Adam: 0:00

What is anxiety? How does it impact each Enneagram type? And what are some ways that each type can respond to anxiety and navigate it with more clarity? Welcome to your Enneagram coach, the podcast, where we have helped millions of people around the world to discover, explore, and become the person that you have always longed to be. My name is Adam Breckenridge. I'm the director of coaching, and I am joined by my friend and fearless co founder and Jeff McCord. Jeff, welcome.

Jeff: 0:34

Hey, you know, it's interesting you use the word fearless. Well, I'm sensitive to the topic talking about anxiety.

Adam: 0:40

Yeah, I use it on purpose. You don't have any anxiety, right?

Jeff: 0:43

No, no, no. I dealt with that a long time ago.

Adam: 0:47

I've dealt with that. I put that in its place.

Jeff: 0:50

right. Uh, no role in my You know, I wonder, there's a fun phrase that I'm often use, uh, that I've learned in the recovery world. But I first heard it from a long timer from, he was AA, he said, Hey Jeff, if you're, if it's not messy, you're not doing it right. And you know, when I think about doing any kind of personal development work that if you're not scared, you're probably not doing it right. And so I'm not sure the goal is to be fearless. There, there's a certain sense to where if we're. If we're engaging in new terrain in our hearts, there, there ought to be fear because there's opposition there. Um, there's, there's unknowns, uh, in that land. to actually venture towards it, be really, really scary.

Adam: 1:39

Yep. Yep. And, and, and, and, you know, not to get too far off topic cause fear and anxiety are kissing cousins. Right. But, uh, but our fear gives us a gift. I think it might've been ship Dodd who said, if I. if I'm going to, I'm going to go to war, uh, I want to go to war with people who are afraid. Um,

Jeff: 2:00

You don't want idiots who are just like no fear whatsoever and

Adam: 2:04

Yeah, I mean, that's right. the fear is going to cause you to be careful. It's going to cause you out for yourself and your, and those around you and protect those around you. So, yeah, I think if you're not doing it scared, you're not doing And, um, You know, what we're talking about in these episodes is, um, you know, a relative to fear, which is anxiety. And we're talking about how each Enneagram type experiences anxiety. And just to briefly define it, as we did in the last episode, anxiety can be a little. elusive and difficult to pin down and define what exactly our best stab at this would be anxiety is a common human emotional experience that can manifest, you know, mentally, it can manifest in physiological responses, but it's a common human experience. Sometimes there is situational anxiety. Which everyone faces. This is work, bills, parenting, conflict, life, relationships. And then there's also a chronic anxiety. Think of this as more like anxiety disorders that can, um, that can really kind of hinder our ability to cope or function with everyday life. But I want to come back to the basic. understanding of this is a common human emotional experience that everyone, including every Enneagram type, uh, experiences. And so what we're going to do in this episode is talk about how each type experiences anxiety. How does it show up? What are the trail heads, you know, of anxiety for each type? And I think, you know, Jeff, we're going to do this in triads. So, um, do you want to kick us off with the gut triad and talk about eights, nines, and ones, and maybe what are some of the common anxiety activators and what are the trail heads or how does anxiety show up for those types?

Jeff: 3:55

well, one of the phrases that we use, we use the term core motivations a lot here at Unigram Coach. And the number one is the core fear. But as we talked a little bit in the last episode, you could just change out fear with anxiety. There's a core angst in the soul of each of all the different NIME types that really is the key activator that that's what sort of triggers it turns on the anxiety and all the other relational style characteristics of each Enneagram type. So let's just take a look at type one for a second. So the the The core fear is being wrong, bad or corruptible. And so, uh, they're going to be activated when there's this, there's imperfections. Um, there's criticism, there's unmet high standards. If people aren't taking responsibility, uh, people aren't following the rules, whether that be the, for themselves or that, whether that be for others, right? Because each of the subtypes kind of, they're, they're different. That inner critic is fighting so what this can look like at times is that for the one is that they're feeling stressed, that something's out of order or incorrect. So there's a, unwarranted focus. an obsessiveness about being right. Um, when you hear about, uh, it, it's the resentment that the ones are continuously caring when people aren't living up to expectations or doing the things that they want to do now, that's going to be hard for the one to recognize, or maybe they'll recognize the resentment, but they won't recognize the real anger that's behind all of that. And they certainly wouldn't want to say that they're actually Um, you know, whenever, you know, the one as a child, their anxiety shows up by taking responsibility in areas where they felt like their parents weren't. And so responsibility can be a trailhead a type one, specifically whenever they're experiencing anxiety. what comes to mind for you when you think of type ones and how anxiety shows up for them?

Adam: 6:07

I think initially because we're in an election season. Uh, for type ones can, can fall into a bit black and white thinking right or wrong, good or bad. And so an opposing viewpoint. Can, can be a real activator, you know, can, can be something that really causes anxiety to get triggered. There can, you know, and for a type one, you know, you're operating in anxiety. If you have, um, a small window of tolerance for a different viewpoint. You know, um, and if, if you're falling into the black and white thinking, um, you know, and, and then again, just kind of like you mentioned, the, the, the classic example is, uh, just mistakes, not being able to embrace the gift of their own imperfections. Um, seeing the imperfections in themselves and the inner critic really exaggerating the anxiety of, you need to fix this, you need to reform this, You need to get better, you know, better than this. Um, those moralistic inner critics. Uh, really amp up and exaggerate the anxiety. Um, and

Jeff: 7:11

Adam, it that makes me realize that, you know, perhaps with the type ones, and be sure to put in the comments and let, let's support one another in this there's a great phrase that, uh, a mentor from a distance that both Adam and I have Steve Cuss, who's written a lot about anxiety. Um, he's got, uh, the expectation gap I think now and also managing leadership anxiety, which is, um. Leadership is a broad term for him. That's for anybody in relationship. Really? It's not just in organizations he says you have to name it to tame it And what we're trying to do is to help you to name things and so if you're a type one Or any type as we're going through this, why don't you try to name where your anxiety is coming from and how it shows up? Cause it's not just showing up front and center. You may call it something else. And so you may be learning something, but let's just help one another out to learn how to name what's together, particularly for do. But you know, it makes me think of when, For the type six, it's the racing thoughts. It's the flywheel of thoughts that go through a mind that is an easy indicator of anxiety. But what you just described for the type one, it's the inner critic. If your inner critic is out of control, that's anxiety.

Adam: 8:32

yep. Anxiety.

Jeff: 8:33

That is your way of trying to handle fear in your

Adam: 8:36

Yeah.

Jeff: 8:37

to make things right. And it's going to get, it's, it's hyper focused. It's hypercritical. Um, it's just, disproportionate. To what is Well, why don't we move on? So the goal here in this particular episode is that we're going to be naming it now in the next episode We're going to be talking about well what to do whenever you start to find your own heart at at unrest it disorganized the Oh, it spun out as a term that Beth and I use, uh, whenever we feel a little disorganized or, uh, feel like we're not on our best game. But let's talk about the Type 8s. Now, Type 1s and Type 8s seem to often always have their composure and, um, are, uh, Maybe a little less influenced by other people. And we think, oh man, they, they're never anxious. They always know what to do. Um, and they're, they always think that they're doing something right. They always think they're doing it the right way. Right. But you know, for the, A, their, their core anxiety, say, is being controlled or harmed, being powerless. And the disproportionate response to that is always be in power and don't be vulnerable. Be impenetrable by other people and relationships. Now whether that be cultural, where they try fiercely to live the independent life. But to the degree that you are trying to be independent impenetrable, unharmable, there's anxiety that's fueling all that. And you know it's anxiety too because you know what happens for a lot of twos and a lot of eights is that eventually their bodies catch up with them and they start to experience sickness because they can't manage life. You're not intended. You're human being with limitations. You're a human being with boundaries and you can't carry it all and so there'll be all kinds of other little sideways behaviors and thoughts and Behaviors that'll try to help you to cope with the pressure that you have put on yourself to not be harmed I was about to say Andrew. I don't know why I was going to I don't even know an Andrew. I was thinking maybe there's an Andrew who's an eight. I don't know. Adam, what comes to mind for you when you think of the type

Adam: 11:10

well, first of all, anytime someone calls me by the wrong name, I use what is a classic old man joke. And if, if you're a listener and you don't know this joke, You're welcome. And it's, Uh, can call me whatever you want. Just don't call me late for dinner. I don't know. I mean, are you familiar with this joke?

Jeff: 11:31

Uh, Adam, there, there are times where you give us an insight into Arkansans, I've heard you pronounce it. And I think that was one of them because, uh, I've not ever heard that

Adam: 11:44

You didn't have that one in Texas growing up in Mesquite,

Jeff: 11:46

me late for dinner.

Adam: 11:48

Yeah. You can call me whatever you want. Just Don't call me late for dinner. How about

Jeff: 11:51

one from Liam Neeson, uh, in Airplane, Don't Call Me Shirley?

Adam: 11:55

Wait, wait, not Liam Neeson. Liam Neeson is the, uh, is the like taken guy. Who's like, uh, All I can think about now is Liam Neeson and airplane, and that would be an amazing

Jeff: 12:12

Dude. Well, I mean,

Adam: 12:13

You're thinking of

Jeff: 12:14

not to, say that I've ever watched the show, but I know that he makes an appearance in the movie Ted where he's talking about, uh, our tricks for kids.

Adam: 12:23

Yeah, yeah, You're thinking of Leslie Nielsen. His,

Jeff: 12:30

same initials. It was close.

Adam: 12:32

Don't call me Shirley.

Jeff: 12:34

Don't

Adam: 12:34

Sure. Surely you can't be serious. And he says, I am serious. And Don't call me.

Jeff: 12:44

Okay.

Adam: 12:46

All right. Oh, Hey, we've annoyed

Jeff: 12:50

that just, that's, that's what just happened. That's how we deal with our anxiety. Adam was concerned about addressing the anxiety of an eight for fear of offending them and or Jeff was and so then I just went on this long joke of going through actors with the letters L and N and uh, different phrases they've used in the various movies they've been part of. So there you go.

Adam: 13:14

And now all the eights, the eights are offended were about to get, deeper into the example of how anxiety shows up and then we went on our, we went on our tangent and so there's, they're still waiting, they're, they're waiting on us to, to,

Jeff: 13:27

We're exercising. Maybe they're getting anxious and angry with us.

Adam: 13:31

Yeah. How does it make you feel as you guys are listening and waiting? Um, what are you feeling right now that, uh, rage that you're noticing is a cold anxiety. But you know, I think here's a line and you know, every, every line I have, I, you know, every cliche or line I have, I took someone else, but, um, a good way to think about anxiety if you're as an eight, you may be listening to this and thinking, no, no, no, no, I don't feel anxious. I don't ever walk in a room and feel anxious. I I'm self assured. I feel, um, confident on my own two feet. I can walk in any room and I'm the leader. Um, I don't feel anxious, but it's helpful to say, no, this is your anxiety. Like we, like we did with the type one, like the inner critic. Um, that, that is, that is your anxiety, um, for the six, the worst case scenario thinking, um, that is your anxiety, uh, for an eight, your bravado or your strength, your bigness, um, Your rage. Don't think of rage. Like the incredible Hulk Rage is just big energy and your, your bravado often is your anxiety. And here's the, here's the line. Anxiety is me trying to get bigger than, than the fear that's inside of an

Jeff: 14:49

you mentioned it in the last episode that oftentimes, if you're getting big because of someone else's anxiety, it's because you're afraid of anxiety.

Adam: 14:58

You're anxious. Yeah. And so the, the, the, the thing is, it's, it's, it's like a dog shows it's showing its teeth, right? Like you would look at the dog and you're going, man, he's tough and big and strong. And loud and aggressive. And I don't want to mess with him, but if you could, if you could zoom inside the, the soul of the dog or the mind of the dog, kind of the way we get to see inside Riley's mind and inside out, you would know that the dog is afraid. The dog is anxious. That's, that's why the dog is, is displaying bravado. He's, he's using his strategy, uh, to protect himself. And, and this is, this is often for an eight, how it shows up. And, you know, if you feel like someone, here's some situational examples. If you're in a situation where you feel like someone is going to try to take advantage of you or manipulate you, um, someone's going to try to use their power and position to mistreat you or. Someone that's in your circle, aides are very protective of those in their circle and they're very protective of the vulnerable. And if you feel like someone else is going to pose a threat, you have, there's an anxiety about that. And that's a good thing. That's where I'm saying is like, Jeff and I were trying to say that not anxiety by default is not bad. It's trying to, trying to help. Um, You know, so these are just some examples of, of how it might show up. If, if you feel attacked, you know, if you feel restricted or controlled, um, if you feel threatened in some way, you're going to notice the, the strength emerge and most likely that is your anxiety.

Jeff: 16:41

That's awesome, Adam. I really appreciate it. I even think of, uh, yeah, we've been recently been attending a few different, um, large group gatherings and, uh, and as I talk about AIDS, they, they, oftentimes, and as I talk with AIDS, they sometimes boast about how much they don't care. And that was the equal but opposite error, but that is that is defined by I'm going to be so fiercely independent. my independency I mean, even being in a room that feels a little leaderless. the eight waiting to find out if someone's going to lead or not,

Adam: 17:21

That's anxiety.

Jeff: 17:22

a, there's angst in the room that you may or may not need to Now the great thing is that there are eights who will step in the gap when And it takes, it certainly takes wisdom to understand how to have a right relationship with an anxiety But sometimes it could be for the eight to pay the path to call someone else out to

Adam: 17:47

Uh huh.

Jeff: 17:48

to help a leader. Well, let's move on to type nine. Uh, so type nine is their core angst, their core anxiety, core fear is the loss of relationship, the loss of connection. And so when the reason why they have so much trouble with. Arguments with conflict is because of the anxiety that it creates in them that this is the beginning of the end. That this is how they're going to lose connection. So how much stress they feel, um, whenever there's even disagreements between other family members that may not even be related to them. So they've lost a sense of Uh, carrying a sense of just nines, read the room, they can feel the angst, the anxiety in the room. And sometimes that can be helpful, but sometimes it's a real burden for them because it's, was telling someone, it's almost like the, uh, superpowers that come with, uh, the characters in the movies X in the movie X Men that they need to learn how to yield. This gift that they um, wanting to move to solutions, losing your sense of identity in order to get to a solution to make people happy. That, that's anxiety that's motivating What comes to mind for you, Adam?

Adam: 19:03

Yeah. I think about my, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm really close to type nines. You know, my wife is a type nine. And so when I think about context and, you know, contextual examples for her, it's like if, if she and I are having a confrontation, she's probably most likely a one to one nine with me. And so if we're having a confrontation or a disagreement, I can see the anxiety and, and, and, and she, you know, she doesn't pursue, it's more like shut down. That's how anxiety shows up for her. And so if you're a nine and you fall into, um, sort of a relational narcolepsy, you know, of just, I'm going to disappear, which is also the thing they're most afraid of is, you know, being overlooked. And, but it's like, I'm, I'm going to, to disappear. I'm going to withdraw. That is her anxiety. That's it. It, that's, that's how it's showing up. And, um, now I also see her anxiety show up in an anger, know, she's in that gut triad, right? So there's a, there's a, there's a common desire for justice. And, you know, our eights and ones friends are very attuned to this as well. But if she, if she perceives that there's a justice, you know, being overlooked, you know, uh, people not receiving justice, someone's being, um, You know, the marginalized or the, the defenseless are being, you know, harmed in some way. Like there's a, there's an angst and an anger that shows up and it, it is an anxiety of, I've got to do something about this. Somebody has to do something about this, you know? And again, that's, that's, that's, that part of her is, Has good intentions, you know, um, but that's what comes to me for the nine, you know, chaos, um, any, you know, where, where there seems to be chaos and a lack of unity, uh, whether that's just in the, in our home or relation in certain relationships, like all of those are, are, are contexts where the anxiety is going to, but mostly with me. It mostly if, if, if she, if she and I are having a disagreement that doesn't get resolved, that's, that's where that's going to be the main trigger for anxiety and it'll show up in her sort of disappearing,

Jeff: 21:20

It is interesting to, even as we put these themes together and now we're kind of blending into subtypes, is that how each type experiences anxiety can be directly tied to their subtype as well. Mm hmm. So, if you, if you've gone that far or maybe want to be interested in something maybe it's not just with your anxiety, it's not just with one person, but with a group of communal anxiety, uh, to take a look at some of the subtypes because that could really answer some of the questions that people may have where, where does their anxiety Well, let's take a look at the heart trend and I'll let you, uh, lead off on each of the, the two threes and fours.

Adam: 22:00

absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk about our type two friends. The core. Angst as you said, Jeff, or the core anxiety, core fear a type two, is that fear of being unloved Or unwanted? Um, there's an anxiety that comes from not, not feeling appreciated, not feeling wanted, not feeling needed. Um, you know, that's the, the, the. core desire of a two is just, is to be loved and wanted, um, for who they are. And so if that need, I mean, that's a, and that's a basic need for every human being, but twos have a particular, um, desire for that and a particular vulnerability needing that. And if that need is not being met, there is an anxiety that's going to show up. And you know, uh, it's almost like a separation anxiety, um, of, I don't, I I'm not sure I belong and matter with the people I want to belong and matter with. And so there's the, there's a gap between me and this person and all the tension. Uh, and, uh, and, and here's, here's one way it often shows up. Anxiety can show up in the form of shame of like, maybe I'm not wanted. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm unwanted, you know, maybe I'm

Jeff: 23:18

even when I think of twos, I think of how much they insert their presence into other people's lives. So a two, in order to address their own fears around being unwanted, will insert themselves into the lives of others, so that others don't feel unwanted, hoping that ease their own anxiety about how they

Adam: 23:39

And let me say this, you, you, you talk about inserting yourself, like, like be a moving into someone else's life. Um, here's one way, you know, your anxiety shows up as a two is if you're exhausted, if you are, um, feel really underappreciated yet you're pouring out, if you're over functioning, Uh, in people's lives, you're people pleasing, these are these, it's like, it's like the Jeff Foxworthy, like, there's your sign. Remember that from the nineties? It's like,

Jeff: 24:15

Well, but that wasn't, that wasn't Jeff Foxworthy,

Adam: 24:18

Well, it wasn't.

Jeff: 24:19

No, it was the other guy. I don't remember his name. He was the shorter guy. Um, not Larry, the cable guy.

Adam: 24:28

Ron.

Jeff: 24:29

No, that was the drinking guy.

Adam: 24:32

yeah. Okay. Well here,

Jeff: 24:35

Google it. Hold on just a

Adam: 24:36

who, who,

Jeff: 24:37

cause you corrected my Liam Neeson reference earlier. So,

Adam: 24:43

in, in the naked gun

Jeff: 24:45

Bill Ingvall. Ha ha. Gotcha.

Adam: 24:48

Ingvall. You did get me. Here's your sign.

Jeff: 24:50

Yeah.

Adam: 24:52

He's the one that did, here's your sign.

Jeff: 24:54

He did. Yeah. He tells stories about stating the obvious.

Adam: 24:59

Okay. Well, Bill Ingvall, but it's, it's like, here's your anxiety. You know, it's like, if you want to know how it's showing up, if you're, if you're exhausted, over functioning, there it is.

Jeff: 25:10

Yep. There it is. It was funny. I was, uh, we were doing a marriage retreat. So Beth and I did our first extended marriage retreat, Enneagram, uh, really for marriages. Uh, it was an incredible experience and we were so impacted by, uh, the willingness of these couples to follow our lead and. To trust us and we are so thrilled to see the impact of what it meant for them to be able to have conversations with new language but one guy Came up to me it was actually over dinner and he said hey Jeff, you know, you're a funny guy Then you'll make these really provocative questions and go really deep Because do you use your your humor to kind of diffuse a room? I was like, you can, you can get out of my kitchen. Like you're,

Adam: 26:06

for sure. Yeah,

Jeff: 26:08

using other things to diffuse the anxiety is common for all the

Adam: 26:14

that's right.

Jeff: 26:16

just the way that we cope with talk about type three.

Adam: 26:19

Yeah. Yeah. The core anxiety cause for a three or is that core angst or core fear is a fear failure. a fear of being unworthy, uh, of success. a fear of others looking back at Are you looking at yourself? Are you looking at others looking back at With, with eyes of disappointment and disapproval. Um, you're not enough, you know, you're a

Jeff: 26:48

I felt the, I feel anxiety when you just said that when someone's looking back at you with the eyes of disappointment, like yeesh,

Adam: 26:54

yeah, Nobody wants

Jeff: 26:56

that

Adam: 26:57

nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. And for the three, again, there's a particular fear of that. And, and I have a lot of compassion for my three friends who carry that. And you know, that, that anxiety occurs when they feel that they're just when they're not being productive, they're not, they're not being productive. They're not being successful. They're not, They're not, you know, being recognized for their achievements. That's the core anxiety cause for them. And then, you know, there's lots of contextual examples of how this shows up. You know, it's, it's, it can show up in a, uh, overperforming. If you're a three and you, uh, You are exhausted from pouring out and performing and doing, um, you know, that. that's, that's a good sign that that's your anxiety, you know, um, when you feel like you have to, to, uh, constantly be getting better, you know, there's a fine line between self development and anxious self development, like what I would call compulsive. Self development, you know, there's a compulsivity to the, to, I've got to get better. I've got to, I've got to outcompete this cannot lose, you know, there's a difference between, um, doing your best and having to be the best. I mean, if you're doing your best as a three, and this is what we do, we tell, we tell this to our kids all the time. If they've got a test or a softball game or something, it's like, Hey, do your best. That's all we can ask. And if you strike out, you strike out. You know, I mean, it's okay that you have feelings about striking out. It's okay that that makes you angry. It's okay that that's okay. But just if you're doing your best, then you're doing your best. but if you have to be the uh, that's a pressure that the soul can't sustain. And I'm telling you, it, it's, it's a recipe for anxiety. It is your anxiety. What, what about you, Jeff? What, what, what comes to mind from the three?

Jeff: 28:51

Well, I, I'm starting to realize that I, I, as I think about each of the types, this idea of projection, uh, is coming to mind for me a lot in these themes because some, I just think so much like for a three, threes when working in teams and groups, like they get really frustrated with incompetent leaders. Or teams that aren't functioning efficiently or family. That's not going along with the plans that they've made for the family, whether it like be vacation or just getting through the, the weekend, um, sports, let's say, and the schedule that needs to take place. So whenever, Other people aren't coming through the way that they want them to come through. They're projecting this sense of it of anxiety of we, we, this is the schedule. This is the efficient way. This is the productive way and we need to be efficient and productive. Uh, despite who we may, what we may be feeling or experiencing in our life, you have to keep producing. And that's where the anxiety is coming from from the type three. Now they're the ones that can be the most, Disengaged from their heart. And so a three may not name it as anxiety. They may name it as frustration um, they may or may not even be willing to name that they're feeling something and The family may all be looking at them like we can tell you're upset about But you're not telling us but it's all over your mind Face and we can read it from your body, your nonverbal, but the idea I think of projection is a way of under seeing a trail head of what am I holding other people that maybe I'm, that I'm anxious about in my own

Adam: 30:35

Yeah. Can I put it in a word? Here's, here's a word. If that my three friends often try to disguise their anxiety as this word and it's the word ambition. Um, nothing wrong with ambition. I mean, that's, those are virtues, but oftentimes we, we, we try to sort of baptize our anxiety as this is, this is just ambition. I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to do my best, you know, I'm just, and it's, and what's that saying of every person that died on Mount Everest was once a highly ambitious person. Um, you know, Ambition is a virtue. So, you know, my favorite thing to say these days, especially when people like to take sound bites and take things out of context. uh, but my favorite thing to say is don't hear what I'm not saying. Um, I'm not saying ambition is bad. I'm saying it's, it's like in the same way that the eight might say, no, this is just my strength. I'm just, this is, this is called confidence. Well, yeah, but there's a gold and shadow side to that. The gold is, is your ambition can, can, can take you to great places make everybody around you better. But the shadow side of your ambition is that it's a comp, it's actually a compulsivity that doesn't know how to stop. And that's anxiety. What you call ambition is actually anxiety. Does that make sense?

Jeff: 32:01

Yep. It does.

Adam: 32:02

Well, let's talk about force. Um, let's talk about force. Uh, Round out the heart triad here. So the, the, the core anxiety cause the core angst or core fear four friends is really a fear of not having a, an identity or personal significance. It's an, it's an anxiety caused by feelings of inadequacy, especially being misunderstood. really the, the shame of being misunderstood causes a, a, a strong angst for the four. Um, you know, if, if, if, if they're, if they're feeling as though they're not seen as special, honored, as special. If, if, you know, if, if, if you're not valuing their uniqueness, um, there's, there's just an, there's a, there's an angst that they carry. Another way that anxiety shows up is by internalizing other people's pain. You know, uh, fours have an incredible gift for empathy and for sitting in a place of Uh, but there can be some transference that happens there. And so stories about people hurting or in despair or situations that appear hopeless too much four. And these, these are things that can activate that anxiety. Uh, but what, what, what goes on in you when you think about the four? As they relate to anxiety?

Jeff: 33:27

a few experiences that I've had, uh, with type fours, uh, one would be, I, I hear the ache in their heart whenever they share stories of their fantasy Fours have a tendency to fantasize conversations and relationships and they will predict or forecast, uh, how conversations are going to go or what people will say about them feel about them. And they experience it as if it's If you're, if you're fantasizing about conversations, that's, that's anxiety think too, it's, it's kind of an interesting phenomena if you've been around fours a lot, and particularly if you're close to them where they kind of let their guard down. But sometimes I experience the arrogance in order to compensate for what they perceive as inadequacy, or maybe that they're too unique or flawed, that they actually come across as arrogant and certain. Like no one can understand depth of this topic, this artist, this, uh, procedure the way that I can. And it, it's almost as a way of dealing, we're not having to deal with the angst that's inside their heart, that they're going to force you to understand their value. It's very nuanced, but I, it, it, it always surprises it'd be like with a six to be quite honest with you. Cause I, a lot of people experience me as strong and decisive. And, but, uh, that is purely a coping mechanism because there's a lot of fear on the other side of it. It just shows up in a particular way in my various And so it, I quite, Jeff describes himself as being and anxious, but yet he comes across strong and arrogant decisive, like he doesn't want your feedback and he's just making a decision. sometimes that kind of strength is actually anxiety

Adam: 35:41

Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: 35:41

And I've just experienced that sometimes with fours.

Adam: 35:45

Mm-Hmm..Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With the four you get. Sometimes the, um, I think where I see anxiety show up sometimes is just in a, just in a, a heightened sensitivity. If it just, there's, there's just a, um. Almost like an intolerance for, uh, for, for anything really. and so, you know, when you get to That place of every there's, there's a constant defensiveness and, um, and that's, that's, that's anxiety, you know? Um, Jeff, why don't you finish us out with the head triad and we get to dive deeper into, deeper into, deeper into our own type here.

Jeff: 36:26

it was fun. We were recently at the, um, mom at mom con and a wonderful experience. And so fun to. with all of our listeners of the podcast and people who follow us on Instagram. So, uh, super, super fun. But, you know, here we were in the context of, Thousands of women, um, and, uh, we would run into fives and they were always like, I know I'm, there's probably not many of us here. And there, there actually weren't that many fives there. And, um, they definitely were the quieter ones. And, uh, but you know, they were there and, uh, they were, there were probably more of them than what we, uh, would have expected, at least what they would have expected. But, the core anxiety of the five is being overwhelmed or depleted. Anxiety arises from a lack of time, space, or energy in order to And, you know, if, for the five, the way this shows up is if they find themselves increasingly trying to get away. Where maybe they're, they, maybe they're like these moms at mom con where they've got young kids that there's, there's really not an opportunity to get away, um, that they, they have to be present, but they're always thinking about trying to get away. That's that sense of anxiety. You know, I think too, uh, Whenever five start to, disproportionately focus on studying the nuances of a particular topic that are unnecessary to meet the needs of the in order to know all the details about how it That can be a form of anxiety. Now, it can also be sort of like a hobbyist and just simply done out of playful curiosity and intrigue, like the engineer who wants to understand how, you know, the, the toy works. And so they disassemble things in order to put it back together to see how it works. So it can function for the five in both ways, but the fives will know that whenever, or at least they know the experience of when. They get obsessively focused on a topic and give more and more The other thing is the, the avoidance of feeling incompetent or uninformed, that it, it actually creates anxiety for them. That, that is anxiety for them, is trying to avoid Anything else you'd add?

Adam: 39:05

Yeah, I think the only thing I would add? is, um, because a lot of fives will hear you, we'll hear you say, um, increasingly trying to withdraw and they will, they will just point out that that's, inerrant to their type. I mean, they, they need, they need more time and space to recharge. Um, to, you know, and, and fives love solitude and, you know, they're okay with, you know, more time to themselves. The only thing I would say is there's a fundamental difference between solitude and isolation. And so, um, if you are isolating, And that is where you are putting up, you know, proverbial walls, thick, tall walls to keep other people out. And you are retreating to your, to your intellectual world. And that's the real estate where you're sort of camping out. Um, and, and you're isolating, that is your anxiety. Solitude is different. Solitude is a basic human need. Again, everybody needs it. Even our type seven friends, either the or the most extroverted pers person on the planet, needs time alone to themselves recharge, um, to reconnect, uh, solitude's a, a need. Uh, but, but if you're isolating, uh, no one's meant for that. And, and that, that is your anxiety, the isolation, the, the, the, the withdrawing.

Jeff: 40:31

You know, one thing that did come to mind as I was fives do isolate themselves and distance themselves relationally is, uh, they deny their need or their experience of

Adam: 40:47

Mm

Jeff: 40:49

And a lot of fives would say like, they don't, don't have feelings or they don't know how to explain what they're feeling. They don't have words to That's actually anxiety showing Emotions are dangerous. Uh, emotions can be overwhelming. You know, if one of the core longings is for the, the five that their needs are okay, and that at some point as a young child, they decided that their needs were a problem and that they wanted to take care of themselves apart from parents then, you know, emotions would say like, no, I'm a person who has needs, who needs attunement from parents. So even isolation, like it's a, it is a movement of anxiety. please come after Please come and find me All right, let's look at type six. Now we're in the hood. this always happens whenever we get to to the type you know, we're just talking about the neighborhood we live in. But, um, so the core angst of the six is being without support or guidance. it emerged, emerges from insecurity and uncertainty. so situations that we're facing like now in I don't, I don't know the rules to play by in order to feel safe. There are no rules,

Adam: 42:15

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: 42:17

There's nothing that I can sense that I can find a sense of control or power. powerless. And also there's a theme of learned helplessness that's a helplessness that's actually. taught and caught by, uh, it's really all the types, feeling powerless helpless and trying to find mechanisms with, to adopt safe again. You know, Adam, I, the craziest thing I, we, when we're at this mom con, I was thinking about our next event that we're going to, which is the extraordinary women conference in Charlotte at the end of October.

Adam: 43:00

Mm hmm.

Jeff: 43:01

well, as many of you know, when I think it was Hurricane, is it Helen? Helena? Helen? I but, um, it's the hurricane that recently rocked North Carolina, uh, and, eastern Tennessee. Well, one of the highways to get to Charlotte is, uh, Has been knocked out like it literally, some erosion that happened in the highway collapsed. Seriously, I, I probably spent two hours thinking about this. I even went to Google maps to look at it and to see which different ways we're going to have to go in order to drive to get there. But it was keeping me up trying to figure it out. And I was half asleep again, trying to figure out how in the world we're going to get. The Charlotte and how long is it going to take The answer was simply clear. Like there were things that I could do. There were Beth and I can break up the trip and, uh, have a fun little weekend together on our way there. And on our way back fears about, uh, did I make a mistake and not booking a flight? Uh, what's it, are we going to have to go through these smaller towns? Are they're going to have some road problems as well? How are we going to make this thing? And that's just the idea. Like, I don't, no one's going to tell me what. I'm going to have to figure this out, but I was carrying it in a very anxious way. It wasn't about planning. It was about something way more than feeling worried about future events, um, experiencing the experiences of the body, my anxiety shows up in my stomach, it my neck, but it's primarily through the in my head. Um, man, I, I, Regret's another big one for me. I, I know that regret is usually anxiety showing up that don't make this kind of decision again.

Adam: 44:47

Hmm.

Jeff: 44:48

you know, I was the one that was responsible for preparing all the items that we needed to take for our booth Um for this big event and we were flying there So I had to make sure that things were shipped to the right place I are packed the right things I didn't I made a mistake and I regretted it But I I thought that we could take a bag Weighing 70 pounds. It was actually 50, but then on the way back, uh, I probably spent at least two or three hours thinking through how to make sure our bags were all within the 50 pound range so that we could get it back without having

Adam: 45:23

You're like, I'm not going to make that mistake again.

Jeff: 45:25

That's right. So regret's a big one. How do you, how does your anxiety show up, Adam?

Adam: 45:31

Yeah, Well, also being a six and I think I'll, I'll say this through, through the lens of subtypes, you know, I, I, I mean you use all three subtypes, but I certainly identify more with the self preservation six these days. And so it usually shows up in obsessive thoughts about, um, not having enough. Fill in the blank, just not having enough, you know, not, not being enough, not having enough, not having what it takes. And some of that is,

Jeff: 46:01

food when we have I don't know.

Adam: 46:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that, and that's, that's funny. that you mentioned that because I, um, you know, I love to, to smoke meat and barbecue and I'm always super, Uh nervous about checking the internal temperature of food, you know, before I serve it to my

Jeff: 46:21

that right?

Adam: 46:22

yeah, cause I don't want to be the ones to poison my family and friends and be responsible for their deaths, you know? Um,

Jeff: 46:29

Dude, that got serious really fast.

Adam: 46:32

that's where, see what I mean? And, and Hey, there's your anxiety. it gets to worst case scenario real fast, when you go from zero to 60, you know, in three seconds, um, two seconds or whatever, that's, that's your anxiety. And, um, you know, worst case scenario thinking, uh, constantly seeking reassurance, the inability to trust yourself and your own judgment, man, those are, those are all manifestations of anxiety for the six. And I'm, I'm, all of those. Yeah.

Jeff: 47:07

let's just talk about type seven, which is another type that we might consider. Sevens don't have anxiety. They're all about having fun. And, uh, always next to the new adventure. But they carry a core angst about them, a core fear of being trapped in pain and deprived of freedom, the loss of decisions. And so, whenever they start to experience limitations or they start to experience routine or, uh, heaven forbid, boredom, there will be an angst about them. Now that anxiety is not going to look the same as the type six or the type four. It's going to look unique to the type seven. But there's a sense of restlessness, of new experience, new adventure, the newness of the next thing. Uh, that's anxiety and perceiving that they are limited or restricted that they may not be. That may just be normal human boundaries and expectations and responsibility, but those can be experienced in an anxious heart as a way of feeling trapped or deprived of something. And so they'll be anxiously trying to free themselves Um. There's stories of people in pain and despair that forces them to feel, uh, negative emotions. Can be very, um, uh, what, uh, activating for the type 7 to feel anxiety. They may kind of stay away from certain things that would help make them feel or cause them to certain emotions of sadness and hurt. They may want to avoid those things because they don't want to, um, experience the negative in their perception. And so there's this ongoing vigilance and angst of avoiding anything that's going to be negative or pessimistic. In your relationships with type sevens and coaching type sevens, how do you see their anxiety

Adam: 49:07

Yeah, um, inability to stop, to be still, um, uh, uh, you know, just constantly, almost compulsively asking the question, what's next? You know, um, and, and when, I have a, I have a friend who has a, one of his sons, he's pretty sure is a seven. We're all pretty sure he's a seven and they're, they can be in the middle of enjoying a family movie night with popcorn and snacks and they finally get everything. They've been looking forward to it all week and they get everything spread out and his son will, before they even take the first bite, his son will say, what are we doing tomorrow? What are we going to do tomorrow morning? Dad, what are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing after the movie? And he'll say in a very non shaming way, he'll say, Hey, right now we're, focused on what's what's now, not what's And, um, and, and we'll, we'll, we'll talk about what's next soon, but right now we're focused on what's next, what's now, not what's next. And I think for sevens, the inability to focus on what's now, particularly being like, what's now inside of you. What, where are you, where are you emotionally? Um, so if you're constant, if you're doing constant activity, um, know, constant stimulation, overindulgence, you may call it fun. Uh, but if you are, you know, there's a, there's a concept called pleasure stacking, uh, where it's like just one fun thing after another, you know, just. And, and nothing, I mean, a gift from

Jeff: 50:42

you know this to be true if you have ever planned a Disney trip,

Adam: 50:46

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: 50:47

where you overplan it and you end up just being exhausted and upset that you did this to yourself.

Adam: 50:53

Yeah. Well, you know, what's funny, the, uh, Jewish rabbis talk about pleasure stacking as, as like a, a command on the Sabbath. They say like the Sabbath is a snow day. Remember when you were a kid and you get a snow day and it's like, this is a day, God says, do what you want to do. Rest, I will keep the world spinning while you play. Uh, it's, it's an exercise in trusting God to let go of everything and just play. And so the Jewish rabbis would talk about pleasure stacking, eat, drink, be merry, have fun, like do the things that you want to do and do it with God, but like get out there and so pleasure stacking is a great way to enjoy your life. But if it is your life, there's your anxiety. Uh, if it is your life. anxiety and the inability to, to just be present and be still and not be distracted. Um, and sevens feel it. If you put them in a place where you take away their freedom or they feel boxed in and they're, they have to sit there. Um, and, and, you know, when I'm working with a seven as a client, I just, I'm so, I try to be really gentle and compassionate and just help them name that, that like the fidgeting energy, how uncomfortable you are in the wondering mind is because you're, you're dying to get out of this moment. want to get out of here and that's called anxiety and that's okay. Um, but that's Yeah, how it shows up. I think

Jeff: 52:19

I'll end with this fun little story. Um, the same mentor that introduced me to the Enneagram here, we would go on walks together during seminary. And, uh, there was one day we were walking around campus and we, uh, saw this guy running and we were just admiring that this guy was out there running on this. You know, side road to the highway and we were admiring and wishing we were runners and what that would mean for our health and our weight and all those different things. but a couple minutes later, a cop goes down the same road with their lights on

Adam: 52:54

that's why it was running.

Jeff: 52:56

and, uh, uh, my friend, uh, he's, he's a therapist as well. And he goes, you know, Jeff, We, uh, you know, we see people running. We always think, where are they going? What are they striving But we rarely ask the question, what are they running And when I think about type sevens, like, yeah, it's true that we may admire them for their fun and want to participate and join in and think, ah, I wish my life was something like that. But, uh, oftentimes there, that energy can be coming from anxiety where they're actually running from something that. God's inviting him to understand their own core needs that their hearts can rest

Adam: 53:38

Mm. Hmm.

Jeff: 53:40

well friends, I hope you enjoyed today. I hope this, as we began this idea of naming it to tainment, that hopefully you're finding some insights in how Each of the types how anxiety shows up in an unexpected ways Now once we talk through these it may be very clear to you like, oh, okay I didn't realize that was anxiety. And so hopefully that's helpful. But if hey if put it in the comments, uh, and be sure to Yeah, be sure to email us but let's make this a community thing where How does anxiety show up for your type in your own experience? And maybe that's going to be helpful to other types or people who care dearly or in relationship with a person of your type. Uh, so be sure to put in the comments how anxiety is showing up for you, uh, in your own personal life. In this next episode, we're going to pay the path for you in order to tame it. What does it look like that when you are experiencing anxiety, what are you supposed to do with it? If we are supposed to have a relationship with this, and this is something that God has given us, well, the, He gave it to us for a reason, and it actually draws us closer to Him. Now, we're not going to spiritually bypass and just quote verses at you, but we're going to provide some helpful things that take into account all of your sense of humanity, and the needs that you have as a human being, so that your heart can come to rest. To be seen, to be heard, to have a sense of support and encouragement so that your heart can come to rest and your anxiety doesn't have to play such a significant role and carry such a heavy burden. So thanks for hanging out with us. If you missed the previous episode, where we're defining anxiety, be sure to take a listen to that. We've got one more. We're going to talk through, uh, how each type, what practices would be helpful for you and how to tame your anxiety. Uh, be sure to leave, ask us your questions in the comments, or you can email us at info at your Enneagram coach. com. Hope you'll join us next time for our next episode, Adam. It's always great to be with you.

Adam: 55:39

Same. We'll see in the next episode.

Jeff: 55:41

Thanks everybody.