Jeff: 0:00

Well, hey, everyone, welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I am Jeff McCord, uh, the CEO and co founder of your Enneagram coach. And joining me for this conversations day is my friend and fellow, uh, team member, our director of coaching. Adam Breckenridge. We're going to get to him in a moment. But, uh, and for those of you who are turning, tuning in, it's our mission here at Your Enneagram Coach to help you see yourself with astonishing clarity, to help you break free from self condemnation, fear, and shame by knowing and experiencing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and freedom in Christ. Now, If you love this content and then turn on automatic downloads or like and subscribe on you on our YouTube channel and also share this with someone that you think would enjoy or benefit from this comment, uh, content. Now if you would, uh, we are brainstorming future content Constantly. And so, uh, if you would, if you're interested in future topics that are maybe related to what we're going to be talking about today, be sure to leave them in the comments. Adam and I were spending some time in answering comments this last week from previous episodes. So you can leave a comment or you can email us at info at your enneagram coach. com. And we'd be happy to get back to you and consider it for a future episode. The last and probably the most important thing you've heard us mention it before, but just as a reminder, Beth is on sabbatical. She has not abandoned you all, uh, and particularly not abandoned you to Adam and Jeff. Um, that is, uh, that would not, well, actually she has kind of, um, but that's not necessarily her fault. Uh, but Adam and I are here to take care of you while Beth is taking a break. Yikes. That woman, she published a book last year, took care of me and my heart crisis and moved her parents to Nashville. So, uh, and then. So, uh, she needed a break and, uh, she is doing fantastic. So we are grateful, uh, just for your initial welcoming of Adam and I leading the podcast. And so we're, um, hopefully going to be able to lead you well, uh, as she takes a little break. So Adam, so glad you're here, friend.

Adam: 2:14

I'm so glad to be here. You know that, that reminds me of that Parker Palmer quote where he said, uh, something to the effect of self-care is never a selfish act. It is simply good stewardship of the one gift I have to offer. Uh, so I'm so glad that Beth has taken some time to take care of herself. Um, and just, yeah, praying for her during this season. So, and I'm glad that, you know, we get to do this together. So Jeff, I'm glad you're here. And to those of you tuning in, we're glad you're here. Um, on this episode of the

Jeff: 2:46

she's doing well yesterday. She spent the, almost the entire day hanging out with a friend and, um, and then doing some. recovery work, uh, reading in this wonderful place we call the factory in Franklin. And, um, I got to go and grab coffee and hang out with her and do some work with her. So it was, she's, she's a sabbaticaling. Well, is that a word?

Adam: 3:09

It, it Is

Todd: 3:10

Is now,

Adam: 3:10

is

Todd: 3:10

yeah.

Adam: 3:11

Yeah, it's, it is now it's, it's going to be in the, by this afternoon, it will be in the urban dictionary.

Jeff: 3:18

Awesome.

Adam: 3:19

and so, Hey, we're so glad you all are tuning in and, uh, we have a, we have an amazing guest and I'm so excited to introduce him, uh, on this episode of the podcast, we're going to be talking about the Enneagram and attachment theory. And our guest and conversation partner for this episode episode is Dr. Todd Hall. Dr. Hall is a professor of psychology at Biola university's Rosemead school of psychology. And he serves as a faculty affiliate in the Harvard human flourishing program. He has authored and contributed to several books and his latest book is the connected life, the art and science of relational spirituality. And he brings with him over 30 years of experience helping leaders, coaches, and entrepreneurs achieve deep relational and spiritual growth. So Dr. Hall, welcome to the podcast and thanks for being here.

Todd: 4:11

Thank you, Adam and Jeff. It's great to be here with you. I've been really looking forward to this conversation.

Adam: 4:17

now you gave, you

Jeff: 4:18

Uh, now we, we agreed. Early on like what to call you. So we're gonna call you Todd

Todd: 4:22

Yes.

Jeff: 4:23

Hall

Adam: 4:24

That's exactly

Jeff: 4:25

So we're not trying to be disrespectful, but that that was pretty impressive what you read there, Adam Like I, Todd is a very gentle, kind, hospitable man, but you carry a resume that is significant, Todd. I mean, what was it that got you into psychology from the beginning?

Todd: 4:46

Yeah, that's an interesting story and kind of connected to the writing of The Connected Life, no pun intended there. But, um, yeah, it really did grow out of my own story of disconnection and, uh, growing up with a mom who struggled with a lot of mental health issues. Parents split up when I was young, so that led to a lot of disconnection. But I became a Christian when I was quite young through friends. I did not grow up in a Christian family. Um, and actually was blessed to have a pastor who encouraged me to go into psychology or to check it out. I originally started off wanting to be a pastor and kind of going down that road for a road for a little bit. And then, uh, My pastor encouraged me to think about psychology. I started checking it out and really just kind of fell in love with it and um, started to see that it seemed like there were some, some really great tools there for my own growth, but also for, for ministry.

Jeff: 5:39

and that would have been a big deal cuz Christianity and psychology have not always had a good relationship

Todd: 5:45

That is correct. Yeah, it's been a,

Jeff: 5:48

To have a pastor say, Hey, go that route.

Todd: 5:51

Yes. Yes. And I feel very blessed by that because even today, you know, it's gotten a little better, I would say. So I've been involved in this conversation and teach in this area of, you know, what we call the integration of psychology and theology. And, you know, we've definitely made progress of how do we bring these two fields together and, and think well about this. And so I think we have made progress. Progress, but there are, I would say, also pockets of folks in the church who have kind of become more entrenched in a stance that, you know, psychology is bad, sort you know, psychology. So I still have students come who have, you know, pretty painful experiences in the church with church leaders. Uh, in that realm. So I, I do feel very blessed that, that this pastor was in my life and, and really encouraged me to, to go that route. So I never really had to deal with that at a personal level. Yeah.

Jeff: 6:42

Well, Adam is well experienced in, uh, bringing, uh, principles of psychology into pastoral ministry. And Adam, you did some research and put some thoughts together on. This topic that we're going to be addressing today, the disconnected life and loneliness. Why don't you share about some of the things that you learned?

Adam: 7:03

yeah, yeah, yeah, well, it was I love your book, The Connected Life, uh, uh, Todd Thank you. And, and, you know, it's really getting at our relational design and the life of connection that we're made for. It's addressing a major pain point in the human experience, which is the, the opposite of a life of connection is a life of disconnection and a life of loneliness. And, you know, we know that that sociologists all across the West are calling loneliness an epidemic. Now, um, I'm sure you're familiar from 2017 called the commission on loneliness that said that of those who participated in the survey, more than 9 million people marked that they. Often or always feel lonely. And they went on in that report. It was crazy. They talked about the effect this has on our souls and in our bodies. Um, there was a line in there that said that loneliness kills. It's, it's proven to be worse for health and smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

Todd: 8:02

Yes.

Adam: 8:04

Loneliness leads to greater risk of cardiovascular disease, dementia, depression, anxiety. And then they threw in this, uh, this kind of scary line of young or old loneliness doesn't discriminate. Um, and, uh, It's crazy. And then I, I saw, you know, in recent years, of course, Britain, you know, created a new government position called the Minister of Loneliness, uh, whose, whose job is just to establish policies that address, you know, the long term impact that loneliness has on individuals and society. And there was a line in your book that where all of this sort of comes together. Um, and you say, you say in there in a time when nearly half of Americans are reporting loneliness and disconnection, uh, as an epidemic, we need healthy attachment bonds. Uh, perhaps now more than ever. So I think a great place to start would be maybe to have, if you will, tell us a little more about your heart for this need. Um, and, and, and how this book is addressing that need.

Todd: 9:04

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Adam. And definitely loneliness is a huge issue. And yeah, my, my heart for this need and the book really does grow out of my story. As I mentioned a moment ago of growing up with quite a bit of disconnection and then, um, you know, finding the resources spiritually and socially and relationally to work through, you know, those, those things and learn how to connect, you know, in a more secure way and develop secure attachment with, with God and other people. And. So, you know, I think I experienced that myself first in my own life in, in college and then in graduate school. Um, you know, at Rosemead, we, the, so I now teach at Rosemead, as you mentioned, and we're one of the few programs in the country that actually requires our students to, to go through their own therapy process. And our, so our deep belief in mine is, you know, if you're gonna help people as, as a therapist or, you know, and that applies to coaching or any kind of helping role, you need to be on your own journey of growth and. Developing self awareness. And, um, so we take that seriously. I sometimes say to my students, you know, you, you are the tool. That's what I experienced in my own therapy and growth process. And then working with clients for 30 years now. Um, and that's what the research bears out. You know, when you look at the outcome research on, um, therapy, it's the relationship that, that really heals. So experiencing that myself, Um, in my own growth process, um, really awakened me to the importance of this, um, growth process and the importance of relationships, not only in just general life, but in spiritual life as well. And I started to see how, um, our, you know, early relationships impact our experience of God. And I experienced that again in my own life. And then working with clients, which is really what got me into the research interest. Interestingly, I worked, you know, mainly with Christian clients early on. In my career, and I saw that pretty much to a person, people who clients I saw who struggled with, you know, a background of trauma or abuse or disconnection, you know, whatever it was, I saw that play out in their relationship with God in terms of their, you know, their deep experience, right? Even if they were committed, knew a lot about God in their head, different way of knowing, we'll talk about that. Um, but there was almost always this parallel experience in their relationship with God. So that got me into looking at attachment. Uh, theory, which I was exposed to in graduate school and then looking at attachment to God. How does this play out in our relationship with God? And so I ended up doing research in that area and just seeing that I think this is crucial for spiritual growth and formation and the church and especially Christian leaders really, really need to understand this. And especially, so back to your, back to your question, Adam, just this moment we're living in with all this loneliness, it's especially relevant right now because it Murthy, as you mentioned, has been. The US in general. Yeah, he's, he's been talking for a while. He has a fairly recent book called together.

Adam: 12:02

I read it. Yeah.

Todd: 12:04

Great book talking about this. Um, uh, you mentioned the, you know, study on, um, you know, mortality that loneliness is, you know, impacts has a negative impact on mortality rates. And so that comes from a big meta analysis, um, study, um, by a researcher named Julianne Holtstad Lund. And, interestingly, I just heard her speak at the American Psychological Association. It was a, you know, what they call a main stage event. focused on loneliness. So that's an indication of how much of a crisis this is. How big of a topic that at the American Psychological Association, they had a keynote, you know, talk on loneliness. So, yeah, it's, and it's been, we're hearing more about it now, but it's been growing really for the last 50 years. Um, so, you know, in the last 50 years we've seen a, uh, increase in loneliness and social isolation and decline in community involvement. And participation. And a lot of that work, um, was, was done by Robert Putnam and his book, Bowling Alone, if you're familiar with that. And he's done some work since then. So he really documented a lot of that. So it's been going on for a while. And then we have, you know, you layer on top of that, the pandemic and the impact of technology

Adam: 13:19

Digital age. Oh, yeah.

Todd: 13:20

They'll do a page right on on kids and so Jonathan Hyde, if you're familiar with him as a psychologist doing some great work in this area, he's got a recent book that just came out called The Anxious Generation and so he, um, he argues basically the kind of the big thesis of the book is that the shift from what he calls a play based childhood to a phone based childhood is a major reason why children born after 1995 became what he calls the anxious generation. And, and, um, he, he says that the smartphones acted like experience blockers, um, that made it difficult for children and adolescents to get the embodied social experiences they need. So, you know, you layer that on top and we've got this breakdown of community and family. We've got tech, the rise of technology that's really, you know, really impacting Our young adults. Um, and there's, it's just a recipe for disaster. The perfect storm, right? Where we just have so much loneliness and disconnection and it all, it plays out in our spiritual lives because if we understand spirituality to be about relationship, right? Relationship with God, relationship with each other in the body of Christ, where we are supposed to shine God's light to the world, right? And display God's love to the world. It, you know, then it has to impact, our spiritual lives.

Jeff: 14:43

know, it's interesting, Todd, here, you're talking about, um, the Anxious Generation book. You know, I, my childhood, um, In one sense, my parents stayed together. I was adopted. Uh, so I never looked like my parents and it was, I was, it was made known to me very early on. So there was a certain disconnect there that I'm not like them. And they had their own story, but it, you know, they, They never divorced, but there were other things involved. And then I think about, uh, my childhood. I mean, we were like a little gang in our neighborhood. We were either playing soccer at the tennis court, uh, woofel ball in the driveway, football in the street, or riding our bikes around the neighborhood and just going house to house getting water. Cause we were in Texas getting water and food from just. Foraging around the neighborhood. And it's interesting though, that, I wonder, you know, being Gen X. If loneliness just shows up a little bit differently because I don't think that, you know, the younger generations now kind of get the market on loneliness, but there's certainly always been loneliness in some ways as we have experienced. I mean, it seemed like that was an immediate implication of the fall for Adam and Eve is separation from God, separation from one another in this sense of loneliness in the world. Maybe some kind of disconnection from creation itself where things weren't going to function as well as in. So now how do I live out my sense of purpose and calling? Um, Yeah, I mean it was just interesting to hear you say that because I'm like, I don't know if gen x would be considered a connected generation

Todd: 16:27

Yeah. Well, yeah, certainly there is loneliness across the generations, and it has been, you know, growing in recent times, but the research does suggest that Gen Z, the young adults, the rate of growth is steeper.

Jeff: 16:42

Interesting.

Todd: 16:43

Yeah, more,

Jeff: 16:44

There's a lot of them too.

Todd: 16:45

and anxiety and depression, but loneliness definitely. Along with that's part of what height documents in his book. I mean, if you look through, he shows a number of charts of different ways of, you know, kind of that the research looks at anxiety, depression, loneliness, things like this. And you can you know, what he highlights in these charts is, is from 2010 to 2015. You just see a steep, a steep incline in depression, anxiety, loneliness, and particularly anxiety, depression also. But so it does seem steeper for them. But, but I think, yes, loneliness is increasing for across the generations, and probably looks different, as you've mentioned, Jeff.

Jeff: 17:26

Well, one of the things I mean, this is an enneagram con our uh podcast So we're going to be talking about the enneagram a little bit But one of the things that I I thought would be a curious little not tangent. It's really related to this but uh to make it more specific to enneagram types is Um The idea, how does loneliness or disconnection, how and why does it show up for each Enneagram type? And I thought it'd be kind of fun just for the next couple of minutes to just walk the wheel one through nine on what your thoughts may be for each type and how, how and why they might experience loneliness. Um, And and i'll just i'll lead us off for each type and then you guys can jump in and add your additional thoughts and Even from the thought of your own enneagram type, but um, yeah Type ones I think about number one Ones have a tremendous sense of responsibility And oftentimes they speak in terms of being the only one in their families who are the responsible ones and it's very isolating for them uh because they're They're always having to do things for the sake of other people. And there's this innate inclination to take things over and to do it right or be the responsible one. I think number two, their, uh, their own inner critic and self criticism, it's like ricochets right back at them. And, um, they don't want to engage with others because of the negative false beliefs that they may have about themselves. And then I, I think one of the things is they become so principled. Uh, and hold those principles so well, it almost isolates them from other people because people don't, may not agree with them or share the same beliefs. And so it has this ice, even though they may have a principled view that's for the good of, of people, it may actually isolate them whenever someone may not agree with it. But, uh, any other thoughts about a type one and how loneliness would show up?

Todd: 19:25

Yeah, no, that's, I think that's great, Jeff. And, um, yeah, I don't consider myself an expert on the Enneagram, so I have to rely on you. But just thinking about these different types, I think in general, I would say, as you were just alluding to all the types have a shadow side, right? Right. And. And a way that we get trapped in some way, right? Like a negative cycle. And so I'm most familiar with that for my type, which is four. But, um, yeah, if there, but with the one, if there's taking responsibility and feeling like they need to, there's probably ways that that can lead to a negative cycle of disconnecting them from people in terms of how they're coming across to people, right. Where it's not. They don't intend to do that. And that's the case for most of these cycles. Right. But when they take things over, take responsibility and sometimes maybe come across as I'm the only one in the room who knows how to do this, right.

Adam: 20:18

That's right.

Todd: 20:19

That, yeah, that can alienate people and probably lead to some, some loneliness, even though in all these cases, it's a self protective mechanism, right?

Adam: 20:26

Mm-Hmm? Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. That's,

Jeff: 20:29

about it that, uh, one being disconnected from God and parents because they, in some ways, uh, many ones will believe like, I'm going to do a better job of parenting myself than you are.

Todd: 20:41

Mm

Jeff: 20:41

And uh, the idea of yielding of submission in the Bible to God, I would imagine there's a projection of who God is and uh, whether or not he's going to really help them to the same. with the same level of energy and aggressiveness that they would want to change themselves.

Todd: 20:59

Mm

Adam: 20:59

mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Yep. That's great. No, I, I, I just to, just to triple piggyback. Um, I think you, when you some something you said Todd triggered the thought of, you know, they may be, they may become, ones, may become the only person in the room that feels like I. I'm the only one that knows the right way. There's just an innate loneliness sometimes when if you, if you fall into believing you're the only one holding up the high standards or you are the standard of moral integrity. And so sometimes ones might feel isolated in their quest for perfection. Um, and they may, they may feel that others don't share their sense of responsibility or their desire for improvement. You know, why doesn't everyone else care about this as much as I do? There can, they can often feel misunderstood. And lonely with lonely with their people

Todd: 21:50

Mm hmm. Right, right.

Jeff: 21:53

well twos, uh, a few things that come to mind, they've written some notes down here. Um, unreciprocated care. I, I have been taking care of everybody else, but no one's taking care of me, which is a part of the self sabotaging cycle that they get into because it, they're resistant to being cared for. It's almost like, um, and Jesus words to Peter, like, and you know, unless I wash your feet. Um, there's this. Since to where that twos will feel lonely because no, they don't feel like anyone's addressing their needs. Uh, number two, over identifying with other people's needs, uh, to their own neglect. So they're just not aware of their own needs, nor do they feel comfortable because the fear of rejection is if I express my need, you know, that's one of the rules of a dysfunctional family is that don't have needs. And so if you fear that you're going to be rejected whenever you voice your needs. Um, then you have this very isolating, uh, dynamic in your relationships and particularly, you know, in, uh, in a spiritual setting, you would imagine like, if, uh, you know, if you're operating under the mindset that you're supposed to be continually pouring your life out as a fragrant offering, or, um, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I've served others, this idea of, uh, The strong language in the Bible about service, where my spirituality is expressed through service can be very lonely because I've, we forget these first principles that we love, we serve, we feel compassion because we first felt compassion. Uh, thoughts on, any other thoughts on twos?

Todd: 23:37

Yeah, no, that's great, Jeff. I definitely think the, um, being, yeah, maybe less aware or, or sort of pushing down their, their own needs is, is a way of coping and, and that can leave them feeling isolated. And also the first thing you said about just take taking care of others constantly and not feeling taken care of is exhausting. And I, I, yeah. And if I think it's, that's great. Fairly common for people identify as a two to have that kind of experience. And it's, yeah, it's very, very painful. And, you know, and I think, you know, we should say here too, and I'm sure you talk a lot about this, but just that there's, you know, there's a beauty and a strength to the, all these personality types and to the, to the energy and the way that they relate. But there's also, as we mentioned this. Shadow side so that, uh, yeah, we're not, we're not trying to beat up on, on these different types. We all have these, but there are ways that all of us, because of the fall, get into these self-sabotaging, as you put it. Um, yeah. Self-defeating kinds of patterns and, and for twos it is often, um, yeah. Help helping others. Right. And the whole idea of the pride for the twos right, is I, I don't have needs. Right? Like everyone else has needs. I'll be there for you, but I'm sort of above that. Of course, this is not a conscious thought process, but that that can lead to some isolation and loneliness. Yeah. When have that experience and sort of inhabit that way of being and relating to other people, then they're not going to reach out because they don't see your needs.

Adam: 25:09

Yeah.

Jeff: 25:09

Well, Adam, why don't you take, uh, types three and four and, uh, tell us what your thoughts are on why threes and fours would experience loneliness.

Adam: 25:16

Yeah, absolutely. So a type three can, can experience loneliness. so it can kind of show up in a performance pressure. Um, there, there, there can be a, a, even a disconnection from their, from themselves, you know, to threes can become a chameleon where they're sort of, you know, they can get into a shape shifting and image management with, with people and really, uh, become lonely with and for themselves even, um, uh, not just lonely with others, but like lonely for their true self. You know, sometimes, you know, there can be this exhaustion of I'm ready to stop the charade and like, Show up and be me. Of course, the fear is, will anyone love me for just being me? You know, if I take off the performer hat or the, the, the successful, the achiever hat, well, will anyone love me? Just for me being who I am, not based on what I do? Um, but I think that's, that's the innate loneliness for the three is feeling that their successes are, you know, they're valued only upon the basis of their performance or their achievement as opposed to yeah. So what, what, what, what else would you guys add to that?

Todd: 26:29

well, that's great, Adam. And yeah, I would just say, yeah, I think in terms of that, how that plays out in relationships, right? When there's this constant need to perform when the person who identifies as three is operating more in the kind of shadow side, maybe distressed, um, that again can lead to disconnection and, you know, not Not feeling connected. They may not be aware of that until there's some sort of breakdown. Right. So maybe it's, you know, uh, lack of success that they're driving for causes some of the coping mechanisms to break down. And then some of these feelings like come to the surface, but when they're just operating in that and it's, you know, I'm only relating to you in an instrumental way, right? Because I, I need to check some boxes off and get things done. Well, you know, the person on the other end of that relationship has a certain experience of, I don't feel very connected to you. I don't feel. Seen or known or like you're interested and so I'm not, you know, I'm probably not going to reciprocate. And so again, it's another way. It just leads to the breakdown of connection.

Jeff: 27:28

I remember, uh, a passage in, uh, one of Brennan Manning's books, uh, he was speaking to Jesus's words in Matthew, uh, in that day, they will say, uh, we did all these things in your name and Jesus responds with, but I never knew Like it. Yeah. There's a sense to where separating performance from our sense of identity and being vulnerable and known. And even as we're talking through these, you know, we're going to get into the idea of attachment styles. You can start to see, uh, how those ways of relating around need and being known. Uh, and being received and cherished and responded to, uh, are essential to how we show up in our relationships. And oftentimes, whenever those initial needs are not met, really some of the unhealthy sides of these types, that's where, uh, why they're showing up in unhealthy ways. These are mechanisms to try and to secure those essential needs that we missed at the beginning.

Todd: 28:27

Right, right, yeah, yeah, and I also, I often talk about those Jeff is kind of a pseudo connections, right?

Jeff: 28:35

Yeah. Oh yeah,

Todd: 28:36

they're, you know, they're, it's very understandable, and it's a way to protect ourselves. Right. Right. But it is counterproductive for relationships, healthy relationships and for our own growth. And so it leads to this kind of pseudo connection because it's layered with this, uh, attempt to protect ourselves from pain, which what that does is it cuts us off from parts of ourselves. And that's why it has a negative impact on relationships.

Adam: 29:02

Yeah. It's crazy. All those coping mechanisms were simulated connections. They always end up as counterproductive. They actually cause the pain. We're trying to avoid. Let's talk about type fours, you know, type fours. Um, and this is, uh, Todd, we'll let you speak to this because I believe

Todd: 29:21

I'm a four.

Adam: 29:21

as a type four. Yeah. Um, but, uh, let's just, let's just toss this one to you. How would you say for the four that loneliness is experienced or how, how does it show up?

Todd: 29:33

Yeah, when I was reflecting on this, just thinking about this call and one of the way, one of the things I experienced quite a bit that I think is common for fours is this feeling that I'm missing something and that, you know, being in my own lane. And operating out of my own gifts and that sort of thing is not enough. And so I think that, that can, you know, I noticed when that shadow side comes up and starts operating, that can definitely lead to some loneliness and, you know, and it's, you know, it's a filter. So I talk about attachment as filters, you know, Enneagram, these are all personality. These are filters of, um, in the sense that they filter or shape how we experience relationships and events in our lives. Right. And so it kind of. Can sometimes filter my experience to feel disconnected and lonely because of this feeling like I'm not, I'm not doing enough. People might not see me in a certain way and I'm, I'm missing something. Right. And so that's probably the, then the need to be unique, which is common for fours, right. To, to kind of gain that love from others because I'm

Jeff: 30:40

Todd, do you ever have the experience or the inclination to want to isolate from others? Almost like a self fulfilling prophecy.

Todd: 30:50

Yeah, I do think that that comes up at times. Um, it's, I think it's more of a, you know, kind of a reaction or coping mechanism, you know, if there's a sense of, you know, people, people aren't seeing me, then I'll withdraw sometimes. And then that can become a negative, you know, self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah.

Jeff: 31:11

Um, well, I'll take five and six, and then, uh, Adam, you can finish us off with seven through eight. So, fives, uh, you know, they're just as a relational style and engaging with the world, uh, their initial inclination is towards detachment, uh, but particularly intellectual detachment, which means that it's, um, detachment not only from relationships, but even detachment from emotion. Uh, in order not to be overwhelmed by the world and fear of being relationally or personally depleted by the world. And so similar to maybe the fours and isolate now, each enneagram type can isolate for different reasons. That's just kind of a human coping mechanism is isolation. But, um, it. You know, fives have an inclination to find themselves lonely, um, and particularly because they, uh, there's underlying assumption that they're, they don't want to be a problem. They don't want their needs to be a problem to other Do you guys have any other thoughts about fives?

Todd: 32:14

Yeah. I think, um, that's all. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, Jeff. It's, uh, it's this Yeah. Inclination to operate in their head in order to Yeah. Conserve energy, like you said. And, you know, and there's different subtypes as we know of the Enneagram. Sometimes it's a fear of. social incompetence, right? So as well as being drained, right? If I, if I show up and connect, um, that's going to be incredibly costly for me energy wise. And so I'm going to kind of hang back and stay in my head and, or also, or maybe a combination, right? That if I really start to engage socially, I'll be seen as socially incompetent. I'm not quite sure how to engage, how to start the conversation, how to carry the conversation, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but I can, you know, at the intellectual level, I feel very comfortable and I can, I can manage that. And so that can lead to definitely, yeah, feelings of loneliness just internally, like you said, Jeff, and, and also relationally, because, um, there's, there's a barrier there with other people.

Jeff: 33:26

Well Adam, why don't you tell us about your loneliness as a type 6. I'll put you on the spot.

Adam: 33:31

Yeah.

Jeff: 33:31

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Adam: 33:35

What, what loneliness?

Jeff: 33:37

What? Lonely? I've surrounded myself with books and people, so to overcome all of my loneliness.

Adam: 33:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a difference between difference between solitude and isolation, uh, or, or, or surrounding yourself with, uh, with, you know, um, resources that you think are going to help you cope with your anxiety, but actually only further isolate you. So that's, yeah, I think, I think I often feel isolated. I mean, anxiety is, which is the core weakness of a six. Anxiety is fundamentally isolating. Um, and I think in, in anxiety and in fear, especially if, I believe that others don't understand, Or share my concerns or share my fears. Or if I feel shamed or misunderstood around my fears or anxieties, you know, if I get this response of like, Hey, it's really not that big a deal. Or, Hey, get over it. Or, Hey, why aren't you, Hey, Hey, why don't you just trust God more? You know, it's like, Oh, you, you don't think I thought of that? Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. I'll just have more faith. All right. You know, that's, that's my problem. My problem must be, you know, intellectual that I just don't believe God is who he is, you know? It's like. I think that's a real isolating, lonely experience for sixes. And then, you know, as we've mentioned, one of the coping mechanisms then can be this, this sort of, um, exaggerated effort of seeking reassurance. And I can turn to books, resources, um, mentors, experts. Uh, you know, you name it, podcasts, whatever, to try to get some reassurance. And it, it actually only, it can really further exaggerate the loneliness. And so that's a little bit of what it, what it's like to be a six. Um,

Jeff: 35:20

You know Adam, a couple things came to mind earlier that, uh, I'd love to hear your thoughts on, and Todd's as well. Um, When I think of Isaiah 41, fear not for I am with you, and all of those commands related to do not fear, do not be anxious about anything, I find it particularly lonely. As if somehow like my The condition by which I show up to God is somehow a disappointment to him And like I I don't feel him to be near When i'm feeling it and now i've got this guilt And this also guilt that i've done something wrong, but also the shame like I don't know How to fix my anxiety because it's just so pervasive to how I engage with life um I mean, I, it's so funny. So I, I walk in the mornings and I walk several miles in the morning, but, um, I was a place cooker in college. And so I twisted my ankles a lot. Uh, when I would land on the tee, the kickoff And so I'm, I am always afraid of twisting my ankle and just being on the, in front of someone's home calling back, like, Hey, can you come pick me up? I twist my ankle while walking. Um, like I, it's just so pervasive and it's everywhere. And I'm like, Whoa. My anxiety is what brought me here, but then I'm told that my anxiety is wrong That I should recognize that God's with me But the last thing that my body realizes or think expresses is that God's with me But not a Todd. How do you how do you interpret an experience like that spiritually?

Todd: 37:00

Yeah, yeah, I think anxiety, you know, as you were saying, Adam is just inherently lonely and again, it's a filter, right? For just how you, how you experience God. And what I mean by filter too is, you know, one way I describe it sometimes is, you know, we don't see the filter we see through the filter. Right. So that's just the reality that you experience based on past experiences you've had at a gut implicit level that have been internalized. And so it is your reality. And that, that's why when people say, like you were saying, Adam, like, Oh, just, you know, you need to trust God more or whatever. That doesn't feel good. Right. Because. It's not an issue necessarily of faith. It's an issue of, you know, this is an automatic kind of experience based on past relationships. And so when anxiety is there, because there's been experiences of what, you know, abandonment or whatever it is. That's a very real experience. And that's, you know, one way to describe it is like, that's the starting point for growth. You have to be aware of where you are, you know, sort of the, you are here on the map of your soul, right. If you're going to, you know, move. So I think that's a very, you know, understandable, normal experience, Jeff. Um, you know, based, I don't know all the nuances of where that comes from, but, um, I often tell people, you know, it helps to understand those definitely, but it's important to take your experience. at face value in a certain sense, you know, in the sense that it is valid, it, there's a good emotional reason for why you have those experiences. Um, and then it's just a matter of understanding them and having new contrast experiences that then shift our, our attachment filters. So, yeah. So when you're having that experience with, with God and spiritually, wait a minute, the way I'm showing up, it isn't good enough because of what I'm reading in I think that's That's the filter operating and that's normal and understandable given your experiences. And then that's the starting point. Okay, where did this come from? How can I take a, take a step, you know, to process this and, and move in a, in a more healthy direction to have a different experience. And that's, that's not a Jeff thing, right? That's a, that's a human thing. That's all of us need to do that.

Jeff: 39:19

Um, well, let's jump to type seven. Um, you know, one of the big thoughts that I had about the seven is the idea of avoidance of suffering or being trapped in pain. And so there's a, there's a restlessness, a hunger, uh, to move towards life and new experience. Uh, I can't remember what pastor it was that said it, but he, it was a provocative comment that I've always, uh, learned. It's always. Stuck with me is, um, we admire one another for our successes, but we connect with one another in our suffering.

Todd: 39:54

Hmm.

Jeff: 39:56

And there there's so often in the life of Christ, that's portrayed in the new Testament about participating in his suffering, having fellowship with a suffering like that, that's, that's, that's. Where we connect with one another, but there's such a strong inclination to be avoidant to those things for the seven that it can feel very lonely. Um, and you even see it for some of them where they, they move from relationship to relationship. Um, And looking for the new experience, particularly if things start to get difficult, um, and that, that restlessness for life can be quite long, lonely, um, because they're, they're wanting something that maybe this world doesn't have to offer yet. Um, even children, uh, the seven, Kids will talk about growing up with parents who are always having to tell them no, and that can be very lonely. Like they were ready to experience life and do everything and anything. just talking to a seven recently who, um, wanted to keep working while doing an overseas trip and, uh, came back like, I, yeah, I, I often overestimate my capacity. That's so even like a feeling alone cause they're not overbook themselves. Do you guys have any other thoughts about sevens?

Adam: 41:14

Yeah, I could jump in and just say that one of the things that that comes to my mind with my seven friends is, you know, the only, the only place you can really do relationship is in the present. can't do relationship in the past because it's the past and you can't do relationship in the future because it hasn't happened yet. And sevens can struggle to live in the present. They're, they're, that key question that they're, they can get into asking is unconsciously is what's next. You know, uh, what's the new, what's, what's exciting, what's new, what, what experience can I gobble up? Um, you know, and they're, they sort of can get into a pattern of staying stimulated, staying, you know, entertainment seeking or adventure seeking. Um, and, uh, and of course there's a fun side to that. There's a really fun side, but that's a, that's a gift that they bring. And there's a shadow side to that. And, uh, but I think it pull, pulling themselves out of the present is lonely. There's a loneliness to that, um, to not being present.

Todd: 42:17

Yeah.

Adam: 42:18

were you going to say, Todd?

Todd: 42:19

That's a great insight, Adam. Yeah. I, I think what comes to mind for me for sevens, um, again, so operating in kind of the, the shadow side when that's coming up is. That there's a, you know, reluctance and fear to go deeper, right. Into pain, vulnerability, deeper emotions. And that's, you know, you just said that Jeff, right. That's how we connect in some ways. And so I think there's sometimes going to be an experience of, um, you know, sort of superficially bouncing around in a lot of different relationships at. You know, and not going deep. And then when someone tries to go deep or something comes up, boom, they're, they emotionally check out, they're out, they move on to the next. Thing. And again, it's a protective mechanism. It's understandable. Like all of us have these, but it's, it's counterproductive for a deeper sense of connection. Right. So there's, you know, lots of. Lots of connections at sevens, you know, I think experience, um, on a different level in terms of, you know, doing and, and having lots of irons in the fire, so to speak. Right. But when it comes to like, which really is what you were just saying, Adam, right. It's like being present in the moment with this person in front of me or people and, and being able to go a little bit deeper, I think is a struggle that can lead to a real sense of loneliness.

Adam: 43:36

Should we talk about the Type 8?

Jeff: 43:38

That sounds great. I bet they love for us to talk about them.

Adam: 43:42

I bet they

Jeff: 43:44

loneliness. They're just happy.

Adam: 43:46

That's right.

Jeff: 43:47

independent.

Adam: 43:48

That's right. That's right. That's right. And, and their independence is, uh, again, again, uh, one of the gifts that they bring, but there is a loneliness to, uh, an over, over identification with independence. You know, there is a loneliness to the fear of vulnerability. And we know, listen, all you Enneagram 8s, we know that beneath the Tough exterior is a tenderness, right? And so, um, and when you're unwilling to, and you shouldn't just share that with everybody, that would be, you know, irresponsible, uh, and could be dangerous to you, but when you're unwilling to, um, be vulnerable with, you know, You know, in a, in a, in a secure attachment with a safe person, then, then it does create a loneliness. Um, sometimes the, the big energy and, uh, directness and bravado, especially if, you know, eights are operating from not a very good place and they're kind of in that bulldozer mode. Um, there can be some conflict on there, whether it's in your family, with your spouse, on your team, uh, that conflict can create some isolation and some loneliness for the type eight. Um, but what, I'm curious what, what you guys would add to that.

Todd: 45:05

Well, just to piggyback on something you were saying, Adam, the, the, the vulnerability and. Connection beneath the surface is there. It's rich. You know, I think in some ways, it's or, you know, people who identifies it very can be very connected and they often are looking out for, um, people who can't protect themselves, right?

Adam: 45:26

Mm-Hmm.

Todd: 45:26

And people are vulnerable, probably because it's, it's mirroring some vulnerability within them that they, it taps into that. And they resonate with that. And so they want to protect that. And that's beautiful. But when it's below the surface, though, it's hard to see, right. So I think, I think that can lead to a sense of disconnection where other people, you know, don't, don't see that if they're, if they lack awareness of that and, and struggle to reveal that to people in, in some relationships, not, not all of them, obviously, like you said, Adam, then, yeah, that can lead to again, superficial kind of. Connections and relationships and a sense of loneliness.

Jeff: 46:03

I remember in, um, Oh, Sleeping at Last, uh, their song on the eight. Um, it's in the first stanza that they remember the moment that things switched. and that they believed that they were on their own. That attachment wound, um, abandonment wound that trans, gets translated and I, I'll never live in a way to be betrayed again.

Todd: 46:29

Mm hmm.

Jeff: 46:29

And that is profoundly lonely.

Todd: 46:33

Mm hmm.

Jeff: 46:34

Profoundly, that is a significant burden for a child to bear, to be their only protector, their only nurturer, their only Um, and the more that they identify with that, the more strategies and it's almost like the stronger the independence, it's the stronger the fear that's driving the independence. Well, Adam, why don't you take us into the world of the nine?

Adam: 46:59

Yeah. Yeah. Around type nine. Um, so yeah. Type nine's. I think, you know, I'm married to a nine. You know Jeff, you're married to a nine, I think type nines in my experience, can

Jeff: 47:10

My nine has me, so she's never alone.

Adam: 47:13

That's right. That's right.

Jeff: 47:14

I am so anxiously attached that, uh, she, I, she'll, she'll always know I'm there.

Adam: 47:22

You're yeah. That's awesome. Yes. Yeah. I think, you know, nines experience loneliness when they lose touch with their own desires, when they sort of fall asleep to themselves and they merge too much with others, there can be a loneliness for themselves. Even, you know, I, you see, you see this experience a lot when, you know, you know, for my

Todd: 47:45

exciting projects and, and fun things they're

Adam: 47:48

wife, who's a top nine when, when, when, when the kids. Uh, we've got all the kids in school and, you know, kids would go off to school and she would find herself in the house alone. And she'd be like, Who am I? What do I want to do? What, what do, what do, what do, what do I love? What am I good at? What's my vocational identity and calling? Like, what

Jeff: 48:10

So interesting, Adam, I, and talking about Beth's sabbatical, um, I was reminded whenever I took my sabbatical, like, Hey, don't forget to have fun. Like, sure. There's some internal work to do and some professional and career goals to kind of think through, but have fun and leisure. And she was like, What, what I, I'm supposed to know what I want

Adam: 48:31

Yeah,

Jeff: 48:31

like, I, I do what you do for fun.

Adam: 48:34

yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and what, yeah, that's exactly right. And what, what Carrie realized in that experience was how lonely for herself that she was. I mean, I'll never forget it. A mentor of ours, Jeff, that you and I both know well, uh, Rich Plast. Rich told, um. Carrie, he asked, asked her the question. Cause she did some coaching with him during this time period. And he was like, what, what's something you used to love? Let's start there. What, what, what's just a, just for Carrie, just for fun. What's something you used to love? And she thought, and she's the image of her riding a bike with the wind in her hair. And he said, how, how old are you riding this bike? And she's like, I'm probably nine or 10 And he said, Hey, why don't you go buy a bike? And she did, she went and bought like a nice bike and would drop the kids off at school on a crisp fall morning. And then just go ride around our neighborhood on her bike, you know? And it's like, guilt free just go ride your bike. She's like, I've missed this. And then what, what she's really saying is I've missed me, I've missed me. And then, and then there's also of course, the loneliness with others that can come from, from that as well. So that's, I think, The nines can be the nines

Todd: 49:47

Yeah. I agree, Adam. That's great. You know, great insight and that's been my experience working with You Nines as well as I would describe it as disconnection from themselves, because oftentimes they don't, don't know their own preferences. You kind of alluded to that, um, because they get, you know, as part of the Copa mechanism, right? It's, um, go with the flow and they're great at seeing other people's perspectives, which is a huge strength. And that can be very valuable in all kinds of contexts, including leadership, but. It sometimes can be a struggle to, like, find that foundation of, like, what do I actually want? Like you said, prefer, desire, and, and who am I? And so that can lead to, yeah, a disconnection within the self of feeling pulled in lots of different directions based on other people's preferences. And that can feel pretty lonely.

Adam: 50:42

And when you overlook yourself, you, you, when you overlook yourself, you, you, you also get overlooked or feel overlooked by others because, and so then there's this loneliness with other people too, of why don't they see me, you know, like does my presence or does my voice

Todd: 50:59

Right. Great

Jeff: 51:01

Well, Todd, uh, you know, to, to wrap this back to where we began with this is that, uh, in your book, the Connected Life, like you have a vision for what. a connected life looks like with God, with others, uh, with ourselves and with creation. Tell us, uh, what, what is your vision of a connected life?

Todd: 51:25

Yeah, I mean, I think in a, you know, in kind of a nutshell, connected life is a life in which we feel known and accepted. We've alluded to this, right? By God and by important people in our lives, right? And then we don't feel alone in our emotional pain, right? Everybody, we all have struggles. We all have emotional pain. We all have suffering, things we go through. to flourishing spiritually and otherwise really is to not feel alone in your emotional pain, to be able to have people who feel safe to process it with, and to be able to grow through that suffering and to, as I call it sometimes, suffer well, right? Which is to, um, entrust your suffering to God. and to grow through So that involves, you know, this deep internal emotional security, which comes from secure attachment, comes from these relationships that are really important that we carry in our soul that then gives us the capacity to give and receive love and to cope with life's challenges. So that would be kind of a nutshell the connected life.

Jeff: 52:32

And, and one of the interesting kind of points of need that you address, uh, in the book, and which you've actually done a little bit of research on, is the idea of attachment and attachment wounds that end up shaping or interfering with. Impacting, um, this idea of a connected life that it's, you know, that attachment is more than just having a good relationship, but we carry that even in our bodies and that impacts how we connect with others, our jobs and, uh, our, uh, and how we connect with God through our spirituality.

Todd: 53:09

Right. Right. So, yeah, these attachment relationships are so important and there's a lot of, you know, research on this. And I think we're seeing in the last, you know, five years or so, more books being written about attachment that are coming up to the sort of popular level. It's, it's, I think more in the, in our consciousness now, but the research really goes back to the 1940s is when it was originally started to be developed by John Bowlby. Who's. The founder of attachment theory. Um, and, but there's a lot of research on it now. And so we've already alluded to that there's secure attachment, which, um, involves basically a simple way to think about it as comfort and challenge. Those are the two kind of basic characteristics of attachment in the, in the literature, it's called a safe Haven and a secure base, right? So safe Haven is the comfort secure base is the ability to kind of challenge yourself and move through things and cope and explore. Um, and these, these attachment patterns are internalized and usually in place by about 12 months of age because it's all through this implicit gut level kind of, you know, memory. So there's comfort and challenge. If that, if a person has enough of those experiences with caregivers and is able to rely on them for those things, then they be, you know, they develop this internal secure attachment. But it really is the people that we rely on for those two things of, you know, comfort when we're distressed or upset and an internal sense of security to explore the world. That's how we become attached. It's the people we rely on for those two things. But as we all know that, you know, we don't always have Um, that are healthy and secure. And so when those aren't there, people develop insecure attachment patterns. And this, you know, in reality exists on a continuum. We tend to talk about these as categories, but it really exists on a continuum. But basically there's two kind of major insecure types of attachment. And there really is a third one also, but anxious attachment is one of the major ones. And so that involves. Um, really protecting oneself from expected abandonment by, um, really engaging and sometimes becoming emotionally clingy with other people. So there's, uh, sort of emotional dysregulation oftentimes, and they become overly reliant on other people and have, you know, Trouble regulating their own emotions. They tend to lack confidence. Um, and they tend to have what we might call an embedded stance toward their own experience, meaning when they get upset or distressed, they get sort of lost in that experience. It's difficult to take a step outside and process it and realize, okay, This is painful. I'm having this experience, but it's not going to last forever. There, you know, there's some reasons why this person treated me this way, you know, perspective taking and that sort of thing, it becomes a struggle. So that's anxious attachment on the other side is dismissing attachment or avoidant attachment. It's both terms are used. And that is when people. shut down their attachment system, become overly self reliant in order to cope with oftentimes experiences of rejection. And so they tend to come across as emotionally guarded and again, too, too self reliant. Um, and, um, they're sort of a pseudo confident. So on the surface, they appear You know, pretty confident, but below the surface there, it's difficult for them to be vulnerable and really, truly, you know, connect with others. And so that breaks down sometimes when there's a lot of stress and there's a disconnected stance towards their experience. So they're just not very aware of, you know, their emotions and that kind of thing. And then there's this other type fearful attachment. It's sort of a combination of anxious and, and, um, avoidance. And that's when there is. a desire to connect. So for avoiding people on a conscious level, there's not really that desire to seek people out when they're upset, right? It's like, Hey, I got this. I'll manage this myself because I'm not going to get hurt again. Right. Um, whereas anxious attachment, they move toward people like, Hey, I really need you, Jeff, to help me figure this out and cope with this. Fearful is I want that connection, but I'm afraid of it. because emotional connection has led to pain, abandonment, rejection, you know, it's been associated with pain. And so there's a lot of back and forth and sometimes self sabotaging, and it's, you know, sometimes we see a little, you know, a little more association with trauma in the background, that kind of thing. So, you know, and then back to your point, Jeff, about all of this plays out in our spiritual life because it operates automatically. Subconsciously and again filters our experience of God and so that's kind of what got me into this was my own journey and then seeing this with clients where this plays out in their relationship with God as well as in, you know, with other people in spiritual community.

Jeff: 57:57

You know, I, I remember a moment, um, there was a, I think it's Invitation to Silence and Solitude. I can't remember her last name, uh, who wrote it, but, so I was trying, uh, doing times of solitude and prayer and silence, uh, and I remember being in the room of the church and I feel like I, I was praying and trying to be as present as possible, but feeling so alone. Uh, and distant from God.

Todd: 58:32

Mm hmm.

Jeff: 58:32

At that same time, I was doing some training with Allender and it was the first time that I was introduced to attachment theory and started to realize how my own adoption and first year of life going uh, foster care, uh, to my parents could have had. impact upon my life and how I'm experiencing God in this moment. And there was both fear, like, well, am I ever going to feel close to God? And also kindness, like, Oh, this is biological. This is, I can't spiritualize my way out of this thing. I can't just go try harder and things are going to get better.

Todd: 59:13

Right.

Jeff: 59:14

and it makes sense why prayer was so difficult at times where, uh, moving towards moving away, not feeling connected, but don't liking how I'm feeling disconnected and so I want to move away and then find myself lonely and moving back. Um, was, um, It was so impactful to have this as a way of describing my experience a way of compassion, but there is a possibility of like fear, like you feel stuck in your attachment style. I mean, do, do you think attachment styles change over time and that we experience relationship in different ways? And is that what you're trying to address in the connected life?

Todd: 59:53

Yes. Yeah, definitely. They can change. It does take takes time takes basically new relational what I called earlier contrast experiences, right? So in the, you know, you may have heard the term in the psychological literature. There's this term corrective emotional experience. It goes back to, you know, some, you know, some of the early psychoanalytic

Jeff: 1:00:13

a technical psychological term, corrective emotional. Yeah.

Todd: 1:00:19

contrast experience is a little more specific that has to do with, you know, experiences and relationships that, that really, um, upend your expectation. So if there's an expectation that, okay, I'm, I'm going to be abandoned in this relationship again, right? Because that's, that's just how relationships work, or I'm not going to be seen in this relationship. And then I have an experience with someone who I feel with. Wow, this person really saw me in a deep way that violates in a positive way, my gut level expectation and, and starts to shift the internal landscape of my soul and my attachment filters in a way. So they definitely do change, but we need, we need these new experiences. They don't change directly through head knowledge or explicit knowledge. That That does, that is helpful to, you know, sort of direct our lives and figure out what kinds of experiences and conditions we need to create and be in for growth. But the direct shifts at a deep level happen through new loving relational contrast experiences.

Adam: 1:01:24

I'm going to use a technical term that makes me sound smarter than I am.

Todd: 1:01:28

Great.

Adam: 1:01:29

But since I have, since I have Dr. Hall, or as I called you before we hit record, the Todd father. this, uh, on this call, does, are you talking about neuroplasticity? Like that, like the ability of our brains to actually forge new pathways and, and healthier pathways through these corrective experiences.

Todd: 1:01:48

Yes, that definitely, definitely ties in all, all learning and development involves neuroplasticity, right? So there's a, there are Brain circuits that are processing all of our experiences, you know, including things that we, but, but definitely learning and growth and change, all of those require rewiring of our brain circuits. And so neuroplasticity is this term that, that. Speaks to the idea that our, our brains can actually change throughout our lives. And that's a new discovery in the last, you know, 40, 50 years or so that, you know, kind of the old view was, you know, once you hit about 25 or so, you know, brain, the brain circuits are pretty set and you're kind of done learning and growing, but you know, we've learned through neuroscience in the last, um. Yeah. 40, 50 years that that's not true that we, we can develop new brain circuits and grow and change throughout life. And so it really is, it really is possible. And, and there's new research on, um, memory reconsolidation in the neuroscience area. That's really fascinating. That, that speaks to this idea of these contrast experiences, um, that those contrast experiences seem to, um, unlock, you know, the brain circuits that, that process, you know, some of, some of these, Implicit painful emotions and then allow for them to be sort of re rewritten or rewired. So there's, there's some fascinating work being done in that area.

Jeff: 1:03:15

Todd, you, um, you're a part of or overseeing some research regarding Enneagram types and attachment styles. Can you just comment briefly on what you guys found?

Todd: 1:03:26

Sure. Yeah. So with my former student now, Dr. McKenzie Connor. So shout out to, to, uh, McKenzie. So this was her master's in dissertation. We worked on, um, developing a measure that of the Enneagram using brief stories. And so people write, write out a brief story, um, tapping kind of five different, you know, sort of areas that the Enneagram sort of taps, um, like a relational conflict, for example, is one of them. Um, things of that nature. And then they rate a series of items in terms of how relevant it was in that story. And so it ends up being a quantitative score. Um, so it's kind of an interesting, you know, method. We wanted to just, you know, see if this would work. I'd use this method in another assessment that I worked on. And then we were also interested in how does the, how do the Enneagrams type relate to attachment? If we can sort of include that and figure that out. And so, you know, the results showed we were able to develop scales for each of these types with some pretty good statistics in terms of. showing that these items hang together pretty well. Um, and then we correlated them, you know, that's part of how you establish validity is you correlate a measure with other similar measures that are independent. And, um, and we got some decent correlations. There's still some more work to do though, but when we looked at attachment, it is interesting. Some of them came out, um, some of the, you know, predictions, but not all of them. Um, but I can give you kind of a, you know, summary here. So type, and again, I think part of the challenge here is. It's self report, right? And as we all know, Enneagram, you know, a person's, um, the accuracy, right, of their self identification depends on their self awareness, right? So we don't really have a great way to, to measure that. Um, although we did ask people, so, you know, how sure are you of your type? So we, we have a little bit of information, but, um, so I think that's. You know, probably to a next step would be using people who really are confident, know their type, or maybe doing interviews to, you know, get at that, but what we found is a skewed for type one. I'll just go through the types of skew toward anxious attachment. So we ran correlations. with each type and then anxious attachment and avoidant attachment just as a basic, you know, kind of take on this. So type one correlated more highly with anxious attachment. It did correlate a little bit with avoidant, but a little, but a fair amount higher with anxious attachment. Um, type two, also a little bit higher with anxious attachment, um, but there was some correlation with avoidant as well. And that was a little bit closer. So interesting to think about, you know, there may be some dimensions of both in these in Enneagram types, right? And especially we didn't take subtypes into account at all. So that's that would be another layer of research. Uh, type three did not really correlate highly with with either. of anxious or avoidant, but a little bit more highly with, with anxious. Um, but, but I would say that's one where we need to kind of go back to drawing board. Um, cause the correlation was pretty low. Type four, quite a bit more strongly on the anxious side, which was the prediction. That makes sense to me. A little bit of correlation with avoidant, but definitely higher with anxious. Um, type five, Higher with avoidance, um, which is pretty significant. Um, also because I've found this in doing research on attachment over the years that, um, avoidant attachment in a self report measure tends to not correlate as much in general with other measures. I think because there's less variability, um, you know, on the measure. So people are. There's not, in other words, there's not as much of a range of scores. People tend to score in a more restricted range, and then that impacts the ability for it to correlate with other things. So we can do a whole statistics lesson on the next podcast for people who have trouble sleeping. So type six, uh, correlated quite a bit more highly with anxious attachment and not, not at all really with avoidant. That actually was the cleanest. So that's, that's pretty interesting. So you guys can speak to that if that makes sense. Um, type seven, interestingly, didn't really correlate with either type a teeny bit with anxious, but, um, really not much with either. So that, that's one where it's like, okay, we need to go back to the drawing board and kind of figure that out. Type eight. Um, a little bit more with anxious. And you can see the pattern, right? There's more, more Enneagram types, correlate more with anxiety. Um, the, the one that sticks out that correlates more with avoidance Type five so far. So type eight, a little bit more with anxious, and then likewise, type nine correlated more highly with anxious. Um,

Jeff: 1:08:14

Interesting.

Todd: 1:08:15

yeah. So,

Jeff: 1:08:17

Well, thanks for being curious about it and even, even walking down that path. I mean, I, uh, that was sort of our hypothesis that. Each type could show up in, uh, one of the three different ways, and it just would look unique to that type. But it is interesting to hear some initial research on the topic that could be helpful for people to at least have a domain to kind of look into about their attachment style. Well, one of the things, so we Enneagram types. And. capturing a vision of what a connected life would look like, uh, with God and others, and how attachment style kind of, and wounds can get in the way of that. You've translated all of this into not only a vision for what spiritual formation and human development could look like, but also a way of training others in helping to cultivate, um, through a coaching relationship,

Todd: 1:09:20

Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: 1:09:21

the connected life. So tell us about your relational spirituality coaching and the experience, like what, what exactly is that experience that you're offering to people who want to become, um, you know, experts in that

Todd: 1:09:36

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for mentioning that, Jeff. So yeah, I started this a little over a year ago and it's a, it's a cohort based training program. And so we're launching the third cohort in September coming up. So we're right in the middle

Jeff: 1:09:49

I love the web page where you said, This is not a course.

Todd: 1:09:52

yes. Yeah. So it's yeah. In a

Jeff: 1:09:56

Because like you said at the beginning, you're going to participate.

Todd: 1:09:59

right, right. It's not just a bunch of videos we throw at people. So it's a, it's a 12 week cohort model. Um, so people go through together and so we have an orientation kickoff call. On September 19th is when we kick off. And so that's the first call is really just for the cohort to get to know each other. We've already got a great group of people in the cohort registered and signed up. And then we meet every other week on zoom. So to our call on zoom. And that's a time to just really process the material. So we have six sessions, you know, one for each of six modules. And so really what I've tried to do is take, I mean, really all of my learning experience from therapy and coaching and attachment and all this and kind of distill it down into, um, the core knowledge and steps and skills for facilitating growth and change so that people can then use this in, in a coaching context, but really more broadly for, you know, mentoring and discipleship. So it's really aimed at people, Christian leaders who are involved in ministry that has. Um, typically some kind of focus on discipleship mentoring or coaching. Some, some of them are professional coaches, not all of them. Some are pastors that are really interesting. Great mix of people who, uh, beginner, you know, really involved in ministry in this way and passionate about. Discipleship and helping people change at a deep level, like we've been talking about and really see the need for this in the church. But people who are, you know, some business leaders, we've had doctors, um, physicians who are involved in, you know, various kinds of ministry, pastors, coaches, spiritual directors, some professors. Um, so, yeah, so we meet every, every two weeks and really just, um, process the material with each other and do some Q and a, and it's, it's, it's really been a blessing and a rich, A rich time. So yeah, if people are interested, they can check it out at, uh, relational spirituality. co and get all the information there. We're right in the middle of launching this. We've got the, the, actually the early bird pricing is, is available right now until August 27th. So a little bit more time for that. Um, and then. I'll be

Jeff: 1:12:02

Now you have a master class that's coming up as well. It's kind of an introduction to what the program's about.

Todd: 1:12:07

Exactly. Right. So that's coming up September 4th. Um, there's a, yeah, I'd be doing a master class, um, kind of an overview of, of the material to help people just get a sense of it. Um, then leading into the, the, uh, program starting on, on the 19th. So, yeah. So people are doing that. They can go to the website and get more information about that.

Jeff: 1:12:28

And be sure to check the show notes. We'll have a link there. So all the information that you'll need to get to, a link to the books and a link to the Relational Spirituality Program. You'll be able to find that there in the show notes. Todd, thank you so much. I mean, Adam and I can be quite jokesters and go on all kinds of tangents, but man, your presence, your style of relating, and just the thoughts that you're able to share are so significant and so meaningful. Like you, you just, um, We're so grateful. You, you calmed our hearts down.

Todd: 1:13:02

Yeah. Well, thank you, Jeff. Yeah.

Jeff: 1:13:05

grateful for your work and, uh, just Beth and I've been so grateful for you and your wife's friendship over the years and, uh, your ongoing work, uh, with the Enneagram and, um, yeah, through research. So thank you so much for being with us today.

Todd: 1:13:18

Well, you're welcome. I appreciate it, Jeff. It's been yeah, great getting to know you and Beth and you, Adam. And yeah, I really appreciate you guys having me on and having this conversation.

Adam: 1:13:27

Yeah, it's been a lot of fun, Todd, and thanks for hanging with us. And to our audience, thank you for hanging with us. Remember, as always, as we say in each episode, the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It is the gospel that transforms us. Thank you all for tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode.