up more now. And, you know, sometimes this is the thing again, where people are have a limited understanding of the integrity. Say, Russ, are you sure you're a five? You seem very kind and heartful and everything. I said, Why? Why do you think I've studied it for, you know, whatever it is? You know, if I didn't learn anything, if I was still in the box of five, it would have been useless. So I still live alone. I

Beth: 16:38

Yeah.

Russ: 16:39

still have a lot of books. I still like my alone time. I still get learning certain joy. And I also learned to be a human being and to share my affection appreciation of other human beings. And to me, that was a big deal.

Beth: 16:58

Yeah. I love that. And I just, that wall piece, cause I feel like, you know, for me as a nine, that wall piece is right there. Right? Like I'm constantly wanting everyone to be happy. And what is it? How can I make you happy? And it's just this fixation of trying to keep the peace. And yet you can't, like you said, get to the other side. So what would you, what advice would you give, let's say, to me as a type nine into moving in a more healthy direction? Because I know I've got a lot of type nines that listen to my podcast and follow me, but really, honestly, for me, I would just love to hear your insight.

Russ: 17:36

Well, I always love to tell my dear nines that this world would be in deep kimchi if it weren't for the nines and the And when you think about what your contribution, peace, harmony, understanding, holding different points of view, how could we ever think that's not important these days? It's so important. And to do so in a beautiful and creative and invitational way that nines are so good at. Um, I think I, my advice for nines always is do not underestimate yourself. don't listen to people who underestimate you. Sometimes my Nine Friends get angry when people underestimate them. I sort of tempt them to, and then they do, and I get mad. Like,

Beth: 18:24

Well, and that's how, that's how Urnogram started is I did, I felt very overlooked in, in a certain sector. And I was just like, Nope, you don't. And I realized, and I told you this before, I realized, wait, I'm literally training people to overlook me because I overlook myself and, and I had to make that change. decision. Am I going to continue down that path that I'm familiar with and grew up learning from my family of origin? Or am I going to break that pattern and do something completely different and new? And that was really hard and really scary, but it's also been the greatest journey that I Could have imagined. And I'm still, I'm still, because you know, it's like I take, you know, a couple steps forward and I'm like, Oh, I just want to, you know, Nope, you don't see me here anymore. Um, but every time I take that step forward and assert myself, really amazing, joyful things happen. Is that what you find with nines?

Russ: 19:23

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like, I always tell people too, you know, the old rabbit hole isn't going anywhere. You can always jump back in, but you may find that it's kind of nice to be out of it. Um, You know, it's funny when you told me your your story about your discovery and kind of stepping up to know, my one of my good friends is Katie Hendricks, relationships and some work with her husband, Gay Hendricks, for many years. And I met them when they were first kind of getting going. Gay's kind of more out there, like a seven and Katie, who knows the Enneagram I've taught with her is is a nine. When I first met her, she was just totally in the background. But I was thinking Gay was talking and And he's great. But I was lady in the background. Who are you? Tell me something. And she was just, little, she had the same kind of realization as you. And she started stepping forward and, oh my, she's such a masterful so many people. It's, it's just, you know, everybody's got, I we're all in a, a bottle that's corked. And the cork is whatever we don't want to deal with.

Beth: 20:34

Yes.

Russ: 20:35

Those eights, you know, what's the cork? Vulnerability. That you might get hurt. Oh no, I don't want to go. I'm going to stay tough. Well, you can do that. Then you never get out of the bottle.

Beth: 20:45

Yeah.

Russ: 20:46

so you have to put out your energy and even be angry sometimes and step up. Oh my God, this is so scary. I don't know if I want to do it, but

Beth: 20:55

Yeah. Um, and so, let's just go real quickly through the rest of them, because I'm sure everyone's dying to hear theirs. So what's the cork of the one through the seven? Yeah.

Russ: 21:09

like to be kind of empty handed and not know what's supposed to happen invites wisdom. Which is what the ones are really after. One's want to be wise and do the right thing. But when you think you already know, you block the divine wisdom getting to you're jamming the signal to it's, it's realizing that your icky, nasty, gnarly feelings to not disqualify you from other human beings, and certainly not from God, like you, when you, you might feel envy, you might feel angry, you might feel bitterness, you might feel. Resentment, even hatred sometimes. very least, sometimes we hate ourselves, right? When you realize, when you stop editing your feelings to be sort of nice all the becomes soil through which spirit Three is um, gosh. Three it's, I don't have to have a handle on I don't have to, I don't have to be intact. I don't have to have it all together all the time. And the terror there is that I, I don't, or I won't, or that I'm the F word, a failure.

Beth: 22:35

Right. Yeah,

Russ: 22:37

I don't know what to do, I'm going to be a failure, but actually being okay with that sort of helps me join humanity and, and accomplish things with feel part of something bigger than me, which is what my heart really has as Yeah. Fours. like ordinariness, you know, like, and, and to just see, although I'm always trying to look at how I'm unique. And of course you are, this is a ways you're completely like other people and completely like members of your family. Oh, dear God, not that. In ways you're like your mother and father, oh no, you are, but until you could grasp the truth can't go further than your self concepts into your authentic identity, into the mystery You're too busy, you know, manipulating all that stuff. Uh, you know, always noticing with the force about how there's such a wish to be authentic, but how can I say the ego is not the authentic self. So no matter how much you. Try to make it unique or, or whatever. It's never going to be the total truth. And in your heart of hearts, you know, that is why it's never satisfying, know, so ordinary, you find the beauty and richness in the ordinariness, ordinariness of life, of you, of having your cup of tea or coffee in the just this seven's kind of like that too, but for a different reason. Uh, so five, uh, well, I already said that's me, you know, it's just, it's worth it. Allowing kind of like the eight, the eight is the vulnerability. It's, it's allowing the sense Detachment of five is kind of a breaking of contact. Contact is painful. I get in contact when I feel out there is suffering, pain, and craziness. I don't want to be in contact with we break contact, we break our connection with the part of us that can receive, that can really understand anything that can come to you. a knowledge of what life is really about, you And so it's in the restoration of contact, not just with other people, but with myself, the felt sense like, Oh my, it's sort of parallel with the nines and nines and fives can certainly understand each other's dilemma. It's a little bit different, but there are similarities. Yeah. And then, uh, six, it's, um, six is feel the need to keep. the mind going and keep activity going because they're kind of desperately trying to keep their world intact,

Beth: 25:35

Mhm.

Russ: 25:36

try to keep things safe for themselves, but also for their loved ones, their company, their, their community, their country, whatever, I've got to do all this. And what they have to learn is to relax that and allow the great silence,

Beth: 25:50

Mhm.

Russ: 25:51

the silence that passeth all understanding is where the knowledge of what to When we're trying to build Pre figure it out from our scaredy cat places. It tends to go off track, and so it's it's sort of it's it's very hard to understand, but it's through that silence we start to come into some real understanding of love, the kind of love that Jesus taught about

Beth: 26:21

Yeah.

Russ: 26:22

kind of love that he exhibited. I'll just share. As you know, I was in the hospital recently, and I was very close to death. And in my practice, I, I got to the very quiet place and I could feel death is kind of a portal that was right there just open to the unknown. I wasn't scared, you know, I have too many, I've been on this journey too long. I kind of know a little bit of how, what's what, and I know there's some things I cannot know. And faith is, to me, also being able to live with what you cannot know already. It isn't just you heard at some point. There's more to it than that. But there's, but the other thing was, it was through the silence and stillness. I felt presence of a love beyond anything I could ever describe. I can't even try. It's just like, it was the, everything in the universe was coming out of this love. All existence was only here because of this love. And I was only here because of this love. And it wasn't like coming from any one was like, everything was that. Like just love forever and ever on men, tenderness, kindness. Whenever I think of Jesus, I think of him as the embodiment I experienced. So, you know, that's, you know, I get a little tearful. I can't even think about it a little bit without being, you know, really moved by it. And

Beth: 28:00

that was just,

Russ: 28:01

there's me getting on the five.

Beth: 28:03

yeah. And that was just, what, a month ago or so? Yeah.

Russ: 28:08

still fresh

Beth: 28:09

Wow.

Russ: 28:10

uh, you know, I don't know, but I, shifting the way I. see the world. I mean, I still see people being stinkers and doing crazy stuff and doing things I would not choose to do. And I feel a kind of affection for them despite that.

Beth: 28:28

love that.

Russ: 28:28

Yeah. And it's not like it isn't like a decision I made. It just is happening. This grace that, way to other way to talk

Beth: 28:41

Well, and like you said, you just, it's an experience. It's a, like you literally were enveloped, it sounds like, with love and, and radiance.

Russ: 28:50

Absolutely. And just sort of melted into that. Well, sort of like saying, dude, you know, if you got, if when you go it's gonna be kind of like this, so don't worry,

Beth: 29:01

That, and I think that's what we're all like, like, we, we might cognitively know that, you know, especially in our belief system. But we're always looking to experience or feel it. And for you to have been so close and to literally be feeling that, I can imagine, and so you'd have to tell me, it releases so much fear of the unknown.

Russ: 29:23

absolutely. And we, we've talked about this around 0.6. It's like, yeah, I, cognitive cognitively knew it. I've heard the same spiritual rumors as everybody else. You know, I, I know what the, what the story is

Beth: 29:36

Yeah.

Russ: 29:37

and that helps me it's not the same as the experience. You know, it's a very know, it's, it's sort of like the old fashioned word conversion isn't just a change of what we believe, but it's like something touches us on such a deep level that we can't go back to

Beth: 29:59

And I think, you know, for a five who loves reading and words and knowledge to be, uh, without words says so much of the experience that you

Russ: 30:11

Yeah. Well, it's very, it's related to the holy idea of nine, you know, holy love, those, uh, scary terms, you know, love, hope, and faith.

Beth: 30:24

Yeah. Right. Right.

Russ: 30:27

Anyway, yeah, so we, I should do seven, right? Can't leave this. Sevens are going, what about us? What about us? seven, tolerating what we usually call boredom. boredom is a mask We just join ranks with the fives and the sixes. We're in that triad. And there it is. We have this terrible anxiety that we're going to be trapped. lose our freedom. We to get to what we need and you have to, there's comes a love for yourself and a kind of what I call holy stubbornness where you're, I'm just not willing to abandon myself And so the scared child part of me, I just stay present with that the court comes out of the bottle. It opens the gateway to everything I was looking for as a seven.

Beth: 31:31

Wow. I love

Russ: 31:32

We all have to pay our little price of

Beth: 31:34

Yes. Yeah. No one has a pass here. Um, and growth is hard, but it is really, really rich and, um, so good. Well, one of the things, and I told you this before we hopped on, uh, one of my favorite classes that I actually took from you online, of course, You didn't know I was there, but I was back in 2016, uh, was the Enneagram Awakenings. And I was actually just looking at the transcript again today and sent you kind of what I wanted to talk about that a lot of people when they read, you know, Wisdom of Enneagram and some of the other books that you, um, and Riso did was there's integration and disintegration, like going to stress and going to growth. But when I was listening to the, um, module seven in the Enneagram Awakenings, you literally opened up a whole new world that I hadn't heard because, you know, it wasn't in the books and it made so much sense. And since then, I have seen so many people freed in ways because they now have the knowledge and the understanding of the other two ways that we use the Enneagram, uh, lines and arrows. And so can you kind of walk us through, so you, you would talk about the, uh, stress point and then the security point and then the growth point and the missing piece. Can you kind of walk through that and then focus, uh, on the security point and the missing piece?

Russ: 32:54

Sure. Sure. Those are the parts that are usually not so well understood. You know, when, when Don Riso learned the Enneagram in the early, early seventies, through a Jesuit seminary. And, uh, at the time there was no model for vertical development There was he, the levels didn't exist and there was no discussion. In that early work, you know, I think people who had a more subtle understanding of it, you know, probably did know, but it wasn't in the materials that people were passing around in those So they made one direction growthful and one direction bad news, but that was not accurate. And that's not what was intended. And I used to have chats with Claudio Narvano. He was a friend and he agreed. He said, no, no, no, it was never meant to be that way. So what we understand is at whatever level we're at within our own type, sometimes we go to directions at the same level.

Beth: 34:03

Yes.

Russ: 34:04

So you don't suddenly jump to a high level of the other one or go down to the, it's kind of your, uh, levels are a measure of how present and awake we So if I, so I'm at that level of presence or that level of not presence. As we lose presence, we get more identified with the psychological patterns and defenses. So, when we go in the stress direction, I always think of that, which we used to call disintegration. We stopped calling it that because it implies it's something bad. When you overdo your type to the point that it's making you and everyone you know nauseous, You will tend to go in the stress direction. So, you know, like as a five, I can only contract so much and I break out and just do all kind of impulsive activity like a seven. As a nine, you just, I used to explain to the nines, it's like the old, uh, snooze alarm clock. So see, the nine keep hitting that snooze button until finally you realize you've got five minutes to get to work and now it's panic time and you're running around trying to handle everything. You're like a six. And so they're all pretty easy to understand that way. It's

Beth: 35:17

Mm hmm.

Russ: 35:18

bringing in something we actually need to do, but we only do it when we, when the usual way we handle things is, is run out of gas. Then we jumped to the other behavior. And so we kind of know we do that though. I don't think it's a shock to any five. We go to seven nines. No, they go to six fours. No, they go to two. And it's one way, by the way, you can verify You are the, the Enneagram point the, the inner lines work. If they don't work, don't get in all this elaborate try type and instincts and counter type to make up some strange spaghetti. If you are that type, the inner lines work.

Beth: 35:59

Right. Right.

Russ: 36:00

So the, uh, the, uh, other side other direction, which we called the direction of integration. Is also what we call the security point that tends to be more of a shadow. We don't like to admit to it. It doesn't our self concept. We have a kind of aversion to it even, but we do it. And so you kind of have to take a deep swallow and go, okay, yep, I do that and I don't like it, but I do it. And we only do this. We call it security point situations where I'm pretty sure I can get away with it without too many consequences. So with people who really love us, or with people who are employed by us, or our kids, people who can't give us too much static about it, that's, they're gonna get general public won't see it. So as a five, oh gee, I don't want, I'm, me a bully, dominating, controlling, aggressive. No, I'm a little five. I just like to be alone. are all those things. Nine, Oh, see me, see me. See how fabulous I am. Do you know how lucky you are to have me? You know, that narcissistic need like nines, no, no, I don't want to be a narcissist. Sometimes that human need pops out, you know, I want to be needy, but here I am acting like a two and so forth.

Beth: 37:29

and I love that because It is like when I, when you first were talking about it in that, um, module, it was so clear. I was like, you know, like you said, it's like, you just kind of want to hide because like, The very type that you do the security point with is a type that you kind of are annoyed when they do it. Like, it's really annoying. Like, for me, when I see a three showing off and bragging and like, aren't I great, I'm like, oh, please, you know, my nine, that's what my nine is saying. But then I will do that around the family. Like, hey guys, do you see what I did? Or, you know, and I was like, oh my goodness, that is so true. Why, why would it be beneficial for you? Each the types to know what their security point is and where is it most beneficial to have that awareness and what to do with it.

Russ: 38:18

it's, it's one of our main shadows. Another main shadow is what we call the blind spot of our instinctual biases. instinctual orientation that we neglect is another shadow. And they're just areas, it's sort of like, you know, we're moving toward being a whole soul, a vehicle that can be of service, to be able to participate in, to use the language of tradition, to be able to be a vehicle that can follow God's will.

Beth: 38:54

Hmm.

Russ: 38:55

And for that, we need to be more of a whole human being. To the degree that we're caught in these fixations, we're a partially We're not using all of our centers. We're not using all of our capacities. We're defended against certain parts of ourselves. So shadow work is the part where we're allowing the reclamation of a part of us that's been cut off. it's not, again, this is where it gets into the question of traditional religion. Again, it's, it's just like, I can't make that happen. I can be willing, I can be willing to be with my shadow. And then. The magic of grace does the rest, you know, it's like I can see The ways that i'm like an eight and not the pretty side of eight the the gnarly side of eight And oh, yeah, gosh, I do humiliating. But will I sit in the truth of it? Yes Yes, and then it becomes like a prayer like we're We're it's like 12 step. I'm asking that these defect these defects be removed from me. It's not so much the behavior as the blockage and then it's the blockage relaxes as we can own that energy. It starts the process of integration, which is we start to connect with the high side of it, and there's nobody who stays in the higher side of their own type without doing that

Beth: 40:24

Well, and so like for me as a type nine, so correct me if I'm wrong. So I feel like my presence doesn't matter. My voice doesn't matter. That's that running kind of head trash or record player in my mind. But I want to matter and I want to know that what I have to offer is important. And yet there's that blockage to do it with the everyday people out there.

Russ: 40:46

Yes.

Beth: 40:47

so I'll do it with my family like, Hey, look what I did, you know, and kind of like show off a little bit, um, out of fear of doing it with the, the regular public. But it sounds like the, the, the point of growth is when I say when I own that my presence matters, not that I have to Get that knowledge from other people, but that I say, no, my presence does matter. What I have to offer is important and I need to step out into that three ish space, the healthy three ish space and actually develop myself and move in that direction. Is that?

Russ: 41:18

Yes, exactly. And, and there is no such thing as a healthy nine that doesn't have some element of that three, that self confidence, that putting out my gifts, my taking my place in the world. You won't find a healthy three that hasn't cultivated some of that. There's one other traditional Gurdjieffian idea here. What, at the center of the enneagram is the circle and the triangle, right?

Beth: 41:43

Yep.

Russ: 41:43

You know, it's the idea that reality manifests through Trinity. And the way we look at that from inner work is that there's always a yes and a no around So your example is great. There's this part of me that wants to be important, wants to stand out, wants to take my place, and there's a part of me that thinks, no way, this is not safe, this isn't you try to banish that part, it just comes up stronger later and in an unconscious way. good guys trying to get rid of the bad guys, we've been doing that for a few thousand years, how's it going?

Beth: 42:20

Right.

Russ: 42:20

It's never gonna work. The inner secret here is the triadic and why Trinity was so important. They spent hundreds of years arguing about this at the dawn of Christianity. What is the right Trinity? Well, here we're looking at it just from the point of view of our, our development. I have to be able to drop back one into a deeper presence where I can hold the part of me that says, yes, I want to be important and step out. And no, that's not safe. That just gets you in trouble. And when the three, the presence holds the polarity, that triangle becomes a portal toward the circle and the circle of God. So it sort of opens the door to me taking one step further becoming whole and becoming So that's the way I think of it. And it's the same for me. There's a part of me that wants to. know, there is, there are no healthy fives. Healthy fives have a voice. They have empowerment. They're embodied. They're physical. They're not just a head, right? So, for that to happen, I have to also be in touch with the part of me that just thinks that's too scary and risky. Why would I want to be here in this crazy world? You know, I have to hold both parts. You can't leave the scared child

Beth: 43:48

Ah,

Russ: 43:48

You have to love that scared part of you And that doesn't happen by our ego, as I'm saying. It's, it's a, it's a, it's kind of miraculous

Beth: 43:59

Yeah. So, the security point for the, and we don't have to go through exactly, because, you know, they would need to, I would love for them to get that course, uh, Enneagram Awakenings, because you do such a great job kind of nuancing it all. But the one goes to seven in security point. Is that right? Right. Right.

Russ: 44:15

Yes, that's right. One goes to seven in security. So the, the ones want to run away to the circus and nobody jokes around better than ones when they're relaxed, when they think the coast is clear, they're very funny, they're very engaging, they'll try things and so forth. And ones have a lot of curiosity, but that one fixation clamps it all down. Well, you can't do that. Got to get serious again. But it's, it's when you sort of can understand that longing for freedom and the part of you that's trying to be safe and you can hold them, it opens to kind of freedom that isn't the acting out of it. It's, it's a more spiritually based sense of freedom that doesn't impede your desire to be good.

Beth: 44:59

Yeah.

Russ: 45:01

so it's like holding the contradiction. And the, we'll go ahead, yeah.

Beth: 45:06

was just going to say one of the things that I remember you saying, um, and it was probably a different class, but I mean, I was so profound. You had said that the resentment of the one is actually sorrow and grief for, uh, not having the childhood and the freedom that they long to have. Is that, am I saying that right?

Russ: 45:27

Well, yeah, it's about a number of things. It's, it's that, that's part of it, but it's also grief for, you know, when we, you could go again scripturally. It's, it's for the fall of Adam and Eve from Paradise that we, humans seem to have fallen away from our, our real place in the cosmic order, in the divine order. And so the ones can't forget that there is divine order to things and we ain't living it and it, they suffer it, but there's a, it's at the root of it is It's so sad for them. They can't bear it. And so anger is I, as I teach it is mobilizing rather than just being struck to the ground with grief. Anger gets me up and trying to do something about it, creates a kind of trap of a pattern, even though the motivation comes from something real That's true for all the

Beth: 46:25

Yeah. And then, 2 goes to 4 in security point.

Russ: 46:31

that's right. Two goes to four, and as I said, it's like two starts to see whether or not I like it. I have resentments. I have envy. I have jealousy. I have bitterness. Oh, no, no, no, not me. In public, I don't want, or if it feels risky, I don't want you to see that. I'm just loving kindness and goodness all the time, but when with certain friends where I feel really safe, I'll let you know how bitter, angry, hopeless. I feel sad. I feel and all those kind of messy feelings. The twos inner critic says, No, you can't have that. Loving people don't have that. But I have to be willing to see whether or not the inner critic likes it. I do have that when I have to be with the part of me that just wants to be with the truth of my heart. says that's not safe and somewhere in there and alchemy of magic occurs that starts to move me more real embodiment, real heartfulness. How can I really be with anybody in a real communion heart to heart kind of situation if I can't be honest with myself about what I'm feeling?

Beth: 47:41

Right. Right. Um, I just love that. And like I said, we could go around the whole circle and I'm sure everyone's dying for us too, but you gotta go get the course. Um, yeah. But then, so then there's the missing piece, which is the same direction as the stress point. Can you explain how that works too? Because I think that is such a powerful concept and so many people are unaware that this is actually a direction they not only can move, but it is something we want to

Russ: 48:13

Yeah. Well, it's very interesting. I used to say that. in the direction of security or integration, the shadow is in the lower side, the lower this direction of stress. The shadow is in the higher side, the healthy levels. It's like it's not shadow in the sense of being dark or bad, but I just don't see it. I can't own it. It doesn't make sense to me. not part of me. And so usually when we look at the stress direction, you look at the healthiest aspects of that, the essential, the spiritual gift of that point, We're cynical about it. That can't be true. You go and tell those fours that love is the, like I was just saying, love is the bottom line. Love is everything. Love is everywhere. You can't really be without it if enough. And the four, the suffering four goes, that's, that's nonsense. It's hallmark. That's, that's spiritual ridiculousness. I don't believe it for a second. Yet, if the four does some of that. shadow work with one and gets more grounded in themselves and starts to feel their own goodness and of the sensible wisdom of the universe. They've got a shot at it. And the same, you know, as a five is the seven, you know, everything is joy and freedom and happiness. That's you're on good drugs. That's my but I start to find out, I would say one of the biggest changes in my journey. When how I've changed. is that missing piece of seven has started to be real for me in that I kind of have a gratitude positivity regardless of whether things are going my way or not. When I was in that hospital and they told me I might not make it. didn't lose It was just there. It's just there all the time. And the missing pieces like that. It becomes like ingredient like a color, like in the background of your and doesn't go away, but it's it first. We can't see it. We can't get it because it's so contrary to our self concept to admit it is to begin to lose my self concept. So, in other words, yeah, if I, how can I be the dark cynical five if the seven is How can I, you know, and the nine is like, you know, I just want to be chill and relaxed and everything good, but that's only part of the picture. I'm also here to serve, to be part of things, and I got to get a little bit of that self love and that, beautiful three glorious, restoration, a sense of purpose and meaning. Then six becomes awake, vigilant attention to what's needed. Whatever is needed. I'm here for it. It's like good old Frodo and Lord of the Rings. What must I do?

Beth: 51:11

Yes. And what and for me, so I've, I've kind of envisioned, you know, my own journey as that nine of like, Oh, here, Jeff, you be the, the speaker, you know, you're a pastor. Everyone wants to hear from you. And then realizing. You know, I'm permitting people to overlook me. So am I going to show up and develop myself moving towards the three, but then comes the six, the missing piece, the high side of six, where I have the courage to step out and use my voice as a nine in a way that actually blesses people. So it's the, it's all three of those at their healthy spot. Now, not that I'm there all the time, but I can see more clearly like, oh yeah, It's such, not just a beautiful place to be, but it feels spectacular when I have stepped into those moments. Is that kind of how you would,

Russ: 51:59

Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and it's, it's being willing to just take the journey of life full on no hiding, no withdrawing. I'm here, baby.

Beth: 52:10

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Russ: 52:11

ready. Let's

Beth: 52:12

But like you said, there's, there's that younger part of my heart that's like, wait, that's kind of breaking the so and so to call rules. You know, we have to don't assert your voice, you know, um, and that's where the adult version of ourselves, that the healthy side is like, no, asserting yourself is the thing is the good that work that we need to do. And, but it's hard. Right. And

Russ: 52:35

No, it is. It's not. I always tell people the missing something you're going to get next week. I mean, sometimes we'll get like a little epiphany. We'll get a little aha, where clouds part for a moment and you see this It's like is revealing it to you, the universe revealing it to you. And, uh, then the clouds may close back up. But it takes a long period of dedicating oneself to the process of transformation where we're ready to take on deeper and more embodied versions of that missing piece. It takes time.

Beth: 53:12

which,

Russ: 53:13

you know, it's, it's again, if it was up to our poor little ego, it'd be hopeless,

Beth: 53:19

Which goes back all to what you were saying earlier, which is the whole idea of being present with oneself. Um, and can you tell us once more, um, as we kind of wrap up the, the new work that you've done and kind of the legacy or where you're hoping the Enneagram to move from here in the

Russ: 53:39

that's a really good question, Beth. Um, gosh, well, there's a few things. I mean, the Enneagram, the early days, I think all, but any of us, you know, me or Don or Richard or Ellen Palmer or any of the Claudio, any of us back in those days, we just want people to know about it. Right. And we wanted to get the message out. Well, you is out now. There's so many people know about it now, and God knows how many people are holding court about the Enneagram. And as it's disseminated, of course, it's a little bit like the game Post Office, you know, where somebody hears something and then they repeat by the time it gets around to like the 12th generation or something, it's lost some of its So one of the things I see happening is people beginning to take more of an interest in the in the core of it, like the conversation we're having, like, what's this really for? How does it really help us? Yeah, my cousin's a six. So what, you know, how does, how does knowing that going to help me? Uh, how is me knowing my own type going to help me? That's why we wrote Wisdom of the There's, I think there's a growing conversation. People have been playing with this long enough that they're starting to see the limitations of some approaches and that there is. A lifeline that's being tossed to us here if we take it, if we take it as And, you know, So growing groups of people dedicated to the inner to holding it, to being able to talk about it in different communities, you know, sometimes days we're talking to a church group and the next day, maybe we're talking to some executives in a, you know, in a boardroom. And hopefully we have enough flexibility in ourself to meet the needs of both of those populations in a way that's honest and real and really helpful for

Beth: 55:39

And have you, have you seen a big shift from the 80s, 90s, so to speak, that generation and this younger generation and their willingness to go inward or to think or, or is it that they're just doing it to themselves? What, what is your observation?

Russ: 55:56

Well, that's interesting. Well, I think in the early days, there was a little more emphasis on it as something negative. If you, if you really look at, there was no talk about the spiritual side of the gifts or anything. You go back and read Claudio's early work or you hear, you know, the way it was taught in by Helen Palmer, Don Riso was saying, unless you get your act together, you're going down those levels. It was all kind of a little scary, you know, how it was originally brought. That's I came in a little bit from left field. Like I said, I didn't learn it from those lineages. I learned it from And my whole idea was if it wasn't about presence and us learn to live a more conscious life, I didn't see the And I think it's kind of a more of a mix. Now there are a lot of people who still using it know, oh, I so resonate with the four and oh dear, you're such a two and just talking about it and Sort of, it's inevitable. You know, you go through what I call Enneagram adolescence. You get this new toy and it's so interesting. You've got to like type everybody in your world and you do that for a while. And hopefully at recognize, ah, there's a little more to this than that. That's fun, but let's, there's a richer game here. And, and then there are people, what is encouraging is there's a growing number of know Point the way for them. You know, I'm not, when I first got into all this, I've told this story before. Uh, I was looking for this work. I mean, Gurdjieff work is hidden. It's secret, the real Gurdjieff. It's not public. And I was directed to it by a guitar player who was one of my heroes named Robert who had the band King Crimson and he played with David Bowie, did the song heroes and did this anyway, he was, he had been in the Gurdjieff work and he, one of the things he said to me, I never forgot. He said, the age of the guru is over. It is the time for older brothers and sisters to help the younger brothers and sisters. Together we will pull each other up by our own bootstraps and we'll climb the mountain together. And I thought, man, that is so true in my experience. So that's what I see in the Enneagram community. We have people been at it longer, who've learned the nuances of it offer help. support and we can just be amused at the cuteness of the newcomers. We're just totally hung up on typing everybody in the world and argue about the type of famous people and all that stuff that we do. Uh, but there, there's another step. So that's a big development in my point of view. The other one is just, I think people are finding more intelligent ways to apply in business, in religious communities, in coaching, that it isn't just a question of. describing the type and somebody finding out through that type. That's a good starting point. But I think there's more intelligence and nuance about how this knowledge can people in their endeavors in

Beth: 59:11

Uh.

Russ: 59:11

material or spiritual.

Beth: 59:13

Yeah. That is so good. Well, what, what are some ways that people can learn from you, whether it's books, classes, events, where are you at and where are you going in the future?

Russ: 59:27

there's a few things. I mean, you know, the books that I did with Don Riso are pretty readily available. You bookstore, Barnes and Noble. You can get them through Amazon, Riso and Hudson. You don't have to look too far. If you Google me, you'll find me, uh, but I think, uh, I'm doing these days, I have my own website, RussHudson. com, just my name, dot com. And I do things like I do a, a monthly, uh, practice, a kind of prayer meditation practice that people can do. It's free when people sign up for the website. So we, we try to put things out. I do workshops and things through the website. I do collaborations Uh, and I've got a few of those planned that will be probably live some live events, some online events. Uh, I have that audio book, uh, the Enneagram nine gateways to presence, which is more about the things we've talked about in this conversation. And that's, it sounds true. And it's also on audible. And I, I'm also working on a book. On how the Enneagram can help us with creativity. I'm working on that with my, my, uh, dear friend, Catherine Bell. she's up in Canada. And, uh, we get together and work on writing it. But our aim is not like, here's, here's a point nine's creativity. Here's a point five's creativity. It's more like, what does nine teach us about creativity? What are, how does it help us? hinder us? How does one help us? How does it hinder us? So it's a book really about. Opening up the channels of creativity. So we're excited about that one. And, you know, we'll, we'll see what the future brings,

Beth: 1:01:13

Oh, so exciting. Because like I said, you know, earlier, you literally are probably my favorite teacher to listen to. Um, I, I just feel like the way that you explain things and nuance things and bring this complexity of the Enneagram into a place that the everyday person can listen and understand and then apply it pretty quickly into their own life. So I just want to just really want to, again, say thank you so much for. All the work you've done over all the four decades that you've been using the Enneagram and just, you know, keeping at it, even when I know that there's so many people out there that, you know, know it and they're not using it correctly, but I find you being so gracious and kind to continue to help people to understand the real work of the Enneagram. And so I just want to for that. Thank you for that. And I hope and pray that you will continue to heal and get better every single day. I know that, you know, what you went through the last month was super scary, but also it sounds like pretty amazing and the new trajectory you're on. So I just, I pray that you have the time and the space to heal. Um, but again, thank you so much for all that you've done for us.

Russ: 1:02:21

Thank you so much for having me, Beth. This was really fun and may our conversations continue.

Beth: 1:02:27

Yeah, exactly. Well, I hope that you guys enjoyed that conversation with Russ Hudson as much as I did. I could have gone on and on and learned from him in so many ways, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. So I hope that you will go to russhudson. com and learn from him to find his work, his material, his teachings there, as well as on Instagram as Hudson underscore Russ. And on YouTube, uh, Russ Hudson teachings. There are so many things that you can learn from him on free for free on YouTube. Well, as always, the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder because it's the gospel that transforms us.