Jeff: 0:00

Adam, well, welcome to the podcast. Beth and I have been looking forward to talking to you about this work that you've been in for the past several years and are thrilled, thrilled that, um, that we get to have you on the podcast to talk about such an important book. So welcome.

Adam: 0:17

Thank you. It's a delight to be here to see you both. Thank you.

Jeff: 0:22

And, and so we talked a little bit, uh, just before the show, but this is not something that you just wrote overnight. This is something that you've actually been painstakingly, uh, writing over the past number of years. I, what is it, what's it like for you to take personal work, professional work, and then try to put something together that you, I know that you carry a tremendous burden and passion for the sake of others to find healing. But to put that all into a book, that seems like a lot of pressure, but it, I mean, it's a worthy venture because it's been so helpful, uh, even to us already. So what was that process like for you? Okay.

Adam: 1:24

to be introduced to the idea that I had a story and that the symptoms in my life, anxiety, depression, difficulty with relationships, marriage, difficulties, difficulties with God, that all of these symptoms, difficulties, being alone, just with Adam, that these symptoms. may be rooted in my story. And by story, I really mean stories, plural, because all of us have so many stories of things that we experienced between the ages of zero and 18 when we were with our primary caretakers that have significantly affected Uh, the way we see the world, the way we experience the world, particularly the way we relate to the people who are closest to us. So, it was, writing it was a labor of love to my younger self and to, and to all the people that want like a concise, clear, Explanation of what we mean when we invite people into story work.

Jeff: 2:32

Yeah, now you use a word there that I want to help clarify because it's, it's worthy of distinction. The idea of story. A lot of people, they might go see a therapist and therapists have been trained in all kinds of various modalities and using different metaphors and analogy to describe what their processes are. But you're using the term story work. Can you define that for people so that they understand exactly what you mean and how that's different?

Adam: 3:02

Sure. Great question. So if I were to have been asked as a 35 year old man, Hey Adam, what's your story? I would have told like a 30, 000 foot overview of, you know, I grew up in a family of five. I have two twin brothers that are two years younger than me. My dad, uh, was a Vietnam vet. Um, I had some emotional, physical abuse as a kid. I was super close to my mom and I would have been able to put some words. To what I would call my story, but it would have been very high level, very general. And when we talk about story work, what we're really talking about is getting into the particularity of, on the ground level, telling of two, three, four of the formative stories. That you may remember from your growing up years and lots of people have memories or fragments of memories, slices of memories, portions of memories, and they dismiss those as quote unquote, no big deal because the posture is that happened 30 years ago. I don't see how that could still be affecting me today. So, for example, When I was in middle school, I was ruthlessly mocked because a rumor started that I shaved my legs. I didn't have a lot of hair on my legs as a boy. I was later, a late developer in terms of puberty and it was brutal. So I can tell you that story like I just did or I could tell you one of the stories. of when it happened, who did it, where I was, what I felt, what the sensations in my body were, what I did when I went home from school that day after having been humiliated in front of, you know, my classmates. And even now as I'm talking with particularity, You can probably feel the shift in your own body.

Jeff: 5:12

Yes.

Adam: 5:13

When we talk about story work, we're talking about particularity. I'm not talking about, I had an alcoholic father. I'm talking about, it was my 10th birthday. My mother was there, my friend, this is not my story, I'm making this up. My friends were there. My dad got there late and he came home drunk and he humiliated me in front of my friends at my 10 year old birthday party. That's a ground level, that's the beginning of a ground level story, telling of the story with particularity. So story work is about the incidents. It's about the scenes. It's

Jeff: 5:56

Now, one of the things that what you're emphasizing there and so just for our listeners, uh, Adam and I went through some training with Dan Allender back in the

Beth: 6:09

10,

Jeff: 6:10

000 years ago, probably 10 years ago. Um, yeah. And, One of the things that where you were very helpful and at times interpreting what I was experiencing through that training because you had already done so much work regarding the brain. What? Why is it? That when we get into the particulars of story, of retelling a story and getting into the details. And I remember a story that I took to that training and I was walking through a neighborhood, but I only had shorts and a tank top on. And I was being invited to talk. What did the grass feel like on my feet? What did the, you didn't have shoes on. What was it like walking miles in the Texas summer with no shoes on? Like, we were getting very granular on what my experience was like whenever I was that young,

Adam: 7:03

Yes.

Jeff: 7:04

but that's part of the process, the healing process here. What, what's happening uniquely when we're telling specific detailed stories? What's happening in our bodies and brain whenever we're doing those things? Um,

Adam: 7:41

Absolutely, but it also affects our bodies And the nature of trauma is that it causes fragmentation What is fragmentation? It's the separation of regions of your brain from one another and so the brain is a complex system. Complex systems are more stable when they are differentiated and linked both. The nature of the grass under your feet or the hot Texas pavement under your feet, when you experience trauma, the memory of the sensations Of the horrific event, get separated from your thoughts about the event, get separated from your emotions that you experienced in the event, get separated from the timestamp of the autobiographical memory of the event, and all that stuff gets separated. In Christian language, it's the opposite of shalom.

Jeff: 8:42

Okay.

Adam: 8:43

Shalom is about integration. It's about connection. Brains function best when they are high, the neurons in your brain are highly connected with one another. But when we have a traumatic experience. That stuff gets separated, fragmented, disconnected, which is why 30 years later, you might see an expression on your wife's face or a edge in your husband's voice, and you are reacting to that. And you don't know why, and you call it an overreaction, but it's not. You are responding to deep levels of memory in your body that his tone of voice or her facial expression evoked.

Jeff: 9:34

Yeah, well, an interesting story just to illustrate this, to kind of give it, make it real and live. Um, Beth and I were in Florida this week, Cocoa Beach, and People kept recommending to us to go to the Ron Jon surf shop. It's like the second largest Ron Jon surf shop in the United States. I guess there's another one called California. And

Beth: 10:02

which we kind of laughed because if anyone knows

Jeff: 10:05

us, we

Beth: 10:06

both grew up. In the middle of the United States. Nowhere close to anybody in the world. We don't do beach

Jeff: 10:11

life. So we're not,

Beth: 10:12

like, beach goers of any sort of imagination. So we were like, really? Like, you really think we should go? And we're like, alright, we'll go. You know, like, people say it's one of those things you just gotta check off. And I'm like, okay. So we go.

Jeff: 10:24

So we, we walk in, and We're doing this just to say that we did it and we're walking the downstairs is the guy section and we did I was like, hey, those are I need a new swimsuit Which that that had story to it because as our listeners know I had a heart attack I've lost a ton of weight and I'm still in the process of recovering and living in this new body that That would be a cool one. That'd be great. And there's a button, a short sleeved button up that, yeah, that'd be great for you. And I'm like, no, I'm not that kind of guy. I'm not the skater guy. So that gets into all kinds of story work. Well, we, we decided, okay, we got to go upstairs. And so we're going to go look upstairs. Well, we get up the steps and then we take a left. And the first section was bathing suits, women's bathing suits. What happened for you then?

Beth: 11:25

I almost, I instantly kind of said, Why are we here? We don't need to be here. Like there's nothing here for us. Like I was so annoyed. Like, I don't want to be here. This isn't my kind of stuff. Like I was, I was

Jeff: 11:41

agitated and

Beth: 11:41

agitated.

Jeff: 11:42

So like right there, that's what Adam had just said. Like, why are you reacting this way?

Beth: 11:48

Which normally if people say that, then I get more reactive because it's more like. It feels like it's more, uh, why are you, and that goes into other story work.

Adam: 12:01

Yep.

Jeff: 12:01

Okay, we're, yeah, so now she's got memories of people responding to her when something is happening, but they're saying, I mean, what, what was your mom's line? Don't be so dramatic. So Beth's having an experience and as we keep trying to walk around, you're noticing like there were bikinis there, there were crop tops there, like you're picking up on specific. Types of clothing

Beth: 12:33

and getting

Jeff: 12:33

more agitated.

Beth: 12:34

Yeah, but so growing up in kind of the 1980s Christian focus on the family type of Era for my parents you were not not only were you not allowed to wear anything of that sort To even think you might wear something, you were bad. So just to even be around it, it felt like all of, um, that culture was in the room with me,

Adam: 13:08

Yes. Yes.

Beth: 13:10

did not want to participate. Like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to have to, let's say caretake, really, this culture that wasn't even physically there, but I felt responsible. To it in the moment and I didn't, I didn't wanna have to deal with it. I would rather have not been at the store than to have to face that memory.

Jeff: 13:31

And then there's other dynamics to it as well, because there was, it was expensive. There was money involved and, and like,'cause we ended up talking about this mm-hmm Because you don't spend money Yeah. On this kind of stuff. I dunno how to have fun. basically, which was, that's a really big deal because it was a new topic of conversation. Four little younger Beths. is dangerous because there are so many rules from an Evangelical context. Camp culture. Be good. Dress modestly. Boys are over, uh, sexualized. Girls are sexualized.

Beth: 14:14

Just go along to get along. So what does my older brother want to do? What do my parents want to do? Like that's it. Just to make them happy and then you don't go to

Jeff: 14:22

stores like this to buy stuff and have fun Even though there was money in your family. There was still always this don't spend money on yourself Dynamic

Beth: 14:30

don't be selfish. Don't be

Jeff: 14:33

so what what ends up happening is is that for? Three hours?

Beth: 14:39

Maybe not that long, but yeah, at least two hours. I was very dysregulated. We go

Jeff: 14:42

out to dinner to go grab some pizza, which was pretty good, and,

Beth: 14:47

but you're still feeling it. And Jeff's like trying to ask really good questions and my, my logical brain, right, my adult brain could see that, that my husband's wanting to engage in my story, but the, what I would, and you would, I, you'll have to fill this in, because I really, I am interested in your viewpoints on this. What I would say is my avoidant attachment style, at the moment, because we talked earlier about how I go back and forth between avoidant and ambivalent. My avoidant personality, or attachment, was saying, Why is he asking me all these questions? Like I'm about ready. I'm being set up for something. I'm gonna get caught. I'm gonna do something wrong I'm gonna say something wrong and then this is gonna go south and it did It did do that. And then I'm spinning in my mind. See I can't do anything, right? I'm getting it all wrong now. Now he's feeling bad now I'm you know, and it and then I really just went way offline into my trauma response So having complex trauma went into that, and so I'm really dysregulated. Thankfully, Jeff, of course, knowing all that I'm going through and working through and have done his own work, he knew where I was at. He just hung in there. But it definitely took some time for that dysregulation to come back to a, a place where my frontal lobe was able to come back online, and we could actually have An adult conversation versus little Bethy being all dysregulated. So, I'd love to hear. Yeah,

Jeff: 16:26

so Adam, people who are listening, um, they know this kind of experience and they stay quiet about it in their marriages. They're deeply ashamed of it. They don't have any sense of direction, hope, understanding, any interpretive grid to understand what's happening. Tons of shame, tons of powerlessness. So, Beth has used a number of different categories in retelling that story, which are categories that you're using in your book.

Adam: 16:58

Yeah.

Jeff: 16:58

So how is it that your, this paradigm that you're offering to people through your book, how is that, how can that help someone like Beth, who is new and maybe could find hope in doing some story work?

Adam: 17:14

Yes. Uh, well, first of all, thanks for sharing the, that. It's not a vignette. It is a vignette, but it's from your life. But it's not only from your life, it's from your very recent life.

Jeff: 17:30

This was Thursday. Yeah, it's Monday.

Adam: 17:35

that's such a gift to your listeners, just to hear the story gives so many people the sense of, I am not alone. I am not alone. Beth had this experience. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about, I love the categories that you've offered. You found yourself in that surf shop remembering some really unpleasant stuff, but you had no sensation of recall, so you didn't know it was a memory. You just had the bodily sensation of, I don't want to be in the bathing suit area of this surf shop.

Jeff: 18:16

Um,

Adam: 18:43

engages and that engagement alone stirred up even more accusation inside and, and all my heart. I mean, even as you were narrating it, I was just like. Oh, that was a hard couple of hours.

Jeff: 19:03

It was,

Adam: 19:04

That was a hard couple of hours for your body because you were remembering.

Jeff: 19:14

It's interesting the way that you just said that, Adam, that it was not necessarily cognitive nor willful.

Adam: 19:24

No, it was automatic.

Jeff: 19:27

I mean, you've been in these circles, Adam, and you know, like, there is a sense to where it is sometimes communicated, particularly within a Christian worldview, to take a thought captive. And,

Adam: 19:42

right.

Jeff: 19:45

and, and this is where, like, Beth, I know, is part of the, the, the sorrow that she carries is that she wants to turn it off. She wants to catch it quick and not have to suffer for a few hours.

Adam: 19:58

Sure.

Jeff: 20:00

And, but, and, but she doesn't even know that it's happening.

Beth: 20:03

Or where it's coming from or, or how to stop it.

Adam: 20:07

right.

Beth: 20:08

a lot of times, like I said, is when you're trying to engage with me.

Jeff: 20:13

Oh, I am, I am, your body is responding to, you're not even responding to me necessarily. No,

Beth: 20:23

well, I mean, in the past, before I realized I had complex trauma, I thought I was responding to you

Adam: 20:30

Of course.

Beth: 20:31

because you're the, you're right here. But then of course, reading your book, Adam, when you talk about implicit and explicit memory, I was like, Oh man, this is making so much more sense. It's like, I am reacting to Jeff, not because of him, but because of what I went through in the past. But all I can see is that this is my husband in front of me, and so what makes me sad, and I'd love to hear your thought on this, is that I would blame him for what I was feeling in the moment, because that's all I could see or feel or experience. I didn't understand that my story Was actually what was playing a bigger role in that moment. Yeah.

Adam: 21:32

with your husband, and that although I'm sure Jeff was not loving you perfectly, you were very aware that what you were feeling and experiencing from him was being filtered through your past stories as a girl. And that in that sense, you are reacting not merely to Jeff in the present, but to your past experiences of trauma.

Jeff: 21:59

Right.

Adam: 22:00

And that is the nature of intimate relationships for all of us who have trauma.

Jeff: 22:07

us.

Adam: 22:08

All of us. There's no way out of that bind. But, not everyone has the courage that you do to acknowledge it. Because it can feel very vulnerable to acknowledge that. Because you're, you're taking responsibility for your agony that's stored in the cells of your body from years and years ago before you even met Jeff. And you're saying to Jeff, look, I'm feeling this from you, but I'm aware that there are other stories at play, besides what I experience as your cruelty, or your dismissiveness, or your combativeness, or whatever it is. And that is a, uh, the courage, the honesty, the loveliness of that confession. If we entered all of our conflicts, With that awareness, that alone would change the nature of the conflict.

Jeff: 23:11

Well,

Beth: 23:11

it did, like today. It was a great example, and we shared a little bit of this beforehand. I was listening to your book, which I, I had an advanced copy, and so I have Speechify, which is an amazing app for people like me who have a reading disability. So I was listening to your book, as I'm This

Jeff: 23:30

episode is sponsored by Speechify.

Beth: 23:32

Yeah, seriously, if you all It's a game

Jeff: 23:35

saver for Beth. It's,

Beth: 23:36

uh, literally a game, a game saver. But I was listening to it on the way to pick up my parents to help them go to a doctor's appointment. I knew I was setting myself up, but like Jeff said later, no, you were engaging your story. You knew that you were learning about how to engage your story as you went to go engage your story with your parents. And so then when I came home, what's, what's so wonderful is that as Jeff, as we know, you two started your real journeys of recovery about 10 years ago, Jeff has been on this journey and What's been great is that as I've been able to see, oh wait, this isn't about Jeff. This is about the pain and the sorrow that I have not known or been able to recognize or name in the past. And so when I came home, I was very dysregulated and I knew I probably was going to be and Jeff's like, would you like to talk about it? And,

Jeff: 24:41

and some of that, I will say for our listeners, some of the terms that you'll hear Beth use are terms that we have adopted To stay away from other shaming terms. Beth came home upset. That actually could be a very activating way to characterize what's happening in her. And so we've tried to come up with terms that somehow help her give her hope. Like, something's happening inside of me that I don't need to be ashamed about and that I add to freedom to me.

Beth: 25:12

But it's also been helpful because what, so as I, again, Okay. I have a lot of avoidant tendencies. When I got home, I knew that my wonderful loving tender husband would know because he asked me to get him Starbucks. And I was like, I just can't, I'm sorry. You're going to have to make yourself comfortable. I

Jeff: 25:35

felt the text. Yeah.

Beth: 25:37

I knew he would. So when I got home, I knew he would be curious and. He would be there for me if I was willing, and I, I honestly didn't know if I could or wanted to talk about it.

Adam: 25:53

Yep.

Beth: 25:53

I was fearful of my dysregulation, just like it was in my family of origin. They couldn't handle my being upset or frustrated. And so, Whenever I see you not knowing what to do with my dysregulation or it frustrating you or, or a lot of times me blaming you maybe for it or you feeling like I'm blaming you. So I was like, Hey, I am really spun out, triggered, whatever word you want to use. And you were like, would you like to talk about it? And I was really scared. And not because you're a scary person.

Jeff: 26:31

You literally said, I don't feel safe right now.

Beth: 26:33

And I, and I, of course I couched it saying. But that's not because of you. But not because of you. And you said, you don't have to say that. But that was because you've done your own work. And I do appreciate that. But as I sat down and I started explaining what I experienced, what I was going through. Honestly, a lot of my sorrow right now is that I have been unpacking my story and I'm seeing things. That I didn't want to see or recognize or know many years ago, or as a child, and now I see it and can name it, but I don't, it's like, I don't know how to fully yet move through it all. Especially when you know that maybe your family, you know, parents being older are able to go there. And so having to love them, I mean, I love them, you know, they're wonderful, sweet people, and we have a story. And I have a story that I need to unpack and understand how it affects me today. But I don't have the capacity to unpack it really with them. So you allowing me to unpack it today. It was really, really helpful, and I was really afraid because I knew my emotions were huge. And in my family of origin, that was not okay. Unless, unless you're happy. Your emotions are big and happy. That's okay.

Jeff: 28:11

Well, Adam, and this speaks to something that Beth is alluding to. We, we have a lot of reasons why we don't want to engage our stories.

Adam: 28:23

Sure.

Jeff: 28:24

For Beth, it's, I don't know how to talk to my sibling, I don't know, my, my parents are aging.

Beth: 28:32

Well, I'm gonna keep the peace, I'm a nine. And then there's,

Jeff: 28:34

there's, so there's, there's relational reasons. Then there's personal reasons, there's personality reasons, and just as an aside, I wanted to say this, this is why we say that each Enneagram type is like a Sherman Williams paint color. You don't just go to buy a blue, there's a million blues.

Adam: 28:53

Yeah.

Jeff: 28:54

And, and like the particulars of your nineness matter a lot more than just the generic, I'm a nine.

Beth: 29:03

Like your dad being a nine, we're so

Jeff: 29:06

different. So different. So different. And your experience of it. Your story of it is unique to you, so just keep that in mind. But, Adam, I mean, I, that's one of the things that it, it, it feels scary to engage these things. But, and Beth has really, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to feel this way anymore, is what she'll sometimes say to me. What are some of the other phrases that you hear from people of why they don't want to engage their stories?

Adam: 29:35

Oh, yeah. Woo. Um, although it's not articulated this way, Beth said it really well. She said, I didn't want to see what, what was true or I don't want to see. What what was true? That's a big one. I mean, it is very hard for us to acknowledge the truth of the heartache of the devastation of our lives. And every no one escapes being harmed in this world. So even if you grew up. In a family I want listeners to know you don't have to experience trauma to be able to experience the healing power of story work what you need to be willing to do is to look at the truth. of what actually happened for you as a boy or a girl in your particular family. Uh, another reason that people are reluctant to do this work is, um, my parents did the best they could. My parents are alive. My parents, um, I don't want to blame my parents is a common objection that I hear. And we're not talking about blaming anyone. There's a difference between blaming So blaming is a posture. It's a pointed finger. It's a posture of condemnation and naming is this is true.

Jeff: 31:07

Okay.

Adam: 31:11

of my relationship with my mother when I was in third grade. Like naming what was true. Another way of getting at that is it's simply in the, in biblical language, it's coming into the light.

Jeff: 31:24

Um, Silence.

Adam: 31:40

Uh, and it, and it can be very dysregulating and unravelling. It's this sense of, I've heard this a million times, Adam, if I go where you're inviting me to go, I will start crying and I will never stop. Woo, okay. Well, I understand why you're reluctant to go there then, because you believe that if you go there, you will start to heave and wail and sob, and you'll never get up off the floor, and you need to be a wife and a mother and a co worker, etc. And so that's an overwhelming proposition for you. And I get it. I get it. However, if it's the truth that sets us free, Might there be deep redemptive value in looking at some of the core stories of our wounding? There's a passage in Jeremiah, it's in Jeremiah 6, it's repeated in Jeremiah 8, where God gets mad at the leadership of Israel because they dress the wounds of his people as though they were not serious. Peace, peace, everything's fine when everything is not fine. Sadly, many of us do that with our own wounds. We say, peace, peace, that was 30 years ago, I don't think it's still affecting me today. Uh, they did the best they could. Uh, they didn't mean to harm me. Um, I was just overdramatic. And we are dressing the wounds within us as though they are not serious. And in my experience, in my opinion, uh, God longs for us to take our wounds as seriously as God does.

Jeff: 33:30

And one of the things that Beth has mentioned a few times, uh, which is another Aspect of naming that's you as you read through your book that help that is very, very helpful. And that's this idea of attachment styles. And there's all kinds of language, different language for different concepts, different applications of it. I remember, um, you know, hearing about it at first for, um, moms, uh, new moms of newborns, whenever they would, they were talking about attachment and wanting to have baby on skin, that kind of stuff. There was all kinds of, uh, conversation about attachment styles. And you've heard Beth mentioned about being ambivalent or, um, you've mentioned disorganized and avoided. Tell us a little bit about what. What that part of the conversation means and how that's related to story work.

Adam: 34:24

Sure. Your, your attachment style simply refers to the way in which your nervous system has been wired to relate to the people who are closest to you. And so, uh, the essence of what's called avoidant attachment is that you grew up with a dismissive, rejecting, or shaming primary caretaker. And as a result, whenever you expressed emotion or longing, It was dismissed. It was shamed. It was rejected. It was shut down. And by the age of 5, 6, 10, 15, you realize, I'm alone in the world and there is not going to be any interactive regulation of my body and my big feelings. I have to do that by myself. There is no person in my world, mother, father, stepmother, stepfather, who is willing to be with me in my big feelings and help me regulate them. They're not interested in that. And so what you learn is, I've got to regulate my body by myself. I'm on my own. That's avoidant attachment. The essence of what's called ambivalent attachment is that you had a caretaker that was inconsistent and intrusive. By inconsistent, I mean they were there for you one minute. This is my story. I'm an ambivalently attached man. My mother would be there for me lots of times. super there for me until she wasn't because she was too preoccupied with her own trauma, her own feelings, her own needs. And all of a sudden I was utterly alone. And the madness of that uncertainty creates distrust in the nervous system. In other words, I grow up to become an adult and my felt experiences. Are you going to be there for me or not, Jeff, as my close friend? One minute you are, the next minute I don't expect you to be. Why? Because that's how my nervous system has learned the world works. And so, in close relationships, people who are ambivalently attached are often experienced as needy or clingy. Why? Because I need constant reassurance that you're going to be there for me. You did it this morning. Great. But it's this afternoon. Now, in contrast to those two types of attachment, there is secure attachment. And secure attachment is when you have an embodied sense of hope that anytime there's relational rupture, anytime there's conflict, the relationship will be restored. We will become closer through this. It's inevitable and it's going to happen soon. And if listeners are listening to that and they're like, I can't imagine that. Well, then you're not securely attached. And I understand it's hard for me to even imagine that. But all of us can move from insecure attachment styles to increasingly to secure attachment. That's the work of healing.

Jeff: 37:43

so I want

Beth: 37:44

to go there. Okay, so I want to go there. Because I have my own questions about that. So, um, so we talked a little bit before we got on. That some will talk about disorganized, how you can kind of fluctuate between the ambivalent and the avoidant. So I'd love to kind of go there, but I also want to go to what you're saying about that you can heal and find secure attachment. The reason why I want to go there is and what that process looks like, because as you're saying that, I'm like, yes, because as I've been doing my own work and being able to see Jeff. For all that he really is, that I have secure attachment with him, all that I, all that dysregulation was past story. Now, I mean, of course we're married, so obviously there's things that we've had to work on, but, but ultimately he is my secure attachment, but I still felt the insecure attachment struggles But now that I'm starting the healing process, I can, like, when we went to the, the Ron John store, as we were in the car, there's part of my brain that's like, doom and gloom. This is the worst. I can't think of anything else. And yet there's this part of me, this, it's almost like we're watching the show Severance and it feels like my brain has been severed. Like I go into dysregulation and trauma brain.

Adam: 39:15

Yep.

Beth: 39:16

But then it's like I'm reintegrating, I'm so into this show, but it's like I'm reintegrating where I'm like wait, no, I know Jeff and I, we're fine, like he's fine, he's right there with me, he's hanging in there, he's not allowing this dysregulation to throw him off, off pace, I am okay, he loves me. And that, that these little, like, glimmers of hope come in at the moment. I'd love for you to talk about, because, because I still feel at times helpless and hopeless. Like, my story still feels at times like it's going to eat me whole.

Adam: 39:51

Yes.

Beth: 39:53

But then I have these glimpses of hope. And so it's like this back and forth. So can you walk us through that?

Adam: 39:58

Sure. First of all, what you're describing is normal and natural because you have neurons. Jeff is giving you different, and here's the better word, novel. experiences for your nervous system.

Jeff: 40:14

Well, thank you, Adam. Thank you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna put that on my, I'm a novel husband.

Adam: 40:21

so you come home dysregulated from your day. This was two hours ago and you expect your, by expect, I mean, your nervous system has been conditioned and primed to expect Jeff to be disgusted with the fact that you are. Overwhelmed

Jeff: 40:42

Right. Not so much from him, but from past. Yeah.

Adam: 40:45

from past you've your neurons have been primed to expect that the close people in your life are not going to welcome you in this state

Jeff: 40:56

Right.

Adam: 40:57

because you've had thousands experience of experiences of that as a girl where you were called a drama queen where you were cursed and accused and named poorly. But then, you risk letting Jeff know a little bit, even in the way you did the text. You let him know a little bit, I'm not okay. And that risk is, I think, properly named repentance on your part. You're doing something that you, that there's no reason you should do.

Jeff: 41:32

I mean, that, well, I've not thought of it that way, Adam, but she knew that that text was risky because it was an act of self care

Adam: 41:42

yes.

Jeff: 41:43

when she wanted to just care or go into codependency and like, yeah, I'll do whatever. I'll keep giving myself to make you happy. And she said, no. Okay.

Adam: 42:10

that? In my opinion, you have a hunger in your gut for more, for more vitality, for more freedom, for more goodness. And there's, and that's almost unexplainable and inexplicable, but it's beautiful and glorious. And you risk with your husband. Now, do you have experiences with your husband of risking and it going well? Sure. And you're building on those. So the brain changes with novelty and surprise. But there has to be the risk of saying, Jeff, I don't feel safe.

Jeff: 42:49

Um,

Adam: 42:49

I'm not saying that you're an unsafe man, but right now, I'm not feeling safe in my own body, and I'm feeling dysregulated, and I don't know what you're gonna do with me. Like, those sentences are so risky and so holy, and they're giving your brain a different experience of the relational world. That's one of the ways, the key ingredients to the healing process.

Jeff: 43:20

of the dynamic here, and we'll get into another topic that's addressed in the book. So in that moment, um, one, there is just kind of the fight of, I want to stay present with my husband and want to receive his initiative, but my body's not feeling it. And so, so to say. I don't feel safe, but that's not because of you. And I'm not sure I want to talk. Um, I've got another great friend who, this guy has spoken so dearly into my life, he always has privilege to speak into my life, but he will always ask, um, can I share something with you? Before he shares something with me. Um, but it, it's invitational. And so, I've tried to mirror that with Beth. But part of the difficulty where Beth is at now is shame. So, she's, she's identified this attachment style. It feels overwhelming as if, Oh, this is neurological. Is this, like, never going to change? That's part of the negative inner critic belief. But then, she's also wanting to receive in that moment from me. And, so for her it's, the feeling of shame of like, man, even when my husband wants to offer me intimacy and connection, I don't have the capacity to hold that.

Adam: 45:00

Yeah.

Jeff: 45:00

But you speak about kindness and the importance of kindness, not necessarily kindness from other people, kindness towards yourself,

Adam: 45:12

Yep.

Jeff: 45:14

which is, uh, and I, I remember when Allender, uh, Quoted Paul that kindness leads to repentance, and I have used that ever since. And I can't remember, I'm forgetting the artist's name, but he actually wrote a song called Be Kind to Yourself.

Adam: 45:36

Andrew Peterson.

Jeff: 45:37

Yes. I weep at the song every damn time I hear it. Because I am, I, I'm not kind. I, I, I walk now and my walks are, can be wearisome because my hour long walks in the morning can be fierce

Adam: 45:57

Yes.

Jeff: 45:58

of the lack of kindness. How, how is it as a category of how we are to relate to ourself of kindness important in doing story work?

Adam: 46:09

Oh, uh, number one. Top of the list importance. Why? You've already said it well, it's the kindness of God that leads to repentance. Very often, my posture towards Adam when Adam is dysregulated, because that happens to me frequently as an ambivalently attached man, My body gets into similar amped up places that Beth's body was in just two short hours ago. And when my body gets into that place, the question is, Adam, how do you feel about that fact? How do you feel towards the part of you that is scared right now?

Jeff: 46:56

Hi,

Adam: 46:57

What's your posture towards the part of you that's feeling overwhelming shame right now?

Jeff: 47:03

of the

Adam: 47:04

ago, my posture was to say it's unkind was an understatement. I mean, it was just punishing. It was, you shouldn't be afraid you shouldn't, or you should be more mature and shouldn't be dealing with this shame, or you should be more mature. You should have grown more. You're an expert on this. You have a podcast. You should be further along, Adam, and not as affected by that situation or by that person or by that email. And you can hear, in my tone, the accusations.

Jeff: 47:39

Okay. Um,

Adam: 48:17

that, in that moment, we can then ask this question. What does my body need? What does my heart need? And what would kindness to my body and my heart look like in this moment? Just asking that question, not knowing the answer, just asking it, begins to unravel the structures of evil in our lives. And the answer to that question for me might be, I need my wife to put her hand on my heart as I lie down and rest. answer might be, I need to put on the playlist of music that I know soothes my heart. The answer might be, I need to take a 10 minute walk around the block and call a friend that I know understands me well and put some words to what I'm grappling with. In other words, I might need to reach out for care. The, the answer is far less important than asking the question, what does kindness mean? Yes. Look like to my heart and body right now. That's what begins to get us out of the cycles of self contempt.

Jeff: 49:29

Well, I just hearing the way that you phrase that it, it reminds me of those big questions of the Bible, like Jesus, even asking the question, do you want to be healed? Like it, I even asking yourself. Like, because I've asked you that question, what do you need right now, needs to be asked with kindness because you quickly realize you've never known how to take care of yourself.

Adam: 49:58

Yeah.

Jeff: 49:59

And there's, I mean, I, I think about our, the story of our parents, we, we certainly understood how to self medicate and they trained us in those strategies, right? But, but. You know, how often did they ever take us aside when we were spun out to go and coach us through how to process a failure, a mistake?

Adam: 50:26

Yes.

Jeff: 50:27

Um, those aren't skills that we're necessarily taught. Um, and even though we were, we had the Enneagram and I was going through all this training, I mean, we could talk to our kids over and over again of times that we even missed with them. Um, And, you know, which become actually a model of those conversations for them with our grandchildren. Um, it, the, and, you know, it makes me think there was a quote by a missionary once, I don't remember the missionary's name, but Um, the quote that I remembered, it was, Can you strain infinite love? Can you exhaust eternal kindness? And so, to recognize that God's love, His kindness, whatever attribute you want to put in there, is infinite, eternal, and unchangeable. Always

Adam: 51:27

Yes. And always available. But will I join it particularly when I am in need? Like Beth was two hours ago. Will I join it in those moments?

Jeff: 51:41

right.

Beth: 51:43

And I will say, for me, those are the moments. I isolate

Adam: 51:49

Yes. Yes. And that's the nature of the byproduct of trauma, is that we tend to isolate in those precise moments when we're most in need of care.

Jeff: 52:05

Well, I don't, I mean, so I know that we've been kind of leading the conversation and kind of through our own experience, but what else about the book that, what's something that maybe we haven't covered that you'd want to make sure that you highlight about how this particular work can be helpful for people? So

Adam: 52:32

um, some words, some guidance, a path. To exploring their own stories and so the book is laid out, you know, your family. What if you explored your family of origin story? What if you explored your sexual story? We're all sexual beings and we all have stories of the development of our sexuality. And for many of us, those stories have been unmind because there's so much shame there. But you you So much presumption, but your story matters to God. And if it matters to God, will you let it matter to you? And if it matters to you, will you write down one or two or three? Of the pivotal stories that you remember from your growing up years. So there's your family of origin story. There's your sexual story. There's the story that your body is telling you. I have a whole chapter on that. We are, we, especially of us evangelical types, we have to come to terms with the fact that we're embodied creatures. We are bodies.

Jeff: 53:47

We really don't quite grasp how significant our body is. It's almost, we are. I mean, there's various forms of this and whether it be Gnosticism or certain theological traditions that de emphasize the bodily parts of who we are as human beings.

Beth: 54:09

When you were, before we got on the show, you were talking about one of the chapters in your book, Adam, is about race and story of your own race. Um, and for Jeff, you know, what's interesting is being adopted, he didn't know his race. You know, until, until we were given the privilege of meeting his biological mom when he was 30 to find out, you know, that you are half Mexican, a fourth Cherokee, and a fourth English, and how that plays a huge role in your story, one, because of racism when you were younger, but also now for your health, you know, with the diabetes and everything, you know, there's so much that plays into Jeff's story just on the racism. And yeah.

Jeff: 54:55

When Adam was talking about sexuality and body. One of the things that's been interesting, and I think you experienced this about me as well, is since I was a kid, people have always reflected back how strong I am. And there were other boys that envied that. Oh, if I were If I was as strong as Jeff, I'd be working out more. Jeff is lazy because he's not working out more and yet he's so strong or being overweight and. Like I, I remember in college football, my, um, body fat percentage could, it never got below like 12 or 13%, but there are guys on the team that were in the single digits and there, there was envy of that. Now, I could also go over to the bench press and bench press over 400 pounds. So there's something like it. But there was ambivalence towards this body.

Adam: 56:05

Yes.

Jeff: 56:06

after my heart attack, one of the things that came out was how quickly my body responded. Beth and I have talked about this repeatedly where I never got an infection. I never had a reaction to medication. And my body responded when I walked and I pressed it with weights and started to take care of it again. It responded in kind in how grateful I was that my body responded. responded because that's not always given. But there are beliefs, there are experiences, like even Beth is like, yeah, you, that's right. Like you never got an infection. You never had a blood clot. You know, there was no reactions to a medication that you had never, that you had taken. And it, it's just a part of being married to Jeff and being married to his body. So all of that, I mean, it's shocking to think of it, but you bring up the race part too, because it, I remember sitting with a diabetic specialist. One of the criteria of determining your, um, inclination towards or possibility of getting diabetes is higher if you're of Hispanic origin.

Adam: 57:21

Right.

Jeff: 57:23

But I grew up with very white, Texas, Caucasian family. And so there's part of me that's like, well, that's not me. And then there's another part of me. It's like, oh no, that is me. I just, and I carry that with me and I look at my family, my biological family history. And I'm like, yeah, this was. all predictable because they were experiencing all of these things. And so I, in some sense, I'm, I'm, I kind of, in, when I found out that many of them struggled with the same illnesses that I do related to the heart and the diabetic diagnosis, I had to grieve

Adam: 58:03

Yes.

Jeff: 58:04

and feel the sorrow and the weight of what my body has been carrying.

Adam: 58:09

Yes.

Jeff: 58:10

That I wasn't even aware of cognitively. And so I, you know, whenever I get up to walk now, it's, it's kind of, there's a certain sense, like we're, we're, we're in this together. I'm choosing kindness and care by going on a walk.

Beth: 58:25

Even on a day like today when it's 20 degrees.

Jeff: 58:28

He

Beth: 58:30

even said he was so cold afterwards. It's like, I was wearing gloves when I was trying to work at the computer. I

Jeff: 58:35

couldn't, I couldn't, my body wouldn't come back.

Beth: 58:38

And I might as well close. Um, you know, there's, like you said, everyone has a story, you know, like I really did grow up in a pretty dynamic family and I have a story,

Adam: 58:50

Yep,

Beth: 58:50

um, and I have pain. So, there's going to be a lot of people listening that are like, wow, this makes sense, or maybe I need to step into my own story work, but it's a big deal. And it's a

Adam: 59:04

deal.

Beth: 59:05

And it's not easy. Where, I mean, and your book is great. So definitely get Adam's book, 100%. How else can they start doing their story work? Where can, where should they go? What should they do? Give them some ideas.

Adam: 59:21

Sure. Two places I know. One is where I met your husband, Jeff, which was at the Allender Center. The Allender Center runs story workshops, which are four day experiences where you bring a story that you write out and it's engaged by a wise, trained guide. Um, and you, and that's a baptism into this work. Um, the Allender center dot org is the place you can go. The Allender center dot org. Um, another person that's doing work in this area is Kurt Thompson. And he has, um, confession, what they are called confessional communities where you can begin to explore your story, um, in some depth for those people that are like, Hey, I, I have a story and I want to explore it more deeply. Um, if you can afford it, there are lots of therapists or story work coaches that are trained in this work that will walk with you into the details of your story. And again, you can go to the allendercenter. org, they have a find a therapist button for all the people that have been trained in this. You can go to my website adamyoungcounseling. com and I have a list of therapists that have been trained in this. But there are increasingly places where you can go and get trauma informed story work care.

Beth: 1:00:53

Well, and also, if I can just say, also, Adam, your podcast, if you can

Adam: 1:00:58

And my podcast! Yes, my podcast! It's called The Place We Find Ourselves, and if you go back You know, there's like 150 plus episodes now, but go back to the beginning and listen to especially the ones that grab you, the titles that grab you. And you can also listen to, I interview lots of people on the podcast and they share a story that they've written. There's probably over 30 episodes where some very courageous volunteer comes on, reads one of their family of origin stories, and then we engage it together. And that's all available for you to listen to so that you can get a sense of what does it look like to tell a story and to engage your story.

Jeff: 1:01:43

I, I'm mindful at the beginning of the recovery meeting I attend, uh, they all, we always had this part of the reading that says, if you'll come to six consecutive meetings, you'll start to come out of denial. And memories will return and realize you may think it's too overwhelming. There are going to be all kinds of beliefs. Uh, I, I can't say the truth about my story because my family doesn't allow me to name the truth about my story. And even though they may not be physically present, they kind of, the rule. leads your life still. So realize that it is, there is patience, there's perseverance. I do wonder, you know, Adam, when you think about for some who might want to just grab the book and start writing out stories, what are some encouragements there? And then maybe what are some cautions to give people if they were to try to do this alone with your book? Um,

Adam: 1:03:02

kind of labor, like you can't do this work alone. You can do some of it alone, but we need each other to be named well in the context of our stories. So we need other faces and other voices to hear our stories. I couldn't see Adam, the 10 year old Adam, 15 year old Adam well until there were other people who heard me tell some of his stories. And then they said, Adam, this is what I see in your story. And it was like, Oh, I arrived at a truth through the experiences, reflections, faces, tones of voice of others who heard my stories. And so a word of caution would be, you can do some of this work by yourself, but you need other people. We all do.

Jeff: 1:04:00

It's shocking to me. I mean, I, whenever I write a story down, a memory down versus when I share it with another person. other person,

Adam: 1:04:10

Oh yeah,

Jeff: 1:04:11

which, which speaks to where, where the memory and the healing needs to take place, like these happened physically and embodied and need to be healed physically and embodied. Uh, and so why it's not just a head game of just remembering, but it's actually experiencing healing relationships and letting our humanity be in, in full expression in that sense.

Beth: 1:04:39

Well, Adam, how can people, again, engage with your work? Let's start with your book, and then, uh, social media places, uh, email, and then maybe your website.

Adam: 1:04:51

sure. The book's coming out March 4th. It's called make sense of your story. You can get it anywhere books are sold. Um, the podcast that I host is called the place we find ourselves podcast. It's available on all platforms and Instagram is at Adam young counseling. And my website is Adam young counseling. com.

Beth: 1:05:13

Great. Well, I cannot recommend more, your book, to everyone, and I just, You know, just even from an immigrant perspective, I hope that people will engage with your book. From the lens of their Enneagram type because that's going to be very informative and also Just to let people know that they may not know that we've done podcasts before we're around trauma and type and I really recommend people listening to that if they're gonna do some story work because we really unpacked how each type Kind of processes and goes through their own sense of trauma and it's very very helpful And I think that's where a lot of our shame can come from, you know for me as a type 9, you know I'm like, oh, I've got to just bottle it all up and make everyone happy when oh, that's like the very thing That's causing it to keep festering inside so everyone realize that your story in your any room tide play a role together and Unpacking that is so important Um, well, Adam, it has been an absolute joy and a delight to have you with us again. Um, I know that we're going to definitely have you back on our podcast because we just love talking with you. But thank you for taking the time just to be with us. But more importantly, thank you for taking the time to write this. Even if it's just for me, it meant the world to read your book. Thank you so much. And

Jeff: 1:06:42

Adam, thank you. You. You were a gift to me during those training times, and I, I can't express to you how meaningful it is that you are a gift again, um, with Beth in this season, um, six months ago. I, I don't think she would have been able to read your book, but she has. She's taken back terrain, uh, in her heart and, uh, it's been a real gift. And so you have spurred that on once again. So thank you. Thank you. You've been a very healing presence in our lives.

Adam: 1:07:16

you're welcome. Thank you for having me on your podcast. I enjoyed our conversation immensely.