Beth: 0:00

Hey, everyone. Welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast. I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagram coach. And today I am so excited that I get to be back into the podcast booth for just one interview. Um, as a lot of, you know, I'm on sabbatical and you'll get to hear a lot of what that sabbatical has been like for me in this interview and what is actually going on. Why am I taking a break? I think it's healthy for everyone to take a break from time to time. Um, But you'll hear that a lot of my childhood, um, uh, wounds, uh, kind of has, have definitely caught up to me more than I realized. And the coping strategies that I have formed over, you know, gosh, I'm almost 50. So over five decades have been more revealed to me than ever in God's graciousness. And he's helping me to unpack them one day at a time to have more deep and true healing. Um, it's not easy work, but it is really, really good work. And so I thank you guys so much for your patience as I've stepped away for a season and allowed, um, Adam Breckenridge and my husband, Jeff McCord to step into the podcast booth and guide you guys along the way. They're loving it. And I hope that you are too. Well, today, The reason I'm stepping back into the podcast booth is because I'm going to interview Chuck DeGrowth, who is an author, um, a professor, a counselor, and so many other things, a pastor, because he has written a new book that's coming out on October 2nd. And I'll hold it up here so that those that are on the YouTube, uh, watching this, you can see it, Healing What's Within. Now I love the subtitle of Healing What's Within is coming home to yourself and to God when you're wounded, weary, and wandering. This just came at such a timely time. moment for me. Um, I have had the privilege of getting an advanced reader copy because as you heard, it comes out October 8th. Um, and it literally could not have come to me at a better time. It came right as I started my sabbatical. And it has helped me to understand in a more full way the things that I Um, the struggles, the hurts, the pains that I had growing up that I didn't even know or realize because I really had, you know, for all intents and purposes, what people would see is this really happy, loving family. But there were a thousand little paper cuts along the way that I didn't realize were Impacting my everyday life, my thought processes, my coping styles in a way that was actually hindering and sabotaging my personal life and my relationships and my work life. Not so much in as big overt ways as maybe for some, but for me in little ways that added up over five decades and, uh, in July, I got shingles. And I'm pretty young to get shingles. And so it was my body's way of saying, hello, I really need you to go within to focus and to heal. And so that's why I've taken this time to do my own inner work, even on a deeper level, obviously I've done a lot of inner work over the years, but I think God reveals to us bits and pieces graciously, instead of one full swoop. Now, of course. I would rather learn and get over it and go on with my life, but God has us going about it one step at a time, because that's what we can handle. And he's gracious in doing that. So part of that, my healing path has been Chuck's book, Healing What's Within. And so today you're going to get a fuller glimpse of what that book is about, why he wrote it and how it has impacted me and my personal story. So let me just tell you again, Chuck DeGroat is not only a personal friend, but he is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, where he also serves as the founding executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program. Now he's also a licensed therapist, spiritual director. author, as you can see, um, a retreat leader, speaker, and faculty member with the Soul Care Institute. Now, as a therapist, he specializes in navigating issues of abuse and trauma, pastoral and leadership health, and doubt and dark nights of the soul that we all journey through. And so he trains clergy in handling these issues of abuse and trauma, uh, conducts pastor and conduct. Um, church planter assessments, and then he facilitates church consultations in investigations of abuse that have happened. So before we transition into this timeframe, I just want you to know that Chuck is also going to reveal part of his story, which is really in this book and it's beautifully laid out, um, of his time, um, getting wounded, um, in a church hurt church. Um, firing that he experienced, but then also his journey through healing, um, along the way. Now he is married to his wife, Sarah, and they have two beautiful adult daughters. And without further ado, let me get into my time that I absolutely loved with Chuck DeGroat. Okay. So Chuck, your book could not have come at a better time for me. I mean, it's literally the perfect timing because right now I'm actually in sabbatical, as you know, and I'm sure some of our listeners know. Um, and, um, It has helped me to understand and speak to what's going on with me, which is healing what's in, within. Uh, so what I've been learning, uh, so far and how you beautifully unpack things is that the pain we carry is not just about what happened to us, but what happened within us after our trauma or heartache. Um, And it's about the disconnection that forms within us and how we often choose to cope in isolation. So as just people in general, we're trying to navigate life. We tend to suppress our emotions. We're ignoring our core needs, our, pain. Um, we try to help with these unhelpful coping styles that we have. And when we don't address the root, which is disconnection, our relationships with ourselves, others, and God begin to unrode. And this is all in kind of your introduction. So this, this disconnection can then turn into trauma. Because as you explain, um, that It's what is ignored or misunderstood that actually causes the suffering. So what I would love, um, you know, or actually what I love about your approach is how you take us back to the beginning and Genesis in the story. And what you do is you remind us. That God has already laid out a path for healing and instead of, you know, being left to cope alone, God lovingly meets us in our pain and shame, asking three specific questions. And these questions, you know, are asked with compassion and curiosity, which you also talk about how we usually think the opposite, he's coming at us with a stern fist, but that we get to listen. And to hear him in a whole new way and to abide in his care. So I. would love, you know, just for us to kind of see that as a full picture, that God is not angry, but he's actually that empathetic witness that we need to walk with us in our suffering. And as you write, that trauma is not what happens to us, but what we hold inside, with the absence of an empathetic witness. And so God being that infinite, kind, empathetic witness. He, as you describe our, he's asking us to reconnect with him so that we can heal our deepest wounds. So before we dive into the three parts of the book, which are the three questions, um, which the first is God asks Adam and Eve, where are you? And then the second, who told you? And then the third, um, have you eaten from the tree? I'd love to start by asking. Okay. So what inspired you to write this book and what was the journey that influenced why you wrote this book?

Chuck: 8:48

Yeah. Yeah. First of all, you just articulated that so much better than I do. So can, can we, can we do this together from now on?

Beth: 8:58

I would love to, I, I, I seriously, if you saw my book and how much it's under, like if people don't go get this book, like right now, like stop the recording and go get it. You're missing out.

Chuck: 9:09

well, I mean, you know, a little bit of my story, but, uh, I was fired by a church in 2003 after serving for six years and it was really painful and it felt like, uh, an injustice. And when those kinds of things happen, you know, it's not just days or weeks, it's months and years where you, you think about it, you stew, you simmer, you think about ways of getting the justice that you, that you want. Um, About all the people who didn't step up and say something on your behalf, all the things, you know, and I, uh, I In the really in the months and years after that happened. Um, I, I was a therapist so I should have known better. That's my caveat, but I put my head down and charged ahead and at tremendous cost to my body and soul. What's, what's fascinating is in those years after I did some writing. That I think turned out to be halfway decent. My first book, I think, is a good book. I think I led good retreats and guided people into good places in their lives, but all the while kind of ignoring what was simmering within me. Um, and now I was going to therapy and I was talking about my story, so to speak, but I was missing. the, that traumatic impact that you just hinted at, right? I was missing what was simmering within and the dysregulation within me, a nervous system out of whack, so to speak, to put it in lay person's terms. Right. And so I, I landed in a hospital in Mexico in 2012. Um, my body just essentially started to give out longer story to that. That's what really shifted me to attend in a new way. To what was happening within it's not to say you ignore what happened to you not at all but we do have to Shift our attention at some point to that traumatic imprint within

Beth: 11:10

yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the reason why this was. I have been blessed to get an advanced reader copy. And so I know that it's not even out yet. Um, uh, and so it's coming out in october right.

Chuck: 11:25

Yeah. october 8th. Yeah

Beth: 11:26

Okay. Um, that's what I was going to say that, but I was like, Oh, I don't want to say the wrong date. Um, but literally it's been so beneficial because, um, I have lived with, uh, You know, inner trauma from childhood, and like you said, it's like a thousand little paper cuts, you know, along the way that it's just hard to see that, you know, Oh, that's what happened to me and that's why I have this distorted thinking and, and you, you know, and I, I've coped well, you know, I, I, I've learned a ton. I've grown, I've known there's something wrong. It's like God has just unveiled bits and pieces over time that I could handle in that moment, like his disgraciousness. Um, because like you said, I'm an Enneagram coach. I, of course I know I people, please. Of course. Um, I know I knew a lot and, and healed from certain things, but I took the sabbatical because I could see there were so much more within that needed to be healed and my story, similar to your story this summer, I got shingles. And I'd already felt just burnt out and, you know, like I was just showing me like, Hey, you really have got to stop and go inward. And the last straw was my body, you know, at such a young age going, Hello.

Chuck: 12:46

Yes.

Beth: 12:48

you know, to, in his, you know, his graciousness to really wake me up and those around me that, oh, I'm actually suffering more than I realized because it was a thousand paper cuts versus some major huge trauma that is noticeable. So anyway, for me, this has just been such a helpful book. Well, um, so right now, you know, in the sabbatical season, I'm focusing on those wounds that came from my childhood experience. But what I've noticed is that it shapes such distorted thinking and. And it has impacted my relationships in work. Now your book, especially on chapter or part one, helped me to really see how disconnected I have been, not just from others, but really from my own heart and actually what's true, like reality. And I didn't even realize how much fear, shame, and unresolved grief I have experienced. What I was having and what was really driving the distorted thinking, which kept me isolated. Now, when I say isolated, and I know that you would say this too, I mean, Yes part, part of it as a nine. Yep. I'm going to withdraw and I'm going to isolate, but it was more an isolation of not being fully honest with myself and others of the pain that was within, which fueled. My coping strategies and so like many I found myself, you know, just using these strategies to avoid pain You know the things that I was using were going along, you know to get along focusing on others to avoid conflict You know all the nine Enneagram types have their own little flavor of

Chuck: 14:32

Yeah.

Beth: 14:33

But instead of finding that connection the joy that I was trying to get through those strategies I actually felt more isolated and so I relate to the longing that you talk about in Eden that like you long to go back to eat. Like there's something there. And mine was, I just want peace and harmony and connection and everyone to be happy. Um, Um, but I couldn't find it. And so your experience that you talk about in the first part of the book about driving across the Golden Gate Bridge with the fog and you heard God's gentle whisper, where are you? The, well, that really stuck with me and it reminded me, you know, of God's, that God's question is not one that is of condemnation, but it is a loving invitation to reconnect with him and ourselves. So. Can you kind of, you know, just Walk us through and talk us through that question of where are you as an invitation to pay actually attention to the ways we've strayed these coping strategies and distorted thinking, because I would love to hear. I think so many of us think that God is, again, coming with sternness and harshness, but how it's actually loving and so we get to courageously confront these patterns because we know that we are deeply loved and cherished. So unpack that first question. Where are you?

Chuck: 16:00

Yeah. God is actually walking in the garden in the cool of the day, which is to say, you know, in the late afternoon, probably early evening when the sun was going down, think of, you don't want to take a walk in the Middle East, you know, at noon. And, you know, the hint in the text is that this is when God and Adam and Eve would have taken their walks together. And now God is walking, uh, calling out, where are you? Like, this is. This is the time we go on walks together. I missed you, uh, which to me is, is such a, a, a question of kindness and, and that word where, by the way, um, uh, someone came to me, uh, after, and I don't think this made the book, but someone came to me after a conference that I led on this and said, do you know that that word where in the Hebrew is the first word of the book of lamentations? And it's a word of heartbreak. It's a, uh, A word of lament, a word of longing, right? And so at the very beginning, God's heart is breaking for us because God misses us and that where are you, uh, recognizes that we have strayed east of Eden, far from God. On on one level, and I think for me, it became an important question to ask myself, uh, every morning, multiple times throughout the day, because the reality is, is almost immediately after I wake up, I'm east of Eden. I am off to the races. My mind starts going. I'm already thinking about my day and what there is to do, or I'm thinking about some news story or some sports story or something, so I'm on my phone checking those stories out, and I've strayed far from myself. And like you, we're helpers. We engage people, we produce things that we hope will be helpful to people, and we can be inattentive to our own needs. in the process. That's why we take sabbaticals. I'll take mine next fall. And, and so, uh, where are you helps you to sort of retune to listen to the kind whisper of God. I miss you come back. And for me, there's a certain grounding that begins to take place when I, When I hear that question, like, okay, I can come back into my body. Now I can be present to what's going on inside of me. Uh, yesterday I I've been speaking over the weekend in Chattanooga and, uh, came home and I felt really good on Monday. And then I woke up yesterday and I felt like I get. My window of tolerance was really small and I had a full day and I knew in asking that question that I had to make some choices yesterday to, uh, just to sort of take care of myself. Um, and I did throughout the day. Step back from a couple of different things and disappointed a couple of people in the process, but needed to do that.

Beth: 18:55

Yeah. man, that is so good. And, you know, I think the, the question, where are you? What I love how you paint also in the book is how we've grown up, I would say in our probably Western Christian culture that, um, everything is supposed to be rosy and great. And when it's not. Um, you know, God is angry with us and I love that picture that you have and I feel like that's such a key element to beginning the process to go within because if we don't have, if we don't know that we belong to him because of what he's done for us, then we can't fully understand that he is that empathetic witness. Can you talk about the empathetic witness and trauma?

Chuck: 19:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I begin with this quote from Gabor Mate, who's become quite popular. retired physician who's written a lot on trauma, uh, where he says something to the effect is trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens inside in the absence of an empathetic or compassionate witness. And that really struck me the first time I came across that, that idea, um, that, that somehow that stress and overwhelm grows, uh, when we're alone. And, uh, that's become such an important piece. for me personally, because, uh, the reality is, is after my firing in 2003, I put my head down and, and not only did I not let people in, um, surprisingly, people just didn't ask. They saw me as the kind of person, maybe, Some people see you like this, the kind of person who's supposed to be put together, that's supposed to take care of others. And, um, because I, uh, did do what I needed to do to kind of make a living in the months and years after, people even called me resilient. Um, by the way, that's not what resilience is. Resilience is not try harder. Resilience is not dogged determination. Um, and so I needed to begin to let people into what was going on within me. And I think the kindness of Genesis chapter three is that's where God begins. Like God is right there with you, uh, in, in a way that, um, offers you kindness and compassion and curiosity. Now I say that out loud and I recognize that some people aren't there and their wounds actually came in the context of a church or, Um, in the presence of a pastor and it's like, don't eat, like, I don't want to go there. And what I'd say is, uh, then don't go there. Uh, but I've sat with people over the course of time. There are stories that I, I tell of, of sitting with people who couldn't go there. But after two or three years of my compassionate presence, there was a sense of, I remember one, you know, One woman saying to me, you know, that, that old benediction that I remember from church, may the Lord make his face to shine upon you. I think I'm beginning to believe it because your face has shined upon me over these last three years. Right. And so it's connection, it's presence that begins to, um, to, to offer us the possibility of reunion with ourselves, with one another and with God.

Beth: 22:13

Yeah. So moving into part two of the book, um, where, you know, we, we talk about who told you, you know? Um, and again, like, I mean, I just naturally, when I, when I hear these questions, I literally kind of cringe like, Oh, he's mad at me. You know, like, like it's just the way we've kind of been brought up and also just like our natural human ways of thinking and just sort of. thinking. So, um, but you ask us to pay attention to these voices, this distorted thinking, these coping strategies that we've adopted throughout the years. Um, and thinking that they're protecting us all along, but really instead they're creating this isolation and even more pain with fear right with it. So, um, what really struck with me is how you described trauma, um, you know, as Um, not, not being seen or known by God yet fully seen and know, but that he fully sees and knows us. So he invites us to be friend, the painful parts within us. Oh, that's so hard. And I loved in the book, how you talk about, it's a great way of, you know, of thinking about it. Cause you talk about saying hello to these parts of us that are in pain, like our wounded child and such. Um, and I'd love for you to explain like what that means and how people, um, can greet these kinds of hidden parts that are within us with this compassion, this kindness in a whole new way. So like, what does say hello

Chuck: 23:49

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's, that's a chapter that, uh, that I integrated the movie Inside Out into before I knew that there was going to be an Inside Out 2 that came up. So, I guess it was timely. Um, I wish I would have known about the second movie, but it's, uh, you know, if you've seen the movie or movies, Um, you, you know that there's a lot more going on you than meets the eye, right? And I often say that you don't have a story, you have stories, plural. Um, and there's, there's stories within you that parts of you hold that, um, are important to pay attention to. And that often begins in the present moment. Oftentimes when we talk about our stories, we talk about it in the abstract, about the things that happen to us. And we can be very disconnected as we do that. But it can begin by simply paying attention. So, you know, for instance, yesterday I told you I woke up, I was in, at the smaller window of tolerance and I, I'm at home today, but I often go to, uh, the seminary where I teach, uh, to go to work. And I walked in and there was a big event happening and I felt almost immediately, I felt my social anxiety just skyrocket. And, uh, Uh, there's there's one of those things that people might not think about folks like you or me that there are these things that happen within us or that we get anxiety in these particular kinds of ways. Well, I knew that I had to make a choice to, uh, go down to my office and sort of hibernate for a little bit. Um, and it was an important choice. Um, it was kind of disappointing perhaps to people who, uh, expected to see me at this particular event. Uh, but what I did was I went into my office and this gets at that saying hello piece. I realized that, uh, I was feeling some, some shame, some insecurity. And as I. As I paid attention, as I sort of greeted that emotion within me that was welling up and I could feel it in my, my chest and my throat, my face, um, it was almost as if I felt myself back at my, my, it was probably five or six years old at a birthday party where all the kids were looking at me and singing happy birthday, which for some kids would be like, Yay. I'm in the spotlight. And for me, it was my, maybe my first ever panic attack. And, um, there I was in that space in my office, not up at the event that Parts of me felt like I should have been at, but down in my office, attending to what was happening within paying attention to this voice. Now there's another voice that popped up and said, you should be upstairs right now. Um, what, what a disappointment, you know, you should be better than this. You should be over this. You started this journey when you were 27 and you're 54 now. And you,

Beth: 26:41

Right.

Chuck: 26:42

and I, I said, hello, I said, wow, you're, you're angry this morning. Can we talk? And so now I had two parts of me that I was sort of, uh, talking to, you know, and that, for people who are listening right now, um, they might think Chuck is schizophrenic, like what's happening here right now, what, who has Beth invited onto the podcast, but, uh, it's simply a matter of beginning to pay attention to those voices within those parts of us that have a story to tell. Um, have an emotion that they want to share with us. Something's going on within. that we often ignore.

Beth: 27:20

Yeah. And it's, as you said, that the first thing that came up to me is, can we, as, uh, the beloved child, the, the true self, can we be that empathetic witness to those parts of us? Is that kind of

Chuck: 27:36

Yeah. I think, I think that's right. And I think, uh, what's beautiful about that is, is that, um, you know, when we are connected in, um, most deeply, right? Like when we feel grounded, when we feel it, as I talk about in the book at home in ourselves, uh, we discover that God is right there with us because God has taken up residence. within by the spirit, right? And so the spirit is bearing witness. We're bearing witness. Um, I, uh, I tell the story in there, this whole idea of saying hello comes from a, uh, poet and a theologian named Padre Gotuama. And he, he, uh, he says, you know, hello in Aramaic is Shalom. It's peace be with you. And so in a sense, Uh, I can hear Jesus whispering within peace, be with you to that loud inner critic who says, no, you should be upstairs right now. You should push through this. Uh, he was loud for a lot of years of my life. You know, I say peace, be with you. It's okay. Thank you for reminding me of my responsibilities. And I'll take that into consideration. It's sort of like if you have kids, you know, and your kids are sitting around the table and you know, the one kid is kind of shy and pulling away and the other kid is yelling and angry and judgmental and it's like, peace be with you. And you're talking to this one kid a little differently than you're talking to this other kid. You know, we, uh, we offer a word of peace and that word of peace is, uh, a word that Jesus offers from within too.

Beth: 29:04

Yeah. And as you were talking about that and the whole inside out, and I know like you said, you didn't write this book even knowing Inside Out 2 was coming and what that would even entail, but just being that empathetic witness, um, even for ourselves, these parts that are hurting, um, like I was watching the movie, sorry, spoiler alert, you know, for anyone that hasn't seen it, maybe fast forward. You know, I'm watching the movie and it, you know, it's just so beautiful and so stirring. But I hadn't like cried yet, you know, but I was just sitting there and as anxiety, uh, flew out of her own storm, she looked at Joy and just said, I was just trying to help and And I lost it and I'm like in the theater and I'm trying so hard not to ugly cry, not because the ugly crying is bad, but you know, everyone else is trying to enjoy the movie, you know, and I could have just been sobbing loudly. And it, there's a part of me that is saying I've, I'm trying really hard and I'm, I'm trying to. And to prevent the pain that we've had in the past now. And I can see that my ways aren't actually helping us and I'm sorry. And I've tried. And then I get to be the empathetic witness and, and love that part of me. Like you have tried really hard and I'm so thankful for the work you have done on my behalf, but it isn't helping us. And so we need a new way and that's really what this. Um, sabbatical season, you know, is all about is, is diving into those distorted thinking, coping strategies, which really gets us into, and man, there's so much in each of these parts that I would love to unpack with you, but we're going to get into part three because this gets into, did you eat from the tree? And once again, when I hear that, I first hear it with a sense, a tinge of wrath or anger instead of. Hey, did you eat from the tree? And the chapter I kind of want to focus on just, and all of part three, but was the chapter on addiction, um, and grace, which was chapter seven. Now addiction and grace, you know, was part three. particularly eye opening for me. And it helped me to see that addiction isn't just these big, obvious things that we associate with, you know, like substances and behaviors that are destroying our lives and others, but that all of us experience on a deeper level, this longing for union and connection and communion and belonging. And so what really struck with me is how you described. That we often believe the lie that we can somehow satisfy this longing we have of union and communion in our own terms. And you beautifully use Jeremiah 2, 13 where it says we have dug our own cisterns, broken cisterns, which are like vases or cups or a well, broken cisterns that can't hold water. But Right. next to us the whole time is the spring of living water. God's full, loving, providing presence that's within us. And so what I've recognized for me is like, have you eaten from the tree? As you kind of worded it in, um, the, the chapter is, um, a chemical cocktail. So my chemical cocktail, so what, what gives me, uh, dopamine or all the other things that make you feel good, or at least what we think feels good in the moment, is people pleasing, right. As a type nine. Okay. If I just make everyone happy, if I don't disrupt the waters, if I just keep to myself, then we're good. Um, I'll feel at ease and I'll feel like I belong. And as you highlight, these strategies don't work and they keep us actually isolated and we need Connection. the, like you said, the antithesis to addiction is

Chuck: 33:05

Connection. Yeah.

Beth: 33:06

And so unpack for us what this means. Have you eaten from the tree? Hmm.

Chuck: 33:13

It's, uh, you and I live the same life apparently because I've heard, heard these questions as angry and, and, um, and dismissive. And, you know, this third question was the toughest one for me. And I remember leading a retreat a number of years ago, asking God, what, what are you getting at there? You know, because the first two are open ended questions. And then this third one is like a yes, no, you know, yeah. And what I heard was, where have you taken your hunger and thirst? Um, how have you been coping? And each of us can answer that, um, in some way or another. Um, I think I, I tell this story in there, um, real quick. Uh, I often say my favorite 16th century Saint is St. Teresa of Avila. Um, that surprises people because they'll think John Calvin or Martin Luther or someone like that. But, um, this incredible woman who lived in, in Spain. A mystic who wrote the interior castle. And, um, she tells the story of walking along one day and the Spanish countryside and seeing these Roman aqueducts that would carry water. That was the way of getting the water you needed back in the day. And by then these aqueducts were out of date by the 16th century, they were no longer being used. They were these marvels of engineering that didn't work anymore. And she saw her life in that image. Um, I had erected these aqueducts that I thought would give me. what I needed, and they couldn't possibly do that. And that's when she discovered that Jesus was the spring of living water, offering her everything she needed. Sort of like the father says to the older brother, you were always with me and everything I have is yours, right? Um, addiction is our way of trying to solve a problem. Um, that isn't in some ways, even really a problem if Jesus is already the spring of living water within us, right? But it's a way of coping, and it began in the garden with Adam and Eve grasping from the tree, um, in the midst of their own big question. serpent who slithers up to them and says, Did God really say in the midst of their own sense of maybe we're missing something? Maybe God's holding out on us. Maybe God isn't really good. We have those very same questions, and we attempt to meet our own needs in all kinds of different ways. And we, as you sort of rightly point to, we talk about the big addictions often. Um, but there are the smaller ones. And what I often say is what, um, where do you go for soothing? You know, how, how do you cope? Where, uh, where does your energy go? Um, I, I told the story last weekend when I was speaking of like years ago, I was watching the show that everyone else in America was watching and, uh, was on HBO max. And, uh, I, I got ready for the show one late one night and, uh, You know, had my drink in my popcorn or whatever I had, you know, how you get anticipate these things, right? Whether it's a show or a ball game or whatever it might be, and an error code came up and, you know, like I was personally incensed that, um, you know, that HBO max would do this to me. I was, Personally, deeply offended, you know, and I went online and I saw that other people had taken offense to, but you know, when that error code went away, my nervous system soothed and I realized, oh, well, there it is, you know, it may not be some big, bad addiction, you know, that we talked about, but it's something that I'm taking my heart to. Now, I didn't stop watching the show, but it's an invitation to pay attention to To our various ways of soothing our various selves, you know, and, and, uh, an invitation by God to come back, uh, to the source, the living water. Yeah,

Beth: 36:56

yeah, And, and the reason why I love you using that verse, which is so impactful for me is Jeff and I use Jeremiah 2. 13 all the time in our teaching because the Enneagram is Um, isn't the tool, obviously God's word is the tool, but what the Enneagram does is it's kind of like a map, a cheat sheet, a guide, you know, to understanding our particular ways a little bit quicker so that we can unpack, um, our story with clear, more clarity and understanding. Um, because we all, and we talk about all nine types have four core motivations. We have a core fear, what we're running away from, a core desire, what like, Oh, if I just get this life will be perfect. We have a core weakness. Other teachers call it the passion or the deadly sin, and that's tripping us up all the time. And then we have a core longing, a message our heart longs to hear and experience. And we talk about how we are constantly. Trying to satisfy this core

Chuck: 37:55

yeah,

Beth: 37:56

through our relationships, our work, you know, status, image, um, you know, addictions, like everything is focusing on this core longing and each of the nine types have a purpose. Um, and so there's this one particular core longing. Obviously we all have lots of longings, but there's this one that really is at the forefront. And so, you know, we're, we're sitting there, you know, in life and we've got the spring next to us, but kind of ignore it, right? Like, you know, yeah, I don't know. And we kind of turn and we forget that it's even there, it's right there. And we start digging cistrons and think of it like, A pool, you know, like you, you actually, it's really funny, Jeff, growing up in Dallas, him and his friend were so hot one day, they thought they could dig a pool in the backyard. And so they attempted, attempted this. And so, you know, they may have gotten like four feet by four feet, let's

Chuck: 38:49

brilliant. Wow.

Beth: 38:51

three inches, five inches deep, who knows? And it's like, okay, so let's just pour water into it. Let's go for it. Uh, We all know what happens, right? It just dissipates. And so what happens with our core longing, you know, my core longing is to hear. Your presence matters to like know that I have significance belonging you as a type one. It's to hear you are good Type twos. I'll just go ahead go around because everyone's gonna be like what's mine? Type twos is to hear that your needs are not a problem type three is that you are I'm sorry Type 2 is, it's not that, even though that's close to it, is you are loved and wanted. Type 3 is you are loved and wanted for simply being you. It's not about status, um, it's about just being you. Type 4 is you are loved and wanted, uh, just for who you are, special and unique and known. And then type 5, your needs are not a problem. Type 6, you are safe and secure. Type 7 is you will be taken care of. And type eights is you will not be betrayed and type nine, just one more time, uh, your presence matters. And so we're constantly digging cisterns because we've forgotten forsaken the spring of living water. And it's like, Oh, like for me, Oh, well, if I just make this person happy, or if I just keep this relationship at peace, if I just this, this, this, and this, then I'll be okay when actuality Christ has already satisfied our core longing. And that's where we get to turn to the spring and just drink it up fully. And so can you kind of paint a picture of the, kind of the end of the book, kind of wrapping it up, you talk about a holy hunger. Can you just kind of let us get a glimpse of what that's like?

Chuck: 40:43

Yeah. I, uh, again, you, you just articulated it really beautifully and, um, I love that you can sort of go around the Enneagram and name some of those core longings. And I suspect listeners are like, yeah. Um, I, I think that, and by the way, I'm a four. So, um,

Beth: 41:04

that's so fun. Did you, did you, I knew that. Did you at one time way

Chuck: 41:09

Oh, I did. Yeah. I, yeah. Um,

Beth: 41:12

I'm really good at remembering what people say their type is for some reason. That's just like,

Chuck: 41:17

this. The very short story is I, I was, I became acquainted with the Enneagram in the late nineties and I started as a four and that's where I immediately sort of identified myself, but someone who is a supposed expert in the Enneagram typed me as a one back in 2008 and I, I sort of tried that on for size for about four or five years. And.

Beth: 41:38

Okay.

Chuck: 41:38

said this isn't it. Um, and I found my way back to.

Beth: 41:42

I, you know, cause in my mind I was going back and forth cause I think I knew that story, but okay. So anyway, so type four, you are seen in love for exactly who you are special and unique is your core longing.

Chuck: 41:54

Yeah. And when you said that just now, like, and I can feel it, I tears come up, like, like, that's just, they're there right now. And, um, there's such a hunger for that love, you know, that of course is connected to my own story and, uh, some of, some of my own, uh, death by a thousand cuts, as we talked about a little earlier, you know, some of the. Early attachment and relational misses. Um, but I think what's so beautiful is that what I what I do, you know, this, uh, that question, that third question, um, anticipates the question that Jesus asks more than any other in the gospels. And that's a question of. What do you long for? What are you hungry for? What are you thirsty for? What do you want? And I think that's so beautiful that, here again, Jesus, uh, just, just as God shows up in Genesis chapter 3, Jesus doesn't show up with condemnation, doesn't show up with a closed ended question, you know, but with this open ended, what do you most deeply hunger for? What are you most deeply thirst for? And the reality is, is that, You know, as we were just talking about those, those temporary cells just don't do it for you. And if you've ever been addicted, whether it's something, you know, the really big sins that the church identifies or, or the things that you're sort of just kind of wondering, I wonder, you know, there's two or three glasses of wine every night or that show that, you know, that I, I just don't stop, whatever it might be. Um, as we begin to identify these things and ask what our hearts most. deeply long for. That's where people begin to experience a greater expansiveness because addiction constricts. And you know, no, no one's really satisfied with those ways of coping. But as you begin to connect to your deepest desires, and this is where your work is so helpful in pointing people to those, you know, unique longings of, of the Enneagram types. I can say Okay, I need, I need to be loved. I need to belong. I need to be known. Um, I need to live with a certain authenticity. Those are really core to who I am. And absent that, my life is going to feel really constricted, you know? And so how do I get those core longings met? Um, how do, how does that inform my way of praying, you know? And, and, um, how does that change my way of going about my day? And so I'm To go back to the beginning. We may start our day with, where are you? And notice that we're already being pulled out to see, you know, and we can return and the reality is God is right there smiling with open arms waiting for the reunion and that's the good news.

Beth: 44:42

Yeah, And, and you paint in the, in that chapter, the picture of the prodigal son, and you already mentioned the older son, like I, you know, you've had everything here, but then the prodigal son, he's running to him and lavishes him with love versus the condemnation and shame that we all think we're like, quote unquote, do. And I. He. He. I just love that. And so I think from an Enneagram perspective as an Enneagram coach, my, my hope in using the Enneagram and teaching it is so that people can use the Enneagram As a signpost. And that's what you talk about. Our addictions are signposts and not a signpost so that you condemn yourself, not a signpost that you have more fear and shame, a signpost that you're not currently experiencing and knowing the unconditional love, forgiveness, and the freedom that we have in Christ. And so what it does is it Like the question, where are you? It helps us to go, Oh, wait, I turned away from the spring of living water. And I went and I started digging cisterns to, to what I think is going to fill me, which is fulfill my core longing. And, but those haven't worked. And God is asking me that question lovingly to get me to turn back to the spring of living water. And when I, when I, you know, look back, I'm like, Oh, wow. It's already been satisfied. Like as a type nine, my presence matters so much that the God of the universe left his throne to be born as a human being, live this vulnerable life perfectly. Then to be betrayed, died and rise again, to bring me back into relationship with him. I don't know a better way of saying your presence matters than that. And I, when I attune. To that, um, how crisis satisfied me, my whole being is filled up like, like, you know, just drinking as much as I need from the spring of living water. And so like for you, you know, it'd be turning and going. Wow, the God of the universe knows me so well that he's the one that knitted and created me. I am unique. I am special. I do matter in this beautiful, loving way of connectedness and belonging. And when, so when we're able to know our core longing is satisfied, that, that is the beginning of transformation within. That is the beginning of letting go of addictions. And again, it can be anything, big or small. And the addiction itself isn't the thing that we have to focus in on, it is the striving to have the connection and the belonging, which we already have. It's

Chuck: 47:32

It's already

Beth: 47:33

to get in, me trying to get into this room I'm already in, like, oh, I'm already here, I already have it. And so I just really want to, you know, again, thank you for. Vulnerably, um, and authentically writing a book about your own story of pain and heartache, but also the story of going through the process of grieving, through the process of your own addictions to get it right. to work harder. Um. But also how God lovingly has pursued you and what That's been like to come to this place right. now, which you and I both know, as we're, as we go along this, people don't think we've arrived. Like, that's why I'm on sabbatical. Like, Oh, I have more to work on. Like, it is a lifelong process. But again, the good news is that our core longing has been satisfied. Um, what, what would be the last thing that you would love for people to know or grasp with your book?

Chuck: 48:33

You know, I, uh, I really, uh, obviously there is information that I think will be helpful and I think is transformational, but I, I really do want people to walk away feeling. Invited to a reunion, to a homecoming, um, with God. And if, if that's all, if they forget some of the concepts and stuff like that, if they know that they, they, the party has been thrown for them and God is just waiting with open arms. That that's pretty good news to me.

Beth: 49:03

Yeah. Cause like it all just kind of go around the, the wheel. We call it, we're going around the wheel one more time, how Christ has satisfied you. And I hope that each of the types can listen like as this is the spring of living water that you can drink from. So for the type ones, you are good because he was perfect on your behalf. The type two, you are loved and wanted again, so much so that he died and rose again for you to bring you to him to pursue you. Type threes. Uh, you are loved for simply being you. It's not about your accomplishments. In fact, he accomplished everything on your behalf and gave it to you. And then for you as a type four, we talked about you are seen and known for exactly who you are, special and unique. You were knitted together in your mother's womb. He knows you way more than you know you and has full connection and you belong to him. The type fives are your needs are not a problem. Type fives feel like their needs are just too much. But we've got the God of the universe, your needs, not only are not a problem, it's a delight for him to be the good shepherd, to provide and love you. The type six is you are safe and secure. And yes, we all know that day to day, we don't know what's going to happen, but ultimately we are safe and secure and his love, his forgiveness and what he has accomplished for us, which is amazing. Absolute security within him. The type sevens, you will be taken care of. Type sevens just can't, they just, I can't rely on anyone to fulfill this insatiable desire inside. Well, we've got the spring of living water. You can have as much as you want and absolutely be fulfilled. And then the type seven or type eights, you will not be betrayed. He was the most betrayed, and so he understands what that's like, therefore he will never forsake or betray you, but he is there to protect you. And then for us nines, like I talked about, your presence matters. He went to the nth degree to bring you back into relationship. So I hope that as we wrap up this, that you guys will go get Chuck's book, healing what's within, and I love the subtitle coming home to yourself and to God, when you are wounded, weary, and wandering, I can attest to this, that my book is fully written up, underlined like crazy. I think I went through like two pens actually. Um, and so please go get this book, begin your own journey of healing. Discovering the wounds that are within, but that he is calling you back home. Hey, Chuck, where can people find you? Find the book? When's it coming out again?

Chuck: 51:35

Pretty, pretty simple. It's at Chuck DeGroat across the different social media sites. Uh, chuckdegroat. net online. And the book is, uh, you can pre order the book at, at my website and get, um, if this comes out before October 8th, a little. Bonus, um, course on spiritual abuse. But, um, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope people find their way to it and thank you, my friend. It's so good. It's always so good being with you.

Beth: 52:03

Yeah. Well, thank, thank you. Seriously. Thank you. And I know you and I will have many conversations in the future on, you know, what God is doing in and through us, but really appreciate you. And I know you've got a busy full life right now, so we're going to let you head on to the next thing on your to do list, whether being a professor, launching the book, a new counseling program, man, you, thank you so much for the work that you

Chuck: 52:25

Thanks, Beth.

Beth: 52:26

Well, friend, I hope that you enjoyed I really highly recommend this book. It is literally for everyone with big T traumas to little t traumas to traumas that were happened once to traumas that were little paper cuts, a thousand little paper cuts along the way like me. And so I highly recommend this book to you. Um, don't delay, go get your book, um, go to chuckdegroat, uh, com, net, uh, go find his material. Hopefully you can get it before it launches on October 8th to get that special, uh, free bonus course that he mentioned. Friends, once again for your time, your patience, your thoughts, your prayers, as I unpack my own story. Um, it's been beautiful and really, really hard. Um, I think over time you'll see that it will reap benefits for myself and for you as well. So keep me in your prayers. Enjoy Jeff and Adam as they continue with the podcast and I will see you hopefully soon.