Jeff: 0:00

Hey friends. It looks like we've got your attention because we are talking about anxiety and how anxiety shows up for Enneagram type. If you haven't taken a look yet, be sure to check out the two previous episodes where we talk about what is anxiety and how it shows up for each Enneagram type. Now, in this particular episode, we're going to be discussing what, what do you do? Okay. You, uh, How does it showing up? And then what are you going to do about it? Is it something that always needs to be eliminated? Is it actually helpful? And your body's telling you something, all of these things we take into consideration. So today we want this to be a helpful episode for you to discuss how to handle anxiety according to your type. So, what exactly is it and how does it impact each Enneagram type and what are some ways in which each type can respond to anxiety to regulate themselves and to navigate their in their professional lives clarity and more, uh, serenity. Well, welcome to your Enneagram coach the podcast. I am Jeff McCord Co founder and CEO and here I'm with Adam Breckinridge the director of coaching Adam. We're glad you're here

Adam: 1:13

So good to be with you, Jeff, as always.

Jeff: 1:16

the funny thing is we were just talking before I You've got two sixes talking about anxiety, uh, which stereotypically sixes have, um, yeah, sixes have the most, are supposed to have the most anxiety. And I have to say, I woke up, my body was on. I mean, I, It just seems like my nervous system dealing with some fear and uncertainty, wondering if there's anyone outside of me, it's going to give me a sense of direction and solve some of the things that I'm worried about. you know, anxiety really does play a significant role in each type's life and we seem to be kind of

Adam: 2:01

That's right. Yeah. It sounds like you're prime and ready to have a conversation about anxiety this morning. You know, I, I woke up in a similar way. I really did. I woke up in a similar way this morning. Um, and I was reminded, we talked about this, you know, a couple, couple episodes ago that there was an article that, that, that said that, um, you know, and I'm, and I'm thankful for research like this because it reminds me that I'm, it makes me feel less lonely when I realized that. You and me and my six friends are not, we don't have the corner market on anxiety. Anxiety really is a human phenomenon. And we talked about this article that said that, you know, 41 percent of American adults are experiencing peak stress levels for the year. Um, right now. And, you know, uh, the American Psychiatric Association does, does this annual mental health poll. And this year, so far this year, 43 percent of adults say they feel more anxious than they did the previous Um, the previous year it was 37 percent in 2023. In 32 percent of adults. And so, Right now people are particularly anxious. Uh, you know, current events are playing into that economy, election, all kinds of stuff that's going on there. But, but Yeah. I think Jeff, what, I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel you when you say you wake up anxious this morning, I feel You And you know, I think probably our listeners and our audience feel you

Jeff: 3:26

You know, and it's interesting for me that I, I'm not sure that, well, to be honest with you, I, when probably 2011 I was on a sabbatical and we actually spent some time with the marriage and family guy, uh, therapist, who originally introduced our friends to the Enneagram back in 2001. And for years I thought I was a type eight. Uh, because the way in which I would handle my anxiety was I would isolate and shut down. I don't necessarily get frenetic, uh, it's not something that I show other people around me. Um, And, you know, part of that too is, uh, I was a place kicker in college and so learning how to just shut it all down and focus on the job and not get overwhelmed by all the things that are happening around you. Uh, maybe that was a skill that I learned,

Adam: 4:28

Yeah.

Jeff: 4:29

I remember, uh, after doing some story work, so I had done some exercises around the highs and uh, all the highs were associated with having a mentor. And the guy said, I, I, I'm not sure you're an eight. I like what you're telling me is that you're a six. I was pissed. really, really angry because I didn't want to answer. I didn't want to name. My anxiety. Now, a gentleman that we both follow and appreciate, um, Steve cuss, um, at the best domain name ever, Steve

Adam: 5:04

I know.

Jeff: 5:05

um, a. com, but he, you know, he uses the phrase, you've got to name it to tame it. that's the important thing about why we're going through each of the nine types, because not each night may not think of themselves as being anxious. But the kind of frenetic energy, overcorrection, hypervigilance that comes from each of the types. Like if, if Jeff goes quiet, he's trying to shut it down.

Adam: 5:37

Yeah.

Jeff: 5:38

I've got a cold, um, infection, so I might know, Adam, I mean, what, what are you thinking? Why are we so afraid to admit to our anxiety?

Adam: 5:50

Well, I think the greatest fear of all is to be vulnerable and nothing puts you in touch with your vulnerability like admitting your anxiety. I mean, your anxiety. Your anxiety is pointing to your, your neediness, your vulnerability, your limitations, your weaknesses. Um, it's, it, it, it humanizes you is what it does. And I think we don't want to be human. Not in that way. Not, not in a vulnerable. And that's that's that old C. S. Lewis line, right? Where he's like to love anything is to be vulnerable. And that's our greatest fear in

Jeff: 6:23

See, that's really interesting. Yeah, we have a lot of ambivalence. Towards our humanity and Uh, Steve talks about being rightly sized humans, but one, we can't treat our limitations and weaknesses with contempt to deny them. And nor can we. overcorrect and tried to be superhuman and to be able to work hard enough with whatever our type Enneagram type strategies may be to actually be superhuman and to eliminate neediness,

Adam: 6:58

That's right.

Jeff: 6:59

but tons of ambivalence towards this. And, and sadly, I, I, you know, we're coming into the holiday season. And so for many of us, we're going to be tight. We're going to be with our families. Our family had a relation, we, our family had a relationship with our anxiety and our type, uh, has certain, it was been impacted, nuanced by how our needs were related to by our caregivers growing up. And so for many of us, just, we chose these paths because as kids they were the most reasonable paths to deal with our anxiety. But in our adulthood, we start to find that that actually causes problems for us personally, in our relationships, in our professional lives, spiritual communities, where overcompensation has, started to bear its

Adam: 7:56

That's right. That's right. That's right. It's interesting because the pathway to relationship is vulnerability. When you have an ambivalence or at best an ambivalence, at worst a shame toward your vulnerability. Like if you just despise your humanness, your limitations, you despise your neediness. Um, you take yourself out of vulnerability, which means you take yourself out of relationship. And so a lot of times we wonder, why are my relationships struggling? Why do I feel so disconnected from myself? Why do I feel so isolated from God or whatever? And it, it, it, it happens when we take ourselves out of vulnerability. Um, so therefore kind of going back to something we've said in previous episodes, your anxiety is not just a thing that's wrong with You that needs to be fixed. If viewed rightly, it's actually an invitation into being known, being seen, being vulnerable, and therefore it's, it's an invitation into relationship.

Jeff: 8:56

You know, it's interesting when I think of, uh, The verses in the Bible talk about fear, but not fearing, I typically read them through the lens of shame. Do not fear. that's just not going to be a reality for going to fear. Um, but there's always the invitation for I'm with you cast all your anxieties on him because he cares for

Adam: 9:28

That's right. That's right. That's right.

Jeff: 9:30

mean, what's the Philippians four?

Adam: 9:35

Oh,

Jeff: 9:36

yeah, gosh, I can't believe I'm forgetting the

Adam: 9:38

you're talking that. You're talking about, are you talking about the peace of peace of God That surpasses all understanding?

Jeff: 9:43

that's right. I want, I'm trying to combine in my head flippings to do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but that's not what I'm looking for.

Adam: 9:53

4 is the whole like, be anxious about

Jeff: 9:55

There you go. That's it. but in prayer and petition present your request to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts. And the reality is like, no, no, hide your anxiety in shame. Shame's actually trying, or the anxiety is trying to move relationship that you need help. hard to name that I need because we, we, when we have asked for help, maybe we have a history of shamed or. Uh, when we express needs, we have guilt that comes with it. And we don't want that. We don't want rejection. Uh, we certainly don't want to face the loneliness that if we have a spouse who doesn't relate well to our neediness. or if maybe it's the dynamic of the relationship is. you're not needy, so they can be and they don't know what to do whenever you have a need. There's all kinds of dynamics to it that give us good reason to not experience our anxiety. today we're going to talk about what to do about it. And so we're going to go through the triads. We'll start at the top of the enneagram. So why don't we jump into a type eight first, uh, and how they experience anxiety. Now. And I, you know, the reality is, is that we wouldn't say that many, that aides are anxious people, if you know what to look for, they can be, they're incredibly anxious. It just looks very strong.

Adam: 11:30

that's right, think about It like this, so, so take that word strong, that you just said, there's a strong response, and there is a withdrawn response, so think about anxiety showing up in each Enneagram type, In the form of exaggerations Sometimes it's going to show up in, in an exaggerated response. So it's, it's bravado, it's big energy. It's doubling down on something. It's becoming more aggressive. It's becoming more perfectionistic. it's, you know, it's, it has, it has an, a more of aggressive attack with response to it. So it shows up in exaggerations, exaggerated responses, but other times it shows up in diminishments. So. You know, so many gram types, their anxiety shows up and in their relational narcolepsy, they fall asleep, they withdraw, they retreat, they move away. Um, and so if you pay attention to the strategies and how diminished are the strategies, how exaggerated are the strategies there, therein lies the anxiety. And so

Jeff: 12:32

It is interesting. I, I sometimes, uh, will reflect back to I, I feel alone with

Adam: 12:42

right.

Jeff: 12:42

Like, I, don't, I don't feel like you're, we're, open with one another, that I can be open with you because you're not being open about what's really going on inside. And this is particularly can come across with AIDS because they can be so independent.

Adam: 13:00

Mm

Jeff: 13:01

Um,

Adam: 13:02

Mm hmm.

Jeff: 13:02

they can be sort of isolated uh, at times, you know, they're always boasting about wanting to step in and take control or have control over, the relationships in their peer groups. And that's all anxiety.

Adam: 13:17

That's all anxiety. Yeah. It's all anxiety because it's protecting something. And you know, anxiety is a protector. We talked about that from inside out too when, when the key character anxiety says, I was just trying to protect her. So for the eight, I think there's an overcorrected, overcorrection response to anxiety, um, where you, you push others out of the way. to get what you want. you get big, which is really a form of rage. Rage is less breaking stuff and hulking out. Rage is just a big response. Rage is, I'm trying to get bigger than the fear that's inside of me. And so, uh, eights will get kind of big, you know, they become more assertive, more confrontational, and there's nothing wrong with being assertive and confrontational and being direct. Those are, Those are gifts, but I'm saying this, there's an exaggeration to it. They become more assertive. Um, they kind of throw their weight around. They say, you know, you have to deal with And, uh, there's a certain dominant domination that they bring into relationships and that's an overcorrection to their anxiety. Um, A more helpful, healthy response to anxiety, which is what we're talking about in this episode, would be for the eights to practice vulnerability and relent and the discipline of relinquishing, relinquishing control or the illusion of control. So, um, I think AIDs feel, they experience anxiety when they feel powerless and when they feel vulnerable. And so, it's kind of this, uh, counter, counter formation practices. How do, how do you grow in that as you, you actually practice vulnerability,

Jeff: 15:01

Can you imagine what that would look like? Cause I'm thinking of team coaching that I've done and presentations and workshops for various when there was an eight in the room, can you imagine an eight showing up one day where the team is sort of in, uh, they're in a difficult or anxious moment where a project's not going and an eight saying, You know, I'm looking at this project and I, where it stands right now, I'm really scared. scared that we're going to and I'm inclined to take it over. But I really want to make sure that we, I think we can all tackle this together, but we're, we're going to, we're going to need some additional

Adam: 15:48

Yeah.

Jeff: 15:49

Can you imagine what that would do for, I mean, I remember one team, um, they, they tagged their, uh, their leader as your eightness.

Adam: 15:58

ha ha.

Jeff: 16:00

And it was, it was sort of like a batch versus taking that as, Oh no, you're seeing the unhealthy side of and versus the vulnerable side because it, you know, for an eight to move towards their anxiety so that it moves them towards people and out of isolation and to be able to address the real fear that's in betrayal,

Adam: 16:25

Oh, Oh, Yes.

Jeff: 16:28

it's going to be through vulnerability.

Adam: 16:31

That's right. That's

Jeff: 16:32

sometimes that's going to mean passing on taking leadership and taking responsible

Adam: 16:39

Yep. And the aides listening to this are going to say, Yeah. but, and, you know, I want to offer you this, this encouragement of, uh, there's a, there's a, there's a discernment to this. I mean, you don't just practice vulnerability with just anyone. There are people that will use it against you, but, but unfortunately the only way forward is to. To put yourselves in, put yourself in situations where you're practicing and Jeff's your example of an eight leader on a team delegating and, you know, letting go of control, like, let, you know, letting other people drive and trusting other people to be responsible with it. That's, that's a, that's a perfect example of kind of what this, how this looks in everyday life, what this looks like. Um, shall we talk about the, uh, let's talk about type nine. Both of us are married to nines,

Jeff: 17:26

We are.

Adam: 17:27

so we have

Jeff: 17:27

anxious at all. She's usually very calm, very wise, and sober minded. Uh, I think I've said in the previous episode, whenever experienced Beth anxiety, you don't, don't live in this hood. Like you need to go home. get out of my six world.

Adam: 17:50

let me have this one.

Jeff: 17:52

You can't handle this, this down here in the six world of the Enneagram symbol. Uh,

Adam: 17:59

that's right. That's right. Yes. And so, of course, we know our, our type nines do experience anxiety. And I think an overcorrection, uh, you know, an unhealthy response to it as they sort of double down on their withdrawal. Um, and so there's an, there's an escape. They're looking for the escape hatch, you know, and usually the escape hatch is just within themselves. You know, whereas seven, it's just

Jeff: 18:26

a strong word for it,

Adam: 18:30

Yeah. That's what it is. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Jeff: 18:34

numb, fill, or blind

Adam: 18:37

That's right. That's That's right. And that, that's, that's not the best response. It, it, it, it

Jeff: 18:45

I love your kind words. That's not the best I feel like you're talking to your wife now, like, Hey,

Adam: 18:53

yeah, she's going to,

Jeff: 18:54

there are other options.

Adam: 18:56

Yeah, yeah, Yeah. She's going to listen to this. Well, she knows because the thing that we say all the time in our house is if we don't deal with the emotion or the anxiety, it doesn't go away. It gets worse. That's, that's something we, we, I mean, it, it becomes impaired. It comes out sideways. It just, it just gets worse. Uh, it may go to sleep. And that, that's its own problem. If it goes to sleep, it's sort of this sleeping dragon and it will wake up, it will wake up, and so you have to deal with the emotion and the anxiety that's the surface. um, so with that in mind, a more helpful strategy for our, our nines is, um, to address the avoidance, uh, and assert your needs, You know, um, you know, practice addressing your avoidance tendencies, address it head on. What, as you said earlier, in the words of our friend, Steve, name it so you can tame it, name, name your, you know, Hey, I'm engaging in inoculating activity. I'm withdrawing. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm falling asleep again. Name those avoidance tendencies. And then,

Jeff: 20:06

hard for nines. At least this is what my experience has been with The reason she doesn't want to Particularly name it with me, so, I mean, even just yesterday, she came into, we, work from home, and she's on our back patio, and then I'm, in my office, she comes in, and I could tell that she's pretty sad, and she was overwhelmed. Well, nines don't want to be a burden to anyone. And she's got a whole host of stories where her needs were a problem in her family of origin. And so she learned to isolate and disassociate from very early on. And so for her to come into my office saying, I, I need attunement means that I'm inconveniencing another person, which is the last thing that a nine wants to be is a burden to other people. They're trying to make them all happy.

Adam: 21:02

I know. I know. But that's huge. I mean, you just, you just gave us the example because addressing avoidance, the other thing I said was asserting your needs. So for Beth to walk in your office and say, I, here's what I need. I mean, I need attunement. I need somebody to see me. I need Um, or I need to confront you Ooh, that's, that's, you talk about step, you

Jeff: 21:29

Yeah, that's another world. That's another planet. Like might as well be Mars. We're just trying to get to the moon here, Adam. We're having trouble with that. And now you're talking about going to Mars.

Adam: 21:38

Exactly. Well, it all feels very vulnerable. we're talking about in this episode is that vulnerability is the, is the hard thing, but that's what anxiety is inviting us And all of these are going to always feel counterintuitive. I mean, they're all counter formation practices. You've got to go The opposite way. Usually you've got to go right. You've got to go. You've Got to go right into the cave,

Jeff: 22:00

the let's talk about type ones then.

Adam: 22:03

Yeah, let's do it. So type ones, um, you know, their response to anxiety is going to often be to become more perfectionistic. Like the louder, the inner critic and the more aggressive, the inner critic, um, that's, that's, that's your anxiety. And

Jeff: 22:20

that shows up towards themselves or towards or towards organizing life so that the critic can show up in a variety of different ways. But if there's this fixation on getting it right and trying harder to get things right putting the pressure on other people to join them in getting it that's anxiety.

Adam: 22:41

Yes. And it harms their relationships because it harms their working relationships because they're micro, they become micromanagers, they become perfectionistic. So there's, there's no tolerance for mistakes. Um, And, uh, and, and, and it hurts their, their personal private relationships because of their intolerance of mistakes and their refusal to hear that they can't, like they can't hear other people's opinions or suggestions or thoughts because they're, it's, you know, my way, the right, way, all the way, my way or the highway. So that's not who they really are. It's not who they want to be. It's a part of them that is working out of anxiety. And so if, if they can learn to instead practice self compassion. And embrace the gift of imperfection. Um, be kind to yourself. You know, you, you have, you have no business treating yourself worse than God would So, so many of my one friends are like, they'll say out of their left brain, Oh, I know God loves And they'll say with their right brain, but I'm an idiot and I can't do anything. Right. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Those two things can't live together, you know? So you, you don't get to say God loves me and I'm made in his image and I'm beautiful and I'm, I'm an idiot and I'm, I suck. And like, you can't, you, you can't do that. So, uh, be kind to yourself. You know, it's that Andy Kobler's try softer. Um, and, and, and embrace the gift of imperfections, you know, um, it's okay. Nothing, nothing in this world is perfect. There's no such thing as balance outside of mathematics. Everything is tension. What's that Leonard Cohen line? There's a crack in everything, but that's how the light gets in.

Jeff: 24:22

I've not heard that before. That's awesome.

Adam: 24:24

Yeah, yeah, So it's like, okay, there's a crack in everything. Okay. That's true. And that's also how the light gets in. So be the light, focus on the light. Uh, don't dismiss the cracks. It's okay. You have a gift of being a reformer. We need your, we need your gift, but, but you can't obsess. You can't, again, exaggerations If you exaggerate the crack and everything, that's your anxiety. If you notice a name, the crack and everything. And you move toward yourself and, and the brokenness with kindness and compassion. That's healthy self

Jeff: 25:01

Uh, well, let's move on to type twos.

Adam: 25:04

let's do it, Jeff. Yeah. Do you want to, do you want to get us going on the heart triad?

Jeff: 25:08

Yeah. So you know, what, uh, fundamentally what's causing the anxiety for the type two is, am I loved? And all of the activity that comes out of that in order to secure love and for your needs to be taken care of. For, you to have reciprocal relationship with someone where you're not the only one providing and addressing other and serving other people, but that they're taking care of you as well. And so the overcorrection would be to continue to insert yourself into other people's lives or to just. busy yourself to deaden yourself to the longing. All of those are ways of coping with the anxiety that's actually going on in your heart. it comes to the diminishment of yourself. You know, all of these are sort of, we, we talked a little bit before, um, before we started about the gospel of anxiety. It's something that I picked up on in a cohort with, uh, Steve Cuss That the, the cost of following the anxiety for the two is, they end up getting burnt out. They're exhausted. And then what comes with it comes out sideways because the resentment starts to come out is they start blaming it on other people as to why they're so exhausted. No one's taking care of themselves. I have to do it for everybody, pushes everybody away when they're trying to care for the two, whenever they're exhausted. And so they ended up with kind of this self sabotaging behavior that creates the very fear that got them to this place in, uh, in the first place. the healthier way of dealing with need is that when you find yourself overperforming in relationships is to actually begin to set boundaries, not necessarily on other people, but on yourself to provide care, even whenever there's an inclination, uh, to go and to serve and to do something. To take a step back. It's, it's almost like I always think of, uh, Peter's response, uh, at the last supper when Jesus is about to wash his feet. He says, no, let me wash your feet. And Jesus says, no, you have nothing with it. Like it, there's a certain sense where Peter needed decline. Sure. Reasonable response when you're dealing with the savior of the world. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to want to wash his feet. Sure. True. But the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and for the two to deal with the discomfort of being served, being loved and facing the fear that's actually driving the behavior.

Adam: 27:59

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yep. I think good,

Jeff: 28:02

of

Adam: 28:03

well, I think a good example of that in an image is twos, just learn how to take off the cape and, and put on the oxygen mask. Um, you know, if you find yourself needing to rescue others, needing to be there for others, needing to help others, we all, we all want to honor you for that gift. We're all super thankful. And when we need you, you're there. You are there and, and, but you have to take care of yourself. So it's as, it's as simple. It's not easy, but it's this simple. It's scheduling me time to, to recharge, to ensure your own emotional balance. You know, it's, it's learning how to say no, which by the way, It's not that you're bad. It's not that people are bad at saying no. Every, every time you say yes to something, there isn't an errant no inside that. Yes. So if I say yes to, you know, joining, um, a city basketball league for, you know, men who are age 40 to 45, uh, I'm saying no to something.

Jeff: 29:04

for that, by the way,

Adam: 29:05

I don't know. I don't, I don't know.

Jeff: 29:08

I'm not

Adam: 29:08

And what jet

Jeff: 29:09

the ball. You're like, you're a one handed

Adam: 29:10

jet Jeff's Jeff does it just for clarity for our listeners. Jeff's not using that phrase metaphorically. Like I have a small set of shoulders, so I can't carry the weight of something. He's being very literal. I have a really, really, really bad left shoulder. I can't, I

Jeff: 29:25

You got one arm to dribble, to pass, to shoot. I mean, you're just playing.

Adam: 29:29

There's a guy in our church who likes to, he's not being, he's kind of being tongue in cheek, but he likes to come up to me and I feel some, I feel some shame saying this, but there's a joke in there, but he likes to come up to me and say, Adam, is there anything you can't do? Which there's tons of things. And he knows that there's tons of things, but I always respond to him and say, yeah, lift my left arm above my head. Like I can't, I can't do it. I can't do it. Um, so, but that to bring it back to the twos, that's a good phrase Uh, no, I'm unwilling to do it, you know? And every time you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. You're saying no to time with someone, time with yourself, time with God, whatever. So it's, it's, it's, it's a simple, not easy as learning to say no and taking time to Yeah. Jeff, Jeff, you want to tell us about type three?

Jeff: 30:19

let's dive into type three, man. I am noticing dude, I, my, my cold is, it's been lingering for over a week now and I can tell like it's shaping my voice and I'm wanting to sniff and cough. I got all kinds of things going on. So sorry about my voice folks, but, uh, we'll keep, uh, we'll keep trying so for the type three, you know, the threes don't always look good. anxious, they look like they've got it together. And that's what they've learned since childhood as to how to deal with their anxiety, I want to look put together. particularly when they become parents, where they're looking for their family to join them in the effort to look like they've got it together. But it's the mask. And further distance they get from the mask, or they get from their true self and buy into the mask, Sadly, the more hyperactive, hypervigilant and overcorrection actually losing their sense of self and don't even remember what a true self And so they, they shape shift. They, they adapt to become whatever others value They're reading the room. They're reading the community. What does it look like to be Now, the strategy for the three is when you start to notice the particular image that you're trying to curate, or you start to see that your, your family or your friends are not joining in your, in your effort to look good, Is to actually be honest with what you fear in the moment. The, the fear that you, failure may be a possibility that mistakes have been made to be able to admit that you have need and that you need others in your and to stop putting the expectations on leaders around you or team members or family a great litmus test to know how anxious Now, the good news is, is that God's put in certain restraints in our lives. And so for the three, you'll start to notice that your body, start to experience some weariness, some burnout. to, like, the loneliness of the three, whenever people, you've pushed so many people away. no one, feeling like no one really knows you or cares about you. Well, that's some of the repercussions of what it means to live according to the mask to living out the anxious life. And it comes at the of yourself, of being loved and appreciated be in the presence of others who will attune to you be present with you and show you love. And that would be very difficult an anxious

Adam: 33:18

yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll jump in and say, you know, uh, one example of what it could look like to, you know, practice authenticity and rest kind of the counter formation to anxiety for the six. Um, I mean for the three is, uh, I would prioritize relationships over accomplishments. Um, There's a, there's a saying, the quality of your life and work. So notice the word work in the quality of your life and work depends on the quality of your relationships. Um, I can't remember her name, something Carnes. I think she may have founded hospice, Jeff. She, she wrote, she wrote a little, she wrote a little pamphlet and, uh, I have it back here on my bookshelf. You can read it in like 10 minutes, but it's a pamphlet on how to sit with someone when they're dying. And, um, I remember reading as a pastor years ago and, you know, one of the things she says in there is there is this human phenomenon, it's been recorded All over the world, all over the world, spoken in different languages where people on their deathbed say, they never say, I wish I would have accomplished I wish I would have worked longer. I wish I would have worked harder. The thing, top of consciousness, top of heart, pulsating in their body is relationships, relationships, relationships, who mattered most to you, who, who do you belong with and matter to, and who belongs to you and matters to you. And so for the three, it's realizing that you can never accomplish or achieve enough, and the thing that makes your life. The things that makes your life worth and worthy is the, the people right in front of you. So it's, it's, look, prioritize relationships over accomplishments is, is, is gonna calm your anxiety down quite a bit.

Jeff: 35:03

All righty. Well, let's look into the type four. the type fours, uh, when I hear of, uh, the things that fours are anxious about, um, number one, some fours will be very honest about their anxiety and they kind of wear it on their and they lead with it. Others are much more private about it. and they don't want to draw attention to their suffering. But with all that being said, what comes to mind for me when the four's anxiety is online, the imagination. projecting onto the world that anxiety and the anxiety's interpretation of relationships or circumstances. So they're, You know, the, the Stoics were, um, wrote about it, about suffering more than is necessary because worry, uh, it's not even happened yet and you're already starting to suffer. but it hasn't happened. And I think the reality is for the four suffering before it happens

Adam: 36:11

Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: 36:12

maybe, maybe that if can just. plan it, if I can feel it now, it won't hurt as I'll be able to face the disappointment, in the really no one's going to be there

Adam: 36:28

Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: 36:28

the reality is, is that rarely, uh, are those projections And it puts people in a, in a negative spot because there's no way that they're going to come because you've already pinioned hold them on what you think they believe about So you've just projected your own lies about who you are onto them. But when a four is hard as it rests, and they practice gratitude. And they start to get some emotional equanimity, emotional So we're, we're not entertaining the, the fanciful dreams about how people may or may not love us, may or may not receive us or act according to our to our desires we start to accept life and reality life and reality's terms, start to experience emotional sobriety.

Adam: 37:32

That's right.

Jeff: 37:33

And so part of this is just, I mean, simple practices like, uh, just practicing gratitude. That rather than allowing yourself fantasize about these actually put it down on paper and start writing out what is it that you're actually grateful How are people in reality showing to help that part of your heart that needs to hear that you're okay, that you are

Adam: 38:01

mm hmm, mm hmm, Yeah, look up, look up the, the neuroscience of gratitude. And the studies that have been done, uh, by Cindy stellar on anxiety and gratitude cannot co exist in the brain. It's interesting where, where anxiety and gratitude lives. And I'm, I'm off my skis here. So I'm not, I'm not a neuroscientist, but, um, I, I do know how to read. Uh, so, so I'm regurgitating, I'm regurgitating what I've read, but that, that, that, That's They, you know, they, they exist in the same neuro centers. And so it's really hard for them to live together. So that anxiety, that feeling of something's missing, that gnawing, anxious feeling of I'm inadequate and something's missing. The gratitude journal and the practice of gratitude, it's not reframing. It's not inauthentic. It's not the power of positive thinking, even. It's it's just actually the discipline of gratitude. And that alone will combat you, the emotional spiraling falling the anxiety.

Jeff: 39:07

It's scarcity.

Adam: 39:09

That's right.

Jeff: 39:09

There's not enough. And all types will deal with that idea and gratitude reminds small gifts that have been that morsels along the

Adam: 39:23

That's right.

Jeff: 39:23

remind us Well, we've got the five, six and sevens, uh, left to go here, Adam.

Adam: 39:31

Let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah. So for, for fives, you know, the overreaction to anxiety is you may see yourself going deeper into your mind. Spending more time, you know, withdrawn, more time learning, thinking, problem solving, you become more detached from reality. Um, and, and so that's, that's what You might notice. That would be an overcorrection. Again, some solitude is, is necessary and helpful, but if you're going into full blown isolation and withdrawal, that's an exaggerated response. Um, and that would be, uh, that would be an anxious reaction. So a strategy is to, you know, set limits on your isolation. Which again, it's, it's always going to feel like going into the cave and doing the thing that feels hard, the upstream practice. But if you can, if you can maintain small, but meaningful. relationships and social connections, even in the midst of your, your solitude. Um, you can, you're going to, you're going to help yourself from falling deeper into the, the emotional withdrawal and the anxiety. Um, in addition to that, I think, you know, grounding activities for the five like breath, work, meditation, those kinds of things, help them reconnect with the present moment and get. It's interesting, get back in their body. And so what fives do to survive is they, they go out of their body. We all, we all are going out of our body. We all have escapists, you know, strategies to get outside of our body and that's, and the anxiety that's there, but they, they do it by going into their heads. And so the, the breath work, meditation, those kinds of practices bring you back into your body so that you can heal. What is the anxiety within? Um, rather than be controlled by it and live reacting to it. So, Jeff, you have any thoughts?

Jeff: 41:21

got a very strong five part to my heart. And, For a while now, I've been walking I'll walk for most days. I walk about an hour each But I've stopped listening to books. it's not that listening to books is bad. It's habit to be in and Constantly learning, but I would realize that I would bring anxiety to And that would translate into this kind of hyper focus or, or over performing, uh, in our Wanting to bring change or insight into But whenever I transition to listening to music and I, um, one of my favorite ones to listen to is a band called, I think it's mute. M U E. And we've joked about it by family joke. We laugh at me because of it because it's, techno marching band

Adam: 42:25

Yeah. You introduced me to this band. It's incredible.

Jeff: 42:28

and it's it's super fun, but it's very rhythmic and it's interesting because I'm much more attuned So, you know last October I had a heart incident and that led to getting multiple bypass And so I I'm much more attuned to my breathing heart rate feeling of my feet hitting the pavement Even the just the experience of being outside for that period Um, I'm much more attuned to my body. I, I will say I, I don't walk with Beth or other people. Usually I just but I would imagine even for the five that even a couple, the couple walking with a spouse or with a family just to get you in tune out of your head, and into reality your body with another person. can be incredibly anxiety reducing connected with other people and to kind of get out of trying to take care Now we've talked a lot about sixes already, but, uh, you know, Adam, if we want to share a little bit more about the six world, uh, where, please, please do so and fill us in on how it is that you have mastered your anxiety and live the serene life.

Adam: 43:51

Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm better at teaching this than I am doing it. And, uh, but so I don't know if I've mastered but I will say that there is an overcorrection response to anxiety that I've noticed in myself and in other sixes. Um, and it's a complicated response. Sometimes it, it's, it's this reaction of blind loyalty, You know, to a person or ideology. Uh, sometimes it's, uh, um, You get paralyzed by overthinking. That's an overcorrection. If you find yourself overthinking, uh, worst case scenario, fantasizing, and you're stuck, um, that's, you know, you're spun out and stuck in anxiety. Or this is an interesting response, Jeff, but sometimes sixes just become rebellious. And that's, that's, that's like the eight. You know, type energy. So, you know, one to one, six might respond to their anxiety by becoming rebellious toward a person or a system. Um, and so, you know, that's, that, that, that's how, you know, the over overreaction or overcorrection of, of a six can show up when they're anxious. Now, a strategy for that is, um, focus what's on what's inside your control rather than what's outside of your control. Um, and then developing self trust and self affirmation. You know, um, Six is anxiety often comes from, from this insecurity or self doubt. And then just from the fear of the unknown, like I don't have control of, I don't, I don't know, and I don't have control of what I don't And so, um, you know, to, to, to limit that, to limit the worst case scenario thinking you can practice, there's a healthy way to do cognitive reframing, you know, challenging the negative beliefs, uh, challenging the, the distorted beliefs, reminding yourself of what is true. Um, and then find someone that you trust that can hold up the mirror and look at you and say, Hey, you, you can trust yourself. Um, one of the most helpful moments I ever had in my life was there's a mutual friend that we also have named Rich Plass. I can literally remember where I was standing in Louisville, Kentucky, when Rich put his hand on my chest, he just stuck his hand out and put his hand on my chest and said, Adam. You can trust And for a moment, I felt like Superman. I felt like I could, you know? Now, unfortunately, I, I haven't stayed in that same place of confidence, but I come back to that moment often, and I remind myself, okay, I can trust myself, you know? Um, so what about you, Jeff, as a six? What, what's, what's going on in you as we talk about the six and their response

Jeff: 46:30

of the things that, because I just had this flywheel of a mind can just go, go. I'm ruminating on the same things. I will find myself ruminating and coming up. I mean, we're, we're creating a new course for people who want to use the Enneagram in relationships. was literally half asleep planning out how to. how to structure this particular experience and I can't, I don't remember what I was thinking. I just remember waking up like, what have you been, what do you do? Cause I I'm anxious. I'm scared about And my mind is running. of the things that's really helped are, are actually written prayers, but the two that come to mind that I use the most are one, the and number two is the Lord's prayer. there, There just happens to be a number of people that I'm, I'm mindful of in our neighborhood are going through very difficult even medically for And so I, I don't know what to pray, but when I can pray, I pray the, the Lord's prayer.

Adam: 47:47

Mm-Hmm.

Jeff: 47:50

because, uh, because of how it's, encompasses so much, even the things that I might not ordinarily be I can eloquently and try to form this nice and what gives me a sense of boundaries what you were just saying that I, I'm not superhuman. I don't know it I don't know all the specifics So as I walk by their house, I simply just And I do that with a simple childlike don't know what to pray But I know that when Jesus said you don't know what to pray. Here's what to pray

Adam: 48:32

That's right. That's right. That's right. It's funny that you talk about the prayers. I have a, on my desk, I keep this prayer of surrender and it's, it's from my friends over at the Eden Project, but it, it says, I'll just read it. It's really short, but it says, uh, blessed Trinity, grant me the grace to open up to your presence, receive what you give, release what you take. lack what you withhold and do what you require. And I find my, it's, it just puts you in a posture of open And I find myself that when I'm in this posture, it's hard to stay. overwhelmed by anxiety. I'm not saying the anxiety just magically goes away, but I'm saying it creates some healthy space between me and the anxious part. Um, so I agree with you, Jeff, on those prayers, uh, can be super helpful and grounding. Well, should we talk about sevens?

Jeff: 49:28

let's round it off with type sevens

Adam: 49:30

Let's do it. We save the most fun for last. Um, yeah, so sevens, you know, the overreaction response to anxiety is maybe to, to, to become a, uh, A bit flighty, you know, to, to, to just be the inability to be present. I've what's next. I've got to stay stimulated, you know, and I've got to search for new people, new experiences, have more fun, stay entertained. You may find yourself lashing out. Um, you know, maybe even demanding that, that, you know, you get the satisfaction and, and the, the fun and freedom that you desire. So you don't want any kind of restraints on you. Those are all evidences of anxiety and kind of overreactions or overcorrections rather to your anxiety. Um, a more helpful strategy and more helpful response would be to, uh, tolerate discomfort, which is really, really tough, hard to do, uh, and practice mindfulness. Practice being present. That's what I mean by mindfulness. Um, you know, the anxiety only gets kicked up and, and, and it throws gas on the anxiety, on the fire of the anxiety to constantly seek stimulation. Cause there's no, it's never enough. And so the more you, the more stimulated, stimulation or experiences you seek, the more you want, the more the anxiety grows. And so to practice being still and being present, Again, it's coming back into your body rather than escaping your body. I know that's the fear. That's the vulnerability. That's the cave. I don't want to go in there. I don't want, I don't want to deal with what's in but that's actually the way forward, uh, is to, to tolerate the moments of discomfort where you return home to yourself, back inside your body. and face what you've and face the feelings you have about what you've lived and be honest about it. Um, and so, you know, there's mindfulness apps, there's group work you can do. There's, I would find, find a coach, find a therapist, you know, find a spiritual director, someone that can help you just learn to be still and do, do this healthy introspection. Uh, so Jeff, what are your thoughts about a seven?

Jeff: 51:44

Yeah, the one thing that I am mindful of in my relationships with sevens, uh, that oftentimes I, don't feel that they're present. They might be frenetic with something else that's going on, but there's, there's like an over functioning, a hyper energy that they bring don't feel like they're there with Now, the sad thing is, is that Sevens create their own loneliness they're, they're not sitting with people. Now, there are some types of seven that try to avoid, the negative experiences or problematic, disruptive by leading the team, leading the group of friends, the sad thing is that they're not present to them

Adam: 52:40

That's right.

Jeff: 52:41

to remember that you and your peers are, they are the gift. They are the experience that what you're longing for is to someone to be, to sit And what they're longing for is not your great fun ideas, just to be present for you to be present with them because you have the opportunity, the strength to bring light very difficult, uh, circumstances. it's not this hyper energy to go and and to get things done. more about being at rest. having a non anxious lives of others and experiencing from other people.

Adam: 53:26

That's right. Yeah.

Jeff: 53:30

we hope you found, uh, this particular, these three episodes helpful and, you know, in light of all the things that are going on culturally and personally, uh, and relationally, there's a lot of transition happening and we hope that you come to an understanding of how your anxiety is particular type and that you've learned something about those around you that you're in a relationship about how their anxiety and so we hope you found some sense of direction, you know, give us some feedback. We'd love to see your comments and to help us understand, maybe even help others to understand how anxiety and what you've done about your anxiety, how it shows up in your life. So be sure to leave us some comments, uh, and be sure to like and subscribe, um, so that you can get more content as we were planning for the holidays and the podcast coming up. Um, if you do have questions, don't forget, you will always reach out to us at info at your enneagram coach. com. We'd be happy answer your questions there. Um, and so, uh, Adam, thanks again for hanging out with me and talking about this. Uh, and I really do hope that people have been encouraged and have a little bit of direction on how to deal with, uh, their own anxiety in a particularly anxious season of

Adam: 54:41

it's been a pleasure.