Beth: 0:00

Well, hey everyone, I'm Beth McCord, and this is your Enneagram Coach, the podcast. today we're excited to have Heather and Bruce McFadden on our show to talk about what it's like to parent from their Enneagram types.

Jeff: 0:11

So Heather is an Enneagram 4 and the host of a very popular podcast, Don't Mom Alone. She's a speaker and now she's adding to all of that and being an author to all the list of things that she does. Her husband, Bruce, is a three, and he's here as well to let us coach them through what it's like to parent from the perspective of a type four and a type three, uh, relationship. So not only are we just applying an enneagram to marriage, but now what it looks like with the kids. It's even

Beth: 0:40

more complected when we add the kids to it. Oh man, it's going to get really fun.

Jeff: 0:44

It's really super fun here, but, uh, welcome to the show McFadden's we're so glad you're with us.

Beth: 0:50

Thank you for having us.

Jeff: 0:51

Thank you.

Beth: 0:52

All right. Well, let's dive right in. And why don't you guys tell us a little bit about yourselves, you know, who you are, what you do. I know Jeff said a little bit, but let's dive a little bit further. And then how many kids you have and what are their ages?

Heather: 1:05

Well, thank you for reminding me that now I get to say author, my resume just grew a little bit. That's super fun. My wing three is very excited.

Jeff: 1:14

Do you have a name for your three wing? We've actually named all of our parts. She's a

Heather: 1:19

showgirl. She's quite a showgirl. Lucy, Audrey, one of those, yeah, she's a showgirl. Oh yeah, I totally feel that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we live in Dallas, Texas, and um, I am a professional. Licensed speech, speech, I can't even say it, speech language pathologist, uh, and did that for years before podcasting. And then, uh, we have four boys that are ages nine to 16. Wow.

Jeff: 1:46

Four boys. Four

Heather: 1:47

boys. That's amazing.

Jeff: 1:49

And, and what's, uh, what's that been like for you raising four boys?

Heather: 1:54

It's so easy. Everyone should do it. It's like a breeze, especially if you squeeze them in six years. It's so easy. Right. Exactly. No, it's been the most refining bloodbath work on my inner self that I've ever had in all my 44 years. We have

Beth: 2:10

a good friend who's raising three girls and they're ages nine, six, and five. And I think he would say pretty much the same thing, but from the other side. That's right. Yeah.

Jeff: 2:20

So Bruce, tell us a little bit about you.

Bruce: 2:23

I am in the investment business and just do my best to be a calm father. I think that is the one thing that I've learned is rarely does more intensity help a situation. So as a three. Want to achieve and I learned in many ways the best way to achieve was actually to chill out

Jeff: 2:46

Wow, yeah, we heard a great line the other day that It was a pastor who's a three and his staff tell him take the cape off Just, uh, to like, Hey, relax, we're, everything's fine. Like we, we don't need to push any harder.

Beth: 3:02

Like, like we value you. Your, your worth is so high in our, you know, in our eyes. You don't have to be the superhero.

Jeff: 3:10

Have your boys ever said, dad, just chill out.

Bruce: 3:15

I think

Heather: 3:16

they

Bruce: 3:21

would, they would have when, when I was more intense and at all, they were younger, but I think if I was still the way that I was. Um, I, I would have earned that a lot.

Heather: 3:31

And I think now it's less about the superhero. It's less about, it's, it's more task oriented.

Jeff: 3:37

Sure.

Heather: 3:38

Yeah. Forward momentum. Yep. Yeah. Energy.

Beth: 3:41

Yeah. Okay. So how did you guys discover the Enneagram?

Heather: 3:46

Oh my goodness. That's a really good question. I don't even know.

Bruce: 3:50

Well, I'll start by saying I grew up with a mom that was obsessed with industrial psychology. So.

Jeff: 3:56

Okay.

Bruce: 3:58

For being a, uh, a young kid. I mean, honestly, like 10 years old, I was taking assessments. All of us, me, I have three sisters and we did something called the Berkman, um, uh, which is great. Very, very, it's like going PhD on yourself. Um, and so obviously everybody gets exposed to Myers Briggs. Um, and, um, and I would say Enneagram has probably been more over the last. Seven, eight years, um, that I started to get more familiar with it.

Heather: 4:25

Yeah, I really have no clue where the first time I heard about it, but it just feels like it's been a part of conversations and learning and reading.

Jeff: 4:37

Do you remember finding out that, uh, that you, finding out your numbers and discovering how the NEA Yeah, what was that process like?

Bruce: 4:45

I did it as a part of a corporate retreat. The very first time, um, in fact, it's funny that you mentioned that because I had taken it and I'm a three wing two and studied that and I was like, okay, that kind of makes sense. And Heather. You, you probably were familiar with it, but one time he came back and you had been at some sort of Enneagram event and you came back and you said, I know what you are. You're a seven. I said, I'm not. I'm actually a three wing too.

Heather: 5:09

And it took me a really long time. So I was like, no, you really, you're so fun. So engaging, you're always going, going, going, and that to me was a really, you know, one of my first experiences of you don't type other people. Right? Because their behavior and why they're doing it is so vastly different. People don't believe that I'm a four because I'm the self, uh, preservation

Beth: 5:33

four. Yes, the counter type, uh

Heather: 5:34

huh. Yeah. What would they typically think you? They think I'm a six or a seven. Yeah. Yeah. That's very common. In that region. Yeah. So. Fascinating. Yeah. And if I think back to my childhood, oh my goodness, it's very helpful to have the language around four. I was told by, I have older siblings, um, I was kind of like the second set of kids and the older siblings would. Tell stories of how I cried for a year, you know, like everything was so over the top and I just very imaginative and Spent a lot of time in cemeteries And I don't meet a lot of people that they talk about that, me and my friend, I was homeschooled. And we would go to cemeteries and write down the names of people and their dates and create stories off of what we found on the headstones and I don't think a lot of people did that for fun. That's not a

Bruce: 6:26

four thing?

Heather: 6:27

No, that is. That's what I'm saying. It's a weird thing that I didn't tell people because it's so odd, but then when I found out about fours, I was like, Oh, that makes sense. It didn't bother me. Yeah, being in, I wasn't overwhelmed by the concept of a cemetery, right? I was more marveling at the connections and yes, the people and I, you know, even when you'd find like several Yes headstones next to each other like connecting the dots. Oh, they died when they were 27 and she anyway

Jeff: 6:56

Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. I don't know if I've shared that before,

Heather: 7:00

guys. I don't know. It's the first

Beth: 7:02

time. You still love me? That's great. Yes.

Jeff: 7:05

That's right. I think that's so intriguing. So Bruce, you're next. Uh, any, uh, dark hobbies you had as a kid that you've never told anyone?

Heather: 7:14

I like your story. I've never done that. I like your story, though, of how you used to play with Hot Wheels cars. Mm. And, you know, you would You wanted them to crash. So you would bang one up and you'd throw it in there to look like it crashed. I don't know if that goes with, well, if I had

Bruce: 7:29

five matching ones, I would get a hammer on one. And then when I have like car accidents, I'd throw out the good one and put in the bad one, but I don't know if that's a three thing.

Heather: 7:36

I don't know. I just thought it was very fun. That was a fun story.

Jeff: 7:39

Now, I'm curious, um, so how long have you been married? 21 years. 21 years. And 22 years. You know That

Heather: 7:50

COVID thing. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The whole year is 2020 didn't exist. I don't Yeah,

Jeff: 7:55

we're off now. Um, I'm curious. Do you Now, through the lens of the Enneagram, what do you think it was that attracted you to one another, but through the lens of your Enneagram types?

Bruce: 8:09

That's a good question. I've actually had not thought of that before. I

Heather: 8:12

think, if I think about stances, and then I think about attachment theory,

Jeff: 8:17

there's an

Heather: 8:17

element to the fact that he is in the aggressive stance, and then he is a healthy three. His parents did a really good job. He's very securely attached. That my withdrawn stance, um, or I'm Anxiously attached. I think that is so I needed I'm attracted to that because there was such confidence and he spoke so highly about other people was so positive that I hadn't experienced that. And so I was really drawn to that security. Yeah, kind of knew what he was doing, knew who he was. Yep. And knew where we were going. Yeah, like,

Jeff: 8:53

yes, that

Heather: 8:53

was absolutely What did you like about me? So

Bruce: 8:58

I I guess in my head I'm trying to like tie it to any gram, but I'm not gonna try I'm gonna leave that to you guys. Yes But I think the one of the things that drew me to Heather were her mannerisms Like just the quirkiness and maybe that is a fourth thing. I don't know but like Just I don't know just the way that she would respond to things non verbally like for whatever reason like I Was physically attracted to her mannerisms like kind of who she is my oddity Which is

Beth: 9:35

so funny Right as you were saying that she's like doing this little dance in her chair, you know Yeah, no one else can see it but us and I'm like, oh, there it is

Jeff: 9:45

She's super quirky and I love it. Was it was it was it playfulness? Was it? What did it do for you in Psy? I mean, aside from just being attractive, was it, was it comforting to you? Was it

Beth: 9:57

relaxing? It made me

Bruce: 9:58

smile.

Beth: 10:00

Uh

Bruce: 10:00

huh. Yeah. It made me smile, like it was just very, it was, um, it drew me towards her, um, and it just made me enjoy being with her.

Beth: 10:10

That's great.

Jeff: 10:11

You know, it's interesting. So as many of our listeners know, we've made 45 different marriage courses, one for each couple time. And as we were building and recording and research, all of it. And even our team, like we would get to certain couple types and like, Oh man, I don't, I don't think this could ever work. And then you get, then we would remind ourselves like, Oh no, that's their couple type. We're friends with them. They've got a great marriage. And you know, many might think that the three, four combination, like that, that would be crazy. Fours want to express themselves and express emotion and threes want to perform. Like can set aside and compartmentalize emotion so that they can get stuff done and keep moving forward like that must be a nightmare But there you are you actually found something that was really comforting to the both of you that Actually could help you to become the people God wanted you to become a fuller person. Yeah

Heather: 11:08

That makes you love me more when he's saying that because it's positive, thank you So let's talk about the dark side I didn't like that. She hung out in cemeteries

Beth: 11:26

Right, right that would have changed the game

Jeff: 11:29

Well, not as cute. So, this particular podcast, though, we're going to be talking about parenting and how the Enneagram helps to give language to, uh, why we think, feel, and behave as it relates to parenting. And so, um, What is this

Beth: 11:45

not?

Jeff: 11:46

This is not Typing your kids

Beth: 11:49

or how to raise a one, a type one child or a type two trap. Like that's not what we're here for. We're here to really talk about what is it like for us to parent through our type? You know, God created us to be our type, you know, and, and each of our types, when we're at our healthiest and aligned with the truth of the gospel, we reflect him and his glory, but. When we're misaligned or out of alignment, our parenting is also going to go in that direction, and it wreaks havoc within ourselves and in all of our relationships. You know,

Jeff: 12:19

uh, uh, Kurt Thompson, uh, he's written a number of books, um, Anatomy of the Soul, Soul of Shame. But one of the, I remember seeing a YouTube video and he's talking about attachment in the brain. But one of the things he said in passing was, is that for parents, one of the greatest gifts that you can give to your kids is to understand your own story. Because if you don't, you're going to reenact and coach your children into that story. And, by God's grace, they're gonna push back on that. They're gonna resist it. Uh, and you're going to miss the opportunity to find healing and to help them to become the people God intends for them to be, to be able to differentiate from you. And so the Enneagram helps to give language to all those things.

Beth: 13:03

Yeah. And so we've got several questions for you guys, but before we dive into the questions, I just want for everyone that's listening to be aware of the type three and the type four. So I'm going to just kind of talk about the core motivations of both types cause that will set the stage. So for the type three, they're the admirable achievers and they fear being a failure, worthless, inefficient, exposed, um, not having high regard in the eyes of others and they desire to be successful, to be admired. To, uh, be worthwhile to others, to be valuable, um, and to have high status and high regards in the eyes of others. But they struggle with the core weakness of deceit. Now deceit here means that they deceive themselves into believing that they're only the image they present to others. And so they feel like they have to embellish a certain persona. Whichever person they're around or whatever culture they're around put on a polished persona so that others will see it and admire them. So they think they're as good as their last success or their last glittering image. So they're constantly striving for that. But what they long to hear, their core longing, is you are love for simply being you. You don't have to achieve your scene. And so, that's the type three. So the type four is the introspective individualist, and they fear being mundane, plain, ordinary. Uh, their emotions cut off. They can't express their emotions or go down deep. Um, but they desire to express themselves, to know themselves fully, to be their most authentic self, to be original. Now, they struggle with the core weakness of envy and envy here means that they feel that there's something tragically flawed or missing inside them. And that when they look around, others possess a quality that they feel like they're lacking. And so, In order to, in a sense, win other people's approval and love and affection and to be seen and understood, they put on or they pull out within themselves this unique part of themselves, this very special part for others to see and love. What they long to hear is you are seen and loved for exactly who you are, special and unique. Now in just saying those two, do those resonate with you guys? And if so, how?

Bruce: 15:22

I can say that's spot on for me. The, the good and the bad, right? Right. Sure. We'll talk about that. I

Heather: 15:29

was, I was reading that out to him from what you all sent us. And my son was listening in and they were all tuning in when I got positive. And then the second it went negative, they both shut it up. He goes, why are you saying that about dad? Don't say that about dad. I was like, I'm not, I'm just reading.

Jeff: 15:48

That's fascinating. I accept

Heather: 15:51

it. He accepts it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that you've owned that. Yeah. Much better. Yeah.

Jeff: 15:57

Well, the first question I wanted to ask, just in general, where do you feel like you shine in your parenting style?

Heather: 16:08

I mean, I feel. I feel. Do you, I'm curious if the heart triad starts sentences with I feel and the other ones start with I think. It's very common. It is

Jeff: 16:18

common, and it's also vernacular, right? I mean, sometimes we have thoughts that we explain as feelings, so it's, it's a little bit of

Heather: 16:24

I never ever say I think.

Beth: 16:27

I've had that same curious thought as well, and I've kind of paid attention, but then it's really weird when it gets to us, those of us that are in the gut center, because it's not a thought. It's not a feeling. Yeah, it's like this other, but we have, I mean the English language really only allows for thinking and feeling. I mean occasionally people say, why have this gut feeling? But most people don't. I don't know how to accept or receive that information. It's like, well, that sounds kind of sketchy, you know, you don't even know what you're talking about. So all that to be said, I think to say all that to say, I think you're onto something, but because of the English language, I don't think we can quite put it the way it should be. But anyway,

Heather: 17:08

so yeah, you feel, well, yeah, I, I think, I think, I feel that it is. In the realm of feelings with my boys, I definitely was okay sitting with them. It just happened on the drive home. A lot of tears coming out of one of my kids and just, um, not fixing it, but saying, I'm sad with you. That sounds really hard. You have a lot of, you know, sounds like you're really sad. And I, that seems like they're able to express their emotions about things. Um, I think that's the positive side. Yes. Because

Beth: 17:48

I have a quick question. When he's crying, expressing himself, and you're saying those amazing things that so many of us wish everyone else would say when we're sad, you know, instead of just trying to fix us and make us feel better, within myself as a nine who's more in the optimistic spectrum and want people to be happy, I might say that, but really internally I'm calculating to when can I make this person feel better? So I'm just curious from a type four mom, is that easy to do what you just said? And is it natural? And do you feel the inclination to make them happy? Or from a force perspective, are you like, is it just almost like breathing air that you can sit there in those emotions?

Heather: 18:31

I think I'm okay with a lot of the fluctuations. I think in that particular moment, I did start to feel some anger towards what caused him to be sad and wanted to kind of. I had to watch myself and be very careful that I didn't say words that made him the victim. My natural inclination was he's the victim here. I need to that's not okay and kind of take on. If I was in that situation, how victimized I would feel instead of just sitting in the feeling and let it be what it is and not add layers to what it is. Sure. That was hard for me to not, to not, to really just let him have his story with it.

Beth: 19:18

But it sounds like it's really easy for you to say what you said, like, Oh my gosh, that's so sad. That must be hard and kind of just sit there in it. Is that

Heather: 19:26

true?

Beth: 19:26

That's true.

Heather: 19:27

That's taken a little bit more training. We've done a lot of 12 step and processing groups. Okay, good To be trained in in those words. Yeah, so that they're accessible When I want to just be like I can't believe they did that and I you know, yes calling the mom of the kid Yes going on mama bear, but

Bruce: 19:47

yeah, I think everything she does really good is really well is Kind of stopping and enjoying the moment and the experience. And, um, you know, everybody's half birthday is get celebrated except for mine. Right. Mine's right about around Thanksgiving. So everybody forgets. Remember until my annual, my annual birthday. But I think she does a really great job of, of, uh, focusing on an experience. Like. And just making sure that we don't, we stop and smell the roses.

Jeff: 20:19

Yes. And Bruce, where do you shine?

Bruce: 20:22

Um, positivity. Uh huh.

Jeff: 20:25

Yeah.

Bruce: 20:26

Yeah. I, um, yeah, I, I think I, I see the positive sign usually, um, when I don't, it's really bad. When I can't find it, it's, it's really, really ugly, but, um, yeah, I think that's, yeah.

Jeff: 20:42

How do you think you would have handled a similar situation as what Heather faced today in the car?

Bruce: 20:50

That is a good question. Um, I don't think they cry as freely with me, not because I'm dumb approved, but I, it's just probably less familiar. I don't know that I ask the questions necessarily, too, that lead to the tears. And when it probably starts, I probably, you know, reframe and take them a different direction. Yeah. You

Heather: 21:10

would typically make a joke. Or if you're in their presence and you're not driving a car, you would Yeah.

Bruce: 21:21

I don't, I don't think just soaking in their emotions, you know, they would've known what to do with that with me, because I've probably not been able to be that for them.

Jeff: 21:32

I'm just curious, do you cry in front of your kids? Like have the boys seen you cry before?

Bruce: 21:38

I guess not. Cause they make comments about that. I don't really cry that much.

Heather: 21:44

Well, and just I can remember two times. Uh huh. Yeah.

Jeff: 21:48

That's great. You actually named it twice. Wow.

Beth: 21:52

Well, I know two times. I mean, just so that others understand, like for threes, they grew up with this kind of record player message in their mind that would say something similar to, you know, you shouldn't have your own feelings and your own identity. Therefore you need to push your feelings and your true identity to the side and become whatever is the most successful. image or accomplishment, you know, whatever that is for. Your family, your school, your whatever, whatever it is, that's what you need to become. And so threes have become very skilled at pushing aside those feelings, um, and staying productive and positive and, um, yeah, and excelling. Does that sound true for you, Bruce?

Bruce: 22:34

For sure.

Beth: 22:35

We, yeah, go

Bruce: 22:36

ahead. Well, I was, I, we're probably going the same place with this, but our small group about four years ago or so, we started doing the feelings card

Heather: 22:42

with our 12 step. Yeah. Um,

Bruce: 22:45

and that was.

Heather: 22:46

We did an episode on it. If you go to don't mom alone. com and you search Bruce labels, his feelings. I love it. If you're a three and you need help or a male three, he talks about that experience. Well, yeah,

Bruce: 22:59

cause I mean, it, it was for maybe for three, I don't know if this is a three thing or a male thing or what, but. For, for me, it was definitely, I did not have a word or words for how I was feeling.

Beth: 23:10

Yes.

Bruce: 23:11

And I still struggle with that. Heather last weekend, she's like, something's bothering. I'm like, no, no, I'm fine. And it took me two days to be able to figure out what she was saying. And then I told her, she's like, yeah, I've been married with you long enough to where I know when you're sitting on something, but I literally don't.

Heather: 23:30

Yeah,

Bruce: 23:31

and

Heather: 23:31

I think what you liked about the feelings card and you say this in the episode is that on the one we have It has the eight primary and then it has like some what they typically can break down into but then it has what your body does

Bruce: 23:41

Physical manifestation and so like one of them was like in your stomach or your neck Like you like where you literally have a negative and I and I I will get like a tense Like shoulders or neck or stomach. And when I literally looked at those and I started at the physical manifestation and went to the other side, I saw fear and shame. I can't remember which was which and I thought, so back in, I was like, let me think about that. Let me think about those times where those were like real problems. And I was like. Yeah, I was like, that's exactly what it was. As

Jeff: 24:12

you're literally right now holding on to your neck. Yeah, well, I am.

Bruce: 24:17

My neck is fine. It's been a time. But, but, but no, but it was, it was really, it was helpful to kind of in many ways reverse engineer that and look at the physical manifestation in order to feel that this wasn't just some fuzzy thing, but this was actually, there was a physical manifestations to feelings. Yeah. And that's definitely not my nature to understand that.

Heather: 24:39

Yeah, you've done really good work. You've done really good work. I'm very

Jeff: 24:42

proud of you. So the next question is, where do you feel like that you struggle the most as a parent

Heather: 24:57

There was always some method or some, if I'd had Instagram back then. Oh my gosh. I say the same thing. Oh, that says it a lot. I could not have done it. Heather, Heather.

Jeff: 25:09

We were so baby wise. Like you have, we killed baby wise.

Beth: 25:14

See our kids are 21 and 23. So this is back in the day. I

Heather: 25:17

had the baby wise and then the baby whisperer and there was one other one and I'm looking at them and they're saying opposite things and I'm thinking, oh no. There's not a formula, shoot, but I really, I would come to him and I'm like, okay, where we're making a mistake is we need to X, Y, and Z, and I would come in with a new idea all the time. And so everyone says, in order to be a good parent, you just need to be consistent. Oh my goodness, we, we were consistent at being inconsistent. There you go. I was consistent

Jeff: 25:50

in being anxious, so hope that helped you kids. Me too. Nate and Libby, it's all yours now.

Heather: 25:54

Me too. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that that was where it's a challenge of feeling like I'm just missing one little thing. Um, I think. Learning about where you go in health and stress was also helpful that I needed to kind of have a something else in motherhood. So that I didn't just give of myself completely and lose myself in motherhood.

Beth: 26:19

Well, what's interesting is a lot of Enneagram books and things that people listen to, they don't kind of take it this next step that I'm going to talk about. I learned it first from Russ Hudson and some of the work he was doing. presenting is that and what we call it at your Enneagram coach is the blind spot. So the same line that you go in growth at home you can actually access some of the less healthy attributes um, of that same type. So for you normally for the four going to the one Can look, you know, amazing. And so many great aspects of the one is pulling that four into this really great trajectory of growth. But at home, the one can actually come out in some negative ways. Can you see how that might happen at home?

Heather: 27:05

Yes. So my, I was telling y'all before we started recording, my mom, I think is a one. And so I have that inner voice. And then I also definitely am very critical of myself. I mean, it's in my book where Bruce says. Does any mom think she's doing a good job because I would always do the whole diatribe at the end of the day of all the ways I messed up and wouldn't give myself a break and he was like, I think because you care so much, you're doing a great job. Yes. Yeah. The intention. I never, I never counted the intention. I never. Looked at all the things I'd done in that day as wins. I just felt like there's a way I could have done it better and I was missing it.

Beth: 27:46

Well, and if you think about, so you got the four that struggles with the envy. So, and I think all moms are going to struggle with this. Like, like you said, looking at Pinterest or Instagram or blog, mommy blogs, etc. Oh, I'm not doing it right. So, you know, we all kind of struggle with that. But, but, but, you know, for like. Um, at your core, the core weakness is envy and all you're seeing is this barrage of information of how you're missing it. You're missing something like, Oh, you are tragically flawed. You know, that's what the messages are saying. And then in the home, like I'm saying, the blind spot, you also pulling some of the less healthy aspects of one. So that inner critic is jumping on all the things that you made a mistake in that all the blogs or the Instagram posts are saying you didn't do it right. And so you can. I mean, like for me, my heart goes out to you, like, Oh my gosh, I wish I could just like, you know, hug you as that younger mom. Like I see you and I see how much you're struggling and the shame that must well up with, you know, the, the noise from the outside, but also the heaviness on the inside. Is that kind of how it felt?

Heather: 28:52

Yes. Yeah. And I think what I see as a ripple effect of that is. My voice being more critical of themselves or critical of each other. Um, when we got some. Parent coaching from connected families. They said, okay, how about you guys at dinner? Talk about what went? Well And how about if someone makes a mistake you follow the scripture that grace is bigger than whatever You know happened like give each other that or have a do over like something goes wrong and do a do over because there was such a Especially after my mom lived with us for a year, there was just a lot of critical spirit in our home that felt, and still can a lot of times come up when we're not all in good places. And that's why his positivity is so helpful. Yes. That this tone of, it's not okay to make any mistakes.

Jeff: 29:46

Yeah. Well, Bruce, what about you? Where is it that you feel like you struggle as a parent or what do you wish you could improve?

Bruce: 29:58

Thank you for that. You know, it's, um, I have to turn off my, I don't know if I'm turning off my three, but I'm turning off the, the achiever, the need to kind of get things done, I have to turn that off. I can't like just slow it down. It has to be on or off. So for instance, I do the laundry.

Jeff: 30:16

Um,

Bruce: 30:18

Well, I do it for myself and the boys. Heather does her own laundry. She's the one that. I have special detergent, I guess. But, but like we all know, like laundry is not the problem. It's, it's the hard part. It's the folding, right? So I, every, you know, Saturday morning I go and I get all the laundry and I Who knows what's going to happen to him? It's very exciting because it was, it was the first time I saw the whole thing unfolded, right? And I was just sitting there thinking, who's next? I think it's, it's a really big reason to enjoy it. And I think that's a, that's a, it's a, that's a really big reason. It's like, that's a big reason to get your hands on it, because it's like, the, the good news, I mean, you know, it's it's, you Can wear the boys out and heather

Heather: 31:05

a lot like a lot of reminders You keep us on task, but I feel bad that that becomes your job because it's not very connected to be The boss. Sure. You know, people aren't friends with the boss. So, I mean, he's even, he's even like, really efficiently, dinner time, like he, everyone has a role, goals and roles, that was a thing you created. Everyone would sit down and have their goals for the quarter, and then their roles that they played in the house, and so, which part of dinner were you responsible for, which part of the house were you responsible for. Yes. Which is helpful'cause I wouldn't innately think of that structure. I wouldn't do that. And I need it.

Jeff: 31:52

Yeah.

Heather: 31:52

Um, to function well, but I, I, I push against it. Yeah.

Beth: 31:56

Well, here's the, th the funny thing. So as a nine at the home, there'll be more three like things that come out. That's my blind spot, man. I have created so many amazing chore charts. Uh. Uh, McCord, um, Castle Zones, like we're gonna like, we're setting this all up. Okay, you're doing this, you're doing this, and then every week we'll switch, it's gonna be great. And then we even like, I think when our kids were like 10, was like, okay, so again, they're like 23 and 20. Um, so. Like on, uh, the computer, this chore thing finally came out and like they could win all these kind of cool things if they put in their chores and I thought we're going to kill it. Finally, never worked because I won't continue the process. It was a nine, you know, it's like I set it up like a great three would, but I don't have great follow through. And so it always, you don't

Heather: 32:48

want to cause the conflict because they're all like say.

Beth: 32:50

They're so excited about first, like, Oh, this is going to be amazing. We're going to earn points and like toys and all this stuff. And then like a week later, no one cares. And I'm like, I don't want to fight about this. I don't really want to push. So Bruce, you probably are killing it and doing such a great job by having all the zones and, and doing such a great job. He's a good executor. Yes, exactly. Not

Heather: 33:11

executor, like an executionist. Not that. Right, right. I haven't figured out that. No, no, that's not even, you're all close

Jeff: 33:18

to what I'm saying. That would be a character defect in your parenting. Yes. Clearly. Deceit would

Beth: 33:23

be strong in that situation. Yes. Well,

Jeff: 33:26

that does speak to something, because, uh, as it relates to goals and roles, um, one of the questions that we ask is, when your kids are 30, Twenties, it's pretty bumpy, they're trying to find out who they are separate from parents, but when they're 30, uh, Bruce, you can start with you, who, who do you hope or what do you hope your kids, your boys will be whenever they're 30?

Beth: 33:52

Yeah, well, like what are their virtues? And

Jeff: 33:54

maybe how the, the goals and roles are connected to that, like the kind of person they are when they get older.

Bruce: 34:02

Um, I want them to really know who they are and how they're gifted. And I think more than else, I want them to be, um, my hope for them would be that they're. They're living their

Jeff: 34:16

giftedness.

Bruce: 34:16

Um, I don't know if that's your exact question, but I think it really starts from that. And, and, and we, we talk about that a lot, you know, and, you know, each of our boys have different areas of giftedness and, you know, um, really trying to encourage them in that. And I think really that's, that's really where, um, I think I, I start because I feel like if they're have a good sense of who they are and they're, and they're going after those passions, then I think they're going to. have a more healthy lifestyle, they're more likely to have a better spiritual life, a better family life, and a better professional life.

Jeff: 34:52

And, and what do you think, how would you feel if that didn't happen?

Bruce: 35:00

Yeah, I mean, well, as a three, I would, I would feel that I failed.

Jeff: 35:06

Yes. Now if, and I'm assuming there are times that the boys don't come through. And do you often time take the responsibility or feel the responsibility whenever they make mistakes?

Bruce: 35:24

I don't know. Do you think I do?

Heather: 35:26

One of them got on the watch list for grades. Did you take on responsibility for that?

Jeff: 35:31

This was about to get really dark whenever you said put them on the watch list like what? That term means so much now

Heather: 35:38

That is a very strong word for a middle school. Yes. Yes, it is It's one of our

Bruce: 35:44

kids who normally does really good and really well Yeah, really well in school and he kind of took the pedal the foot off the pedal and to be honest He kind of does it him like he does well in school kind of without a lot of

Jeff: 35:53

effort.

Bruce: 35:54

Effort and, and with a lot of effort from us either. And then all of a sudden we get this notification that he was struggling at school.

Heather: 36:00

It's in one subject. I don't feel like we

Bruce: 36:02

overreacted to that. I was just trying to find an example

Heather: 36:04

where you might feel like you needed to, like, own that or. I

Bruce: 36:09

think, I really try to not burden them with that, maybe that expectation of, you know, my expectation of them.

Heather: 36:19

Or like with, with Quade and, we have a high schooler, right? So there's a little bit of.

Jeff: 36:25

Mm hmm.

Heather: 36:26

You know the next big thing for him is getting into college. Yeah, so do you feel ownership over his Journey right now to getting into college.

Bruce: 36:34

I think I Feel that more than i'm communicating that yeah

Jeff: 36:40

Yeah,

Bruce: 36:40

like I I recognize that adding like I think about like what would be helpful What what would it would not have been helpful? As far as an approach to me, if I was getting that back when I was their age. And so that tends to be a filter for me.

Jeff: 36:55

Yeah.

Bruce: 36:55

Um, and I think, frankly, I think the more that's pushed on me, as I think back from a parent, I think the less I would be more likely to benefit from that wisdom. I feel like I'd, I'd benefit more from it if, if I kind of had to learn some of that. So I think we, I think sometimes what I feel I want to say and what I actually say will tend to be. Um, abridged,

Beth: 37:21

a

Bruce: 37:22

more, a more constructive vision casting rather than this, this, this, and this are wrong.

Beth: 37:29

Sure. Yeah.

Jeff: 37:31

So Heather, what about you? The boys are 30.

Heather: 37:35

Yeah. Well, it's funny that he, yeah, he, it's interesting to hear the different answers. Um, cause in my head I was like, well, if I'm thinking real ideal, I do hope that they are. And very happy marriages and, um, loving parents and, uh, you know, I do want them to be in community and serving people well at whatever area that is in their life, you know. their assignments and so I do think of like the whole and I'm thinking, I'm realizing a lot of it is connectedness to other people and to where they are so. Yeah,

Jeff: 38:18

yeah. And what would it mean to you as a mom and to your four heart if they weren't connected to people in their thirties? That they had difficulty in marriage or maybe having babies and occupation, they haven't found clarity on what they want to do.

Beth: 38:39

I'm very sad. I could, I could literally, I could see your countenance change. That would be so hard to watch. I think this is like such a great, like, if we can just pause for a second for the audience to recognize the fours, their emotions. are so vast and deep and real, and their minds can really take them to another place and then they feel that other place. So like I could literally, as Jeff was saying it, watch you imagine this path as if your kids are there and how you, and like you literally embodied it. And so that is such a gift of a four to be able to do that because it allows you to also be with people in their sorrow. and to feel their feelings. So I just kind of wanted people in the audience to hear the specialness of that ability. Even though I know it doesn't necessarily always feel, you know, special. Because here you're envisioning, you know, a trajectory of the potential of your boys going in a direction you don't want. But thank you for You know, just exuding such a beautiful part of the Type 4. welcome.

Jeff: 39:48

You're welcome. You're welcome. One of the dynamics that happen, I'm assuming this happens with other parents, I know it does, but I'm going to give you guys the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes in parenting. Uh, I might initiate something, Beth may initiate something, but the other spouse disagrees, and so we end up dancing about parenting, and we're not actually parenting the child. Like the child's like, hey, can you guys do this another time? I don't need to be here for this. Yeah. But, but I am curious, I mean, uh, now, uh, seeing you both and talking with you about this and asking you the same question and having different responses, um, what is it like for you? How do you relate as a couple whenever there are disagreements about parenting a child?

Beth: 40:44

And what would be the typical things maybe you are different on?

Bruce: 40:49

Well, I think, I think how we approach that has had a very different history. Like, I think maybe one place to start would be back when we had our first and he was a baby. About putting him to bed.

Heather: 41:04

Oh, you know, the whole cry it out situation. Yes. Yes, we do. So our, our first had a lot of reflux. He had a really hard time sleeping for a very long time and. I did not like hearing him cry, and so, and Bruce was totally fine with it. I didn't enjoy it, I just felt like it was necessary. It was necessary to get to the goal.

Beth: 41:30

But even right there, that is such a classic 4 3 thing, because the 3 is like, hey, What is efficient and what is best is this path over here. And it's not that I love to hear my child cry, but the fastest way to get us all to the other side is this path, and we just need to stick to it. Whereas the four feels all the feels of what's going on, you know, and that makes it really challenging. And to be, even as you

Jeff: 41:55

describe it, Beth, I, I feel the ambivalence in my heart from those moments as a father. Like, what do I do now? Mm-Hmm. I, I want to comfort child. But is that going to set us back on them being able to self soothe and sleep through the night? Well, you're sex is coming out. And then all of a sudden you put in, yeah, that's right. There's a whole committee going on right now. Like, well, does God think about all this? Is he disappointed in me or is he even with me? I don't know. And then

Beth: 42:22

you're like, I'm going to go buy several books on Amazon to figure this out. Oh,

Jeff: 42:26

that's the worst. I can't.

Beth: 42:28

Because you know, it's true. It's the worst.

Jeff: 42:31

I would totally have a dozen parenting books on sleeping the next week.

Beth: 42:36

Okay. Back to you guys. That's right.

Jeff: 42:40

Thanks for joining us. We're going to do our thing now. You're having like an

Heather: 42:42

internal moment as we're talking about it. Yeah, no, I, I really think, I mean, that caused major conflict for a little bit because I, I would just look at him and say, I would say it's my baby and I'm going in there. Like I just couldn't. So the one time he did sleep training, uh, I was actually gone for the weekend. Oh, she didn't

Bruce: 43:02

know I was going to be doing sleep training. She was gone. It was my opportunity for, to do crying out. I've never

Jeff: 43:08

heard

Bruce: 43:09

of sleep training.

Beth: 43:12

Poor guy, one, his, his kids are in his twenties and, and. To I don't think you, we didn't really read up on all the things except for that one book. So anyway, so you did sleep training and how did it go?

Bruce: 43:25

Well, I mean, it was now

Heather: 43:27

sleeps.

Bruce: 43:29

Keep in mind at this point, he was like well over a year. I mean, he was, it wasn't like we were trying to get an eight month old. Maybe he had been. Crying when we had

Heather: 43:37

his siblings and you could swaddle them put in a pacifier and they just go to sleep. Yeah Yes. Oh, this is what people were talking about. It wasn't something wrong with us like and now, you know Anyway, there's a lot more to that even of learning about who he is and his wiring and even like his neurology and stuff So well Heather just to pick up on something.

Jeff: 43:59

I mean the fact that you got bigger you raised your arm This is my baby Did you feel like you needed to get big?

Heather: 44:09

Oh, there's a whole thing there. Bruce is four years older than me. Oh, okay. I'm elderly. He's elderly. He was, he was a senior when I was a freshman when we met at college. But there's a part of me that really just let him make the choices, make the decision, be the ultimate voice in our family because of that age gap. Yeah. And. Me being more back and forth and not really confident of what I think, um, or believe about things. And so, I, when I really let, like, when that gut or that heart was just, like, rearing up, it, it was a lot to push through and say no, enough, this really matters to me. And I think our marriage has grown, one, when we started taking walks and it was a more side by side relationship. He was asking for advice on work. I would talk about my work and Our marriage grew a ton during that time, but then even with me having this business and being an author I have self differentiated a lot and Come into my own of what I really think is important, right? But I but when it comes to our kids, I think Sometimes I will feel like there's a really big problem. I'm sensing these two boys are really not getting along and it's very important that we deal with that. And I'm trying to, it's almost like I'm trying to be the neck to turn his attention to it. And, cause he's just going forward, his head is straight and I'm like, no, no, look right here. This is a really big problem. And I think before. His dismissiveness of it made me think well then it maybe it's not a problem And I think I'm learning to kind of own Where I am right and then also trust him when I'm making a bigger deal out of something. That's not a deal

Jeff: 46:04

Well, and you guys are so awesome. I mean one you're able to articulate All the various dynamics that are happening and I, I, I know that that comes as a consequence of doing a lot of work, uh, and walking through some very meaningful and deep conversations. So thank you. Um, even for my kids when we had a season of really profound sorrow. gift I was able to give to my kids is to do my own work. Um, and they saw it and know that it's okay to go to the, those places because you're going to, God's going to do something there. Well, we, so. We've got a lot of questions that we could ask going but I Want to you can choose the last question. Okay, which one you want to answer? So I'm gonna give you four options And you get to choose Number one is this what are your avoid at all cost rules? like this will never happen in our home or

Heather: 47:05

though the rule is What is the rule I would stick to it? That's right. So Beth

Jeff: 47:10

was teased as a child by her brother So there was never an option no matter how much conflict she had to face that Our kids could tease each other at all like immediately stop But okay, number two is are there ever situations where your child embarrasses you? So, like, where your sense of proving your worth as a parent is showing up because your kid's not doing what you want them to do. Number three is, do your children ever give you feedback? And what is that feedback? Um, and if they're not giving you feedback, why? Or the last one is what's your dominant style of, or your preferable style of engaging with your children? Is it teaching, correcting, affirmation, coaching? Is it just being present, physically present? Or whatever that style might be.

Heather: 48:07

So which question sounds, I think, I think I'm going to pick number two because I feel like it really fits with me being a four wing three and him being a three. Okay. Yeah. You can both really different

Jeff: 48:16

questions too. That's perfect. Yeah. I'm

Heather: 48:18

going to pick that one because it really, it also fits with my book a lot. Great.

Jeff: 48:23

Let's do

Heather: 48:23

that. Chapter 1, 2, 3, all about me really working through my kids, separating my kids behavior from my worth as a mom.

Jeff: 48:32

Yes. That is the question.

Heather: 48:34

It was, I'm just saying that was my story. Yes. Like that is literally, my journey as a mom was they can be wrong and I can be okay.

Jeff: 48:44

Well let's be honest, I mean in our 20s when we are differentiating from our parents, we are wrestling with that question that. Am I going to be who I want to be or who my parents need me to be? And so it is if you've not realized that in some ways you are Battling still with your parents in your head when you're parenting then you've got some work to do That's for our audience not necessarily for you guys, but um, well, why don't you explain a little bit more Heather? Like what what is it personally for you?

Heather: 49:13

Uh, I think that it was another layer of performance, you know a layer of Okay, them being good, out in public, tells other people I'm a good mom and then I'm okay. Then I'm feeling good about who I am as a person. Instead of, And that just became increasingly harder to do the more boys I had. The kinds of boys I had. And the fact that there's four. There are four of them and one of me and they are more high energy. Um, you come from a very high energy family. We haven't had diagnoses of attention things, but we probably have some attention things going on. And so there was legitimate. But then when I'm trying to control all that chaos and it's, I ended up having a panic attack and a chicken drive through line because I could no longer pretend. Because I wasn't okay inside. And I was pretending that I was okay on the outside so that I would be approved by others. And that, I just combusted.

Jeff: 50:22

Yes.

Beth: 50:22

Couldn't,

Heather: 50:22

couldn't hold.

Beth: 50:23

That is such a perfect example of a four of the three wing. Seriously, cause like, literally, cause your core is The four to be your most authentic self, like to show the world, this is who I am. I'm proud of who I am. This is what I can offer that's unique and different and special. And yet the three is saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, there are all these rules that we need to hold to so that people see this like glittering image as a mom. And we have to do that first and foremost because people see it or, or the lack thereof. And that's going to devalue us. And you could only hold that for so long. And then the four is just going to burst through and say enough. I have to be me.

Heather: 51:09

Well, you layer on top of that Christianity. Sure. And I was current, I was writing the God centered mom blog, like God centered mom and God centered mom was my podcast. And that had shifted from I'm, you know, I am self centered and child centered and now I want to be God centered to. Everyone thinking, I, I already am the God centered mom, like I figured it. So I was trying to, in my effort, in this appearance of being very faithful and spiritual, hold that in. Yep.

Jeff: 51:45

Well, Bruce, in our few remaining minutes, uh, what's your, uh, dominant or prime or preferable style of engaging with your children? And as examples, do you feel like you're doing a lot of teaching, a lot of correcting? Is it affirmation based? Is it coaching based or, you know, is it just, I am present and available to you?

Bruce: 52:04

I would say it's first and foremost affirmation based. Um, I think, um, that, um, that comes easy to me and I enjoy it and I enjoy, you know, so, so all that, I think number one is, is that I think number two is very much a kind of, uh, begin with the end in mind and really kind of have them, you know, try to. Talk a little bit more forward thinking so rather than talk about like doing something right now. It's more about

Jeff: 52:35

yeah,

Bruce: 52:35

you know where we're going And so I would say those are probably right, but I would say the affirmation is easily the number one. Do you agree?

Heather: 52:43

Yes, I think it is a very big gift to these boys. They have no idea that the dominant father figure in their life is a kind voice in their head. That is a gift for a lifetime that so many people are trying to overcome. In particular, in the relationship with God, they can't imagine a God who is loving and kind and they have you. And my dad was that way. He was very loving and kind and probably what drew me to you as well. It's just your positivity reminded me of my dad.

Beth: 53:13

Well, and it's also a great example of a three with a two wing. So threes are great encouragers, twos are great encouragers, twos are wanting to get in there and connect and help and support. So it sounds like you're very involved with a boy's lives. Uh, your affirmations are, Tuned into them, uh, just instead of just kind of, you know, like a rock skipping on the pond. Um, but then the other really great thing that threes are good at is starting with the end in mind. That is literally what a three does because a three is never going to take on a challenge or a task or a goal or a mission without the end in mind. Because for them, they want to make sure, can I accomplish it? You know, I, they're not just going to. Just, you know, open the door to, you know, a dark room and just go like, okay, I'm going to calculate this. Do I have enough time? Do I have enough resources? Do I have enough skill? And so having the end in mind is really helpful and not everyone can do it like a three. That's just not everyone's superpower. And so to teach your sons how to do that, if they're not threes and you've got four boys, so there's the likelihood of none of them are threes. So you're teaching them a skill that they may not naturally have. So that's a really. really cool thing.

Jeff: 54:26

Hey, you have been a gift. This is, uh, we appreciate just being with you and your willingness to engage. And I think it, uh, you're so insightful in being able to connect with your heart and your parenting and your big story. So thank you so much. And all

Beth: 54:42

the work that you have done in the 22 years to get here, you know, and it does take just as an encouragement. And I think you guys would say the same as an encouragement to those that are new to parenting or in those toddler years. Hang on, keep going, keep learning about yourself, keep growing, it's bumpy, it can be turbulent, it can be rocky, but these are all things that God is using to help us to grow closer to Him, closer to one another, and closer to our kids. Would you guys agree?

Heather: 55:12

Completely. Completely. And talk to other people. We were at dinner the other night with a couple, okay, so they're a 6 and a 7. Uh huh. And we have walked with them. I mean, they've shown up to dinners and said, they just had a fight, you know, we are real, real.

Bruce: 55:26

And they're still working through the fight as they're coming in. Yeah, not over. You know,

Heather: 55:32

she's the six and he's the seven and they were using this analogy of like, well, he's the red shiny balloon and she's the tack who's just coming in and popping it. And she said, well, that's kind of a negative. Let's think of something else. And so they came up and I think it's so fantastic that he's the red shiny balloon and she is the string. And so without him, she would just be a string on the ground and not having any fun. And without her, he would be just floating off in outer space. And so they kind of ground each other. Literally

Beth: 56:03

what we say. So my dad and my mom are the exact same couple type combination. And we literally talk about how he is like this balloon. And she's actually the one holding onto the balloon. But you lift your head up to look at a balloon, right? Or a kite. So your head's up instead of just. Kind of being in the negative, but then my dad literally would fly away without my mom and who knows where he would be. In some like fun fantasy world. He was a

Jeff: 56:31

pediatric allergist and when our son started to wear Costumes but not just for Halloween or four right all every day is a new costume. Yeah, you have four boys, you know

Heather: 56:45

Yeah, we've had those stages. Yeah Just decided I'm

Jeff: 56:48

gonna dress up like spider man and be a doctor for a day and but that It happened and it was a gift to everybody there, but your mom had to ground me like you need to be professional. They're not gonna trust you.

Beth: 57:04

If every day it's a different costume may not work out. Right. Maybe once a year, Bruce. Maybe. I'm, sorry. My dad is Bruce.

Jeff: 57:11

That's right. Yeah, not you, Bruce.

Beth: 57:13

I just realized like you're probably thinking why is she saying my name? Well, thank you guys for coming on our show today. We are just so thrilled to get to know you and hear your story and what God has done in and through your 22 years of marriage, but also your parenting. And I just want to remind everyone out there that Heather's first book, we're so excited about this. This is being released October 12th, and it's called Don't Mom Alone. And boy, do not mom alone, for sure. Like we all think we should do that because we feel shame and guilt and all the things, but please go check out our book. Her podcast has the same name. Check out her podcast, um, and then we'll link all the show notes, um, and everything we talked about there so you can all, uh, check out her book, her podcast, and everything we talked about.

Jeff: 57:59

Well, friends, the kind of conversations that we can have with people is something that you can do as well. And here in a few weeks, we're going to be opening up our new Uh, Enneagram marriage and family coaching certification. And so we hope you'll go and take a look because there's tremendous opportunities to be able to extend God's grace to some very, uh, dear parts of our hearts. And, uh, uh, people need help and, um, we're glad to train people to be able to do that.

Beth: 58:24

But as always, remember that the Enneagram reveals your need for Jesus, not your need to work harder. It's the gospel that transforms us. We'll see you on the next episode.