Introduction and Welcome

Jeff 1:11

Hey everyone. Well, welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. That's right. I am Jeff McCord, not the beloved and renowned Beth McCord, the Enneagram coach.

Meet the Hosts: Jeff and Adam

Jeff 1:24

But Hey, joining me today in this conversation about subtypes is our director of coaching, Adam Breckenridge. Hey Migo, how's it going?

Adam 1:34

Hey, Jeff. I'm excited to be here with you and hang out with our listeners. And uh, to those of you tuning in, our mission is to help you see yourselves with astonishing clarity so you can break free condemnation, fear, and shame. By knowing and experiencing love, in Christ. And Jeff, I want to remind you love this content, turn on the automatic downloads, like, and subscribe. What is it that my kids say? Smash that subscribe button.

Jeff 2:07

That was a awkward smash.

Adam 2:09

but you should, you should subscribe to our YouTube channel if you love this content. And also share this with someone who would enjoy. Or benefit from this content. But yeah, Jeff, it's great to be here with you today.

Beth's Sabbatical

Jeff 2:22

So, we're recording this a little before some things have changed, but this that we do, um, where Beth is actually on sabbatical. Uh, and so you're going to be, uh, you guys are going to be listening to El Mocordo and The Jackal. Um, leading you all through these podcasts and through all this Enneagram content. So hopefully you guys will stay around. We do know what we're talking about. Sometimes we don't look like it, but I promise you, we really do

Adam 2:56

they don't know the El Mocordo and the Jack and the Jackal backstory, but the El Mocordo was your, is a, is a, is have done our parts uh, parts work. El Mocordo is a part of you, right?

Jeff 3:09

Yeah. And, and I would describe him as the seven, my uh, it, in recovery world, it's the inner teenager. It's the, the funny, spontaneous, provocative, uh, part of my, As we've come to, I don't know if people know about it or not, but one time in a podcast, I used your term of my sexiness, but I said sexiness out very awkward. That was El Mocordo.

Adam 3:38

That was El Micordo, yeah, and, and, and, um, and so in, in the Enneagram internal profile, we think about our, uh, our, uh, paths as parts of us, my Enneagram seven uh, that part of my heart is, uh, the jester. Called it the jester for years, but you accidentally in a team meeting, a YC team meeting one time referred to that part of me as the jackal and it has, it's stuck. So we are, our duo is now El McCord, El McCordo and the

Jeff 4:11

Yeah. El Mocordo came about. So part of it. Yeah, I mean, you can hear kind of the play on the word because I am of Mexican origin, but I was adopted into a very wide Scottish family and, but as a pastor, I would sometimes be Mr provocative and be the life of the party. And so, um. The young men in our community, church community, would call me El McCordo, or, I'd say crazy things, uh, while preaching, and they'd say, that'll tweet. Uh, so instead of an amen, you'd hear from the audience,

Adam 4:51

Love that.

Jeff 4:54

But hey, uh, Adam and I are here, um, because we want to help people.

Understanding Enneagram Subtypes

Jeff 4:59

Talk about and why subtypes just as a category of the Enneagram is so important So we're going to spend some time over the next three of this episode in the next two episodes about what are the subtypes? Why they're important the relevancy is to understanding it as it relates to the Enneagram The the great thing about this Topic of subtypes is that actually it answers a lot of questions that we have about the Enneagram Because it makes things more specific. So why why is it important to even talk about it? Well, first of all, it explains why there could be so much of a difference between people of the same Enneagram Here at why you see Beth has coined the phrase like Types are like, uh, Sherwin Williams paint colors, um, you know, you go in looking for a blue and there's a thousand blues and you can get the blue from every other color on the color wheel, right? And so it helps us explain the particulars of an Enneagram type. So, you know, this idea of putting people into a box and stereotyping, this actually speaks to why that's actually not the case in that, uh, two Enneagram types can look radically

The Importance of Instincts

Jeff 6:15

different. Uh, I think secondly, sometimes focus on something called instincts. Adam's going are. But instincts are why your personality style, your relational style, comes online. So, instincts are actually, more primitive or happened first before your type and all of its strategies and all of its patterns before all of that comes So another reason why it's is that this idea of subtypes actually Uh, provide some additional clarity as to why we do think and once we identify what our instinctual subtypes we're getting, we're going to define that, but, um, we're able to do a lot of each of the following. Number one, we can name what our primary motivator is. So why we are activated. Or, you know, the popular term is triggered. I don't want to use that too broadly because it, it's not a trauma response, but it's sort of the instigator, the energy that gets Number two, we begin to address the other instincts that we fail to acknowledge. So there are other parts of us. There's other ways of seeing and interpreting the world that we actually might be blind to. Uh, and then thirdly, we can identify patterns in our thinking and behaving. So what are the things I get fixated on whenever, particularly as a 6. What are the particular things that I get anxious about, versus other sixes, And then lastly, here's what, here's where it really gets super helpful, is that as I'm beginning to name these things happening inside of I can begin to see it. In the lives of others. So knowing that Beth is a one to one, a subtype of a nine changes how I think about Beth's nineness and how it shows up in our marriage, how it shows up in parenting, how it shows up in leadership and leading a business together. Um, it Adams a six. And so you would think there's going to be a lot of similarities between Adam and I, and we have a very dear friendship and connected very quickly. But we're very different and so we're going to be able to, we understand more why and where that comes So, uh, why don't we begin with defining what instincts and subtypes are. So Adam, why don't you take it from here and help clarify for everyone what these two

Adam 8:48

Sure thing. Yeah. So, um, subtypes are based on, as you said, Jeff, three different human instincts. And these are basic human instincts for survival. You use that term, they're, they're primitive.

Self-Preservation Instinct

Adam 9:02

and so the first instinct is self preservation. This is how do I keep myself alive? Uh, so someone with a, who leans toward a self preservation instinct walk, is going to walk into a room and, and, and stereotypically say, you know, where's the exit or they're thinking, do we have enough food or are there too many people in this room or are we breaking the fire code? I mean, they're, they're thinking about, am I safe, right?

Jeff 9:27

funny. Our daughter, uh, is always asking, what are we, what are we going to eat? And it's so funny, like she's never been without a meal, but for some reason that comes online for her. Uh, I noticed at times whenever, uh, my anxiety shows up around money and. and business and all those different things. So that there's, there's an instinct that comes out of it. Now, coupled with our stories, like don't forget, there's multiple layers to but you know, if you I mean, we all come from money basic needs that we have. And but for those that are self press, It comes online and then that's when you're the strategies of your type come

Adam 10:13

That's right. That's right. And that instinct is really just helping us to take care of our safety, health, well being, make sure that we have all the resources that we need to sustain life. So, again, the self preservation instinct is how do I keep myself alive? Um.

Social Instinct

Adam 10:31

The second instinct is the social instinct. And this is, I need my people to survive. Those with the social instinct have more of a herd mentality, so they're going to walk into a room and say, Where are my people? Where's my tribe? In this room, um, and they're going to, they're going to gravitate toward their people so that social instinct helps us to be aware of other people, both in intimate situations and in a group and how our actions and attitudes affect those around us. So, again, to put it just just to reduce it, not to be too reductionistic, but if you're going to reduce it, the self preservation instinct is. Um, I'm, I'm kind of thinking about myself. I'm like, not necessarily in an unhealthy way, but sometimes, but I'm, I'm worried about keeping myself alive. The social instinct is how am I impacting the group? What's best for the Um, and so that's the social instinct.

One-to-One Instinct

Adam 11:24

The third instinct is, uh, what we call the one to one or some call it the sexual instinct, and so those with the one to one instinct are going to walk into a room and say, who's the most interesting person or who do I feel the strongest connection And the one to one instinct helps us to have an intense drive for intimacy and for this constant awareness of the chemistry between ourselves and others. Those with the one to one instinct are going to notice like, not, not with everybody, you know, they're, it's not like the social where they're thinking about the larger group, but they're going to notice a chemistry and sort of an intensity between, you know, themselves and a select group. One or two or three, a select, select group of people, usually just a small handful or maybe one person. And they're really energized by deep one on one relationships. So you were talking about Beth being a one to one nine. So I would imagine that most of her intense drive for deep connection, um, is aimed at you. I'm sure you feel

Jeff 12:29

when you think of the characteristics of a nine in their relational style, it predominantly is sort of fixed or attuned to me. Um, so accommodating, it's where's Jeff at on where we're at right now. What, what's he feeling?

Adam 12:46

What's he thinking? Yeah,

Jeff 12:48

So she's very attuned to that over all other relationships. Now, if she's with another person, she's going to get, she's going to focus on that person, but it's, it's a very focused attention versus like what might be a social nine where they're trying to blend in

Adam 13:08

that's

Jeff 13:08

trying to, they're much more mindful of what the culture, the tone, the experience of the group that

Adam 13:17

Yeah, that's

Jeff 13:17

the one to one. Um, and it, and the other thing too, I mean, the thing about Beth and I, uh, in our marriage, I mean, I, I'll be honest with you, we, I, we really do have a great marriage and it is, you know, it's like a, I, I sometimes in my, uh, counseling will, um, Talk about an EKG. A lot of marriages are looking for the steady Eddie line, but you know, in order to have a good EKG, it's got to go up and down. And so Beth have Beth and I have all of those dynamics and we stay alive to one another emotionally. Because we experience all of those, but we're both one to one. And so there is a level of intensity that we bring towards one another and checking in with one another that, that, to be honest with you at times, looks a little like enmeshment. Some might call it enmeshment. I don't call it enmeshment. maybe anxious attachment. Some might say, uh,

Adam 14:18

right. We, we call it us.

Jeff 14:27

So I, I

Adam 14:27

I love that.

Jeff 14:28

a one to do notice, certainly these things or we access ways. So I'm not even sure at times if it's stacking or accessing, but self prez is the I try to solve life's problems while I'm sleeping at night. Like, I don't know if this ever happens for you, Adam, but I just find myself thinking about money. And future like half asleep and I'm thinking like I'm making progress on this crazy how this anxiety shows up sideways and now the one social does show up for me, but oftentimes. I respond to that inclination that instinct with So I'm, that's where I test loyalties. So I'm not a six who wants to play by the rules to find safety, security, confidence, uh, with a group of people. But El Mocordo comes online and he starts testing. How are you going to accept And where I can say provocative things or do provocative things. So all three show up, but they show up in different settings. And you know, the one to one certainly others. What about you?

Adam 15:53

We are so similar. Um, well, you bring up a good point. First, I just want to say we do use all three of these. Um, so I'm glad you brought that up because sometimes people are like, well, which, which one of these do I use? And the answer is yes. Um, you, you, you use all three of these. Typically one of, one of the instincts is more dominant and it, it highly influences our personality type. The second instinct we use less often. And the third one is we, we, you know, most of the time we consider it, it's repressed, sometimes it's a, it's like a blind spot. And so, um, but we do use, we do use all three. And, um, and so you asked what about me? Um, it's interesting. I don't know. I think, you know, I think it's possible for your instincts to, to flip flop. And so, you know, you've heard people use different theories of like first half of life, you may notice that this wing is more dominant in the second half of life. You may notice this wing. I think I noticed that with my instincts. I think. Um, I'm a six like you and I think early on in life, I was much more of a one to one six. I dealt with my fear and we'll talk about a six of subtypes in our next episode, but I dealt with my fear by pressing into it by trying to get bigger than the and it, it, it, it, it. manifested like bravado, but more than bravado, it manifested like I'm going to climb this really tall structure because I'm scared. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, yeah, I'm going to do something dangerous like car surf, which kids, I do not recommend. Um, you know, but it, it,

Jeff 17:30

You said that publicly, you have three daughters and now they know that their dad car

Adam 17:36

I did car surf. Uh,

Jeff 17:38

Beth doesn't let me talk about my childhood.

Adam 17:41

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. I probably need to be a little more careful. Um, so, uh, and especially with my youngest because she's like a, she's a clone of me. So I'm, I'm talk about having some fear. As a six. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I think, I think now this part, this stage of my life, Jeff, honestly, I think I noticed more of the self preservation instinct. It's more of like, no, you know, do we have the financial resources we need? You know, things are getting more expensive. I have kids. They're looking at college. They're going to be driving cars soon. I'm thinking about like, Do we have what we need? Do I have what I need? Um, you know, sometimes there's a scarcity mindset. It, you know, it's really about that, that self preservation instinct of survival. And, um, I think probably one to one. would be my second. And I think social may stack as my third. Um, it's interesting that you say rule breaker, because that's what my wife, anybody that knows me well as always said, Adam, there's two, two contradictory things about Adam. Adam does not want to get into trouble, but Adam, but, but Adam does not like to play by the rules.

Jeff 18:56

You know,

Adam 18:56

though, and those two, those, those two things don't work well together.

Jeff 19:00

They don't. And, and maybe we should just spend this particular episode and, you know, expand this over four episodes because one of the things that Adam and I have experience in is, uh, coaching around emotions. Uh, there's an excellent volume out there that if you've never read it, you should read it because it's approachable, practical, um, way of how to And so when I think about each of these instincts, I'll be honest with you, the topic of shame quickly comes up for me because one, there's a level of shame that I have about. how my sixness shows up in my one to one relationship with Beth. And that's happened in all my romantic relationships of memories of shame when that desire or instinct comes online. I'm scared of it. I'm ashamed of it. And because I've done some things related to that instinct that I'm very deeply that now kind of inner critic, it's always there in my Uh, and I think secondly is, uh, the social stuff. I have been socially inappropriate. Shame comes online, but I come into whether it be a business meeting. Um, matter of fact, I was doing some internal work on naming various parts and there were three kind of avatars in my mind that my inner critic uses to compare and it was all based around shame. I'm not like them. That's social instinct. It's group stuff. Am I like my neighbors? Am I like other people? Entrepreneurs, am I like other pastors? And I've got an image and I've created heroes, but that in that social instinct comes online, even the self preservation stuff, I never feel enough.

Emotions and Instincts

Jeff 21:03

So I'm curious, Adam, I mean, when you think about tying now emotions to instincts, what comes to mind for

Adam 21:12

Uh, yeah, well, I think the shame connections absolutely there for me. Um, and, and, and, yeah, it's, it shows up the same way. Self preservation is a thought of, am I enough? um, can I provide? Can I be enough? You know, can I pull this off? Am I going to be able to pull this off? Am I going to be able to get my kids grown and married off and sent off without, you know, um, scarring them too deeply or failing them too badly? I mean, it's just, it's

Jeff 21:42

Oh, Hey, Adam, just to let you know, like, yeah, I promise you, you will having to 20s. Something year olds now. Yeah. Yes. All of that's true. And it'll be okay.

Adam 21:53

That's right, that's right. I try to tell my kids something that a mentor said to me years ago is that, uh, I, I try this tactic with them and it, I'll, I'll be honest, it's somewhat self-protection for, for my, for me, it's, it's, I'm trying to give them a gift. I'm also trying to protect myself, just to be totally honest. But I'll say to them regularly, one of these days, you're gonna end up on somebody's couch or on a zoom somebody, a pastor, a friend. Somebody and, and you're going to talk about the ways that I failed you or hurt you as a dad. And I just want you to know that when that day you are not dishonoring me. If you're telling the truth.

Jeff 22:35

I thought you were going to land a joke, but I have told my kids the exact same thing.

Adam 22:40

yeah, I probably should land a joke just a lot, just to, uh, lighten the mood,

Jeff 22:45

Dang Adam, you went, you went deep there. I mean, I was talking about shame broadly, not specifically.

Adam 22:50

I'm getting, yeah, yeah, yeah. Be careful what you ask for. So, but yeah, the, the shame piece is there. The, the, the emotion of fear is there. And sometimes I noticed the emotion of mean, sometimes. You know, anxiety is very isolating. And so sometimes I carry these burdens alone. Sometimes when I, when I, when my social instinct kicks in, I can group, lonely with my group or with my tribe. it just, you know, that can, that can be there for me, uh, depending on my acting out or depending on how I'm showing up, sometimes the behaviors can be isolating. So,

Jeff 23:24

I love that because, and this is man, I feel like we're doing an episode for sixes, but when I get provocative, I'm fearful of loneliness.

Adam 23:36

oh yeah. Which is the sixth is really core, core fear of abandonment, you

Jeff 23:41

and then, once I see the reactions, I, I've literally created the loneliness.

Adam 23:50

Self

Jeff 23:50

Because I've pushed people away, it's purely self

Adam 23:55

Oh, yeah.

Jeff 23:56

I, I hope our listeners can understand the dynamic of why these instincts are so important. These are just what it means to be human.

Adam 24:04

Mm hmm.

Jeff 24:04

And yet we can experience so much shame, fear, loneliness, around being human. When these are. This is just what it means to be made in the image of God and to live in relationship with other people and to live in relationship with his creation. And we have these emotions that come alongside our sense of humanity, which can lead us towards one another and towards God, or they can lead These instincts, actually, these experiences, shame, fear, loneliness. Can't actually move us to places. I mean, why don't you comment just a little bit. So let's talk about Loneliness is neither good nor bad, but it certainly is a movement. It's, it's, it's energy that moves So, okay, you walk into a room and you're feeling, okay, are people gonna like And you're wanting to maybe get a little provocative. Maybe, um, the jester is going to come out and start to have a little bit of fun and you're going to over, overcome your loneliness. How can loneliness be a

Adam 25:18

Well, loneliness opens the door to our need for and connection. And so, um, you know, we, you know, one of the things that you referenced voice of the heart earlier, you know, uh, as a great resource on emotions. One of the things that talked about in that book is that emotions just opened the door to our needs. So loneliness opens the door to the need for connection. And if I'm willing to walk through that door, so here's the thing about all emotions, but let's just take loneliness. I can choose to try to bypass it. I can choose to try to medicate it. I can turn to a stimulant. I can, I can, uh,

Jeff 25:58

says, fill, numb or blind.

Adam 26:01

that's right. I can do any of those strategies or I can even shame myself for it. What's wrong with you, Adam, grow up, get over it. But the, the emotion is a fact about me. Like it's a fact that I feel lonely. And so it's a part of reality and you can't dodge reality. You can't numb, you can't escape reality. You can try. So the emotion is there and it's designed to And if I don't let it take me where it's trying to take me, then it's going to, it's going to, uh, it's going to become impaired loneliness. And it's going to take me into, uh, a place where I don't want to go. The emotion is going to carry me to a place I don't want to go. Um, so if I'm

Jeff 26:41

much ambivalence to these instincts.

Adam 26:44

oh my gosh. Yeah. And if

Jeff 26:46

I have ambivalence towards being a one to one

Adam 26:50

yeah, yeah,

Jeff 26:51

towards being a social sex,

Adam 26:53

yeah.

Jeff 26:53

towards being a self pressed sex.

Adam 26:55

Uh huh.

Jeff 26:56

Matter of fact, it probably is some of the things that we're, that feeling of kind of the pit in your stomach when you find your type, that is related to like, I have an instinctual drive that I can't control, that puts me in situations where I experience Shame, loneliness, and fear.

Adam 27:20

Yeah. Here's the way, and here's the way I try to think about it. Our brains are designed, if you want to just boil it all down, our brains are designed to things. Our brains are just constantly scanning and looking for, uh, to help us, help us protect and connect. So I'm, I'm, I'm, their brain's just looking to connect and protect. And so these instincts are how we're going about trying to do that. And why it's so important to be aware of these instincts is, you know, there's no such thing as transformation apart from awareness. So having an awareness of your instincts and how they're showing up and how they're, how they're, this is what we're about to talk about next, how they're coming together with your Enneagram type to form your subtype, having that awareness means. Okay. You have a, you have a huge leg up toward, uh, allowing these instincts to take you into a healthier place and become a healthier self. um, they're still going to help you connect and protect, but in a healthy way. So now protection becomes healthy boundaries as opposed to, you know, defense mechanisms and the connections, you know, these instincts can help you make and build and form healthy connections, whether, whether, whether that's, You know, self prez, whether that's social or whether that's a more intense type of connection with a one to one.

Jeff 28:43

It's interesting, Adam, uh, uh, when, in us talking through this, when I think about my provocativeness, I create what I fear. But whenever I'm aware of going into a room and I'm fearing connecting, that becomes the opportunity for me now to practice self leadership and these parts of me that want to become provocative or want to become fun and grab attention actually move me towards trying to create the kind of relationships that I actually want with the people who are in the And that I don't need relationship with everybody, but. I want to connect with someone because I know that they want to connect with me as well.

Adam 29:33

That's right.

Jeff 29:34

And so the same loneliness, the same shame actually moves me towards people, but it's under the leadership of the truer self, the, the better part of me versus, um, the less mature part of me that's more driven by anxiety Well, why don't you talk about how this connects with the idea of subtypes

Adam 29:56

Yeah, of course. Yeah. So, so everybody has the three instincts. When, when your instinct meets your Enneagram type and particularly like the core weakness or the vice or passion of your type, that gives you your subtype. Um, So, you have nine Enneagram types. Each type uses all three instincts. So Enneagram type has three subtypes. There are three different versions of each of the nine types. So if you're doing your math, I think I can math nine times three. That would mean there, there are 27 total instinctual subtypes within the Enneagram and Beatrice Chestnut has done some tremendous work on this, just to tip our hats to her and her work, but 27 total instinctual subtypes. It's kind of like you said earlier, it's, it's the Sherwin Williams effect. I mean, just understanding that there are three different versions or three different subtypes of each Enneagram type helps us understand why two people of the same type can be so different. It's, it's almost as if there are three different versions. Of a type one or three different versions of a type two. And that's plus when you start adding in the factors of wings and try types and all that stuff, it gets even more complex. But, um, this just helps us understand the beauty of the different shades of, of all nine types. And so what you and I were going to do in these three episodes, Jeff is we're going to unpack, you know, from a, from mostly a 20, 000 foot view, but we're going to unpack the 27 subtypes you know, Beatrice Chestnut's done some great work on this just to, just to honor her. Uh, but this is really, you know, understanding the subtypes is again, it's like you said earlier, it's the Sherwin Williams effect. It's, this explains why. thinking about having 27 subtypes, uh, explains why people of the same type can be so different. It's, it's, it's as if they're almost three different versions of a type one, three different versions of a type two. And then when you start to add, you know, wings and tri types and things like that, and it gets even more complex

Jeff 31:57

of health.

Adam 31:58

levels of health. Yeah.

Jeff 31:59

complex.

Adam 32:01

So you can see how this helps people experience each type so differently. And it helps us understand something of the beauty of, of each type and complexity.

Jeff 32:10

think this is a very practical level. Um, And our conversations with people about the Enneagram, why it's so important to practice the value of curiosity. Because we, there's so many unique differences between types. I mean, saying to people like, we, you're not a one, you don't act like a one. Or, you, you're not a one. Um, I mean, for me, I thought I was an aide for a number of years. People, I've even had other NEO teachers like, Are you sure you're not an aide? I'm like, there is so much stinking anxiety under the hood here. Like, I, yeah, I have fooled you with, uh, we'll get into this in just a moment, the idea of a counter type. But, yeah, I, that, me fooling you that I'm not anxious and that I look like strategy here. And that's what makes me even more of a 6. Um, and so, but I, and I think too, the lack of curiosity, a lot of times that's why we have such contempt, for our Enneagram It's because other people have looked at us or perceived us differently than how we experience ourselves and we're trying to tell people, like, this is just how, rather than accepting the data that we're giving people, people keep pushing back on us, like, no, no, no, that can't be true, that can't be right. And so they don't really embrace all of who we are. And so we learned not to embrace these parts of us that really drive who we are as people. Um, I don't, once you talk a little bit about the idea of what, what exactly is that as a category,

Adam 33:49

Yeah. So briefly, um, let's, let's talk about countertops.

Countertypes Explained

Adam 33:53

I think it's real important to know the countertypes because they're the ones that most often get mistyped. Kind of like you're saying, Oh, there's no way you're a six. Um, and you know, had I known what the Enneagram was when I was, had the Enneagram been as popular, you know, uh, when I was, you know, 20, 21 years old. There, other people would have said, Oh, there's no way he's a six. He's not a six, you know? Um, so here's the idea of counter types of the 27 subtypes. Nine are known as counter types. Um, so one type from each group of the three doesn't match the, the stereotypical descriptions of that type. One, one of the three subtypes is always going to go against the flow of the main type. And this subtype is known as the counter type. So the six is the easiest one for me to talk about is that, you know, the one to one six is the counter type. It's the counter phobic six, where Instead of kind of your classic phobic six, which appears, you know, if you're drawing a caricature and I feel like I can make fun of, of sixes more than I can other types, cause I am a six. So the character, the caricature of the six is the sweaty, nervous guy who's, you know, kind of wringing his hands and he's sort of just scanning for the exits and he's afraid of everyone and he's suspicious. And that's kind of a bottomed out, you know, stereotypical phobic six. Well, the counterphobic, the 6, which is the counterphobic or countertype, is going to manifest almost like an 8. And sometimes they're mistyped as 8s. They're going to have more bravado, they're going to have a strong presence, more stoic, they're going to be, you know, they're, their thing is the way that they're still motivated by fear, though. That's the thing. Their core. Their core desire is still for safety and security. The core message they long to hear is you are safe. It's just that their, their survival instinct meets with their type. And the strategies that come out of that is, well, I'm going to do what I need to do to get bigger than my fear. And the best defense is a good offense. And so I'm going to be big and brash and I'm going to be, you know,

Jeff 36:04

Oh, very risky behavior. Car surfing. I think you mentioned earlier.

Adam 36:08

Yeah. Yeah. Some, some, yeah. Climbing tall structures. Yeah. Risky behavior. And, and what this is, is it's just, it's just a attempt or a strategy to get bigger than the fear. To control the fear. And, but the, but the thing is the fear and, and the core longing and the core, that's all that is still motivating and driving. It's just that it's coming up, it's meeting with the subtype. And so that's an example of, of countertops. What would you add to

Jeff 36:36

Well, you know, just to blow people's minds, uh, and to challenge the stereotypes, what would the counter type five look Well, it's an extroverted five and it was like, no, no, no, no, no. There can't be an extroverted five out there that they wouldn't be a five and they've got to be something else. No, it's the counter type

Adam 36:59

The counter type?

Jeff 37:00

or the type who never criticizes other people and because they're so focused on what's happening internal to their own life that they're not even focused on other people. it looks different or

Adam 37:16

Or the type two. The type two. That is more of a me first mentality, know, as

Jeff 37:23

Oh yeah, you would think, Oh, that

Adam 37:24

serving and caring for

Jeff 37:25

They're all about other people. Right. I think of the type seven, uh, the, the me first type seven, that's always kind of the lead adventurer. the counter type is a seven that looks a lot like a two that, Hey, I'm going to bring the cake for everybody to eat. But in the end of, at the end of the party, I'm going to eat the rest of the cake myself. Like they find their joy through the joy of other people.

Adam 37:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff 37:56

interesting it, challenges, I mean it's, it's kind of a unique way of thinking about, Jesus's call to serve because even whenever people are serving, there, there is kind of self interest that's really driving behind it. And so it's, It's actually a very helpful way of thinking about it. So each of the numbers have a where it's sort of like they're responding differently to the same core motivations, which that's all true of all the subtypes. So core motivations are true of all and then there's the layer of the subtype or the instinct. the instinct, core motivations, and then response, and then the styles of relating to the

Adam 38:45

Jeff. I have, I have a good friend who, uh, is a, is a, one of the, one of the most fascinating cases of countertypes to me is the countertype four. And I have a, I have a good friend who's a countertype four and, she, uh, she still has all the darker feelings. Um, she has the, she has the, comfortable in melancholy, you know, she has, but she's less, uh, You know, again, a stereotypical, you know, type four might be, uh, a dramatic artist who's wearing their feelings on their sleeves. You know, that's a caricature, but, but her emotions are private. And, and really she, you know, deals with her emotions by putting on a happy face around others. And so she manifests as. Not moody or sad or melancholy, but, uh, but typically as bubbly and happy. And, and she has those things, she has those things, but, uh, it's also, she'll be the first to tell you that it's part of the strategy, you know, and it's, it's, it's, it's her instinct showing up with her core motivations of her type and, and then manifesting in this counter type way, just fascinating.

Jeff 39:49

It is fascinating. And, you know, we, we're not in the business of stereotyping people. Um, we're in the business of getting curious about people and hearing from people how they experience their own type. Now we have these new categories. Maybe if you're new to the Enneagram or if you, um, Subtypes are a great category to, uh, understand your type, but also for those enthusiasts out there who want to go further, um, understanding the instincts really does open up the Enneagram, uh, and give us a glimpse into how people operate in very nuanced ways and can help us to, uh, actually connect with one another in ways that, uh, Yeah, we feel more connected with who more acceptance. So, well, I don't think so much. Uh, really appreciate coming into help define what the instincts are. about subtypes, super, super helpful. And yeah, hope you find that helpful about the emotions and our felt experience of um, which is really important because, uh, All this stuff is a matrix of how we engage in God's

Adam 40:57

yeah, that's right, Jeff. And, um, I hope that, you know, we hope that you'll all join us for the next few episodes because, uh, we're gonna, we're going to be unpacking, you know, kind of from a 20, 000 foot view, uh, all 27. instinctual subtypes. And so this is going to be a lot of fun. And it's going to, as we've, as Jeff has shared, create a lot of room for more curiosity and compassion with yourself, with your friends, uh, and with those, uh, in your relational, in your relational world. Um, so remember, it's the Enneagram that reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It's the gospel that transforms us. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode.