Jeff: 0:00

Hey, everybody. I'm Jeff McCord, CEO of Your Enneagram Coach. Welcome back to Your Enneagram Coach, the podcast. Uh, today I am joined by our director of coaching, Adam Breckenridge. Uh, dude, you are an amazing voice. You have a voice made for radio, a face made for What is that?

Adam: 0:22

yeah. It's a face made for radio. I don't know that I have a voice made for radio either, unless you are a fan of Central Arkansas accents, you know, if that's your thing, uh, with a little touch of Midwest Kansas city um, then, and I also have a voice, I have a voice for your radio. If that's your

Jeff: 0:47

Oh, that's funny. Well, we're glad you're back. I'll be honest. Talking about accents, um, having grown up in Texas and then moved to go to the University of Kansas, uh, I worked on my accent. Uh, it was fairly deep. Family's accents, very Texas, long draws, slower pace. And, uh, I worked on it. And my, uh, my friends, when I went back home was like, wow, you really did embrace the North, didn't you?

Adam: 1:14

Yeah.

Jeff: 1:14

I, uh, but every once in a while it comes back and my family is quick to remind me when it does, whenever I say why

Adam: 1:23

when, when, when we are hanging out, it tends to come out, like if we're in person, if I'm at your house, especially like if Carrie, my wife is around, uh, I feel like it brings it out of you.

Jeff: 1:36

Dude, I, I don't know why, but it immediately popped in my mind when this happened. We had a Christmas party here and you and Carrie were here and we were taking a team And Carrie grabbed my hand thinking it was

Adam: 1:53

Uh, yes, yes,

Jeff: 1:57

like, Oh, hey, Carrie.

Adam: 1:59

yeah, she's a type nine. Uh, so it's not like she just like, I feel like maybe an eight or seven, maybe what he just went with it. I'm like, oh yeah, I want to, we're going to hold hands for this picture. You know? And she was like, Oh, Oh, everything's I've

Jeff: 2:17

there.

Adam: 2:19

Uh, it really

Jeff: 2:22

Oh, that's super fun. Well, hey everybody. Well, we are here to help you see yourself with astonishing clarity so that you can break free from self condemning self. See that it almost came out right there, like self condemnation,

Adam: 2:35

Condemnation. Oh, I

Jeff: 2:43

Oh, that, I mean, it's like, oh man, that, yeah, it sounds like a preacher voice. Condemnation, so to help you break free from your southern accents, no I'm joking, uh, to help you break free from self condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, What we've been talking about, uh, beginning with our last episode and what we'll be talking about for the next three episodes is the topic of subtypes and, or instinctual And the reason why this is important because it helps us to explain all the variances between Enneagram types. Now there are actually 27 instinctual subtypes, which means that each Enneagram tons of variations. And so it helps to explain to us, uh, one, why there's so much difference that we are, like you If this is like Sherwin Williams paint colors, there's a ton of different blues. There's a tons of different Number two, the instincts actually, occur or come online before our type. So it explains the why behind It explains our primary focus of attention, um, that makes us different from But this also, whenever we come to understand these dynamics in our own world, it helps us to understand others. And how, why, and how their Enneagram type shows up And so it actually gives us an opportunity, a window into curiosity people. And I want you to offer everybody just a brief description of what those three instincts

Adam: 4:27

Absolutely. Yeah, we talked about this in the last episode as well, but, um, the subtypes are based on 3 human Uh, the first instinct, these are all instincts for survival. We said this in the last episode, your brain is designed to help you connect and protect, uh, so that you can survive, uh, stay alive. And, uh, that's essentially what these instincts are trying to help you do. The first instinct is self preservation. Uh, this is a person that walks into a room and says, uh, do we have enough food, you know, um, and, uh, you know, or do we have, are we breaking the fire code in this room? Like, is everybody safe? Am I safe? And it's kind of this, how do I keep myself alive? It's the fundamental question. Um, the second instinct is social, the social instinct, and this is. I'm walking into a room and I'm saying, where are my people? Where's my tribe? This is kind of a herd mentality. I need my people to survive. And then the third instinct is the one to one or sexual. And this, this person with this, with the one to one instinct is going to walk into a room and say, who do I feel the strongest connection with? This is an intense drive for, Uh, deep one on one relationships, a drive for intimacy and connection, lots of chemistry between, you're noticing the chemistry between yourself and and we talked about this in the last episode, you know, we use all three of these, Jeff. Uh, so we use all three instincts. One is typically more dominant. Um, one is, uh, uh, typically repressed and considered kind of a blind spot. And then we have a second one there in the middle that can show up and that we can rely on in different ways. Uh, but those are the, those are the

Jeff: 6:06

Now, Adam, one term that we're going to be using throughout this as we go through the heart triad, the idea of the counter type. Explain what the idea of the counter type

Adam: 6:18

Yeah. Counter types is one of the three subtypes is always going to go against the flow of the main It doesn't match the stereotypical descriptions of that type. It sort of goes against the flow and it's these, these types are often misunderstood. It's easy to misunderstand them. It's easy to mistype them. It's, it can be even easy for them to mistype themselves. Um, if you're listening to this conversation and been on a journey of trying to discover your type and you're, maybe you're hung up on a couple of different types, uh, and you're, you're struggling to land on a type, consider, consider the subtypes. It can really help you when it comes to finding your type. And so, um, but those counter types is just, Hey, this is, subtype that's going against the flow of the main type person still driven by the same core motivations of their type. Um, it's just that it shows up in a counter in a counter way. So that's the counter type.

Jeff: 7:17

Well, why don't we dive in? Let's go to type two, Adam.

Adam: 7:20

Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, I feel like I want to say this, uh, real quick is I don't think I mentioned this, but Jeff, when those instincts come up against your, the strategies Enneagram type, that's what forms your subtype. on that. And so, um, let's jump into, let's jump into the type two. We'll talk about their. There's subtypes. So let's start with self preservation. Um, this actually is the counter type, uh, for the type two, the self prez two is the counter type. Um, so this subtype doesn't, it kind of goes against the flow of the, of the main type. Um, it's a little bit of a me first mentality. typically known for, you know, serving others and, you know, forsaking their own needs to focus on the needs of others. But, um, the self preservation to, uh, subtype of the two is, is kind of a, uh, kind of contradicts the servant heart of the two a little bit, or it can at least. So this subtype unconsciously persuades others to kind of. Uh, give them what they want or what they need. They, they want others to love and value and prioritize them. Um, they're, they're not going to be direct or demand care. It's not like they're going to demand this out of people, but they might pursue this through, um, their charm. They're, they're, they're, uh, They're easy to love. They're easy to connect They're, playful. They're fun people. They're, um, they're, they're lighthearted. And so, but that can also be kind of used as a to, get the care that they need out of others. Um, their strengths, they're incredibly supportive. Incredibly caring. They can, they can be very attentive to others Um, the challenge is, is they can be overprotective. They can be possessive and they can be too self Um, the social too. This is also known as the ambitious too. They tend to have a desire for more power, more control. They're excellent at persuading or wooing others. Um, these, these, these people can be great leaders. They can gain a following. Sometimes they're mistyped as a three or an eight because of that. They're charming, uh, sociable, influential, you know, that social instinct really gives them a strong So when they're, when they're in the group in society, whatever they, they typically have a very strong presence. Um, Strengths, again, leadership is a strength, charisma, they're socially adept, make great leaders. Some of the challenges of a social two is they can be, they can come across as manipulative, they can be overly people pleasing, um, and sometimes they can neglect personal boundaries. You know, sometimes you hear that twos will talk about how that can be a struggle for them. Or people in relationship with twos can talk about that being a struggle. And sometimes that's the social too. They just want to help. They want to serve their group. they want to help in their relationships, but sometimes if they're not careful, that instinct can show up and lead to a, uh, a crossing of a boundary. Um, Uh, so the one to one two, um, sometimes this is called, you know, Jeff, we see in any game literature, this is called the seductive two. And I know some twos that really don't like that language. Uh, but you can re you can remove like sexual connotations from that. Um, what we're really saying here is that the one to one twos are focused on wooing those in their most intimate relationships, uh, in order to survive. In order to have their needs met. Um, they can present themselves as, uh, irresistible. Um, they're like magnets, um, and when their efforts work, they feel, they feel taken care of. They feel safe. They feel, sometimes they can even feel a bit inflated, but maybe on top of the world on cloud nine, when their efforts don't work, uh, they can feel extremely deflated and rejected. You know, this is where that shame comes in, uh, which is, you know, in the heart triad, that's the core underlying emotional struggle. And sometimes you really see that in one to one twos. If their, their, their, uh, their passionate bids for connection, their intense bids for connection are met with rejection. Whew, that's a recipe. That can be a recipe for a shame storm. Their strengths are they're, they have super gift of empathy. Uh, loyalty, intimacy is a strong gift that they bring. Challenges is they, they can be possessive. They can be overly And they can struggle with jealousy. So, um, those are the, those are the subtypes for the type two. Is there anything that I missed Jeff? Anything you want

Jeff: 12:03

Yeah, there's a few things that come to mind for me, you know, the, in this first application of self praise, um, one to social. notice that the focus of attention for each of these is different. And so whereas all twos have a sense to where their needs haven't been met and they want to be an instrument of meeting those needs in others. So that's true of all of them and the fear of rejection that they're not loved. That's why those needs weren't met. So other people, but the counter type focuses on their needs. there. I'm, I can get animated with my hands whenever I talk, so I'm banging on all so the idea of the self press one or the self press two is that they're, they really do want their needs met that the forgot what instrument it is, but the accordion of need is so great that they're going to try and have that need met, you'll notice that they'll talk about fine, they'll have, they'll have be more maybe financially, conservative because they want to make sure that they have enough. They might be focused more on asking about food. Our daughter is a And so she often asks, what are we having for dinner? What are we, what do we have to eat? What do we have to eat? And be fine. Like you're very concerned. You're always asking us questions about it. It's, she's not making an indictment of things. She's just, that's just mind for This idea of the social too, I'm going to find that in the group. I'm not going to find that for myself. I'm going to. I'm going to somehow be these, the two of the group and take care of the group, the mother hen of the group. That's how I'm going to overcome fear that I And then you see the one that's going all in on making sure that they don't feel rejected, to one. You know, it was interesting. I, Um, I was thinking about how some of these might be mistyped as other You know, when you look at some of these, what twos are often mistyped, what other types do they often get Mistyped as?

Adam: 14:23

yeah. Well, I, I mentioned earlier the, the, um, the social too can, can be mistyped as a three or an eight. there's just a strong leadership presence. There's a strong charm. There's, you know, this emphasis on wooing others. and persuading others. And, um, and so, threes possess that same, that same characteristic. So, um, yeah, that's, I think that might be in my experience, the most common mistype for four or two. Um, how, how, how, how might, how might this, Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

Jeff: 15:00

mistyped because they're so

Adam: 15:05

Uh,

Jeff: 15:05

Uh, and particularly within, uh, with. intimate relationships that they may have, or very close relationships. They may become way more possessive, fearful of being rejected, or that that person may be, um, they may experience some jealousy. but no, like all, all of these are still motivated by the same core motivations. It's just a different expression of their two ness.

Adam: 15:30

That's right. That's right. Jeff, you want to tell us about the type three?

Jeff: 15:35

Alrighty, let's dive into type three. So type three, if we're going to start off with the Now the self prez three, it's not always this self prezes are the counter type for the type But for the type three the self prez is again like the is the counter type and they're they're going to be focused on material success security So it's not it's not as much of accomplishment, but it's accomplishment with material success where they're going to find They want to be perfect. They want to be the perfect role model. They want to be hardworking, polished, effective and productive. They can often be mistyped as a type one, uh, because they're so perfectionistic, it's very common for us to have that, uh, conversation with people. They'll present as a one, uh, it's more tied to accomplishment moral Uh, self pres threes are reliable, responsible, industrious, but the challenge for the subtype is that they're prone to being workaholics and they may neglect their own relationships. In order to fulfill this need for security and the social, their focus is placed on recognition and status. So it's the group recognizing them. So it's not what I need to do to succeed, or it's not what I need to do to succeed to provide my But how do I need to succeed in the group social threes? They're charismatic. They're sociable their image conscience. They enjoy the spotlight and strive to professional and social ladder of all the type three of all the three subtypes. The social threes are the most. Competitive and aggressive in their desire to gain influence and to be admired Their masters at knowing what is expected of them and can become whatever Or whomever they need to be in order to win They're excellent communicators networkers and leaders You know, which is always kind of interesting Adam because we Each of these parts of us because I think of the three part of my heart I associate with being a social and it's because of these very gifts like I I i'll become what you need me to become and as a very versatile six I can become a lot of different

Adam: 18:05

mm

Jeff: 18:05

Um, which is a strength but also there's this image of this group, this kind of repercussion that comes, this echo that comes of shame is that I'm abandoning myself in order to in the Well, these three oftentimes miss that element of shame, and so they are just the image that they are And so, they're excellent communicators, like I said, excellent networkers, um, they're excellent leaders, but the challenge is that they can often can be overly concerned with their own appearance. Become manipulative and neglectful of their true forget who they really are and other people in relationship with them don't realize who they're relating to because they're always changing depending Well, the last one is the one to one threes. They don't have the same need to be in the spotlight as the social subtype. fascinating, isn't it? That there's a three that's not as tied to image, but they are tied to and accomplishment. They tend to be more focused on personal attractiveness and creating strong connections Uh, so that means that they're way more relational and attuned to people. They achieve validation and admiration from building strong bonds with their family and with their friends and colleagues. So they're way more grounded and connected. with Uh, they're passionate, they're engaging, influential. They're still showing some of those same three characteristics. Um, and they can also be emo, but they can also be emotionally turbulent and overly competitive, which can cause problems in their relationship. Why? Because they're potential of in these intimate relationships. And when those relationships aren't working out, um, that can Activate some Adam. Do you have any thoughts regarding the type three?

Adam: 19:59

Yeah, just again, you're noticing the same, the same thing play out is that they're the same core fears there. There's a fear of being incompetent, fear of failing, fear of being exposed, you know, fear of not. Appearing successful and there's that core desire to be valued and admired and, and just be seen as successful to be loved for who you are, not what you do, you know, all that is still at play. It's just, it's just taking different shapes. Um, it's like you're pouring that same thing into different shaped glasses. Um, and so with the, with the, with the one to one you have more of the role model, um, with the social, you have more of, this is more of the star. This is the front stage leader. This is the, this is the star in the group. And then, uh, with the one to one you have, it's very different. There's not, there's not that same need to be in the public spotlight. It's more of, um, how am I coming across? Uh, with, with a few people that matter most to me, you know, it's like, I'm not, I'm not as concerned with public opinion, but certainly with, um, you know, with your most intense connections or the people that matter most, it's, there's, there's definitely a, I want to, I want to appear a certain way to those people, and that's where I'm going to try to tap into. You know, meaning and security. And so again, just the same core core motivations playing itself out. It's not that the three is becoming a different type. It's, it's, it's at the core level. This is just kind of like three different versions of a type three. So, um, let's talk about type four. Shall we? Type four, the self prez four. This is the sometimes called the tenacity subtype. And again, three in a row here, Jeff, we happen to be dealing with, with the countertype. Um, I promise not all countertypes are self prez, in this episode, they are. this subtype doesn't look like a typical type 4, you know, I mentioned this, uh, in the last episode that I have a friend who is a self preservation 4 and, um, self preservation 4s still have all the darker feelings of a type 4. They exhibit all that, but they deal with their emotions privately. And they typically put on a happier face around Um, they, they keep their emotions private. they're less dramatic. They don't wear their emotions on their sleeves, uh, in a way that you might think afford us. Um, their strengths are they're incredibly resilient, long suffering, independent. There is a certain toughness to them. There's a certain resilience that they Um, there's an ability to bounce back. There's an ability to, um, you know, there's a healthy way to smile and have joy in And I feel like Self Preservation 4 can, can teach us something about that. There's, that can, that can be a strength. It can also be a survival coping mechanism, but it can be a strength. The challenges of Self Preservation 4 is they, they can become overly withdrawn. can be mistrustful and they can become detached from their, uh, from their relationships. And you can see how that can cause some relational problems that the being withdrawn, mistrustful, um, and, and detaching themselves can cause problems in their closest relationships. The social.

Jeff: 23:17

talk a lot about, uh, self prez oftentimes are typed as a type eight.

Adam: 23:24

Oh yeah.

Jeff: 23:24

that Uh, they're that withdrawn and, uh, that mistrustful showing some of the other qualities of but it, it's tied to this idea of having essential needs being met and they're not going to be as dependent upon others, nor do they want to feel the threat of those needs not being met. And so they've adopted these kinds of stronger strategies, uh, so that they don't feel

Adam: 23:54

that's right. That's exactly right. Yeah. And, and, uh, let's talk about the social, uh, This is, um, this is sometimes called the shame four. This, you know, fours are in that heart triad of that, uh, core underlying emotion of shame uh, of all the fours, the social four might be the most attuned to their, their own sense of shame. The question they're always asking is, do I belong and do I matter? And I think on some level, we're all asking that question, but the social four is looking at their group. Uh, they're looking at, they're looking at society again. They're, they're again, their instinct is social. So they're looking at the larger group and they're asking that question. Do I belong? Do I matter? Do I fit? Am I recognized? Does anybody see me? I think it was Kurt Thompson who said, everybody's born looking for somebody looking for them. And the four is asking that question, like who's looking for The social four is looking at the group and saying, does anybody's face light up when they see me? And they're a little more sensitive to that question. They're a little more sensitive to, uh, social dynamics and whether they fit in or whether they don't fit in. They can, they can come across a bit more emotionally expressive. They can feel more comfortable, more at home in their melancholy. It's interesting cause they want to fit in, but they want to be different. And there's a certain melancholy that lives in that tension and they can, they can feel very at home in that Um, they're incredibly strong in Um, I mean, a great capacity for attuning, uh, to others and, and a great capacity for empathy. They're high emotional IQ, um, and very socially aware people. Some of the challenges, however, is that they can be overly self conscious. They can be envious. Yes. You know, of what others have, or they, what they perceive others have, and they can seek attention through, uh, their suffering and through their mood changes can be one of their strategies for trying to get the attention of the group. Um, again, but we have a lot of compassion because again, they're, they're just trying to find their place. They're trying to answer that question of do I belong and do I matter? So that's the social four.

Jeff: 26:10

know, Adam, I, I'm reminded of a friend who was, uh, he's a Pastor is a social and, uh, when he would preach prior to, uh, Sunday sermons, he could picture where people were in the congregation and how they might respond to his message. But it was Austin through the lens of uh, whether or not they're going to agree or not. And he was always attuning to, uh, Those their faces while preaching. Now it's common for pastors to kind of you, you know, the people who fall asleep every Sunday. And, um, you know, the people who are always very engaged in the note takers and the kids, like the kids are just, um, they can be a hoot because they're, The parents are just trying to control them and keep Um, it, it, it's interesting that, uh, rather than focusing on a person or perceiving it as this kind of individual kind the, uh, temperamental artist kind of idea that they're playing to the audience of one, the the social type is really taking cues The interesting phenomenon is that. They never think of themselves as being enough. They're always fundamentally flawed, which is why the idea of shame shows predominantly the, sufferer, the, um, the one who's the moodiness always comes up cause they're always thinking and fantasizing over these conversations that may or may not have even

Adam: 27:37

Yeah. And kind of like the self preservation. six is for the kind of how that functions as the sort of stereotypical normal caricature of a six. The social four is kind of the stereotypical what you think of when you think of a type four is sort of the caricature. But, um, but, but you have, you have these other subtypes, you know, and one to one, the or sexual subtype is the last one of the type four. And there's some sometimes called the competitive four. Um, again, it's just a focus on intense. Focus on one on one relationships. It's been said that this subtype is the most on the Enneagram. Like. competitive than a three, like this is the most competitive, uh, Enneagram type. A one to one four is the most competitive different shades of Enneagram types. They can use comparison to feel or appear better about themselves. We call this laddering. And I think, again, all humans do this on a conscious or subconscious level, but you walk into a room and you're essentially throwing ladders against the wall and trying to Compare yourself with others, engage. Am I ahead of this person or behind this person? Am I, where am I? And it can, you can do it with anything. You can do it with success, finances, looks, image, talent. You name it. And so, um, the, the competitive for the one to one fours sort of can use that laddering technique, um, in an intense way. And so instead of feeling shame about themselves or a sense that they're, they're lacking, Their shame really expresses itself in the secondary emotion of anger. They can become, they can become angry with others for not giving them what they desire, or if they feel that they're not enough, across as Um, which sometimes, you know, not to get, back into a podcast on, on emotions, emotions are certainly a part of us and they show in each type in a different way. But anger can be sometimes feel less vulnerable to reach for than shame. So, um, the one to one for kind of carries more anger because of that, they can be mistyped as a type eight sometimes, um, because, uh, they're, they're the angry for, um, now their strengths are, they have an incredible capacity for They have tons of emotional creative. Um, you know, their, their emotional energy can be used to create that they're, they can be angry at, but they can also be angry for something. And it can, it can, it can manifest in creative energy they're, creating something beautiful, whether that's a beautiful experience or a piece of art or whatever. Um, challenges though, with the one is they can be overly competitive and they can be given to. Too much to comparison, um, and they can be too intense in their anger. And you can see how all those challenges can cause relational difficulties for them. So, um, Jeff, I think that rounds out the heart triad. What do you, what do you have to add?

Jeff: 30:49

just a few thoughts, kind of backing out and thinking about this as a triad, um, This is the heart triad and they wrestle with, I'll say, I'll use the word glory. They, they wrestle with their own dignity on the flip side of that. We usually chalk that under as shame. and so the, one of the ways in which to discover your subtype is to think through what, what Is your shame related is it your shame related to your needs, your basic needs? Is it the shame related to, is your shame related group or is it the attention of another, of the individual?

Adam: 31:38

It's a great diagnostic for helping understand your subtype.

Jeff: 31:42

And, but there, the problem is like we have this long, I remember a pastor once telling me, um, we don't like glory. We don't like God's glory and we're always trying to hide from it. And we don't like our own. And so we're going to try to find other be able to satisfy this longing for dignity be seen, uh, by without rejection. So you find some of these, each of these types, each of these, uh, subtypes have different ways of going about receiving the attention, the sense Being given as God, having been made in the image of God, this longing for but to do it in manipulative maybe they forsake the group and focus on the or they're more attentive to the group dynamics in whatever groups that they may be in, or that they're more focused on individualistic strategies in order to have that need met, um, versus playing the games of other people. So I'm just going to make sure that I don't You've probably heard us use it and a lot of people do use it quote But the cave you fear holds the treasure you for each of the twos threes and fours and all of their subtypes Your shame is the invitation That is the opportunity that you have in order to what's actually driving you Towards this now There is a way of experience the shame that actually can adam speak to this There's a healthy way of shame of dealing with shame. And so adam, why don't you talk about what's the invitation of Behind shame and our experience of

Adam: 33:40

yeah, the basic shame opens the door to our need for to be to be seen and loved. You know, that's shame has to do with how I see me, how I see others. And how I see others seeing So shame is that shame is an invitation for, um, opening myself up to be seen in love, which is risky and vulnerable. Um, and if you can walk through the door of your shame with, with the people that you want to be seen and loved by, um, it, again, it's a risk, but you're. It gives us the gift of being seen and loved. It gives us the gift of being affirmed. It gives us the gift of being, of having, having someone's approval. Um, and so that's the gift of, of your shame. That's the invitation of your shame. It's, it's really an invitation to be seen and loved.

Jeff: 34:29

you know, I I hear some of the echoes and resemblances to attachment styles when talking

Adam: 34:39

Mm

Jeff: 34:40

because there are those that are anxiously present with others, trying to address that fundamental problem with There are some of them that are more avoidant of other relationships. and there are some that are kind of on the in between. They're anxiously avoidant. uh, And so it, there's, there's a lot to be discovered around for this, the heart triad regarding there, sometimes you might mistype, but these are different ways, different lenses of see the diversity of the different threes and fours as it relates to these uh, one to one and Well, thanks a lot, Adam, uh, for, uh, Hanging out today and talking through types two, threes and Is there anything remaining that you'd like to share?

Adam: 35:38

No, it's just been really good to be with you and, um, uh, and hang out with our audience. And, uh, and I hope that everybody comes back to join us for the next couple of conversations. Cause when you and I come back, we're going to be talking about the instinctual subtypes within the head triad. And um, so five types, five, six, and seven, and we're both sixes. So it's going to get real sexy in this next episode. Um, so, uh, yeah, I hope you'll join us for those conversations. Looking forward to

Jeff: 36:08

And Hey, everybody, don't forget that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your It's really fundamentally the that transforms us. Thanks so much for joining