Beth: 0:00

I think you would agree with me that there is no one size fits all approach to parenting, right? Every mom and every dad parents differently. I mean, maybe you're the type of mom or dad who shows up with boundless optimism and burst of creativity, or maybe you're the anchor of the family with unwavering loyalty and impressive patience. But you might be the parent who confidently guides your family with sage wisdom. Or maybe the parent who is deeply in touch with their feelings and their child's feelings. Now you may be one of these parents and still you feel lost, uncertain, or just trying to survive. The struggles we face as moms and dads and with ourselves and our children, it's as diverse as our own personalities, right? Well, that's why the Enneagram is a game changing tool and applying it to parenthood. Well, hey everyone, I'm Beth McCord, and this is your Enneagram Coach, the podcast. And I wanted to take you back in time into episode 83, because I wanted you to hear from two couples that have used the Enneagram in their own parenting and how it's been a game changer for them. And so we not only wanted to share a little bit more of our perspective, but we wanted to bring in some people who have been using the Enneagram. in their parenting style along with their spouses. And so we have some dear friends with us that are going to help navigate the way. So we have a certified Enneagram coach through YEC, Libby Cole and her husband, Tyler.

Jeff: 1:37

That's right. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Um, tell us a little bit more about yourself. So tell us about your Enneagram types, how long you've been married, and then tell us a little bit about your kids.

Libby: 1:49

Sure. So we are going on 13 years of marriage this December and congratulations. That's pretty nice. Thank you. And we were together for five years before that, so ever since we were babies ourselves. Um, but I am an Enneagram type eight and I am a full-time Enneagram coach, thanks to YEC. Yay.

Tyler: 2:15

Oh, that's awesome, Phil. I'm Tyler. I'm a type 3, um, you know, learn that obviously when Libby became a Enneagram coach and, um, I'm a nurse practitioner.

Libby: 2:28

And we have 2 kids, um, and I know you all can't see this out in the podcast world, but Tyler is a redhead and we were blessed with 2 redheaded children also. So we have, I know I am outnumbered because I am not a redhead, but we have a seven year old little boy named Whitten, and we have a five year old little girl named Ellison.

Jeff: 2:49

That's great to hear that you guys are in the mix of it as parents. Uh, two kids, that's, that is so fun and so awesome. Uh, how long have you known your Enneagram types? How long have you been interested in the Enneagram?

Libby: 3:03

We've really been working with it and really practicing the growth of it for a little over a year now. So we're still early on in it. We're still learning and growing, but have really been incorporating it for a little over a year.

Jeff: 3:20

Now one of the things that happens when people find their Enneagram type, uh, there's typically two questions that come up next one What is my spouse? Or a significant person in my life whether it be a friend or a parent and then number two, what are my kids? It was that similar for you guys?

Libby: 3:40

It was, and interestingly enough, our seven year old has really taken a shine to it. And so he has typed himself and he also likes to think about all the other types. And, um, he actually just took over my Instagram account for this series because he loves the Enneagram so much also.

Jeff: 3:59

Okay. Now please, what's your Instagram handle? Because I'm sure everyone would love to see a seven year old. Particularly a redhead, if I understand it correctly, wax eloquently on the Enneagram.

Libby: 4:11

Yeah, my handle is at Enneagram to expand because my company is expand coaching and consulting.

Jeff: 4:20

Enneagram to expand.

Libby: 4:21

And he has done real, For all of the texts and about how they play video. There we go That

Jeff: 4:28

is excellent. That is so awesome Tell me this what has been one of the insights that you've gained into your not just Your kids and their personality types, but how you parent how what insights has the enneagram given you as to how you parent?

Tyler: 4:47

Um, so for me being a type three Hey It was a big realization to know that, you know, as a achiever, you know, I have high expectations of myself and then others. Also, um, and so it was really eye opening to see how that can translate into my kids and how they don't. you know, need to have that on them all the time. Um, so, you know, I have to be mindful of that and just try not to be so hard on them.

Jeff: 5:18

You know, Tyler, I was just talking with one of my dear friends. Matter of fact, he's the one who originally gave us Richard Roar's book on the Enneagram in 2001, but he's visiting with us. And, uh, we were just talking, um, now that we have young adult children, uh, anytime they make a mistake, we just automatically assume it's because of us. And, and he's, you know, my friend made a comment. He's, uh, another mentor of his said that, you know, your, your kids can't save you. Um, and I thought, Oh, that is such a provocative question for some statement to someone. How does it ever feel like that when your kids fail, that somehow that relates to your type as a three.

Tyler: 6:02

Yeah, definitely. So, I feel like, you know, succeeding in school is always really important to me. And so therefore, you know, I kind of expect that or want that for them as well. Um, sports also really difficult to watch because, you know, obviously you kind of want them to be the best win. Not always. Right.

Beth: 6:25

Get with them all. That is great.

Jeff: 6:27

I mean, that is, isn't that one of the interesting things? Like I, one of my favorite parenting books was by Dan Allender on how children raise parents and that our children are a gift to us for something learning about ourselves. And so, I mean, what is that like for you to seeing, I have all these values and expectations and desires and my, God's going to use it in my life to help me to become a better man.

Tyler: 6:54

I mean, now that I kind of can, you know, relate to that, it is eye opening. And I just, you know, tried to remind myself to be grateful for them and my family and, you know, just use that, like you said, like as a kind of warning call, I guess. Now,

Jeff: 7:12

Libby, what about you? What insights have your wonderful children given you about being an eight?

Libby: 7:20

Right. Um, well, Good learning about parenting and the any of them together, the words that come up for an 8 are demanding, controlling, intimidating. I love the tone that you're saying there. That's awesome. Well, it was kind of like a sucker punch to me. You know, I felt really convicted by those words because I realized. A, that they were true. Um, and also that it was something that I wanted to try to work on. So once that was brought before me, I decided I needed to set out to kind of move away from those tendencies. Um, and I know I don't get it right all the time. Um, but I think with anything with the Enneagram or any self improvement, you know, being mindful, being intentional about it, That's going to help you move into a healthier place. And I think,

Beth: 8:11

you know, the, the biggest thing I've seen since our kids are now 23 and 21, what I've seen the most is it's not that kids want you to get it right and be perfect. Well, okay, let me take that back. Sure. They would love that. But I think we all are in reality and we know on this side of heaven, that's not going to happen. What they're really looking for is us, Uh, to own our own stuff and to apologize, like a real apology that just means the world like, um, a, I did this B. I know it hurt you and see, will you forgive me? And is there anything I can do to restore that changes the game? Because so many times kids believe it was their fault when a lot of times. It's on us. You know, I know a lot of times my kids really didn't do anything, but I was frustrated or stressed about something else. And I reacted through my nine type and they got, you know, the bad and the sick. Now, sometimes the kids, they do their stuff, but I'm still responsible for how I react to them. Even if they're doing something that is not. Um, correct. And so with that, I'm just really so thankful to hear how the Enneagram has just brought you guys so much awareness that you can enter into that conversation. And I know for Jeff and I, and I love to hear from you guys too, is that when we talk about our types and how we're parenting one, just kind of just talking about it and being aware, but also. You know, helping each other to see where we're weak, um, and also, but where we shine has been really beneficial. How has, uh, that been helpful for you guys to cheer each other on? Like, Hey, you, you're amazing as, as a parent, when you do this, but also how can you guys, um, help each other, not call each other out in your weakness as in shame and condemnation, but in a way of encouraging them to grow. What has that been like for you guys?

Libby: 10:01

Yeah, I'll jump in just because you were talking about the apologies, Beth, and I think that that's 1 of the places that I struggle as an 8, because as you're saying that, I hear vulnerability vulnerability, and that is always hard. Right? And so sometimes I catch myself almost. dismissing their emotions and kind of telling them, just get over it or, you know, stop crying. And I have to stop myself and think, no, we need to identify those emotions. We need to talk about it and let them feel what they're feeling instead of just telling them to dry it up and move on. And I think that that was partially my lack of vulnerability and being in that space. space with them, and I don't want to encourage them to not show that vulnerability themselves.

Beth: 10:47

It's true. The more that we are vulnerable and transparent around our kids about what we're learning and growing, the more that they're going to have emotional intelligence because they're seeing it happen in front of them. Now they may not be able to do it. Themselves right away. But over time, you're going to see that they're going to have the same understanding of vocabulary that you demonstrated, just like everything that we do, you know, like whatever our kids are wonderful interpreter, wonderful observers, but terrible interpreters. And so we want them, we want to help them to not only observe what's going on, but how to interpret it. So, and then what you're probably going to be able to do because you're an Enneagram coach now is to help them to nuance their heart so that they can apologize. More specifically, according to what what's happening for them versus just a blanket old. I'm sorry, you know, well, okay, that's great. But what are you sorry for? Are you fully aware of what this is or what, how it's impacting your brother or your sister or us? Um, but if we don't demonstrate it first, they're going to feel on the defensive. But if we can show vulnerability, um, because we know that we're safe in Christ.

Jeff: 11:56

Um, what's that been like to pursue your own growth, recognizing your weaknesses, uh, but to do so in front of your kids?

Tyler: 12:13

Yeah, so I love this. I mean, it

Jeff: 12:18

really is a fun personality tool, and it's great when you first entered it. And then when you start to use it, you're like, Oh, wait a minute. This is dealing with core issues in my life. So, yeah,

Tyler: 12:30

I mean, definitely what hits home with me is, I work a lot. I buried myself in work. Um, I, you know, I hold a full time job to part time jobs. Just, you know, it's just something I do, you know, um, and so being an immigrant 3, it really was eye opening to me to realize, like. I guess why I do it, obviously, but then to also recognize when I'm doing it too much and it's creating a problem, you know, especially with family, especially with kids. Um, so I have to really find myself being intentional about that. So 1 thing that we started, you know, was it'll work Saturday. So, basically, I do nothing on Saturdays, except for a family time. It's set aside. So, Helps me fully focus on, you know, my kids, um,

Beth: 13:28

They're going to feel really cherished and loved and focused on in those Saturdays. They can look forward to, cause they're busy too with their life on the, in the, during the weeks, but to know that they've got that time with dad, it really is. Um, super special.

Jeff: 13:44

Well, and this is one of the beauties that not only marriage does it provides for us, but our kids provide us. It's almost like a thermostat of what's happening in our own heart. Uh, they're definitely the recipients of our unhealthy patterns of our type. Um, you know, Beth talks a lot about the blind spot path. It's the number that we go to for those relationships that we are the closest to. Um, Transcribed by https: otter. ai And oftentimes when I'm working something out in my interior world, it comes out sideways towards Beth or it comes out sideways towards the kids. If I'm able to model what humility and vulnerability look like and being a recipient of grace, giving myself grace, but also, uh, focusing my attention. To grow that becomes a model for our kids I mean how many of us would love just to hear our parents admit to their mistakes like just say you're sorry That's all I'm asking for at this point but can you imagine what it would have been like that I This is a pattern for how I relate to you and I'm sorry about that and I want to improve on that man I mean that was just That would sound like a miracle.

Beth: 14:55

And I think the great thing is that the Enneagram lets us know specifically what we're going to struggle with. And that's what you guys were just kind of saying this as a, Hey, I hear, I see these words and yes, that's me. But we also don't want to lose sight on where we're so strong in our personality, like how we reflect Christ in a unique way. Um, so talk about that. What are some really like incredible attributes that you bring as a parent to your kids?

Libby: 15:22

Um, well, as an eight, I am fiercely supportive of them. I mean, I will support them, protect them, provide for them, you know? And so I really, they know that I am there no matter what, like I am their biggest cheerleader and I also really want them to be their own people. I want them to take responsibility. I want them to be strong individuals. And so, you know, I'm helping to foster an environment where they can do that. Um, I am very structured, and so I think that, you know, that is good for Children, I believe, to have some structure and to know that they have that stability and security. Um, but I just love watching them thrive. Um, and our son, I don't think I said earlier, he thinks he's a one, um, and he's seven. So I understand fully that that is still developing. He's still exploring that that's what he relates to the match the most. And so I really try to, um, you know, speak affirmations over him and tell him that he is loved and, you know, make sure that. That that inner critic doesn't get too much of him and, um, that even when he makes mistakes or things happen, that he is still loved. And so, you know, we've been really mindful that with that, we think our 5 year old might be a 7 or an 8. We'll see, um, she's, she's pretty wild and fun and out there so far, but she's still 5. Um, so we try to just, you know, have fun with her and love on her, but I do think. You know that eight protector Provider really comes in big with me as like the mom. I mean you you brought

Jeff: 16:53

up one of the significant things of the enneagram Is the idea that your kids are a different type than you? And they need different things than you do as parents and they need different things

Beth: 17:04

From each other. That's right. Yes,

Jeff: 17:07

and so to to to realize that That your type one child is going to wrestle with an inner critic That there there's divided loyalties. I I know my mom loves me, but I still feel like i'm a failure It's very difficult, but as parents, to be able to emotionally coach your children, not according to what you want them to be or what, um, what you think should happen, but according to their Enneagram type is revolutionary for kids to think that, yeah, my parents saw me, they understood me. Uh, well, Tyler, what about you? What is it, what's something that as a three that you bring to your parenting that is just amazing? Thank you. I mean, it's all amazing. I mean, you're, you're, you're killing it. So thank you. Thank you

Tyler: 17:55

Um, so I think as a three definitely, I think it's that I set a strong foundation on work, eth work ethic. Um, you know, I really feel like it's important to succeed and to be able to, um. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm looking for, like, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, but, you know, you put in the work to be able to get what you want. You know, you have a goal you put in the work towards that. Um, and then, you know, the fun thing that I think is cool is as a 3, we always know the latest trends. So, you know. I always have the coolest stuff. Um, clothes, you know, all that stuff. Our son actually, when he was in preschool, won best dressed. Yes! I love it. Let's be

Jeff: 18:46

honest, Tyler, you won.

Libby: 18:53

He was cute in his tiny polo outfit, you know, and

Jeff: 18:56

he

Libby: 18:57

won a superlative for it, so there you go.

Jeff: 19:01

I don't think I've ever won a

Beth: 19:06

superlative. This is why I love talking about these things, because it's so opposite of who Jeff and I are as parents. And that's not a good, right, bad, you know, thing it's, it is what it is. You know, we had friends that are two type nines, uh, they're a married couple and they were on our team and they were talking about how they parent their kids and pray for them at night. Yeah. You know, we pray that our kids will have empathy and gentleness and kindness and our type eight, uh, event planner. There she goes. What? Oh, man,

Jeff: 19:40

I

Beth: 19:41

pray that they're a warrior and that they're no be, no, all started laughing because that, you know, God has called us to reflect him in, in his glory and the way he has given us attributes, um, that reflect him. But we definitely have to be mindful of when those derail and get misaligned and to own those parts of us to ask for forgiveness, um, so that we can. And then steward our kids and how God has created them. And that can be so challenging when they're very different than us. And actually, sometimes even when they're the same, cause I know Nate is a six and you're a six Jeff. And there's been, there's been times where it's like, man, you totally get them. And then there's times because you get him, it frustrates. Well, even

Jeff: 20:24

before something happens, I anticipate it. I will say on the, it, it caught my attention when you're talking about. Trends and dress like I my uh apparel and my strategy for Is what polos is sam's club going to offer these greg norman polos every year? Like that's what I wear. That's my

Beth: 20:48

And then I get like I get a shirt and i'm like, oh that works great how many colors can I get so yeah And I

Jeff: 20:55

remember a son he was in college and he needed some shirts. I'm like, hey, do Take these and he gave them all back like that. Like that's not what I want. Yeah So yeah, I don't offer that gift. So I need to learn many other gifts. I have many other gifts. Yes Or polos, aren't it? Yeah

Beth: 21:16

Well, it's been so fun. But before we go, let's just wrap it up. I would love for you guys just to give a word of encouragement to other parents that are wanting or are using the Enneagram and their parenting approach from a gospel centered perspective. What is some encouraging words you could give to them?

Tyler: 21:34

Um, so as a type three, I definitely think it's important to remember to be present in the moment and practice gratitude. For what we have

Beth: 21:44

that is

Libby: 21:44

really good and I also think as an eight, but really just anyone like your parenting can be a really great, like, training ground for your own growth. Right? Because your kids aren't judging. You like, they're going to love you unconditionally anyways. And so as an 8, being vulnerable with them, practicing patience with them and making sure that I'm connecting more to my heart when I'm with them is really important, but it can almost be like this. Safe space to kind of try on some of those growth practices that we want to put into place for ourselves

Jeff: 22:17

You know, there's many ways in which people have talked about uh kids particularly the passages in the bible about kids that God in act 17 tells us that he's chosen the times and places and the seasons in which we live That he knit us together in our mother's womb. We need to recognize that our kids are a gift to us Not just their presence but Really, they're sanctifying presence in our life, like to reflect back to us as parents our need for Jesus. The Enneagram is never going to help you to know, observe, and transform in a way that you'll never need Jesus. There's always going to be a weakness there that you're going to need to cry out for help, but that's a good thing, and the Lord knows it, and intends it, and The good news is that God is not surprised by our parenting strategies, both good and bad. He's fully aware of all of it. And yet he intends to glorify us as trophies of his grace. We're so thankful that you guys have chosen to spend some time with us and be honest with us about parenting as an eight and three. And if you're eight and three parents out there, be encouraged because the Lord has great intent for you.

Beth: 23:28

Well, Debbie, tell us one more time where people can find you. Again, my company is Expand

Libby: 23:32

Coaching and Consulting. Um, I offer individual couple and group coaching and my any, or my Instagram is at Enneagram to expand.

Beth: 23:44

Well, thank you guys. And blessings to you as you continue this journey and growing as your kids actually raise you. Hey guys, we are back with another couple on Enneagram and Parenting. We've got Toya and Melvin. Hey guys, how are you? We're doing good. How are you guys? Good. Well, tell us a little bit about yourselves, where you're from, your family, your Enneagram type. Uh, before we dive into more questions.

Toya: 24:10

Alrighty. I am originally from Muskegon, Michigan, and we currently live in Huntsville, Alabama, and my type is type four wing three.

Melvin: 24:20

Yeah. I'm Melvin Poplar, the husband and my type is five. And five.

Jeff: 24:28

Nice.

Melvin: 24:28

Yeah. It's so I found out a lot about myself.

Jeff: 24:33

Tanya is prompting. I mean, was she the one that got interested into the Enneagram first?

Melvin: 24:39

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeff: 24:42

Yeah. So

Beth: 24:42

tell us a little bit about that story. You know, when did you guys learn about the Enneagram and how did it evolve to where you are now?

Toya: 24:50

You know, I, um, had friends ask me if I knew what my Enneagram number was for about maybe two years prior to me actually looking into it. And when I did each time that I took a test, I tested as a two and I was fully convinced that I was a two until I read the description for the four. And I was like, Oh my goodness, this is me from head to toe. So I had a good friend who came alongside me, who's a coach. And I told her, I said, I don't understand how I could have so much self awareness. I'm sorry, so much emotional, like intelligence concerning other people, and then still have like this blind spot concerning myself. So I was just in a really hard place. And she began to describe, you know, the traits of a four to me. And it just, I felt so vulnerable and exposed that it was a gift. She said, I thought you were for just based off of how you dress, but I want you to have it that on your own. So I'm so thankful to have had such a healthy coach to come alongside me

Jeff: 25:54

now. And then whenever you had this amazing insight regarding yourself, uh, as we've mentioned before, typically we immediately start to ask questions. Well, what's my spouse or the significant people in my life and what are my kids? So, uh, Melvin, what, what was that like when Toya introduced it to you?

Melvin: 26:13

Um, to be honest, I, I was like, what is this, you know, and, and well, the more I read about fives, then the more it makes sense that I, you know, I, I really wasn't that, um, into it, uh, at first and she, um, she, she kind of explained a lot to me and I'm still learning a lot, you know? Um, and so. But a lot of the tendencies are me, you know, I have a large tendency to compartmentalize and

Jeff: 26:49

yes,

Melvin: 26:50

uh, when I was reading about parenting and some of my tendencies, they are true. I, I,

Jeff: 26:56

yeah.

Melvin: 26:57

You know, with our kids, I tend to be, um, very intense and, uh, I, I, the word isn't really controlling, but authoritative. Authoritative would probably be better.

Jeff: 27:10

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Melvin: 27:11

And, and, um, and that is me all and about feelings when it comes to feelings and me expressing them. I can com compartmentalize very well. And yeah, in terms of our children. Um, you know, we have two daughters and three sons and, uh, I, I, um, well, my daughters, I used to just, you know, when they started getting emotional and stuff, it was, You know, now I understand why I would, you know, like, why can't you just turn this off? It's not productive, but I know that I know why.

Beth: 27:51

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and yeah, so then tell us your, your kids ages and, you know, and are they old enough to know the Enneagram? And if so, what's that been like? Tell us a little bit more about them.

Toya: 28:05

Okay, so we have three adult children. It's like we have two sets of kids. They are ages 18, 20 and 23 and older to, um, know their type. We have a son who is a four and then we have a daughter who's a four wing five and that has been super eye opening for us to see, um, you know, components of our own personality reflected and then heard. Incredible brilliance and uniqueness shine through. Um, and then our 18 year old, she's an eight. Well, I'm sorry. She's 18. So she's shaping up like a solid eight right now. Um, Then our younger three are ages 11, 12, and 13.

Beth: 28:54

So what has it been like for you guys to learn about your type and see your parenting styles? What have you learned the most, uh, maybe just recently about your type and how you parent from that type?

Toya: 29:05

You know what, Beth, I've learned, um, through the awareness of the Enneagram just coupled with radical grace, Is, I no longer use shame to try to control my kids, but I use grace to console them.

Beth: 29:22

Yeah.

Jeff: 29:24

Now, how is that? What's that look like for your own personal journey as a four? And how does that relate to extending grace to yourself and then extending grace to your kids? That's a

Toya: 29:34

good question. You know, Jeff, I've got a great story about that. Um, just diving deep into. you know, the wounding childhood message of a four, I realized along my journey to certification that I, for one, my mom's a five. So my observation was if Melvin is capable of loving me so well, rather than me believe this, This message that says, my mom has no interest in me. Why not just express that to her that that's what I've always longed to hear. And so I called my mom one day, I had a really raw conversation and shared with her how, because I'm a mom, I know that she loves me. In my head, but I never felt it in my heart. And

Beth: 30:22

it

Toya: 30:23

wasn't that to her, she just rose to the occasion and I was blown away because I thought people are just people like I've made my mom out to be this boogie monster in the closet. And the reality is is that she was a little girl with her own childhood messages. And so that was super eyeopening and our younger three are adopted. And I realized that if. If here I am in my mid forties, I still long to be affirmed by my mom or to know that she loved me. How much more do my boys need to know that they are so fully loved? And so I had a really, um, I had a really just heavy conversation with my boys and kind of probed their hearts to see if they might have an interest in hearing a message from their biological mother. And somehow God gave me the foresight. When I first met their biological mom to ask her to record a message to them I thought that someday they'd have questions and they would benefit from hearing in her own words And so I asked all three of them individually if they if they could talk to their mom Um, what would they say? And two of them said I would want her to know that I I love her And that I miss her and they were one two and three when we adopted them. So I was kind of shocked But

Jeff: 31:48

I could

Toya: 31:48

just see that Human desire to connect with your mom. And so my next question was if you could if you could hear her voice Would you want to and y'all I thought that maybe someday they'd be 18 or in their college years That's what I was going to save this recording for And they both emphatically said yes, and so I played it to them and their response was just tears and When I checked in with them to see how they were doing, I said, are you okay, buddy? And one of them said, yes, mama, I'm okay. Because now I know that she loves me. And so they both said, I know that she placed, she didn't give me away because she didn't love me. She gave me away because she loved me so much. And so I just, I was so thankful that here, I believe this lie my whole life, um, that sent me into myself and just. Having that insight of how much it impacted me to know that my mom loved me I wanted to give that gift to them. Yeah, so I hope that answers the question like oh man, that

Jeff: 32:56

is Incredible. I So I was adopted as well. Um, and and when I was 30 years old found my biological mother uh and had thought about it during my teen years, but one of the most interesting things that I walked away from the whole experience and she has since died and We had Started to develop a relationship, uh after we first met Um, but she had uh, she was catholic and she had a pocket rosary now They look like little coins and then it looks like a little rosary around a ring Uh with a cross at the top of it, but she carried that with her and every time she bumped into it Throughout her day, she would be reminded to pray for me. And as a type six wondering, does anyone see and can anyone help as a kid? And all my experiences to know that she was praying for me just meant the world. Now there were other aspects and insights, but that's the one that I carried with me so much. Like she, she pulled me aside after a couple of years of being in relationship again. And. Uh, she gave it to me and I, I still have it and I treasure it every time I think about it. Like it just hits right at my heart and the core of who I am as a man. And that like you were saying, mid forties and you still want to hear from mom and dad. I love you. You're doing great.

Beth: 34:21

Yes. And here in your specific way, which really is the core longing. And so the core longing of the four to hear you are loved and seen for exactly who you are special and unique. And then as a five to hear your needs are not a problem. You know, to hear that from your family would, would just usually for that, that person means the world. Melvin, does that kind of land on you that way?

Melvin: 34:42

Yeah. Yeah. One of our sons didn't want to hear his mom and we thought that was strange, but, um, I, well, I thought it was strange, but, but Toya explained it, you know, he still has, he was the oldest, you know, and so he still has some resentment and that, you know, he feels like that, And he's still angry.

Jeff: 35:06

Yes.

Melvin: 35:07

And so, so that was, you know, that was, um, it was, it's interesting, you know, for the younger three, younger two to want to hear, but the oldest not to. And that was just a different dynamic, uh, in terms of that, uh, interaction.

Beth: 35:24

Yeah.

Jeff: 35:24

Well, one of the things that the Enneagram brings to our parenting is that it helps to clarify or give vocabulary to what we're great at and what we struggle with as parents. Yeah. No, Melvin, you started to speak to this a little bit earlier about maybe a little more authoritative, uh, compartmentalized. Um, what are some strengths that you bring to your parenting as a type five?

Melvin: 35:52

Um, I would, I would say, uh, I don't know. I think it's a blessing and a curse. Sometime I will be, you know, I will be authoritative. And, and, um, but I, in a lot of ways I kept a lot of foolishness at bay, but, um, uh, still, you know, I can still be soft and I'm learning how to be, uh, less, less authoritative when my daughters, especially when my daughters are trying to reason to me because they kind of, they kind of go internal when they feel like they're not being heard. Okay. So,

Jeff: 36:32

yes.

Melvin: 36:33

So, um, I think as a strength, uh, in terms of that is to not, uh, when they, when they start talking emotional, like, uh, there was an instance when my daughter, she, she wanted to quit the band and, you know, she had been in band in high school and she was in band in college and she wanted to quit the band and it was a very emotional thing for her. And I, you know, I was just like, well, it's a scholarship. You need to stay in the band until you, you know, it was a lot of pressure, you know, it's like, I'm standing in a band only because dad wants me to stay in a band. And I'm like, I want you to be in a band because it costs money. But, and so I kind of took another approach in terms of, Uh, just encouraging her, look, I, um, why not, you know, look for other scholarships, you know, use your drawing, uh, do something to that, replace the band money. And you don't have to be in a band, you know, I'm not, I don't want you in a band just because, uh, you get a scholarship. If you get money another way, that'd be good too, you know? And so,

Jeff: 37:41

yes.

Melvin: 37:42

And so without even updating me on it, she went and, you know, And totally got a scholarship that paid for the rest of her college. And I was amazing. And, and she was like liberated feeling like, you know, she had a new lease on life because he didn't have to be in the band, but I think

Beth: 38:01

you're type eight. This is our four. This is our four daughter.

Melvin: 38:06

A lot like her mom in terms of like, And I, and I'm, I'm learning to, um, I think my strength is to, uh, not, uh, to like, even though I, a lot of times I do not get emotional with him, I can still just be quiet and, um, what's, what's the word, um, the empathy thing. That's the empathy. Yeah. My wife has helped me with some empathy training. Yes. To say, you know, I can understand how this is difficult for you, you know, and like, and actually, um, you know, use the correct language to make her feel heard and not, um, and so that way, even though by default I come compartmentalize, it doesn't mean that I can't use tools to, uh, let my daughters, let my kids in and, and be emotional and not, you know, even with my sons, you know, I, I know that they need, you know, physical touch and, and, and hugs and stuff. And so we, you know, even times when I'm like, well, they're getting old, but they still come up and hug me and say good night and stuff like that. And I'm, and I'm like, they, they need that because they're children and, you know, and, and it's, it's, it's doing something for them. So,

Jeff: 39:24

you

Melvin: 39:25

know, I, I tend to do that. I, I, I'm more conscious that I'm doing it and make sure I don't just. Cut off, you know what I mean? And so yeah,

Jeff: 39:33

well tell you what about yourself Um, tell me what what are some strengths that you bring as a type 4 mother

Toya: 39:40

I would say. Um affirming our kids uniqueness and pursuing them, um making sure that they understand that they are loved and celebrated for who they are and how they show up in the world. Um, definitely a strength. I think that just the, just the, it's amazing how much of a game changer self awareness is. Our oldest son once told me how I used to invalidate his emotion and how I would always one up him with like a story that was way sadder than his story. And so now that I can, um, see and celebrate my own divine design instead of. slipping into some shame cycle when my kids give me really honest feedback like that. It's just helping me to connect and to humanize and not go into perfectionistic mode or not go into the validating like I was only trying to help. So it's just a healthy balance to be able to See them to celebrate them and to give them the liberty to make mistakes. Um, when I'm passionate about something, I have that side of me that wants to do everything right. And I'm just grateful for the gospel that perfectionism is just way overrated.

Jeff: 41:13

Yes.

Toya: 41:13

So it's helped me to give them grace. But it's also helped me to extend grace to myself when I feel like I've blown it as a mom.

Jeff: 41:22

Yeah, so

Toya: 41:22

good.

Beth: 41:23

Well as we wrap it up, what would you guys, like what's one word of encouragement you can give to all these other parents that are out there wanting to use the insights of the Enneagram from a Gospel Center perspective? What would, what would you guys do or say as an encouragement to them? So

Toya: 41:40

as a type four, my one word would be enough and that is you are enough as a parent and enough is enough. Yeah. God gave your kids to you. You are

Beth: 41:53

enough. Yeah.

Toya: 41:54

Yeah.

Beth: 41:54

That's great. Yeah.

Toya: 41:55

So that's my, that's my affirmation is you are enough, but my accountability is already, I mean, it's also. Enough is enough. Like it's, it's enough. Your best is do your best and trust God to do the best.

Jeff: 42:09

That's right. Melvin, what about you? I

Melvin: 42:11

think mine would be, um, uh, to sum it up is, is dedication in terms of like, when, when we had our children, we dedicated them to the Lord. So it's, it's really God's responsibility to take care of our children is, and we're just stewards over that. So, um, I can't protect them at all times. I can't. I can't, um, do anything. My, my, my whole thing is just to make sure that, uh, to put the burden on the Lord and that way, It's not a, you know, I'm, I'm just praying to be the best parent that God would have me to be for my children and, and make the steps extremely, uh, easy to follow if they're

Jeff: 42:59

his, they're

Melvin: 43:00

his kids, you know, so I don't, I just kind of try and look at it like that.

Jeff: 43:06

That's awesome. Oh, thank you for sharing that what a great reminder

Beth: 43:09

And thanks guys just for being so vulnerable and sharing what it's like to be a type four and five couple type

Jeff: 43:15

I did want to ask one other question, but when we have spoken with other couples of color and One of the insights that we've come to understand is that each community kind of values certain types more than others or values them in different ways. Would you be open to answering a question about, I mean, within your community, what do you, what kind of parents are more valued or What kind of parenting strategies or parenting values are kind of elevated Over others and then maybe how your unique parenting style as from your type How that might be different does that question make sense?

Toya: 43:58

Yeah, it does make sense. Um, I think that Based on, for example, I've seen a lot of women who have been mistyped, a lot of African American women who have been mistyped as AIDS because of the stigma that they're the angry black woman, and they could be, um, they could be fives that are in a healthy place, or I've seen, People may be praised for being that protective mama bear that is the challenger who is a, and I've also seen maybe almost like a, it depends on what circle you're in. If you're in a church circle, I think that people want to like condition Everybody to be a, to like, I just want everybody to, you know, to help and to, or maybe, yeah, it's, it's interesting. I, um, in terms of parenting, I can't say what type of male parent I've seen praised because I really see, I see Melvin affirmed so much for the type of father that he is. He was the father of the year a few years back in our city. And, um, I think just his. Self reliance and his tenacity to just persevere and figure everything out is esteemed really highly. But I have a compassion and kind of a burden for, for dads who are fours, like for dads who are nines, who their voice and their presence hasn't been valued and celebrated. So, um, Yeah, it's that's that's a that's a really layered question because it all depends on the context that it's in. But that's something I would love to speak to. I think the Enneagram is an amazing tool and I would love to see it more widely spread within communities of color because I think that far too quickly, um, We can demonize and mischaracterize that which we don't understand. And yet we don't know what we don't know because couple with the gospel is liberating tool I've ever seen. And it's just that it's a tool. So, yeah, I'm sorry for that tangent, but yeah, Toya.

Jeff: 46:30

I am so grateful. Um, recently celebrated, uh, your certification, right? You just finally passed the, uh, becoming an Enneagram coach course. So we are overjoyed having you, uh, as part of the community and kind of paving away and bringing insights just like what you both have regarding your own parenting. And it's also how it relates to race and community. Uh, so grateful for your voice and all of this and willingness to take time to, to share about your experience. I mean, yikes, man, we covered a lot in this brief amount of time. You guys are awesome. Yeah.

Beth: 47:06

Wow, I hope that you guys enjoy that as much as I did. Hearing from Libby, Tyler, Toya, and Melvin, man, what differences people have in their own parenting style, but how the Enneagram can be that game changer. But as always, remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It's the gospel that transforms us. We'll see you on the next episode.