Jeff: 0:00

So what's up with these lines and arrows on the Enneagram symbol? Well, that's the topic of today's podcast on your Enneagram coach, the podcast, where we have helped millions of people around the world discover and explore in order to become the person that they've always longed to be. I'm Jeff McCord, co founder and CEO of your Enneagram coach. And I'm joined today with our director of coaching, Adam Breckenridge. Thanks so much. Adam, Good to have you.

Adam: 0:27

Good to be with you.

Jeff: 0:28

Now, we're recording this the day after the uh, Chiefs Ravens game. That was a pretty exciting game.

Adam: 0:35

One by a toe, one by a toe. But, you know, as someone told me, uh, I just got off of another call and they said, Hey, I heard that, uh, there was a Taylor Swift game last night. And I said, yeah, there was. And Taylor and Taylor Swift won by a toe. So if, if you don't get the references, that's okay. You're, you still belong with us. You're in the right spot.

Jeff: 0:55

Well, for the next few episodes, we're going to be discussing the lines and the arrows of the Enneagram symbol. Now, you may have wondered if the Enneagram symbol itself has any significance or did someone simply just choose a geometrics figure? Uh, well, these lines and sometimes they're shown as arrows. They mean a lot. And not only are we going to help you to understand what they mean, but in future episodes, we're actually going to go walk through and help you to learn how to practice self coaching or leadership, uh, based upon your understanding of the two lines and arrows that actually extend from your main type. But you may have noted also that I'm using terms like lines and arrows, uh, because different logos actually have, sometimes there's just a simple line, sometimes there's an arrow. Well, the reason why that sometimes teachers use the arrows to denote or kind of communicate the there's a dynamic aspect to the Enneagram, is that these. Other numbers are actually part of us and we move towards or begin to adopt some of the strategies, the behaviors, the relational style of these other numbers. So the Enneagram is not static. Um, so we're not just one thing where a lot of different things that are happening inside of us. So Adam, once you take this a little bit further, because we've had some great conversations Particularly highlighting this idea, but through the idea of the movie inside out, which has been very popular these days, and we've been, we've already watched inside out twice now. But, uh, why don't you tell us a little bit more about some of your thoughts?

Adam: 2:32

Yeah. I think if you want a great illustration of what it looks like, that our personality is not dynamic, but it's static. As you said, I think you see it in a movie inside out. I mean, we're, we're huge fans. I have three daughters. Um, we we've, we've, we've watched the original, you know, the, the first inside out several times, we went to the movies to see in the theaters inside out too, and absolutely loved it. you know, each of the, each of the four. Numbers is like each of the characteristics and inside out. Think of them like your internal family or what works for me is sometimes thinking about them like, you know, my internal team. And I hear you use that language a lot, Jeff, for yourself. You know, you have team meetings with your, with these parts of yourself,

Jeff: 3:14

active, who's trying to lead the team, and who's trying to quarterback.

Adam: 3:18

Exactly. And in the movie, Inside Out, each character represents an emotion and, you know, for theatrical purposes, each character has its own personality as well. And they have, they have their own responses, they have their own core motivations, which means they have their own fears, desires, weaknesses, and longings. then each type is fighting over the control board. That's the thing. You have Riley, the main character in the and all these inner. Parts of Riley, that's these personified emotions that are parts of her. They're all trying to take over the control board out of their own interest. And the same is true about each of the Enneagram connecting types. Although, you know, they don't represent an emotion. They do represent a personality and they have their own responses. They have their own core motivations, fears, desires, weaknesses, and longings. And each of them is trying to take control out of their own interests. Another way I would say that is. they're trying to help you. They're not just control freaks, but they're, they're trying to drive and steer you in the, in the direction that they feel like is best for you in any given moment and situation. So specifically in this episode, we're going to be talking about the two numbers connected by the lines or sometimes arrows. And each of the two Enneagram types that we are connected to by, by a line can show up You know, in a healthy way or an unhealthy And so, you know, I want you to remember this cause this is really important. It's like, we don't become those types. So it's not like, you know, as a six, I don't become a three or a nine. Um, cause that's, those are the two numbers I'm connected to by the lines or arrows, but we do take on the core motivations and the relational strategies of those types to meet our Um, I just got out of a conversation, Jeff, where we were talking about how the human brain, which is a mosaic of parts. And you and I've talked about this on this podcast before, but the human brain is designed to do two things. Basically, if you want to be reductionistic, it's like, it's trying to help us connect and protect, you know, it's designed to connect and protect. I feel like that's one way of looking at these, these two lines, these two other numbers can show up in healthy or unhealthy ways based on how they're trying to do that for you. How are they trying to with their strategies? Right. And their core motivations that they're bringing to the table. They're trying to help you connect and

Jeff: 5:48

Right.

Adam: 5:50

fascinating.

Jeff: 5:50

we're going to come back to this, uh, illustration because there's some scenes in the movie that give us, even highlight even further, the dynamic parts, uh, of our personality, particularly through the lens of the Enneagram, uh, because it, no one character in the movie just serves kind of one purpose. They end up. Mm beginning to understand that the healthiest version of all of Riley's internal family or team, um, actually, whenever they're all contributing is when they're at their healthiest. So we're going to come back to that because one of the important things to understand about these lines is that. The basic way of understanding the lines and the arrows is that most Enneagram teachers will start with what's called the stress path or the growth path. The stress path is adopting the unhealthy, uh, attributes of the body. of that other type. Now the growth path is adapting the healthier attributes of that. You don't become that type, but you start to embrace some of the strategies, whether healthy or unhealthy attributes of that other So when each type is under stress, they tend to take on some of the average to unhealthy of the connecting type. Um, that the arrow points to now on the opposite side, when a person is operating from a healthier self, they begin to relax and let go of their personalities constraints, and they move towards the healthier levels of the connecting type while when, when they're actually growing. So Adam, as a type six, we're connected to both the three and the nine, so as a type six. How do you notice the stress path and the growth path showing up for you?

Adam: 7:40

Yes. So as a type six, the stress path is, is that six is move toward the average to unhealthy type I want to keep beating that drum of we don't become type threes, but we do gravitate over those arrows, show us moving over, gravitating over to borrow from, you know, some of the unhealthy attributes And we see that showing up. And so for me. It usually looks like, um, doubling down on performance and work. You know, I can become as a type six with my sense of duty and responsibility and then borrowing from the drivenness, uh, of, of the, you know, and the unhealthy side of the type three is driven as I can become a workaholic, um, in Crete, which creates an increased anxiety for me. Um, and it's really, it's a, it's a part of me that wants to help me by, you know, protect me by overworking, doing more. Um, there's, it's kind of this, this unhealthy type three part shows up at almost like an inner driver. That's, that's, it's It pushes me to do better, try harder, do more, excel, you know, and I can also notice, you know, shame and comparison. Like there's a, comparison driven nature to this thing where I can really start to look around me and see. And I'm measuring up, you know, where am I on the invisible ladder compared to everybody else in my behind them or ahead of them? There's a fear of failure that gets really ramped up, you know, sixes battle with fear and thoughts of you know Fearful thoughts and so I can see I can notice when this type showing up when those fearful, anxious thoughts were around failing and looking like a failure, being being exposed as a failure. Um, and so that's kind of, that's kind of the stress. That's sort of the stress path. Now the growth path for a type six is the healthy side of nine. And so, man, I would say this part of me shows up and brings like a, an objective, it kind of cuts through the noise of the inner committee and brings sort of an object, a heavy dose of objective reality. Um, it's, it gives me a gift of slowing down, stilling my anxious thoughts, quieting my anxious thoughts. It brings up, there's a peace that comes to my anxiety. Um, and you know, again, like it helps me think more objectively instead of getting caught up in that whirlwind of my, inner committee. So I love the strength of that gift. And we'll talk about the strength of the type three in a minute. So it's not like the three only brings it's it's unhelpful, unhelpful strategies, but in the stress path, it's the, uh, unhealthy type three strategies. And in the growth path, it happens to be the healthy type nine strategies. So I, you know, I know you're a six as well, Jeff. So what about you? How do you see this stress and growth

Jeff: 10:43

one of the funny things is, um, so, you know, in our book, More Than Your Number, um, we've been working with a particular, therapeutic modality called internal family And, um, Years ago, whenever we first started learning about it, um, I started naming, uh, all of my parts. And so, uh, when I think about the three part of my heart, uh, I, his name is Charlie. Um, he, uh, it's after a friend who I dearly love and appreciate. But I, I can remember one time, um, we were, uh, He was our real estate agent and he was helping us sell our home and, uh, we were, uh, preparing our home and he had hired a contractor to help stage our house. And, and so as he was kind of networking and talking with that person, um, I felt like we kind of lost the tension and, but I noticed that about myself, that in certain I'm always trying to win people. And I do that through a number of different ways. One of the funny ways that that shows up in my life, um, is, uh, for Halloween, I go all out for the neighbors. We don't have young kids anymore. Our kids are older, but, uh, we serve cotton candy. We serve. Popcorn, we get toys like little rubber duckies. I've even bought a big screen so I could show kind of a movie in the background. Um, I've got a fairly large sound, a Sonos sound system. So I bring that outside to play music. And, uh, it, I, I just, I notice in myself, I'm trying to win my neighbors

Adam: 12:17

hmm.

Jeff: 12:18

and which is a very three aspect cause there's, there's behind that is, uh, do they actually like me, do they? Do they respect And so I get caught up into the image. So that's, that's the three part of my heart. And he brings gifts as well. And so we'll talk about that. Like you mentioned that it's not just an either or, it's a both Um, the other part, the stress path, um, well, that was the stress path, but the growth path to nine, I call, uh, my nine part, I call him Phil. And I got that from the idea from Dan Allen, who talks about how we address our longings as people. We try to fill. numb or blind ourselves to our longings and And so oftentimes, um, you know, Phil in one sense tries to numb himself, but in another sense, Phil is the one who reminds me that my presence matters. Now, the core, Motivation for nine is to the fear that their presence doesn't matter. I've noticed that as a six, I am anxiously trying to insert my presence into the lie, into situations, trying to fix things or prove my loyalty. And I remember a certain season where, uh, as a pastor and I was usually the number two guy, kind of the executive pastor type role where my, my position was important. And I was involved in a lot of things. And I just recognized that I could go into a meeting without trying to make my presence felt I, I was enough as I was. And Phil was a part of me that could just remain quiet and listen and only needing to show up whenever I absolutely needed to show up for our And so Phil was a an assured, calming, uh, non anxious presence versus the kind of six anxious, I'm going to kind of get big or get anxious or feel like I need to contribute to kind of save the situation. So that's, those are two ways that it shows up. Phil and Charlie, they're big parts of my team and uh, they, yeah, I often experience them showing up in my life I, I'm sure you probably feel, feel both Charlie and Phil showing up in my leadership of our team of the YEC team, right?

Adam: 14:31

No comment. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I

Jeff: 14:38

Hey, Jeff, I wish Phil would show up a little more often up.

Adam: 14:44

no, no, I will. So to, to, to honor you in all seriousness, I've told you many times that I notice one of the things I really value about your and have and friendship is there is a calm, it's funny. Cause you may not. You may not feel this inside, but that's usually the way it is with sixes. It's like other people experience experience you as, you know, people say this to me all the time. Like if I've, if I, when I've, I've been in preaching teaching or like, I hate to use this term, but like front stage leadership roles my whole life. Whereas I feel like I belong backstage and that's where I feel more comfortable. I don't feel comfortable as comfortable on a stage, you know, leading in those contexts, but everybody's always said, what? You seem so natural and calm. And I'm like, well, that's not how I feel, you know, inside. But I, I think it's that nine gift, you know, that shows up and brings a manifestation of objectivity, calm, peace. And I would, I would definitely say that's the, that's the overarching

Jeff: 15:46

would say for, for me, it's interesting to say that cause I, I have learned to practice, uh, silence and solitude and it's. It's really the feel, the feel part of my heart that, uh, that gives me the strength and gifts necessary in order to look into the flywheel and to be patient enough for the flywheel of my thoughts and my anxieties to calm down.

Adam: 16:11

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeff: 16:14

Well, there's actually two other parts as well and that oftentimes gets missed and maybe it's because it's more complicated and it's not as experienced as often, but there, these two concepts are really, really helpful. And we're going to illustrate this with Inside Out 2 and, uh, cause they do both of these, I think do show up in the movie, but, um, these two are, so we have the growth path and the stress path. And we also have something called the blind spot. And the converging path. Now, let's talk about the blind spot first. So when a person is around those who are the most, who they're most comfortable with, like family members or very, very close they may display the unhealthy characteristics of their blind spot path. So in, for the sixes and nines, what that means is that it's the nine part of them that shows up as the growth path. Can also, we can show the unhealthy attributes of and that's called the blind spot Now, the people typically don't see these characteristics in themselves, which is why it's called the blind And they avoid acting out these characteristics with everyday people, but unknowingly will use them whenever they're around their closest family members or their closest The converging path is that the healthiest expressions of who we are as people. And after making progress on our growth path, a person can reach the healthiest point of their type, which is where the healthiest, all of their healthiest types, all of the connecting types come together. And here they have access to the best qualities of their main type, their growth path, and the healthiest attributes of their stress type. So, rather than just the six, the three, which may be a stress path, actually we start to adapt some of the healthier behaviors and the healthier interest of the type And we call that the converging type. I had him try to illustrate this with Inside Out because it, this, you start to see how the movie is so dynamic and how it relates to the Enneagram, um, and how we can show up in all of these healthy and unhealthy

Adam: 18:20

Oh, it's so good. And any Graham enthusiast and, and IFS nerds and practitioners love inside out because it, it really does illustrate what's going on, you know, inside, inside a human being. So you remember how each type tries to lead Riley reactively, like they're all reacting. They're, they're all trying to take over the control board and they're, they're only thinking from their perspective, trying to protect. Riley or help her respond to life situations. Again, they're trying to help her connect and protect. Um, let's think about that as the stress path. You know, uh, uh, when, when each type is trying to lead Riley, when she, when she needs them, they're, they're less reactive, think of that as the growth path. Uh, what isn't captured in the movie, which would be, you know, what would have made us look like geniuses is the, is the blind spot. You know, um, we, we might get a glimpse into this and inside out to when they show Riley first experiencing puberty, she's going through, you know, I think she's like in middle school. She's moving to a new school. It's a really, you know, anxious, tumultuous time. Anxiety plays a huge role in the

Jeff: 19:35

Well, I remember how, you know, whenever she's talking to her mom and talking to her dad and she's very reactive

Adam: 19:40

Oh,

Jeff: 19:41

She would never be that reactive with her coaches or her peers, but just showing how it shows up in private or with her closest relationships may be a sense to where it's kind of a blind spot path. I don't want to take the illustration too far, but it could could be a

Adam: 19:58

it. kind of feels that way though. It's like, cause you're, like you said, like her, she knows not to show up that way with a teacher or she's not going to show up that way with her peer group. She doesn't want to lose her place with but she feels secure with mom and dad so she can push harder, swing harder. You know, uh, and test the strength of the attachment. And she ultimately knows like I can rage here. I can, you know, I can say things, I can show a side of myself and it, it does kind of fit with that blind spot path. Lastly, you know, in both movies, you see this, this incredible journey of joy and sadness, learning to befriend one another, um, and work together and become integrated and an inside out to joy and anxiety. Uh, as I mentioned, anxiety is a huge part of Riley and a main character in the film, played by the wonderful Maya Hawk, uh, to all you stranger things, fans out there. Um, but they come together. And as a matter of fact, many of the parts come together, integrating with one another. And this would be the converging path that you see illustrated in Inside Out 2. So. Let's move from imagination to real life. And let's Jeff, let's talk about some examples from our own lives. And we can start with you. How do you notice, you know, you've talked about stress and growth How do you notice the blind spot and the converging paths showing up for you?

Jeff: 21:21

Well the blind spot for me, well, let's go back to phil So phil can be assured of his presence not feeling like he needs to press in the world but phil Man, he can eat some taco bell

Adam: 21:34

Run for the border.

Jeff: 21:36

all of my dissociative behaviors to try to numb the Endless flywheel of my mind. Like Phil is right there to come online to help me to do that. Now that could be watching a Netflix series. Um, uh, that could be, uh, food for me. There are a number of different ways, but movies and TV are typically in food or two big ones of how Phil can come on. And a lot of people don't see that about me. Uh, matter of fact, uh, I usually don't eat Taco Bell with other people. Um, it's, like this private adults. I almost feel like a little kid again. Uh, and Taco Bell meant a lot in my story. Uh, whenever, uh, I was growing up, my mom was ill. My dad would, well, sometimes my mom would go a lot of times to go in the hospital. And so my dad would, uh, take me out for dinner and I would eat a lot. And so. One of the cheap places to go is Taco Bell. So that's always been kind of a, a nurturing, uh, low place for me to go to.

Adam: 22:38

Yeah.

Jeff: 22:38

So running to the border was comforting to Jeff running to the border. It's always but on the other side, on the converging side. So this is where this. Charlie part of me, um, comes alive. So rather than reacting to life and wanting to kind of back away in anxiety, Charlie's the one who really inspires me. That's more goal oriented and action oriented. Um, it moves me through the anxiety to make decisions now, not the anxious way of making a decision just to get through it, but to be purposeful, to be intentional, uh, to be efficient and planned. I think. transitioning from ministry into, um, entrepreneurial ship and helping Beth to create your Enneagram That's where a large part of that came online. Uh, the woo, the, you think of strength finders, woo is a big, one of my top five. Uh, Charlie is the one that carries woo. And, uh, to be able to, Bring together a team to bring together all of the different contractors and consultants and coaches to become what your Enneagram coach was. That was, Charlie was playing a big role in my How do these two things show for you, Adam?

Adam: 23:50

Well, can I just connect with you first on your Taco Bell story? Cause you, you, you and I have discovered in our, in our friendship journey that there's so many things that overlap. Like we both use our, our

Jeff: 24:00

I love that. We have a friendship journey.

Adam: 24:03

we do. We do.

Jeff: 24:04

Okay.

Adam: 24:06

We do. And, and, and I like where it's going, but you know, what's funny is we, you know, our wedding anniversary is the same. Our couple type combo with our spouse is the same. We're both merit six is married to nines. Um, we, you know, uh, our, your parents, Enneagram types and my parents, Enneagram types are the same. We both use our high school football number for our iPhone passcode. Uh, there's so many things, but you know, I also had. And I would say unhealthy attachments, Taco Bell. And one of the

Jeff: 24:38

Well, hold on, hold on. Did I say it was unhealthy? I just said I had

Adam: 24:42

I'm saying I'm saying mine was, and this is,

Jeff: 24:45

Well, that's fine. If it was for you, sure.

Adam: 24:48

well, let me tell you.

Jeff: 24:51

I remember one time I was in the drive thru line. Beth had gone to St. Louis, I think. And, uh, it was when iPhone finder first came out and she screenshotted me in the line. I'm like, no, I'm not, I don't know what you're talking about.

Adam: 25:05

You got

Jeff: 25:05

like you're in the drive thru line.

Adam: 25:06

You look, yeah. It looks like you're sitting in Taco Bell. Yeah. I'm about to

Jeff: 25:10

I'm lonely, Beth.

Adam: 25:11

yeah, I'm lonely. And what I need is, uh, some of this Diablo you know what I'm saying? On like a chill on like a chili cheese burrito or three, three meat and cheese burrito or whatever. So, but here's, here's the, my embarrassing story that I'll tell everybody who's is one time when Carrie and I were trying to buy a house in Kansas city. Uh, I actually made a decision on what house we were going to buy based on how close it was to Taco Bell. And my rule of thumb was it can't be more than two miles. I was like, honey,

Jeff: 26:00

I don't know if that's a setting on Zillow now. the nearest

Adam: 26:06

the nearest

Jeff: 26:09

Homes for sale within two miles of Taco Bell.

Adam: 26:12

I was like, if it's more than two miles, it's going to be way too Cause we would make a run for the border all the time. I mean, back then the value menu was we could both for 6, eat And be stuffed, you know? So it's like, it was, just what we did, what we had to

Jeff: 26:25

they're all sophisticated man. Yeah, they're trying to the

Adam: 26:30

of them, some of them serve alcohol and stuff. It's like, yeah, all

Jeff: 26:33

Are you serious?

Adam: 26:35

Yes, absolutely.

Jeff: 26:36

not know this

Adam: 26:37

Yeah. Look it up, Okay.

Jeff: 26:41

I mean that just speaks to the blind spot path for you But what about the converging?

Adam: 26:47

Yeah, it is my blind spot path. Yeah. I think blind spot path. I can be a little more checked out, a little more comfort. Seeking a little more, a little more numbing, uh, type, you know, type behaviors is how it usually shows up. Um, converging for me, you know, the type six moves toward the healthy side of three. And kind of like you said, it gives me with, there's a, just a strong, overwhelming sense of self confidence. I really feel like I'm at my best self. It's when I, it's when I have landed at trusting myself and the self doubt gets very quiet, the imposter syndrome sort of melts away and I kind of emerge and I noticed that, you know, And I'm able to humbly, I'm able to stand and deliver. I'm able to steward a big moment. You know, this is things that threes, threes just live there, you know? And I feel like when this part, part of my heart shows up, it gives me the ability to strive for excellence without over identifying with it. You know, uh, there's, there's a sense of, I can compete in a way that brings out the best in me and, and really stand and own a moment, um, being my best self. You know?

Jeff: 28:00

Oh, and I noticed that about you and with our team. I mean, there, uh, in this most recent season, you've stepped up in a way that, uh, just kind of kindly, um, but with strength, uh, with courage, uh, kind of stepped into the gap, uh, and helped us with this new season. So, um, I certainly see that part of you. Have you named these parts?

Adam: 28:21

Thanks, man. Thank you for that. Um, you know, I haven't, um, and I really, uh, maybe we should do it live right here right now. Um, no, I, I, uh,

Jeff: 28:33

Well, naming is important in the Bible, so you got to think of something significant. I wouldn't want to put you on the and here's why I name my parts is that it readily helps me to identify them, particularly when I talk about team meetings in the morning. So it could be where it's on my morning walk. It could in the shower, what, just the moment that I have and I just start. going through the various parts of my Enneagram and, ask what, what are the things that I'm thinking about, what I'm worried about, concerned about, what am I inclined to do, am I inclined to want to check out today, uh, am I interested in reading, uh, whereas What am I working on right now? And these having names helps me to more readily identify these parts so that I'm not Just kind of leaving them ambiguous out there

Adam: 29:19

Yep. Totally agree. I'll work on that.

Jeff: 29:23

Well a few summary points, uh before we end today's episode, but a couple of a few things number one um, these were connected to These two types in a very dynamic way. We don't become these but these lines and arrows speak to the dynamic reality of the Enneagram is that we start to take on some of the motivation and strategies of these other types in order to have our needs met. Now we do that in both healthy. and unhealthy ways. So it's not just a stress and growth path, uh, but we actually do both, uh, both and the good and the bad, the healthy and the unhealthy. And so we added on to this, the blind spot path, which is where around our close relationships, whether it be family or friends and the converging fat path, whenever we're at our Now, remember we don't become these types, but if you do take an assessment, sometimes you may overly identify with those types and think they're, so sometimes you use sort of. Triangulate, uh, what your main type is by just looking at, well, is that a place that I go to whenever I'm healthy? Is that a place that I go to when I'm And then, um, yeah, it's just a fun way to think about inside out that actually gives us, uh, examples of what all of this looks like in action, uh, but in, uh, in a fun way, in an imaginary way. So, uh, thanks, uh, Adam, for contributing that. I thought it was a very helpful illustration.

Adam: 30:40

Yeah. So

Jeff: 30:41

Well, thanks, Adam. Thanks again for joining us for our discussion about the lines and arrows. And if you found this helpful, be sure to like, and subscribe, uh, however you're listening to this podcast. And don't forget to ask us your questions. Adam and I will be checking, uh, on YouTube as well as on, uh, social media. If you guys have any questions about lines and arrows, we're happy to answer those questions. Uh, so reach out to us in comments, or you can actually, uh, email us your questions. Uh, at info at your Enneagram coach. com. Uh, we'll be available there as well to be able to respond to your questions. Well, if you'd like to know more about your lines and arrows, be sure to check out our book, More Than Your Number. The last half of the book, our specific details getting into each of the numbers and how these, uh, different ways that These parts show up in our lives, both in healthy and unhealthy Very practical on self coaching tools and self observation questions that you can ask yourself so that you can identify when the things are showing up and kind of realign yourself with a path that you want to So be sure to check that out. And thanks again for joining us, Adam. It's always a joy to be with you. Thanks so much for today. And we look forward to seeing you in our upcoming episodes where we're going to go. Through, uh, all the numbers and all of the different lines and arrows for each of the as well as all four paths that they go down. Thanks so much for joining us. Everyone.